legolas is... what age? [Archive] - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Galorme

09-14-2002, 01:35 AM

I may well be shot down from you hard core people who know something more about this, but i have always like to think that Legolas is the same Elf of the House of the Leaf that lead the Survivors of Gondolin. The reason I think of this is that yourfriendandmine Tolkein wrote so much about Glorfindel, about how is he the same person as the one in the LoTRs. During this time he must have re-read the Fall of Gondolin, and how could he not have noticed Legolas there. Yet he never mentioned any problems (i dont think). I think he thought "Glorfinel died, but Legolas lived, hmmm well there is no incostistancy with Legolas". Also he was nightsighted and Far-sighted
and even the name, House of the Leaf sounds very, very like Mr Greenleaf. There is no incosistancy, and this would make Legolas at least 6337 years (the total time between the end of the First and Third ages, am i right? No wait, arg, add to that the time between the Akallabéth and the Last Alliance, which cant be more than a hundred years, if that) Also his father is a survivor of Doriath was he not, so it would be a little odd to wait an entire age for a child?
So my Theory is that Legolas came to Gondolin seeking sheltor after the fall of Doriath. There is the slight problem that would Legolas like to be in a big city in the mountains away from the trees? Then the times were hard and beggars cant be choosers, plus i think he would have loved the company of the Noldor.

Also question: Did Legolas start off with a predudice towards Dwarves? Cause he isn't very nice to Gimili until they become friends, and the predudice could well have come from Meaglin, being a very dwarf-like elf because of his upbringing(DWARROW-ELVES!). I am not saying this is necicarily exactly what Tolkein intended when he wrote the book, but he didn't intend Glorfindel's history either and that is still valid and v. v. cool.

Anyway do i get flamed now? Or could i be right?

Dimaldaeon

09-14-2002, 05:13 AM

I thought that the Greenleaf family's mistrust of Dwarves came from the Sack of Menegroth.

Galorme

09-14-2002, 06:18 AM

LOL i cant believe i missed that i admit i failed miserably to see that, especially when i had just talked about how Legolas fleed from the fall smilies/rolleyes.gif

LadyElbereth

09-14-2002, 09:10 AM

lol, i was just about to post this topic but i guess Naurlothwen beat me to it.
Anyway, i always thought Legolas was one of the younger elves, but what Galorme is saying kinda makes sense. while we're on the topic of age, how old is Arwen? if my calculations are correct she should be around 2,777 yearsold when the Fellowship was created, but i might be wrong, could anyone confirm this for me?

burrahobbit

09-14-2002, 11:11 AM

There is no incosistancy

Yeah there is. Legolas was Thranduil's son. Thranduil was Sindarin, Gondolin was filled with a bunch of Noldor. Legolas of Gondolin is not Legolas of Mirkwood. It's like the Jimmy that sits next to you in English isn't the same as the Jimmy that sits next to you in Physics. Though I do realize that Elves didn't use the same name twice. Tolkien messed up about that.

Tar Elenion

09-14-2002, 12:10 PM

The Legolas of Gondolin was a Gnome (Noldo), Legolas of Mirkwood was Sindarin.
Elves do reuse names (Rumil of Aman, Rumil of Lorien for example, there are others as well).

Dwarin Thunderhammer

09-14-2002, 01:05 PM

Galorme, that's a very interesting theory. But it is most likely not true. The fact is we do not know. Tolkien never told us it's that simple.

The prejudice between dwarves and elves came from the war on beleriand. The Elf King Thingol asked the Dwarves to put the Silmaril in a necklace. When he refused to pay them the dwarves sacked menegroth. The elves resented the sack. The dwarves resented the fact that they were never rewarded for their work.

[ September 14, 2002: Message edited by: Dwarin Thunderhammer ]

Frodo Baggins

09-14-2002, 02:29 PM

Legolas said he felt almost young in Fangorn and describes the rest of the fellowship (minus Gandalf) ans children. (Pippin must have seemed infantile). He's probably realllly old. His father lived with Thingol and Melian after all.

Galorme

09-14-2002, 03:39 PM

Just checking- but was it not said somewhere that the hidden city's numbers swelled from the fugative elves? Could Legolas be amoungst these. This has long ago left whether or not tolkein intended it, but is it possible? I supose it leaves quite a mistery, how did Legolas end up in Gondolin? What was he doing there? Hmm fanfic anyone?

GreatWarg

09-14-2002, 03:57 PM

Where did it say Thranduil dwelt with Thingol and Melian? I do not remember reading that. In fact, I believed Thranduil was still young when Oropher (his father) was in the Last Alliance. (Or am I wrong about that?) I also believed that Elrond was older than Legolas. Elrond was born in the First Age, before the third and last Kinslaying and the defeat of Morgoth. I mean, please, Elrond and Elros were taken captive by the Sons of Feanor! It does say somewhere the exact year of Elrond's birth in the Silmarillion.

Legolas Greenleaf of Mirkwood was a different Legolas from the one in Gondolin. Elves often re-use names, and Numenorean names also were Elvish. Such as Denethor the Elf-lord who was killed by Morgoth's forces in the First Age, and the Denethor the Steward of Gondor. There is also a Haldir whom was a Lord of Men in the First Age. I do not think Tolkien made a mistake in re-using these names, but he might have been pointing out that Men and Elves once held themselves akin when Man wandered into Beleriand.

Birdland

09-14-2002, 04:08 PM

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and side with Michael Martinez on this one. For an interesting take on Legolas, read "Speaking of Legolas..." (http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/36517). Martinez make the argument that Gimli's buddy was a relative young'n in Elvish terms.

I like to think, too, that Legolas was born around the time that Sauron reappeared in Dol Guldur as the Necromancer and the Watchful Peace ended. That would make Legolas about 550-some years old at the time of the War of the Rings. In other words: he's just a baby!

Eol

09-14-2002, 10:29 PM

Birdland's estimate is very close. I read somewhere that you can infer Lego's age by his behavior. His curiousity and recklessness is characteristic of a very young elf then a mature one. I figure is between the age of Three hundred- to five hundred, no older.

Thranduril was his father, hence the age cannot be reversed, it would not make sense.

Thengise Greenleaf of Mirkwood

09-14-2002, 11:00 PM

Yes, but he cannot be that young. In the appendexes of the Return of the King i read that an elf looks a year older after 144 years even thought they are immortal. So if Legolas was arond 3-5hundred years old he should only appear to be 3-4 years old. The movie guide said he was 2,931 which i find more believable because if you divided that by 144 he should appear to be around 20, which he does.

burrahobbit

09-14-2002, 11:05 PM

In the appendexes of the Return of the King i read that an elf looks a year older after 144 years

No you didn't. Look again. Then if you are still confused, do a seach here for "elven years".

Childlike Empress

09-14-2002, 11:58 PM

Because that is the nature of screamingfangirls. Simple as it sounds smilies/smile.gif

Dwarin Thunderhammer

09-15-2002, 12:06 AM

15 year old girls don't scream for him they scream for orlando bloom. He's just an actor. Other than fanfic and certain RPG's you don't see girls running after Legolas do you?

elengil

09-15-2002, 12:37 AM

Hey, if *I* lived in Middle-Earth I'd take Legolas over Orlando Bloom... unfortunately I just live on normal earth.. so i'm stuck with plain ol mortals with short hair and rounded ears.

Thengise Greenleaf of Mirkwood

09-15-2002, 12:42 AM

I'm with you elengil!!!!

Losthuniel

09-15-2002, 07:04 AM

Also, If Legolas was old, he would be wise. He doesn't act very wise, now does he?

Eol

09-15-2002, 10:22 AM

Thank you Lost! There is a certain maturity that comes with age, and Legolas does nothave it.

However in the movie, they made legolas into something he was not. In the book he was kinda prissy, great shooter, did not talk much.

Movie wise, well they made him into the strong, silent type.....tweeking characters is not cool.

burrahobbit

09-15-2002, 11:10 AM

Being somber is not the same as being wise. It is perfectly acceptable to be wise and silly at the same time, note Gandalf's smoke rings. On another note, Legolas isn't "prissy" in any way. He shot an arrow straight up into the air really high and killed something, that takes large amounts of Man Power® to pull off. Legolas is a stud.

VanimaEdhel

09-15-2002, 05:00 PM

Amen to that, burra!

As they all said: the age was not known, they made it up for the movie, blah, blah, blah...

But: I'm willing to live with the made-up age that they had in the movie (do they ever make reference to his age in any stage of TTT or RotK, the movies?): it's good enough for me...

elengil

09-15-2002, 05:00 PM

Um.. yeah.. what exactly is it that Legolas does that you all deem to be unwise???

He's wise beyond the grasp of mortal man. His sorrow may be greater but so is his joy. He understands the severity of the journey they are on, but to him it is also one more long battle against Sauron to be faught, and there were still elves alive who remembered the last battle faught with him. He is probably one of the few of the fellowship who truly *does* understand what the deepest meaning of their journey are. The hobbits certainly dont grasp the severity, not even Frodo though he is MUCH closer to it than the others. And Boromir didnt truly understand the power of the Ring. Aragorn and Gandalf are probably the only ones along with Legolas who truly understand what their journey means.

burrahobbit

09-16-2002, 12:21 AM

He's wise beyond the grasp of mortal man.

I'm going to have to disagree there, too. He was certainly much more wise than your average man, but he wasn't particularly wise as Elves go. Legolas is Joe Average of the Elf world, I would wager. But Elves have many superlative qualites that Men might desire (and Men have others that Elves might desire).

But anyway, Legolas was wiser than Boromir, but I don't know if he was wiser than Aragorn. If Legolas was wiser, Aragorn was close.

And to stay on topic, Legolas's age is indeterminate.

*Varda*

09-16-2002, 10:26 AM

Does anyone happen to know when Thranduil married? If he hadn't married until sometime in the 2nd Age, Legolas could still be in the region of 3000 years old, if he had older brothers and sisters etc.

For me, I personally see Legolas as being somewhere between 2000 --> 4000. Any older or younger and it just seems weird.

the phantom

09-17-2002, 12:16 PM

Burrahobbit is right, elves are not known to reuse names, but I also like Galorme's theory. Bear with me now.
Remember, when Turgon and his people began the pilgrimage from Neverast to Gondolin, it was said that he had a greater following of Sindar than his own people. If Thranduil was indeed around at that time in Doriath or around there anyway, it is entirely possible that he was one of the Sindar that went with Turgon to Gondolin at the beginning, and Legolas was born there. Or, perhaps Legolas was already born and he himself went to Gondolin.
This would explain his quick recognition of the balrog, and also his less than amiable nature towards dwarves, since they attacked his people in Menegroth, where perhaps his father lived.
I'm sure Legolas had heard from Thranduil hundreds of times throughout the years "Did I ever tell you about when those filthy dwarves sacked our home?"
"Yes, dad, you told me that just last millenia."
Anyway, I never imagined Legolas being that old, but I don't think we can rule out the possibility, not yet anyway.
Plus, in the books, I don't think it ever said how old Legolas looked, or appeared to be. Maybe Tolkien imagined him being older, and would've been very disappointed with the choice of Orlando Bloom, because he was too young.
In Fangorn, Legolas said he almost felt young. Well, if he was indeed born in the third age, you'd think he would've definitely felt young! If he was born in the third age, he'd feel young every time he was around other elves! It wouldn't be such a novel experience for him to feel young!
Anyway, that's my two cents.

Tar Elenion

09-17-2002, 06:42 PM

-------
Phantom wrote:
QUOTE:
Burrahobbit is right, elves are not known to reuse names,
-----------

Wrong. Elves are known to reuse names. Rumil was the name of an Elf in Aman, and the name of an Elf in Lorien. JRRT said Telperimpaur "was a frequent name among the Teleri". There are other examples.

---------
QUOTE:
Remember, when Turgon and his people began the pilgrimage from Neverast to Gondolin, it was said that he had a greater following of Sindar than his own people. If Thranduil was indeed around at that time in Doriath or around there anyway, it is entirely possible that he was one of the Sindar that went with Turgon to Gondolin at the beginning, and Legolas was born there.
-------------

No it is not. The Sindar of Nevrast were not the Sindar of Doriath. Turgon only took the Sindar of Nevrast with him.
As written Legolas of Gondolin is a Noldo (Gnome/Noldoli). Legolas of LotR is not a Noldo.

-----------
QUOTE:
In Fangorn, Legolas said he almost felt young. Well, if he was indeed born in the third age, you'd think he would've definitely felt young! If he was born in the third age, he'd feel young every time he was around other elves! It wouldn't be such a novel experience for him to feel young!
Anyway, that's my two cents.
--------------

Legolas is not familiar with Eregion or the area around Lorien which his father and grandfather had both travelled through and dwelt in. If Legolas were so old then he would have been there with his father and grandfather. Also telling is that he had not met Celeborn and Galadriel.

lindil

09-17-2002, 09:08 PM

Hey folks, Tar Elenion is right [ as usual] There is absolutely no way that the 2 legolai are one.

and all speculations to his age are based on more or less accurate and/or plausible inferences. again, T-E's points are relevant.

The movie guides arbitrary age is just that, it has no greater canonical authority than any one else's.

As a personal opine, Legolas acts like I would expect a man prince in his early 20's. Elf wise I would be inclined to place him at less than 1,000 yrs.

but that is pure and useless speculation on my part.

Tar Elenion

09-17-2002, 09:33 PM

My own opinion on his age is that he was born after Thranduil established his fortess and halls which happened a time after the Shadow came upon Mirkwood (ca 1050). I would imagine Thraduils 'retreat' north to take place of a couple hundred years and Legolas to be born 1500-1600 TA. But that is purely speculative.

elengil

09-17-2002, 11:16 PM

I have heard the theory that the reason Legolas' name is Sindari and not Quenyan is because he was born after Thranduil established his kingdom in Mirkwood (as mentioned above) and so he was given a name in the language of the Sindar elves there, rather than the high tongue.

Birdland

09-18-2002, 12:52 AM

Speculation is fun!

As for Legolas' numerous vague references to how old he is compared to the others in the Fellowship: me "thinks he doth protest too much". It's like a kid bragging to his younger followers about how much more he has seen and done.

You never hear Elrond or Galadriel making such blatant references to their age. They don't need to. Everyone knows they's OLD!

[ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

HerenIstarion

09-19-2002, 01:43 AM

Birdland, very true point. When I am in a society of teenagers, I may boast how old I am just to impress them or underline the difference or whatnot. But in fact one of the reasons is I'm not much older myself.

LadyElbereth

09-19-2002, 07:22 AM

To quote Legolas in Fangorn,"..I feel young again, as I have not felt since I journeyed with you children..."
ok, I think Legolas is actually pretty young, and like Birdland said, he was just kind of bragging. But I can't blame Legolas for saying that, I mean if I were a couple hundred years older than everyone else in the Fellowship (no matter how young I look and feel) I'd be happy to find something that was older than myself and tell everyone about it!
~LadyElbereth

[ September 20, 2002: Message edited by: LadyElbereth ]

Galorme

09-19-2002, 03:13 PM

Just saying it never does say Legolas of Gondolin is an Gnome, and I would like it if someone would at least concede that there is not much in the way or evidence to disprove that the Legolai (i love that word now) are one. As far as i can tell most of it is circumstantial, that he acts young, hasn't seen Lorien, pretends to be old etc.

Anyway here is something cool if they are not the same or if they are the same. In the book of lost tales it is said that he (whoever he is) went to live on the lonely isle, and that Rumil wrote more about him, which means he probably talked with him. Remember that Legolas sung about the Lonely Isle. So they may well have met there, and compared stories and tales and stuff.

Anyway i believe that Legolas is the same person. They may be in totally different stories, in different ages, in different places, and maybe on different timelines, but they are the same person. What little I have heard about the elf of Gondolin (his far sightedness, his love of Eressëa, even his full name is the same) matches the much greater knowledge I have of Legolas of Mirkwood. In JRRT’s mind they were the same, and the gnome/gnome wannabe just happened to be created at the wrong time of JRRT’s life, but he later came into being in a staring part he can play to perfection. I think that this fact along is enough to ignoor the inconstancies of the text to unite this lost fragment of Legolas to his later form.

As for seeming young, I have already argued in these forums before that when elves get older, they stop worrying and being sombre, and start to laugh, and sign, and see wondering in everything. I believe that Aman would be very much Faërieland, full of childlike elves who have long ago given up the worries of the world. Legolas, after 6000 odd years, had started this process.

I admit this is probably just me just clinging onto something I find really cool and don’t really want to give up.

Tar Elenion

09-19-2002, 06:01 PM

--------------
Galorme wrote:
Just saying it never does say Legolas of Gondolin is an Gnome, and I would like it if someone would at least concede that there is not much in the way or evidence to disprove that the Legolai (i love that word now) are one.
--------------

"It" does say that. Legolas of Gondolin is from the 'Fall of Gondolin' in BoLT 2. There were no Sindar in Gondolin when that story was written. In fact there were no Sindar whatsoever when that story was written. The Sindar had yet to be invented. When that story was written only Gnomes (Noldoli) dwelt in Gondolin: "Know then that the Gondothlim were the kin of the Noldoli who alone escaped Melko's power when at the Battle of Unnumbered Tears he slew and enslaved their folk...".
What there is nothing of is any evidence whatsoever circumstantial or otherwise to prove that the two Legolas' are the same.

novbarwen greenleaf

09-20-2002, 03:07 AM

Has anyone heard of this wrathful comment of Legolas?

'He was tall as a young tree, lithe, immensely strong, able swiftly to draw a great war-bow and shoot down a Nazgul, endowed with the tremendous vitality of Elvish bodies, so hard and resistant to hurt that he went only in light shoes over rock or through snow, the most tireless of all the Fellowship.'

Galorme

09-20-2002, 08:59 AM

I'm not saying that JRRT decided that he Legolas was going to go on to be in the fellowship in the 1930s when he wrote the book, but i would guess that Legolas, in some form, appeared in the Fall of Gondolin, and he then appeared again in the LoTRs. While the stories don’t exactly fit together perfectly, this is not unusual of a Lost Tale. I think that if JRRT had come to re-write the Fall he would have included Legolas in some (equally cryptic) way.

What there is nothing of is any evidence whatsoever circumstantial or otherwise to prove that the two Legolas' are the same.

For starters it is not Legolas', its Legolai. I think that the evidence is that
1) They have the same name (Including Surname).
2) They are both associated with Trees (house of the leaf?),
3) They both withdraw the Lonely Isle
4) They are both night-sighted.
5) The main piece of (still circumstantial) evidence is that when JRRT re-read the Fall he saw Glorfindel's name and thought "damn I have used the same name", and he never commented on Legolas being there, even though Legolas has a much larger part in the LoTRs than Glorfindel.

I seem to have started another Balrog debate, though now its much more me against the forum.

*Varda*

09-20-2002, 09:38 AM

Galorme, their surnames would be the same because Legolas literally MEANS Greenleaf.

Also, as for your night sight comment, Elves had good eyesight. It probably wasn't that rare to be nightsighted.

[ September 20, 2002: Message edited by: *Varda* ]

Tar Elenion

09-21-2002, 07:46 PM

I'm not saying that JRRT decided that he Legolas was going to go on to be in the fellowship in the 1930s when he wrote the book, but i would guess that Legolas, in some form, appeared in the Fall of Gondolin, and he then appeared again in the LoTRs.

You are at liberty to say that all you want. However they are two different Elves. Completely seperate characters.

While the stories don’t exactly fit together perfectly, this is not unusual of a Lost Tale. I think that if JRRT had come to re-write the Fall he would have included Legolas in some (equally cryptic) way.

They dont fit together at all.

For starters it is not Legolas', its Legolai. I think that the evidence is that
1) They have the same name (Including Surname).

Greenleaf is the translation of Legolas. It is not a surname.
Having the same name is not evidence that they are the same character. Several Elves share the same name, and are different characters.

2) They are both associated with Trees (house of the leaf?),

Legolas of Gondolin is a Gnome (Noldo) of the House of the Tree.
Legolas son of Thranduil is a Sinda who dwelt in Mirkwood.

3) They both withdraw the Lonely Isle

One goes after the defeat of Melko, the other in the Fourth Age

4) They are both night-sighted.

Elves could see well in the dark.

5) The main piece of (still circumstantial) evidence is that when JRRT re-read the Fall he saw Glorfindel's name and thought "damn I have used the same name", and he never commented on Legolas being there, even though Legolas has a much larger part in the LoTRs than Glorfindel.

That is evidence against them being the same.
If they were the same Elf it would be deserving of comment. But Legolas of Gondolin was not a major character nor was his name so striking as Glorfindel.

[ September 21, 2002: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]

novbarwen greenleaf

09-28-2002, 06:41 AM

umm... im not pretty sure how old legolas is, but im positive he is more than 500 years old. smilies/smile.gif

Findegil

02-10-2003, 12:03 PM

5) The main piece of (still circumstantial) evidence is that when JRRT re-read the Fall he saw Glorfindel's name and thought "damn I have used the same name", and he never commented on Legolas being there, even though Legolas has a much larger part in the LoTRs than Glorfindel.

I'm sorry, because I like your way of thinking, and in general I am with you in this discussion but this isnt't an argument at all. When you read the remarks about Galdor that are attached to the Essay about Glorfindel it becomes clear that JRR Tolkien hadn't read FoG at that time (beacuse he did not know if Galdor survived FoG). Christopher Tolkien said that he thinks his father were not even able to locate the manuscript. So that JRR Tolkien not mentioned Legolas in these circumstances did only mean he didn't remembered him to be in the FoG.

Respectfully
Findegil

luin'loki

02-10-2003, 05:31 PM

don't tell me you guys didn't know!If he was 2,931 years old,then why was he in that war for freedom in Middle-Earth 3,000 years ago?Besides,Elves are ageless according to Tolkien.It's his book,he can say whatever he wants.

Ultimatejoe

02-10-2003, 10:54 PM

Use spaces between words. Elves aren't ageless, they are immortal. There is a distinct difference. While the fëa of an Elf cannot be destroyed the body or hroa(the union of which 'makes' an Elf) is eventually consumed, changing the nature of both over time.

Inderjit Sanghera

02-11-2003, 08:58 AM

2,931 is a movie only age. We don't know how old he is from the books.

Dain

02-14-2003, 11:41 AM

I am confused on this myself, because I know JRRT makes a big deal about not re-using elf names. BUT: in this case, the name has to be common if it just Greenleaf (but in what language, eh? I don't speak elf, someone tell me.) NEXT: it doesn't make sense for me to think that his grandfather was the King of Mirkwood at the time of the last alliance (SA 3434), and his father is noted at that battle and ruled thereafter, why would Legolas be the one at Gondolin (FA 510?)? What was the rest of his family doing at that time? Why three generations in 500 years, and then nothing more in 3000? Or, if Legolas was at the battle of the Last Alliance, why doesn't he mention it?
Tolkien reacted strongly to Glorfindel being used twice, but in this case, he just didn't have time to edit it, I think. I wasn't sure when I read the Silm. section, though, so maybe Galorme is right. But really, the more likely option is that they are two different people. I also feel that Legolas was a fairly young elf, and that he is supposed to be so. But, I'm no elf-expert.