PDA

View Full Version : Valar forsake MiddleEarth?


Orald
11-11-2000, 09:15 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 2</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
I was reading a few of the older posts looking for a particular one under my old name when I found a topic concerning the Valar and how they did not take part in the events of the third age. Correct me if i am wrong, but in the Silmarillion or rather AinulindalŽ it says something about the Ainur being bound to their music. So wouldn't it make sense that Valar didn't participate in the third age? I mean think about it, they stopped singing even before Ilķvatar began the third theme, the theme that made the children of Ilķvatar. Help me out here, I know the Silmarillion pretty well, but i would like someone else to give me their feedback

</p>

Gwaihir the Windlord
11-11-2000, 09:40 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Essence of Darkness
Posts: 492</TD><TD><img src=http://www.geocities.com/gwindlord/eagle.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Valar forsake MiddleEarth?

The Valar did participate in the Third Age.
They sent the Istari, who eventually overthrew Sauron.
When Gandalf, the most powerful Istar, was slain by a Balrog, they took his spirit back into Valinor and revitalised him. They also told him that he was permitted to use more of his Maiar powers, to compensate for the loss of the other four Istari.
They blew the spirit of the traitor Saruman into the depth of ME, where he must remain bound as punishment.

Bw, what was your old name?

Farewell! Wherever you fare, until your eyries receive you at the journeyís end!</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000022>Gwaihir the Windlord</A>&nbsp; <IMG SRC=http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 11/11/00 10:41:35 pm

Orald
11-11-2000, 10:06 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 3</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Valar forsake MiddleEarth?

Thanks for the info. really appreciate it. My name was either Dureledh or Gordžn, i don't really remember though. I haven't been in here since midsummer. That is why i was looking for my post in the first place.

</p>

Gwaihir the Windlord
11-11-2000, 10:15 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Essence of Darkness
Posts: 493</TD><TD><img src=http://www.geocities.com/gwindlord/eagle.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Valar forsake MiddleEarth?

No problems, D.

Farewell! Wherever you fare, until your eyries receive you at the journeyís end!</p>

Tar Elenion
11-12-2000, 11:41 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 21</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Valar forsake MiddleEarth?

The Valar were not responsible for the enhancement and return of Gandalf. Iluvatar is the one who accepted Gandalf's sacrifice and enhanced and returned him to complete his mission.

Tar-Elenion The High Elves had been in the hands of the gods praising and adoring Eru 'the One', Iluvatar the Father of All on the Mountain of Aman</p>

The Barrow-Wight
11-12-2000, 03:48 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1588</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Valar forsake MiddleEarth?

The Istari were emmisaries from the Valar. When Gandalf's body was killed, he, being a Maiar, returned to Aman. There, after resting for a time, he was allowed to return. Since his inhabitation of the body was done by the Valar in the first place, Iluvatar didn't have to step in to allow him to inhabit it again. (Or have I missed some text say that this was a deed of Iluvatar?)

And I never understood Gandalf the White to be an enhanced version of Gandalf the Grey... he was the same Maiar but with less constraints.... as the White he was allowed to use his power more (since he had to do the job of 5 wizards instead of one...if you consider the other 4 either on the side of evil or missing).

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

Orald
11-12-2000, 04:14 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 8</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Valar forsake MiddleEarth?

i think everyone missed my point. i meant participation in actual events like when morgoth and fingolfin did battle. melkor was able to partake in dealings of ME because during the music he kept singing even after most of the other ainur stopped. where else has one of the ainur with power to match directly participated in the events of ME?

</p>

Tar Elenion
11-12-2000, 08:14 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 22</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Valar forsake MiddleEarth?

Letter 156:
&quot;The Wizards, as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become to grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced and returned.&quot;
Later in same Letter:
&quot;He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back- for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'.&quot;

Initially Gandalf was sent by the Valar. After his death he was returned by something other than the Valar. That would be this &quot;Authority&quot;. In the full context of this letter it becomes rather clearer that the Authority is Eru Iluvatar.

Tar-Elenion The High Elves had been in the hands of the gods praising and adoring Eru 'the One', Iluvatar the Father of All on the Mountain of Aman</p>

The Barrow-Wight
11-12-2000, 09:23 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1590</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Valar forsake MiddleEarth?

Ah! The Letters. I still haven't read them (I don't own them <img src=frown.gif ALT=":("> ).

Check out the 'Who has read UT and HoME' topic and you'll see how few people might have known what you were talking about, Tar Elenion (assuming, I think safely, that even fewer people have read the Letters). It's always fair to tell folks when you are referencing texts outside the normal texts of the Lord of the Rings or the Silmarillion. Otherwise, it seems something from the books was missed by the reader.

This leades us again round the never-ending circle of 'canon'. But that topic is outside the scope of the one intended by theis thread.

Thanks for the info, T-E.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

Mithadan
04-27-2001, 12:50 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 836</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Valar forsake MiddleEarth?

I think &quot;foresake&quot; is the wrong word. Say rather that the Valar chose to no longer intervene directly in the events in Middle Earth. Thus they sent emissaries, the wizards, to influence events but not to weild power even in opposition to evil. As the domination of Man increased and the Elves waned, the Valar feared to act directly in Middle Earth affairs, possibly for fear both of the damage that matching Sauron's power with power would do and of influencing Man who were intended to possess free will and choice among the &quot;chances&quot; of the world.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

Orald
04-29-2001, 05:27 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shadow of Malice
Posts: 821</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Valar forsake MiddleEarth?

WOW! Has it only been that long since I joined. Makes me feel young again.

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eš, and evil be good to have been.</p>