Sinking Beleriand

[piosenniel]

It is implied in the Silmarillion that as a result of the War of Wrath in the First Age, Beleriand was broken and sank beneath the waves. Only parts of Ossiriand in the east remained, & became Lindon in later ages.

In one of the HoME's, #5,The Lost Road & Other Writings,it is suggested that Beleriand sank in a more gradual manner - the sinking began as a result of the War of Wrath and was finished only by the great waves resulting from the destruction and sinking of Numenor in the Second Age.

How and when do you you think this event was accomplished?

[Child of the 7th Age]

I am curious about this myself. Can anyone give us a hint why the two different stories exist?

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[piosenniel]

I was curious about the theories for the simple reason that approximately one million square miles of land would have been submerged in the sinking (this is according to calculations by KW Fonstad in her book, 'The Atlas of Middle Earth).

Had they sunk all at once, this would have been a mega-catastrophe of such horrific proportions that no creatures could have been expected to survive, not even those who had sought high ground. The destruction from the sudden displacement of so much water would have destroyed much of the lands and killed inhabitants of the remaining near regions, in addition. Even ships at sea in the vicinity of Beleriand at that time would probably have been swamped and destroyed.

A geologist I spoke with said that if this had happened in Northern Europe, the waves generated would have reached the coast of South America with devastating effects.

Now, if the lands of Beleriand had buckled when Thangorodrim was broken and slipped in a more gradual way under water, the effect would be less devastating and there would have been time for survivors to reach places of safety, to build ships, and to eventually sail away.

Perhaps that is how who may have been able to reach the Highlands of Dorthonion or the hill of Himring or the Stone of the Hapless(A high spot near the River Teiglin)were able to survive the flooding - these high sections of Beleriand became islands just off the new coast line.

Anyone have any other ideas?

One other thing: Does anyone recall where it was that Galadriel foretold that the sunken lands of Beleriand would one day rise again?

[ July 14, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ]

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

First of all, Galadriel said that!? I'd like to know where she said that too, if anybody knows!

And second. I like this question! smilies/biggrin.gif I always thought that it was washed all away at once, because of the sinking of Numenor. I thought the Valar (well, Eru) became so angered that he caused Numenor and All Beleriand to sink. But to have the lands washed away a little at a time fits much better.

One more question. How much land is left out of Beleriand? Piosenniel said that a little land was left, but how much exactly? Tol Morwen was said to still have remained I think, and that was pretty far west, so that's probably the farthest west that's above the sea.

[piosenniel]

Tol Morwen is the farthest west. North of its location is Tol Fuin, the remainder of Taur-nu-fuin, a forest in the highlands of Dorthonion. Just a little to the east of Tol Fuin is Himling, which is the remainder of the hill of Himring.

I believe that Lindon was the only region of Beleriand that survived as mainland.

An interesting result to this catastrophe, as Fonstad posits it, is that Mordor may have appeared at this time when the Inland Sea was drained during the destruction of the Iron Mountains and the Great Gulf drained part of the waters. Volcanic processes in that land, she states, would have allowed for relatively rapid mountain-building.

[ July 14, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ]

[akhtene]

Oh, piosenniel, it's always so convincing to have a specialist explain things. I would've never thought of the consequences of such a cataclizm for the whole world. However from the Silmarillion I got an idea that it happened all of a sudden.
...the nothern regions of the western world were rent asunder, and the sea roared in throughmany chasms, and there was confusion and great noise; and rivers perished or found new paths, and the valleys were upheaved and the hills trod down. And this changed world is seen by the slaves just freed from Morgoth's dungeons. This really implies that Beleriand was broken in a matter of minutes.

Unfortunately I haven't read the Lost Road. But anyway piosenniel's post suggests that Silm's description doesn't go very well with science and common sence. The idea I've got just now is that The Silm, being an account of events long past and seemingly stylised as chronicles, deliberatly distorts the time
relations of events for the sake of a more dramatic effect. It's like people looking back at some event (from their life or from history) are not always sure about how long exactly something took, especially if it is some realy dramatic episode.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Pio -- Take a look at Mithadan's thread on the drowning of Beleriand. I think you'll find it interesting.

I couldn't do the link as I am a computer idiot, but I did draw the thread up.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[piosenniel]

I just looked at that thread, Child. Thanks

There was a comment on there by someone named Saulotus referring to:

As for when Beleriand was 'mostly' ruined... try reading note 3 to Aldarion and Erendis. The description of the destruction was made as early as circa S.A. 600.

Do you know what this refers to?

Also apparently Saulotus does not consider 'The Atlas of Middle Earth' to very authentic in this area.

I am still unsure what, if any consensus, was arrived at about this subject on that thread.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Regarding the other thread.....there was not a complete consensus regarding the two sources. Most people seemed to agree, though, that the process of sinking was much slower than in Numenor, and no one was drowned. However, the exact rate of the sinking seems to be still in doubt.

I did notice one thing. Gwaihir mentioned that Tol Fuin sunk and then re-emerged. That could have some bearing on our story line. Is there a way to check this?

I don't know what those footnotes are. One is the name of a king of Numenor (the first one), but don't know where these footnotes are.

See also additional thread on What happened to Beleriand?

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[ July 15, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[piosenniel]

Child -

I also talked with the geologist about the sinking of Numenor - that again was a fairly massive piece of land and would have caused increased destruction or massive flooding of the coastline left after the sinking of Beleriand.

Refresh my memory - where is the post by Gwaihir - I'll see if I can ask him/her for specifics.

[ July 15, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ]

[Child of the 7th Age]

Pio -- the reference was by Gwaihir the windlord on the thread called Drowning of Belriand.

On Jan. 9, 2001, he said:

The small island of Himring west of Lindon was the hill of Himring; it was covered by water but then 'rose again'. Same goes for the highlands of Taur-nu-Fuin; they were drowned but rose again after the initial flood had slowed.

No source is given.

(Thanks for the stuff on links. I will definitely learn it, but can't today because I'm trying to pay my bills, pack, etc. for our trip, But I put it in my computer notebook.)

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[Child of the 7th Age]

Pio -- Yeah, I did it --the link I mean. Take a look at this thread. Specifically, look at the first post by Mithadan which talks about possible involvement of the Valar in the flood. Also there is a post by Telchar that says a lot of the smaller islands off Beleriand were sunk again when Numenor went. Is this true? If it is true, then it would be a "blessing in disguise" if you were on such an island and someone came and took you off of it before the Numenor flood. Can you find out if these islands were still standing after the Numenor flood?

Beleriand (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001077)

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[ July 16, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[piosenniel]

I looked at Telchar's post - he mentions Rerir, which I believe was a peak in the Blue Mountains, and Haudh-en-Elleth - the grave mound of the Elf-maid Finduilas. I can't find a reference that either of these were ever left as islands after the sinking of Beleriand, and then sunk with the fall of Numenor.

[*Varda*]

Where exactly was Numenor anyway?

[piosenniel]

Varda

Here's a link to a little something on Nùmenor:
Nùmenor (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm?http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/intro.html)

It was an island located between Aman in the West and Middle-Earth in the east.

[piosenniel]

Amazing Gwaihir - found the source of the quote concerning what was left of the land forms when Beleriand sank!

per Gwaihir:

I've got it. Unfinished Tales, Christopher Tolkien talking about the maps he drew with his father. Here's the quote and the page number in my edition; if you don't have the book, you'll have to listen to the quote.


'... and I have shown the little island of Himling far off the north-western coast, which appears on one of my father sketch maps and on my own first draft. Himling was the earlier form of Himring (the great hill on which Maedhros son of Feanor had his fortress in the Silmarillion), and although the fact is nowhere else referred to it is clear that Himring's top rose above the waters that covered drowned beleriand. Some way to the west of it was a larger island named Tol Fuin, which must be the highest part of Taur-nu-Fuin (Dorthonion).'

[doug*platypus]

I don't think that the geophysics of our modern world would necessarily apply to Tolkien's world. As has been noted elsewhere on the Downs, he was not a physicist. Tolkien's world seems real in comparison to our world's mythology and folklore, but not when set along side science as we now know it. Which is fantastic, I think, since a lot of the magic is lost when fantasy writers try to overexplain phenomena.

I think it's highly likely that the Valar, or whatever force caused the Sinking of Beleriand, were not subject to the usual physical laws, and that it would be possible for them to only destroy Beleriand without affecting the rest of Middle-Earth. A possible explanation could be fault lines like the San Andreas fault, if any explanation really needs to be given.

The most important thing in the tale is that at the end the ocean comes in to wash clean the land, and the importance of what happened in the rest of the world at that time is minor at best. With the whole cleansing idea (remember bad guys hate water), I find it interesting that part of Taur-nu-Fuin was still left standing. It would have been cool if Fingolfin's cairn was left above the water! (*sigh*, so many what-ifs).

Another neat thread that hasn't been mentioned is What Happened to Beleriand? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000493)

[drigel]

This is a great thread! I always thought that Beleriand after the war was initially ruined by the violence, but not instantly submerged. Otherwise how could so many creatures (elves dwarves men et al)survived to migrate? I imagined an inhabitant of Beleriand deciding to leave because of the resulting aftermath of the war, and that decision would be supported by the fact that they would be observing the coastline creeping toward them on a daily basis. At that rate it wouldnt take too many years for the entire region to either be either partially or completely submerged. Maybe a Valar induced global warming? Anyhoo - I thought that the sinking of Numenor was just icing on the cake that effectively wiped out any remnants...

Heres a question - Other than swords, were there any artifacts from Belerian itself that were saved?

[piosenniel]

Tolkien, to my understanding, did intend to base, for the most part, the physical properties of Arda on the corresponding natural laws of our world, as was known to him then, though he did it with a certain Elvish craft as he designed it.

From "Interview with Tolkien"; Niekas, 1967; vol. 18; p. 37-43

In a response to the interviewer, Henry Resnick:

If you really want to know what Middle-earth is based on, it's my wonder and delight in the Earth as it is, particularly the natural earth.

[ January 09, 2003: Message edited by: piosenniel ]

[doug*platypus]

Granted, Pio, and thanks for providing the quote, I still haven't read Letters yet. I think, though, that certain of the feats of the Valar fall outside the realm of science as we now know it. Much like the Aboriginal legends of the dreamtime, or the appearance of the Hebrew god as pillars of smoke and of fire (although admittedly that could be metaphorical), and in fact many legends of previous times.

Failing to see a scientific explanation for events such as Eärendil's ascent to the heavens, or the creation and destruction of the Lamps of the Valar, I think that the Feats of the Valar must be either:
outside the explanation of science, or described metaphorically by the recorderI think the former is by far the more likely.

Also, re the migration of survivors out of Beleriand - didn't the Valar tow them to safety on an island? Or was that only the Númenóreans?

[drigel]

Whatever it was it had to be slow enough for an Ent to get out of Dodge
smilies/smile.gif

[piosenniel]

I think we need to separate the powers of the Valar from the actual physical events that occur within Arda.

Those powers are outside the realm of this physical world of ours, but Tolkien's vision for the actions and consequences of those powers within the physical, natural world of Arda is that they would follow the physical laws as he understood them of this Earth.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

I seem to recall that originally Arda was flat, and later was bent into a sphere. Does anyone remember exactly when this took place?
I imagine a flat Earth would react differently to the sinking of Beleriand & Numenor, (I can't begin to understand how gravity would even work in such a world!).
I suspect that the bending might have happen long before the deluge.

[Manwe Sulimo]

It was "bent" into a sphere after the Númenóreans invaded, when Valinor and Tol Eressëa were "removed from the circle of the world." Afterwards, mariners could only go around back to their starting points without (unless they were Elves) reaching Aman.

[Mandos]

Yes, Voronwe(or somebody ) said in the Silmarillion that "all roads are now bent".
But also that the Elder could still find the straight road that led to the blessed lands.

[ January 09, 2003: Message edited by: Mandos ]

[doug*platypus]

It was "bent" into a sphere after the Númenóreans invaded
There appears to be a bit of contention over this point, as you can read here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000227). Let's not go down that bent road on this thread!
I think we need to separate the powers of the Valar from the actual physical events that occur within Arda.
But some of the physical events (see my previous post, and add to it the Hiding of Valinor) are so far out of the realms of normal occurrence that there appears to be no plausible scientific explanation for them. I think the search for such explanations will be fruitless.

[Amarinth]

wow this is a great thread! i've not read HoME yet, but being a geologist i find myself inclined to agree with the version here as piosenniel detailed in her first post. thanks btw for sharing that, pio!

land-altering events such as the sinking of great landmasses do tend to occur in the long-term, i.e., in geologic time. yeah, one can argue that science may not necessarily be applicable here in this genre, but during the time tolkien wrote the silm, great discoveries about earth's ancient history such as the ice age and drowning of lands as a result of glacial/polar melting were just recently made. the theories of continental drift and dynamic crustal plate movements were also conceived during this time. perhaps it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to think that tolkien derived inspiration from these paradigms smilies/wink.gif

One other thing: Does anyone recall where it was that Galadriel foretold that the sunken lands of Beleriand would one day rise again?

off the top of my head, pio, i think she said this when she and her company met up with treebeard on the way home from the war of the rings... something about the chances of meeting each other once more only when the sunken lands are raised again and she could once more walk the plains? of tasarinan?

[doug*platypus]

Good call, I think she mentions that they may walk together in the willow-meads. Funny, she charmed Gimli exactly the same way, by talking in his own terms of the Mountains of Moria. That wiley temptress! Even if Beleriand was raised up again, though, surely the trees would have been a bit oversaturated? And salty? Perhaps it's Galadriel's opinion that Valinor will, now or in the future be some kind of heaven where everyone's wishes come true. I'm not sure what the mythology says about what will happen after the Dagor Dagorath. Probably best not to know, I think. I didn't really enjoy the way that The Chronicles of Narnia explain almost everything right down to the last detail.