Faramir or Boromir?

[Brian The Blue]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
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Now remeber that Boromir was only taken by the power of the ring dont use that against him. But who do you think was the better leader, warrior, and diplomat. Overall who do you think was better fit to rule?

&quot;Dont meddle in the affairs of wizards....&quot;

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[Mithadan]

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Re: Faramir or Boromir?

Faramir, who was thoughtful, patient and wise. Boromir might have been an adequate leader, but he was first and foremost a warrior. Faramir was more like the Numenoreans of old.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Salabel]

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Re: Faramir or Boromir?

Too right. Faramir was far wiser and more sensible, although he was not as strong; but brute strength and battle skills aren't everything.

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[Zoe]

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Re: Faramir or Boromir?

Faramir, definitely. Even without the Ring, I think that Boromir would get a bit too tyrannical and power-mad.

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[The Barrow-Wight]

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Re: Faramir or Boromir?

The most important aspect of leadership (and most difficult to attain) is earned respect. Followers will automatically respect the rank or position, and thus the person holding it. But to truly gain 'earned respect' one must win the troops loyalty through a natural combination of personality, wisdom, humility and ability. Faramir was the obvious superior in all of these.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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[Grand Admiral Reese]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Faramir or Boromir?

I think Faramir was truly the greater of the two as a leader.


Tall ships and tall kings Three times three, What brought they from the foundered land Over the flowing sea? Seven stars and seven stones And one white tree. .</br>
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[Inziladun]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Faramir or Boromir?

Boromir had the edge in combat prowess,but that was it. He was way too impatient and rash to be a leader of state.
Faramir had the admiration of his men,and was generally a good deal wiser than his brother. Faramir was without question more suited to be the Steward.

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[Brian The Blue]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Faramir or Boromir?

Heres another debatable question. If Denathor loved Boromir so much then why did he send him instead of Faramir?

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[the Lorien wanderer]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Faramir or Boromir?

Because Denethor wanted Boromir to have the glory that any in that Company were certain to get. No doubt he also thought him more capable than Faramir.
I think Faramir would have made a better leader. Boromir would have made a better army Captain.

Not all those who wander are lost.</p>

[Orald]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Faramir or Boromir?

I think Denethor chose Boromir strictly on primogenitor. It was his right. Unless I can't recall something, did Denethor love Boromir more? Did it say so in the book?

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[Zoe]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Faramir or Boromir?

They (Denethor and Boromir) were certainly more alike in character than Denethor-Faramir or Faramir-Boromir. I think that Denethor was more proud of Boromir, but I'm not sure (and can't be bothered trying to check).

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[Voronwe]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Faramir or Boromir?

Actually, I think that Faramir was more alike to Denethor than Boromir was. Boromir was, first and foremost, a warrior. Denethor was not. Denethor and Faramir are very similar - the only major difference being that Denethor fell victim to pride and despair, whereas Faramir did not. Both were like the Numenoreans of old; Boromir, it is said, was more like the men of Rohan - a warrior, but not a leader except in battle. Faramir and Denethor were both shrewd and were both good judges of men's thoughts. That is why it was such a tragedy when Denethor fell - he could have been a great leader in the War of the Ring.


-Voronwë
"voyaging the Dark behind the world, a glimmering and fugitive star."</p>

[Zoe]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Faramir or Boromir?

Yes, but both Denethor and Boromir fell victim to pride (the Ring, you say? I reckon part of it was pride). Really, I don't think Faramir was much like Denethor at all.

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[stone of vision]

Both of them could be valuable leaders, but each of both in a different way.
Boromir has for him, his passion, his valiance, his audacity, that self- confidence that force admiration, and a stringent reseach of perfection which seems to obssess him.
As Gandalf he was a "masterman", a man who seeks to rule without compromises, his destiny and those who would follow him.
That makes him vulnerable to the eseay side of the power, and the bite of pride.

Faramir has inherited of wisdom and never wished to lead, though his bravoure is a equal as his brother.
His concern, his care for the well -being of the people who live and from where he comes, his likes for what seems right, will give the strength and enough motivation to fight until victory.
He is one of those, for who power comes to them whitout them seeking it. Since they have no choice, but to use it in productive ways.

Because I tend to be more sensitive to the second description which correspond to my convictions, I would choose Faramir for that reasons et not because he's the best.

By the way, none of them is doomed to rule, as the place is deserved for the King who shall return.

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

I just wanna say that Denethor didn't pick Boromir to go instead of Faramir. Faramir had the dreams and he was gonna go but Boromir being the older brother and all, took his place and he told Faramir to stay behind and that he'd go for him.

[piosenniel]

Faramir seems a more well rounded character with respect to the role of leadership than does Boromir. He reminds me somewhat of Aragorn. He is intelligent, well liked/respected by his men, and seems more able to see the 'larger picture', that is beyond his immediate concerns for Gondor. Boromir is essentially a warrior. He is bold, loyal, & honorable. But, he is too quick to take action without thoroughly thinking through a position. He would be a good General under the command of Faramir.

On the other hand, Faramir was not in direct contact with the Ring, not subject to its evil ways.

[VanimaEdhel]

It depends on how you classify "great leader" I believe. The most benevolent, intelligent, strong, and probably the most likely to make a good change in the land is Faramir. Okay...what's good about Boromir? He was brave, even though he fell victim to the ring...I guess...and, if you wanted a leader to be like Denethor, Boromir would be your man.

And yes: Denethor sent Boromir to his death because he wanted Boromir to gain glory. You know how Humans, even in LotR, seem to, in general (well, Elves do too...) love glory and bravery and all that!

[Kalimac]

The question is "Faramir or Boromir?" My answer is "For what? Depends on the situation."

The way it seems to me is that if you're looking for a wonderful second-in-command or lieutenant, Boromir is it. He has a lot of physical power, is a very able warrior and very brash, and there's nothing that suggests he wasn't popular with his men - that sort of very energetic, rather bullheaded character can inspire people to do a lot more than they would otherwise during a long, slogging campaign. He also does best when taking a cue from someone else; in Gondor he was always under Denethor's command and was able to take directions from him and execute them very well, similarly he had great respect for Aragorn and obeyed his lead, but you get the feeling that when Boromir was in a situation where he was the PRIMARY leader that he didn't really know what to do with himself.

Faramir was quite the opposite, a born leader-of-men; a more intellectual, rational type of being. He was the thoughtful yet able type of leader (rather like Aragorn) that someone like Boromir could look up to, and who in turn would be a check for Boromir's worst impulses. As a second-in-command, though, Faramir wasn't up to much. Granted, Denethor was not in the best state of mind by the time he had his quarrels with Faramir in ROTK, but you get the feeling that Faramir has a very difficult time taking orders from anyone who is not Gandalf's level or higher. "Not if I found it in the highway would I take it," says Faramir, but it's clear that this is HIS choice; if Denethor had told him "Not if you find it in the highway will you take it" it's easy to see Faramir bridling at that - not disobeying, necessarily, but certainly thinking along the lines of "I'll do it because I want to, not because you tell me to." Boromir, OTOH, accepted Aragorn's orders on the subject - until, of course, the Ring got to be too much for him, but as was said, that shouldn't count against him in this, should it?

[Amarinth]

an addendum---

both boromir and faramir were excellent warriors, but as "statesmen" or leaders faramir seemed a man of larger, non-egocentric convictions while boromir seemed to be of a more insular mindset, unable to easily see anything beyond the good of gondor. faramir understood and therefore could sense important circumstances in seemingly unimportant ones, e.g., what was afoot with frodo. and in this sense he was truly a full-blooded, far-seeing, global numenorean, the kind needed to lead a great nation.

[Daniel Telcontar]

Boromir proved himself as a warrior many times, and also he often drove the orcs back, so he has some leaderskills. But, as Gandalf says, the blood of Numenor is almost clean in Denethor and Faramir, but not in Boromir. Hence Denethor and Faramir must be most alike, and Famramir the most adept ruler.

[Arwen Imladris]

I always liked Faramir better. Even his name is "Fair". He was the one who had the dream first. He did not ever want power, which made him the perfect leader.

Faramir was also better friends with Gandalf, that would atomatically make him the better leader.

Do you really think that Denethor was an adept leader?? smilies/eek.gif

[Daniel Telcontar]

I believe that Denethor was a good ruler. He was like the Kings of old, and although his rule as a steward is not described closely, I have no doubt that he ruled well. Gandalf says he was wise in his youth, and that he would not have dared use the palantir if not Gondor had been in trouble. He was only trying to do the best for Gondor.

[littlemanpoet]

It is said in the books (be Gandalf I believe) that Denethor married a Gondorian woman of great beauty, who because of her meek lineage died young. Boromir took after her in all but humility while Faramir took after Denethor in all but pride. Thus, Denethor, reminded of his late wife by Boromir, held B. as his favorite. So it is true that Boromir took more after the Avari of the Twilight and Faramir after the Numenoreans of old.

[Daniel Telcontar]

You are right, littlemanpoet, that Denethor married a gondorian woman, and I think her name was Morwen of Lossarnach. But she didn't die young due to her lineage, but because she longed for the sea and could not be happy in the stonecity of Minas Tirith.

[littlemanpoet]

Yes, Daniel, thanks for the correction on that point. I sort of hunched that I was not getting it quite right on the cause of death.

The Frodo-weakest or strongest thread kind of strayed into a discussion of Faramir versus Boromir, so I'm quoting those posts here:
littlemanpoet:
A very well written and moving account of Sam's growth, Child.
I've just been rereading Frodo's interrogation by Faramir in Ithilien. In the context of Frodo's plight as quoted in my last post on this thread, the self-control exhibited by his careful words and circumspection reveal his depth of character. Funny, I had not noticed it in qutie that light before. Faramir's words capture a part of it:

"...there is something strange about you, Frodo, an elvish air, maybe."

I have to smile at Tolkien's own circumspection in using Faramir, a true descendant of Numenor, to perceive this elvish element in Frodo, and then "coda" it with "maybe".
Having read this section over again for the first time in a few years, my appreciation for Faramir has again risen right up there with Gandalf and Aragorn. Suddenly he is my favorite character after Frodo and Sam - again. And his devotion to Boromir makes me want to read all over again Boromir's dying words, acknowledging Aragorn as "my king". Powerful stuff.

stone of vision:
Aaya Littlemanpoet,
Sorry if I misread or misunderstood

"And his devotion to Boromir makes me want to read all over again Boromir's dying words, acknowledging Aragorn as "my king". Powerful stuff."

Isn't that the line Boromir embodied by Sean Bean said in the movie?

As I told in an other thread:
In the movie, Sean Bean’s acting at the last moments of Boromir touched me very much,) his respectful aknowledgement and acceptation, his “love” for Aragorn as the man he is, as his king, leads him to the peace of mind and the satisfaction he may desire. Boromir left the middle earth his spirit and his soul free and intact in the vision of P jackson. (sob !)

On the contrary in the book, Boromir keeps his pride and his unsatifaction till the end. . He didn’t challenge openly Aragorn’rights but never recognized personally it.
His last words said he was sorry. Who was he sorry for the hobbits? For frodo? For himself? For failing? Not for forgiveness. Then he stated with coldness “I have paid” implying he own defeat, his own belated error, accepting what he thinks he deserved.

I admit because of the movie influence, Sean Bean's acting/ PJ 's pov- I also get confused about my own beliefs in the book where Broromir's portrayal is less pleasant.

And yes I quite liked the way Sean Bean/PJ portrayed Boromir

littlemanpoet:
Oops. I wondered about that as I wrote my last post on this thread. Sure enough, it was in the movie and not the book. I shall now commit heresy against the subcreator himself and suggest that PJ and the movie and Sean Bean surpassed Tolkien's rendition of the scene. Not that I necessarily believe it, just felt like throwing it out there. However, I do read the scene a little differently than you, Stone of Vision, my friend. I see Boromir's recognition of Aragorn's rights in: 'Farewell, Aragorn! Go to Minas Tirith and save my people! I have failed.' In saying this, Boromir acknowledges Aragorn's right to be the savior of his people. And Aragorn denies Boromir's defeat by saying 'few have gained such a victory'. The victory is having died well. Very Nordic.
I wish Sean Bean got better movie roles than he does. I've seen him in much, but never in a better role than LotR-FotR.

stone of vision:
Dear littlemanpoet,
I would be honnored if could have a look at my post about one of the possible Boromir's portraying in the thread"the original breaking of the fellowship" where I had extracted some parts in my fore message. ( the third one)
Here's the link:
the original breaking of the fellowship
I would like you to give your opinion about it. Please

What is disturbing me in "'Farewell, Aragorn! Go to Minas Tirith and save my people! I have failed" is the fact that Boromir used the possessive pronoun ** my** people. couldn't he have said rather : " the people of Minas Thirith"

Certainly another geekyness of my part

Child of the 7th Age
Littlmanpoet and Stone of Vision -- Guess what? Faramir is also my "third favorite" character after Frodo and Sam. And that is saying a lot, since I tend to be partial to elves, hobbits, and other non-human characters.
What fascinates me about Faramir, among other things, is how closely Tolkien identified with him. And I feel that identification affected not only Faramir, but also the role of his brother Boromir in the story. In one of his Letters, Tolkien denies he is like Gandalf in response to a query and instead asserts that the character he is most like is Faramir (though the author claims not to have the latter's courage.)

Tolkien had a recurring dream in life where a huge wave overcomes an island, obviously a reference to Numenor/Atlantis. His son Michael had this very same recurring dream about the Great Wave, even though he had no knowledge of the dream by his father. (A little strange, no?) Anyways, it is this dream which he gives to Faramir in the story. It is also Faramir, the only character in the book, who stands up with his men before a meal and faces West. As he explains to Frodo, this is to face towards Elvenhome and Valinor and remember the great ones who live there. The way this is phrased, and I don't have the book beside me this minute, it is, in effect, a prayer. Frodo hangs his head and says he "feels rustic" and inadequate after hearing this explanation of what is obviously a very spiritual thing since his own culture had nothing like this. How interesting that Faramir, whom Tolkien identified with, should be the only character to have this overt religious expression! Also like Tolkien, both Faramir and his bride Eowyn were motherless.

Tolkien was an enormously private person and for him to admit his identification with Faramir in writing is, I believe, quite revealing. I think Faramir walked right out of Tolkien's subconscious. Again, in the Letters, Tolkien says: "A new character has come on the scene (I am sure I did not invent him, I did not even want him, though I like him, but there he came walking out of the woods of Ithilien) Faramir, the brother of Boromir...." So if Faramir says he can see an elvish look about Frodo, you can bet your boots that the author is saying he sees it too!

Given Tolkin's identification with the character, Faramir's limitations also intrigue me, especially his suspicions of Gollum and how his archers almost make an end to him. In this instance, as contrasted with the prayers before dining scene, it is Frodo who comes over as the more sensitive and compassionate.

Now, in the Letters, while Tolkien goes on and on at length in several places about Faramir--he barely mentions his brother Boromir. At one point, Tolkien gives a spirited defense of Faramir's relationship with Eowyn. There are a scant 4 references to Boromir in the entire letters. So I think there is something personal going on here. Tolkien truly liked Faramir and identified with him and, by contrast, I believe, he truly disliked his counter-ego Boromir. I think that duality strongly affects how these two characters come over in the book. Iwould say it is one of the things that makes Boromir's "repentence" less convincing.

I agree that PJ's Boromir is a lot "nicer" than JRRT's, but I think that has a lot to do with how Tolkien viewed Faramir whom he sympathetically described in the Letters as having "a bossy brother" and a "stern proud father." And I'm afraid I have a feeling closer to JRRT than PJ on this one, though it made for a great scene in the movie! sharon the 7th age hobbit

littlemanpoet:
Stone of Vision, I'll look up that thread as soon as I've post this reply to Child regarding Faramir.
Child, the connection between JRRT and Faramir is convincing. I accept it. Regarding, however, Faramir's lesser compassion for Gollum as compared to Frodo, I would not go too far with the subconscious iconography (I may be using that word wrong, it just tripped out). Tolkien's revision was a very conscious process, as he tells us himself, and Faramir's Gondorian-ness and duties as a lieutenant with orders to follow require that he be strict regarding Gollum's illegal entry into the Caves. That he actually relents and lets Gollum go reveals his depth of compassion and perhaps foresight, as well as, perhaps, the connection again to JRRT subconsciously.

Child of the 7th Age
Re Faramir:

"That he actually relents and lets Gollum go reveal his depth of compassion and perhaps foresight, as well as , perhaps, he connection again to JRRT subconsciously."

Good point, Littlemanpoet. Unlike the situation with Sam, you never sense a personal animosity. The one thing Faramir did not have, could not have, was the sense of connection with Gollum, the identification with the suffering of Gollum, which was fostered by the wearing of the Ring itself.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit



Hope that adds of a little interest.

[ May 21, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

[ May 21, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

[Nar]

I've always played with the idea that while Denethor consistently favored Boromir out of politic necessity (Boromir was the heir and would have to take over,) and out of a certain emotional apathy arising from his despair, Faramir was really his favorite all along, although Denethor would never have admitted that to a living soul. Their minds and souls were very much akin as highly insigtful & intelligent Numenoreans, whereas Boromir and Denethor had nothing in common-- leading Denethor to be protective of Boromir, and perhaps too indulgent, hoping he would grow into the Stewardship.

Consider Denethor's bitter jealousy of the friendship of Faramir & Gandalf. Denethor has many reasons to be suspicious of Gandalf, but the degree of jealousy suggests a real longing for exclusive possession of his son's love-- more in line with Faramir being his real favorite and Denethor feeling rejected.

After news of Boromir's death came, it might have been easier for Denethor to believe that he ironically sent his favorite to his death-- a cruel twist of fate, but with no possiblility of guilty choice on Denethor's part. The deeper fear would be that Denthor indeed made a choice, choosing death for his less loved son and relative safety for his more loved son-- that he sacrificed loyal Boromir to save Faramir, that ungrateful Wizard's thrall who never really loved his old dad as he ought.

Of course, at the time, Denethor actually made no choice at all, as he did not expect the quest to be fatal-- but he might well have wondered later if he had made a choice without fully knowing it, considering that the foresight of the Numenoreans made this possible. (See Halbarad, Aragorn)

Although I think Boromir is the better captain in battle, being as brave, stronger & more cheerful, Faramir's my favorite, as he is the better strategist and general, and almost as good a captain. I think Denethor preferred Faramir also.

[Saxony Tarn]

This has been quite insightful, and i dare say the "inside info" here has validated a few of my hypotheses (i expect i'll see it emerge as a central theme in a fanfic) however, i'd promised myself i'd stay out of this thread as it appeared i'd be the lone voice of even tongue-in-cheek dissent.

Having now confessed to my sympathy for the Devil, let me take a spin at being his Advocate...

A few good reasons for laying my sword at the feet of King Boromir:

1) From carrying around all those guilt trips and great expectations from some 25K-odd people counting on him to deliver their future (assuming Aragorn didn't show up) the man is definately motivated. No slacker loafing around and embezzling from the treasury while the public of Gondor literally has to eat stone for breakfast. i would expect him to be so much of a hands-on sovereign that he'd have to be ordered to take a holiday.

2) On the campaign platform: Infrastructure growth, border security, economic revitalization, new flowering of national spirit, resettling of Ithilien, conquest of Mordor...

3) Despite having no qualms about blowing his own horn, he's been in the soldier biz long enough to understand teamwork, prudent resource deployment, and most importantly, DELEGATION. (i realize that i am giving him credit for a minimum amount of intelligence and common sense, without which he likely would not have survived to be able to take part in the story) The catch here would be to whom he delegates what. Now if we assume that Denethor loaded so many expectations on him in assumption that he'd someday be taking over, and bring in the comparison with King Eärnur from the back of the book appendices, it's not too much of a leap of logic for me to infer that Bor' might have been counting on recruiting Far' for a vice-president-like backup (a sort of, my learned, diplomatic younger brother playing Steward Mardil to my King Eärnur, if you will) Despite whatever other control issues he may have had, i can't see him being foolish enough to cut his brother out of the picture (especially if, at Osgiliath & others, we can assume that they've conducted field ops as a team before) On the issue of him making a good second-in-command -- this guy has been groomed for years to be top dog and by now sees second place as the first loser. However, as long as he's backed by a support staff whose advice he can trust, i would say that the governed could to a great extent trust him. As for taking cues from Aragorn, well, unless Tolkein constructed his military vastly different from ours, i should expect Bor' started at the bottom rank of officers and had to earn his way up (looking at Denethor, i'd expect him to MAKE the young man work his way up) He'd understand and respect pecking order, as in, "Gandalf was party leader, and I am here to keep Gondor's hand in, then Gandalf fell off the bridge after telling Aragorn to lead, so therefore I will work with Aragorn until such time as things change"...

4) and last but not least, we all know what stands behind just about every successful man. Unlike the other great leader candidates in this saga, he's not yet spoken for. Okay, so my Middle-Earth avatar has ulterior motives -- but given how nonexistent his relationship with his delicate mother was, Bor' would probably respect an ambitious consort (see advisors whom he can or can't trust above) -- or see her as a Sword of Damocles-like check to keep him in balance (and the populace of Gondor entertained) Not to mention, making sure HIS children didn't turn out so messed up all because their father spent too much time looking in his crystal ball and got seduced by the Dark Side.

Hey -- it's good to be the Queen!

s.t.

|_|) <-- it comes in pints, and this one's for you!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I wonder if 2 brothers could get along well enough to rule Gondor, because from all the valid points already on this thread, it's obvious to me that Boromir and Faramir would make a fantastic team.

One would always have to be slightly higher than the other though, I'm not sure it would work.

[orlandoandsaran]

I agree with you Eomer of Rohirrim. Both would make a perfect team as they have a close bond between them as you can see how much they loved each other in the book. One wiser, one braver...it will even out each weaknesses.

[GreatWarg]

Mith's right. And yes, Denethor favored Boromir because he "was not a wizard's pupil, and would've done anything I told him." BUT Faramir, was like the kings of old, something that Boromir actually didn't have. SOmewhere in the Appendices, it says that "Faramir was more like the kings of old, as was Denethor, but Boromir lacked those qualities..."

[Luineglin]

I belive that both would have made great leaders. But would have Faramir been to patient and waited to long or would of borimir not waited long enough. Either way i belive that they would have been great leaders and especially as a team.

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

Most likely somebody mentioned this before- I haven't read the whole thread- but it said in one of the appendixes i think that Boromir did not have any Numenorean blood, while Faramir did. O and I think it said somewhere that Boromir went to Imladris, not Faramir, because Faramir wanted to go but Boromir thought it was too dangerous and went himself. Sorry if its been said before.

[Gurlie]

i totally think that they messed Faramir up in the movie He is awesome and good in the book

[Gurlie]

I totally think that Faramir is better because he is resistant and he helps the hobbits He is totally awesome

[Lathriel]

I think Faramir would be a better leader because he has more common sense and inteligence then Boromir. However he always struggled with the fact that Denethor favoured Boromir. I guess Denethor send Boromir because he knew Boromir would probably try to take the ring which is what Denethor himself would have done. Also Denethor overlooked the qualities in Faramir or he simply didn't try.

Note: When Denethor send Boromir to Rivendell he was already looking in the Palantir

[Aragorn2002]

I would have to agree, definatly Faramir
________
Uggs (http://uggstoreshop.com/)

[galadriel'smaiden]

My vote has to go to Faramir. He had seemingly better judgment, wisdom and evn patience. But don't get me wrong, Boromir had good leadership skills for a war, he would have definately topped Faramir there. But still, overall Faramir would be a better leader.

[Dark Shadow]

I think Faramir would make a better leader. He seems to have more wisdom and better judgement than his brother. And you can really see how much the people of Gondor love him. Take Beregond for example. He sees Faramir returning from Osgiliath, followed by the witch king, and he races out to help. Then later on, when Denethor is going to burn himself along with Faramir, Beregond slays Denethor's servants to save Faramir, losing his place on the guard. However, Boromir was the more heroic of the two, so I suppose if you look for heroism in a ruler then he would have made a better one. Actually, I think perhaps Boromir would have made the perfect, heroic leader, and Faramir would have made a good conseler, but then again, the people of GOndor might have prefered Faramir as a ruler. I don't know actually. Both have good qualities.

[XPhial]

Faramir was really his favorite all along, although Denethor would never have admitted that to a living soul. Their minds and souls were very much akin as highly insigtful & intelligent Numenoreans, whereas Boromir and Denethor had nothing in common--


In my opinion, that's exactly why Denethor would favour Boromir. We tend to despise in others the things we dislike about ourselves. Denethor seemed to me to wish he had the physical prowress of Boromir and his active disposition, while disliking the 'weakness' he projected onto Faramir.

As for who would make a better leader, I believe Tolkien wrote Faramir's character as a foil to Boromir's rashness. He embodies the greatness of Gondor and its history without the impetuousness his older brother displays. He is written to be a good leader of men, even in the way he is able to accept that his own authority has limits.

[Haelothiel]

I have to agree with most everyone and say that Faramir was the better leader. I do believe that Boromir would be a good friend to a leader, because of his speech to Aragorn while he died. I don't think it would have been possible for him to serve his brother though, because of his rashness, and pride. Boromir would have been respected, and could have led the Gondorian army very well, but I don't think he could take care of Gondor, especially during peace times.

[maikafanawen]

Well, they both would have made very great leaders. Boromir would have been a very strong leader. He'd do well to run the city safely, if not calmly smilies/wink.gif. Faramir is an overall good person. He is wise, and fair. He is not quick to anger or judgement. They would be different leaders, but different isn't better.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

I'm taking this straight out of 'The Letters', so if it discusses a bit of why and how Faramir could fall in love with Eowyn so quickly and easily, sorry. But to start, Faramir is the better leader of the two. For one thing, he reminded them of Gandalf, and Gandalf is indeed important as a leader, he is the chief enemy of Sauron.

Faramir grew up in a harsh time, under a strict father who obviously cared more for a different sibling. He had no mother (he barely remembered her) and no sisters, and to top it off, he had a 'bossy' (that's the exact term J.R.R.T. uses) brother. But still the people revered him as a man who makes correct choices and is greater than most. He was more flexible, more willing to sacrifice his own personal wants and gains for the greater good, and more apt to heed the councils of his colleagues, rather to just listen, pick through the facts, and make his own 'political' choices, like Denethor or Boromir would tend to do. Boromir would? I do not really know, I suppose after a while he would have gained more political experience, but for the most part (he hadn't moved past his 'heroic, valliant, warrior' stage), he was a man of action, and a man of great valor, and had no need for such things as policy so early in life. Faramir, however, who was used to being fairly subservient, but being just and wise of his own accord, would be a more popular (instead of elite) ruler. Indeed, Faramir through watching and keeping his own opinions quiet until he had other facts, was much better at reading people. This does not mean he would simply trust to another's opinion or plan. But he certainly read people well, even Eowyn, and he fell in love out of pity-another thing he had in larger quantities than Boromir. Faramir, as Prince of Ithilien, was chief of King Elessar's advisers, and remained in charge of home when the king and others left to purge orcs, or to maintain the still rampant easterlings. Boromir, I am certain, would have insisted on accompanying Aragorn into the battles, and for the better, as keeper of Gondor while Aragorn was away, he couldn't have hoped to keep people pleased as Faramir did. Boromir's death was rued by the people, he was a great man (my favorite character) and a fierce warrior, but from the reactions towards Faramir in the Return of the King, it can plainly be seen that the people of Minas Tirith loved him more. The blood of Numenor ran nearly true in Denethor, but not so in Boromir. It did however, run true in Faramir, and so he was the better leader, if not for his prowess for his thoughtfulness, if not for his boldness for his care.

[Lady_of_lothlorien]

I think Faramir would be better, agreeing with all that's been said so far.

Oh, and i'm not biased at all just because he's my favorite character and i have a huge crush on him, I wouldn't think of it smilies/biggrin.gif

P.S.:I'm still thinking of going to new Zealand and lynching PJ for how he messed him up!!

[Andephelien]

Faramir, definatly. I compare the two as Athena and Ares. Athena (Faramir) was the wise woman goddess of war. Ares (Boromir) was the God of war. Athena and Ares, if in one to one combat, Ares would win. But when reasoning and being general-like came into play, Athena would be the victor.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-Strength without wisedome falls by it's own wieght.- Ancient Greek Texts

[Lily Bracegirdle]

This is a very interesting and insightful discussion. It doesn't hurt that I agree with just about everything everyone has said either. smilies/tongue.gif

I had originally thought Denethor's dislike for Faramir had stemmed from the loss of his wife, Finduilas of Dol Amroth, but she died five years after Faramir was born, so that seems unlikely. After considering, I think Denethor favored Boromir because he knew Boromir was loyal to him and his rule. Boromir could be trusted to back his father and his father's interests no matter what, while Faramir (who was more his father's intellectual equal), was less easily controllable and might decide to side with the King. In another thread, it was mentioned that in his youth Aragorn, as Thorongil, was perceived by Denethor as a rival. Denethor's father, Ecthelion, liked Thorongil more than he did Denethor. Thorongil and Gandalf were friends, Denethor and Gandalf were not.

From Appendix A:
... many believed that Denethor ... had discovered who the stranger Thorongil in truth was, and suspected that he and Mithrandir designed to supplant him.

So, Denethor probably saw Faramir (who was also a friend of Gandalf) as a Royalist -- someone who would bow to Aragorn's claim without a struggle -- and therefore as something of a traitor to his father's interests. On the other hand, Denethor knew Boromir "was loyal to me and no wizard's pupil ... He would have brought me a mighty gift." Denethor was right: Boromir tried to bring the Ring to Gondor and Faramir didn't.

In this Boromir and Denethor were similar: each in his pride tried to use/posess an artifact that was too powerful for him, and so was destroyed. Faramir, because he had no such pride, avoided that fate.

I think Boromir and Faramir would have been a good team if Faramir had been the elder. He could have then controlled Boromir's rash tendencies and directed his energy into useful channels. On the other hand, with Boromir being the elder, I don't think Faramir would have had much influence over him. First, he wouldn't have tried very hard, being content to let Boromir run the show, and second, Boromir would have done exactly as he pleased and not listened much. For example, regarding the trip to Rivendell, Gandalf said: "Boromir claimed the errand and *would not suffer any other to have it*. He was a masterful man and one to take what he desired."

Would Boromir have been a good ruler? Well, I think he would have been strong and competent, but not visionary. Faramir would have been better, for all the reasons everyone has already stated. The same goes for being Steward under King Elessar. While Boromir (once he got over his sulk) would have been loyal and brave, Faramir would be loyal, brave and *insightful*. I like the analogy of Ares and Athena.

King Elessar: Boromir, go take care of the Haradrim problem!
Boromir: All right, I'll go raise 10,000 troops!
King Elessar: Oh ... never mind.

King Elessar: Faramir, go solve the Haradrim problem!
Faramir: Well, I've been studying their culture and have come up with a diplomatic solution that should be mutually beneficial. Or, if you don't like that, I guess I could go beat them up. ... But that would be dumb.
King Elessar: Whatever you think is best.

Not that Aragorn would say any of that. It was just to illustrate a point. smilies/wink.gif

Go, Faramir!

-Lily

[Anborn]

Quoth Faramir-
"We are truth-speakers, we men of Gondor. We boast seldom, and then perform, or die in the attempt. Not if I found it on the highway would I take it I said. Even if I were such a man as to desire this thing, and even though I knew not clearly what this thing was when I spoke, still I should take those words as a vow, and be held by them.

But I am not such a man. Or I am wise enough to know that there are some perils from which a man must flee. Sit at peace!
And be comforted, Samwise"

[ February 22, 2003: Message edited by: Anborn ]

[Calavanya]

I also think that Faramir would be better. Maybe I'm not right, but Boromir was in a way more loved by his father, maybe treated better and approved of. He was more like his father and very proud and there's a certain rashness about him. Faramir is wiser and takes everything into account, thinks of the consequences for all mankind. He knows who is the ruler of the ring and who made it, that is, he finds out about it and never thinks of laying his hand on something so deadly, because he realizes how deadly and deceiving the ring and his master are. On the other hand, Boromir was taken by the ring's power, but from the very beginning, he thought the ring could bring only prosperity to his people, he doesn't realize what it really represents, that in fact it is a trap and leads to distruction. And I also think that Faramir wasn't fairly portrayed in the movie.

[Saxony Tarn]

having now just seen the second movie, i have to say that i for one am very happy with PJ's Faramir -- i felt he was far too one-sided in the book (heck, both brothers were archetypes, really) and PJ made them both human beings.

NOW i'd like to see how he pulls the whole poison dart - critical fever - help, my Dad is trying to burn me alive sequence...

|_|] <-- it comes in pints, and this one's for you!

s.t.

[Liriodendron]

Hmmm, that's an interesting thought! He was rather one sided in the book! smilies/smile.gif I think he will come across much better with more footage. Remember how awful Galadriel seemed in the theatrical release of FoTR. So much moaning and hand wringing over the horrible treatment the beloved Lady of Lorien recieved. Then the extended version... the wrongs were righted! That one shot of Galadriel smiling in the sunshine to Gimli, ah! smilies/smile.gif I am waiting for more good things with Faramir. Hopefully the actor can deliver! Boromir blew me away, if Faramir comes close to that, it will be wonderful. (IMO) Oh yes, I think Faramir was better fit to rule! The more thoughtful of the two!

[ February 24, 2003: Message edited by: Liriodendron ]

[Saxony Tarn]

lots of good perspectives in here, especially on some of those posts that take at least two readings to digest fully. Now pardon me while i throw out this bone -- this has been bouncing around in my head for as long as this thread has...

Mention has been made of Boromir bossing Faramir around in the past, and somewhere -- i think on this board when someone quoted the Prof.'s Letters -- i seem to recall hearing that Tolkien himself had a rather overbearing sibling, who might easily have been an unintentional model (recalling similar things said about milord Steward as well).

Anyone wonder if he was perhaps taking some aggression out vicariously? (as in, "Ha ha, you pompous windbag, let's see you how like it when something you dismiss as harmless brings you to a shameful end as it hoodwinks you into betraying everything for which you stand!" or something like that) Yeah, yeah, i know T. himself insisted that there was no deep symbolism behind his tale, but... i've been digging through the appendices in the back for a good year now working on a fanfic involving these lads, and some times, when i'm trying to reverse-engineer the dynamics of their relationship, it does make me wonder.

|_|) <-- it comes in pints, and this one's for you!

[forever]

I think Faramir overall was best because of his Numenorian characteristics - he was fairer, calmer and more valiant. Also the other question - why did Denethor let Boromir go? Well Boromir insisted to go to Rivendell.
Faramir got a few lessons from Gandalf, who is also a good judgment of character!

[thesandman762]

i just wanted to say that Boromirs weakness did not lie only in the ring, the ring only brought his traits out. As soon as Boromir saw the ring, his thoughts went to power and war, not for the end of an evil weapon. It is said that teh ring "improves" the skills and traits of the bearer. Could it be that it improved Boromir's fighting "spirit"?

[Julles]

They will both be a great leader. Esepecially in different circumstances.
Boromir is a great warrior. He'll a great leader in the time of crisis, or in the time of war.
Farmir, who is more like a diplomat and persuasive will be a good king during the time of peace, preventing the wars.
Their weekness might be Boromir might turn tyrannical king, and Farmir will succumb easily.

[Turin]

I think given the time in which these events take place, Boromir would have made the better leader as Minis Tirith was in need of defence and if it fell so would all of Middle Earth.

[Noliel]

I would say Faramir.He is the kind of person who thinks before he acts,while Boromir is rather driven by his emotions.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Actually, one might say they complimented each other very nicely. A battle-hardened, masterful one, and a level-headed, thoughtful one. And though Boromir tended to be bossy, I think he'd be more apt to listen to Faramir's opinion if his father hadn't picked him as favorite and shunted Faramir. Actually, it's almost too bad Boromir died, as when Aragorn returned he would've had quite the council, a very effective, very good one for one. It's kind of a shame, Boromir didn't get to see his father go insane and commit suicide, and almost take his little brother with him. Things would've happened just a little differently, although I don't doubt Denethor wouldn't have despaired in the first place, and so it wouldn't have happened. But when Denethor had either given up rule to Aragorn, or died of old age, things would have been better, I think, concerning bitterness and decay of the kingdom.

Which brings up another question.
Would Boromir have looked into the Palantir? He was certainly as proud and strong as his father, just not as wise. Or would Faramir's opinion and words have been enough to sway him otherwise? If so, how would IT'S presence affect their leadership?

[Son of Fire]

Okay everybody, a while ago it was said that perhaps Denethor loved Faramir more, but showed more to Boromir. I would like to point out that boromir in its roots seems to say "boro" precious "mir" jewel, while "fara" less loved or far away and mir is the same. So, therefore, as tolkien chose almost every name very specifically, we can see that this is not true. Also, Boromir was somewhat of a control freak in the book and hardly bows to the leadership of Aragorn and it can be argued that he desired the ring to become more powerful and would have been happy to take it. Faramir, howver, had the chance to seize the ring and only helped frodo and sam in their quest without trying to take it. A king who desired only conquest would have led Gondor only to failure but one who was willing to strategise and be valiant in battle when it was necessary would be able to beat use Gondor's waning strength.

[Faramir Fan]

I finally came out of lurkerdom, to post on this topic. I have been researching the relationship between Faramir, Boromir and Denethor for a writing project I am doing.

Although I am in agreement with most people here, that Faramir would be the better leader, I think that some times Boromir gets the short end of the stick.

Boromir was loved by his people, and especially his father. But the one thing that you keep forgeting is that Faramir loved him too. My question keeps going back to why.

In most relationships, the overbearing older bully is envied by the younger sibling, but not loved, at least not the way Faramir loved Boromir. I honestly don't see him as being the bully, but more the protector.

I have been trying to flesh out the story between Boromir and Faramir because we have none. Here are a few facts.

Faramir wanted to go to Rivendell, but Boromir persuaded his father and the elders that he was the one to go. Had it been just a glory finding mission, Faramir, I doubt would have thought so well of him. But in some ways, he was more torn up about the fact that he should have been the one to go, and that Denethor had decided poorly. Faramir's guilt was overwhelming, by the fact that he refered to it so many times.

I believe that part of the reason Boromir convinced his father to send himself instead of Faramir was because he was stronger and more travelled (accepting the vain, arrogance of his personality), but I would like to think part of him realized that Denethor wanted to send Faramir because he was...well more expendable.

I get the feeling that there is an protective older brother, somewhere in the character of Boromir for he of anyone would be able to see first hand the treatment Faramir was recieving from Denethor. I often wonder if Tolkein thought the same, giving us one view of Boromir in the first book, a window of another as he dies, only to be further explored, but the thoughts of those who were the closest to him.

Just some random thoughts...

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Poor Boromir! he's really getting pounded on this thread. However to bring up a few salient points:

Clearly Boromir was the more charismatic of the two brothers. Beregond, Faramir's biggest fan, admits to Pippin that his hero was less esteemed by the people of Gondor than Boromir. And we mustn't forget the tremendous impact Boromir's personality and example has on the two younger Hobbits, who spend the rest of their lives living up to the chivalric code he taught them.

Boromir has, probably quite consciously, shaped himself into the kind of leader his people need at this critical time in their history, a Captain of War not a philosopher king. But to assume he was *merely* a warrior would be to make the same mistake as the Gondorim who assumed Faramir was 'merely' a scholar. However unlike his brother Boromir never got the chance to show any other facets of his character.

To his considerable credit Boromir, though accustomed to lead, accepts the command of first Gandalf and then Aragorn. At no time does he contest their authority, even when he doesn't like their decisions. He gives his opinions when asked then shuts up and follows orders like a good soldier. This indicates no small degree of self discipline.

Boromir is, I would say the 'born leader' of the two, able to inspire and capture the imaginations of his men and the people of Gondor. Faramir on the other hand while able to command obedience and affection from his immediate followers, and inspire passionate devotion in a few individuals, is probably too quiet and introverted to appeal to the masses.

The brothers would indeed have made a fine team, their strengths and weaknesses perfectly complimentary.

[Yavanna Kementari]

I completely agree that Boromir and Faramir complete each other. They would have made an excellent team!!

I also believe what Faramir Fan said about Boromirs love for Faramir. He saw that Denethor favored him over his brother. And in that Boromir tried to give him the love that and encouragment that Denethor wasn't giving to him. I see Boromir like that because of the way he cared for the Merry and Pippin. He seemed very fatherly to them, as I am sure he was to his brother. I believe as well that is why Boromir wanted to go to Rivendel and didn't want Faramir to go.
I think Boromir would have made a great leader. I know he would have. The people loved and revered him. He was the future Steward of Gondor. And would have brought victory to Gondor in times of war because he was a great warrior.

Faramir would also have been a good leader as well. He is very diplomatic and levelheaded. He would have kept his land well in times of peace because he was well spoken.

This might sound bad, but perhaps it is better that Denethor died before Gondor was restored to Aragorn. Denethor wanted nothing more than to see Boromir rule after his time had come to an end. He may have gone insane anyway knowing that his son would never rule, or finally seeing the King return to his kingdom after such a long age.

I believe that had Boromir lived Aragorn might have chosen both of them to be Stewards be cause one complimented the other so well, it would have been folly to chose just one half of something seemingly so complete. IMHO -(~<~>YAVANNA
p.s. Every one that has posted has had excellent points of view on this topic. GREAT THREAD!!! smilies/smile.gif

[The Saucepan Man]

One point that hasn't come out yet is Faramir's seeming inability to stand up to his Father. He is somewhat cowed by Denethor's mistreatment of him. I always felt when I read the passages in Minas Tirith that he should turn round and just tell his Father a few home truths.

Now, I agree with most of what has been said about Faramir being the more wise and level-headed for the two, but it doesn't bode well for a potential statesman not to be able to stand up to a bit of bullying by a strong character ...

[Faramir Fan]

Agreed, he doesn't exactly stand up to Denethor, but he does get his digs in...

"Do you wish then," said Faramir, "that our places had been exchanged?"
"Yes, I wish that indeed," said Denethor. "For Boromir was loyal to me and no wizard's pupil. He would have remembered his father's need, and would not have squandered what fortune gave. He would have brought me a mighty gift."

For a moment Faramir's restraint gave way. "I would ask you, my father, to remember why it was that I, not he, was in Ithilien. On one occasion at least your counsel has prevailed, not long ago. It was the Lord of the City that gave the errand to him."

Given Denethor's position in the city, I suspect if Faramir had said any more, he would have been thrown in jail for treason...

Another poster brought up the point that I left out...Pippin clearly loved Boromir as well, proving that by placing his sword at Denethor's feet.

So coming back to the Faramir/Boromir debate, I would like Faramir as the one behind the scenes, plotting and deciding which course to take next. But if I was on the actual battlefield, Boromir would be the man I would want leading the charge...

[The Saucepan Man]

but he does get his digs in...

But do you think that Boromir would have put up with the sort of jibes that Faramir received from Denethor? OK, so it's hypothetical because Denethor would not have treated his darling Boromir in such a way. But, had he been in the same position, I suspect that Boromir would have responded in a far more robust fashion than his brother ...

[Helkahothion]

About that who is the best leader:

Didn't it say in Lotr that Faramir had the abilety to control man and Animal? You all must know that part where Faramir stays on his horse when being hunted by the wringwraiths. I think that this makes him the best leader. And Faramir might not have been strong, but agilety is better then strength in my opinion. As is stated by Pippin: The strongest man can be killed with one arrow. So I think Faramir surpasses Boromir at all fronts.

Greetings,

Anuion
________
Airstream (http://www.dodge-wiki.com/wiki/Chrysler_Airstream)

[Cibbwin]

I think they would have been equally good leaders. They both have nobility, benevolence and courage. But, as someone said before me, it depends on which you prefer. Faramir might take too long to decide on an issue, while Boromir wouldn't take long enough. Sometimes you need the wisdom and patience, other times you need the brute force.

I really like how Andephelien put it, it's an Ares or Athena relationship. Now as to who I'd rather have? I'm not sure. Boromir is my favorite character, but I'd want different people for different purposes. If there is an invasion coming and the king is not sure wether to counterattack or to wait and see what happens, I'd want Boromir to take his place. If it was a case like, say... a soldier robbed the palace because his wife was dying and he could not afford the medicines, I want Faramir in power.

[ April 12, 2003: Message edited by: Cibbwin ]

[Helkahothion]

Cibbwin said:
Sometimes you need the wisdom and patience, other times you need the brute force.

Yush Cibbwin really said that.

I don't agree. You never need brutal force. Without tactic's brutal force is useless and without tactic's your not a leader. If you don't use them, you could might as well just charge your enemy head on. Faramir took out a large band of enemies who even had Oliphaunts with them. I don't think using brute force would have done that. Brute force did not help in any situation.

Greetings,

Anuion
________
VT series (http://www.honda-wiki.org/wiki/Honda_VT_series)

[Cibbwin]

Well, I see it along the lines of the Iraq war right now. And yes, I am in favor of it. Would you rather we wait for them to attack us, or flush them out? I would want Boromir in that position to make that choice.

And yes, stealth in some cases is a good thing, I agree with that. smilies/tongue.gif

[Failivrin]

i think boromir. for me, faramir was just too perfect. boromir with his flaws made me love him. if we are talking about leadership then faramir, but boromir is my favourite

[Helkahothion]

Failivrin said:
i think boromir. for me, faramir was just too perfect. boromir with his flaws made me love him. if we are talking about leadership then faramir, but boromir is my favourite .
Yush Failivrin really said that

We ARE talking about leadership.
________
VAPIR NO2 REVIEW (http://vaporizer.org/portable)

[Tinuviel the Nightingale]

Faramir was more calmed, level-headed, and gave careful thought to whatever he did. I admire him for that, although Boromir is alright, just misunderstood.

[Daisy Brambleburr]

Leader-wise, I'd say that Faramir would make the better leader, because he is more patient, wiser and perhaps has better judgement than Boromir. Therefor he would probably be more well liked with his people. However, Boromir is the better warrior of the two (im my opinion) and as someone said, more heroic. But then again, Boromir would have made a pretty decent leader as well. Because he is such a good warrior and very brave that would also gain his people's respect. But like many other people, I still go for Faramir.

But my personal character preferance is Boromir. I've always had a soft spot for him, basically because he has flaws, and he isn't perfect. His heart is in the right place.

[tinewelt]

i cannot find the quote now due to time, but its said that in Faramir the blood of Numeanor runs nearly true. His wit, composure and decision making make him a much better leader. Boromir was more physical and stronger (which was admitted my Faramir, i think). But, i believe Boromir would be more apt to lead his men into a rash decision than Faramir.

~Namarie~