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Mithadan
12-26-2000, 07:15 PM
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When you read the Silmarillion (and perhaps more so with HoME), there is one single event which sets things tumbling towards the events of the First and later Ages. This event is the summons of the Valar, calling the elves to live in Valinor. The Nature of the elves was to love, foster, cultivate and preserve Middle Earth. The Summons of the Valar tears the elves away from their fundamental purpose. Yes, some declined the summons and others turned back, but ultimately the Noldor rebelled to return to Middle Earth resulting in a disasterous war which shaped the following ages. Was the Summons of the Valar a tragic mistake which itself doomed the Noldor as well as the elves living still in Middle Earth?

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

The Barrow-Wight
12-26-2000, 07:32 PM
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Re: Did the Valar make a huge mistake?

The Valar made the summons to protect the Elves from Melkor, right? Or at least that was their motivation. So it is neccesary to evaluated what did happen with what might have happened (something I'm not prepared to do at the moment).

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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Gwaihir the Windlord
12-26-2000, 08:25 PM
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Re: Did the Valar make a huge mistake?

No, I don't think they did.
The Elves, stuck by the bay of Helcar and hemmed there by Morgoth, were neither enriching Middle-Earth nor acheiving anything. The Valar spread them right accross Middle-Earth when they summoned the Eldar to Valinor, and in so doing allowed the Elves to work their healing powers on the land.

Caliquendi, the elves that reached Valinor, were twice as powerful as Moriquendi, the Elves that never made it (with the exception of the Sindar of Beleriand, who drew close; and even then they would not have without the teaching of the Valar-educated Noldor). Without the Valar, all Elves would be Avari; rustic folk that would have dwindled quickly in the First Age and had no hope of ever defeating Morgoth.

Gwaihir the Windlord http://www.barrowdowns.comthe barrow-downs</A>
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Orald
12-27-2000, 01:06 AM
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Re: Did the Valar make a huge mistake?

I have to say that the Valar made a big mistake. Not in summoning the Eldar(that was a good decision). But in forsaking Middle Earth in the first place. After the first thing Melkor did wrong, the Valar should have cast him into the outer void, then Middle Earth could have been nice and peaceful for all of the Children of Iluvatar. But then again evil is bad yet it is good for it to have been.

</p>

HerenIstarion
12-27-2000, 03:44 AM
Wight
Posts: 249

I deem they did. If only Valar had listened to Ulmo on their summit where the fate of Quendi was discussed, much evil would have been avoided afterwards.

Saulotus
12-27-2000, 09:46 AM
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Re: Re: Did the Valar make a huge mistake?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> After the first thing Melkor did wrong, the Valar should have cast him into the outer void, then Middle Earth could have been nice and peaceful for all of the Children of Iluvatar.<hr></blockquote>
Misdemeanor Capital Punishment advocate here I see. Definately not a 3 strikes person.

Did the Valar make a mistake with the summoning of the Elves?
NOPE!
The themes needed certain events to unfold. Could those have happened otherwise? Possibly. Would they have been as effective? Nope.

Did the Valar make a mistake in 'abandoning' ME?
NOPE!
Same situation.

</p>

Voronwe
12-27-2000, 12:27 PM
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Re: Re: Did the Valar make a huge mistake?

In my opinnion, summoning the elves was the best decision that the Valar could have made. True, the summons caused 'many woes', as Tolkien says, but the outcome could hardly have been any better had the Valar done otherwise. Had the elves been left to their own devices in Middle Earth they would have had a lot of trouble with the evil creatures - and Sauron - that were still lurking about there.

Furthermore, had the elves never come to Valinor and looked upon the greatest of the Ainur and the makers of Arda, the glory and the knowledge of the Children of Iluvatar would have been diminished.

As to casting Melkor into the void at the first hint of evil, apart from the obvious fact that some of the Valar though Melkor could be reformed, what makes you think that the Valar would have been able to do this. Melkor was the greatest of the Ainur in the beginning, until he spent his strength in hatred. Also, although an Arda free from evil is all well and good, it's not the sort of place you really want to read about, is it?


-Voronw
"voyaging the Dark behind the world, a glimmering and fugitive star."</p>

Mithadan
12-27-2000, 01:52 PM
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Re: Re: Did the Valar make a huge mistake?

The Valar's &quot;decision&quot; to &quot;abandon&quot; Middle Earth cannot be considered separately from the Summons to the elves. After Morgoth assaulted the Lamps, the Valar: (1) worked to prevent Middle Earth from coming apart; (2) retreated, regrouped and fortified their new dwelling in Valinor; and (3) forebore attacking Morgoth because the coming of the elves was expected. The decision to abandon Middle Earth did nor really occur until the Valar (hastily) assaulted Utumno and Summoned the elves. Their other option would have been to return to Middle Earth, in whole or in part, and tutor the elves in the lands where they belonged. This decision may not have been &quot;preordained&quot; by the Music. In Morgoth's Ring, there is a brief discussion held between Manwe and Iluvatar in which Eru questions the wisdom of summoning the elves to dwell in Valinor.

Would the elves have faded faster? Why? Men had not yet come. Would they have been less glorious? Perhaps. But some may have voluntarily gone to Valinor, others would have been taught by the Valar, and Middle Earth would have been the better for it, having both the elves and greater attention from the Valar. The decision of the Valar could be characterized as selfish and lazy. Valinor was beautiful, they wanted the elves to live there and fixing up Middle Earth would have been a lot of work.

A recurring theme in JRRT's work is the &quot;Fall&quot;, i.e. the failure of individuals or whole races to live up to their potential, to follow the right path, or to attempt to be other than they should be. Examples: the marring of Feanor; the rebellion of the Noldor; the fall of Numenor; the corruption of Saruman; the withering of Denethor; and even Frodo's failure to cast the Ring into Orodruin. The result of such a &quot;fall&quot; is always disasterous to the persons involved. The Valar's failure to take up the reins of the governance of Middle Earth and leave the elves where they belonged was such a fall; one which wove the history of the following three ages. (Religious connotations are unavoidable here I guess but it is not my intent to turn this into a discussion on theology) Alternatively, could this &quot;fall&quot; (if it was one and I obviously think it was) have been attributable to Arda Marred? Were even the Valar affected by Morgoth's infusion of his power into the world?

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

Inziladun
12-28-2000, 12:36 PM
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Re: Re: Did the Valar make a huge mistake?

A primary reason for the Summons is obviously selfish. The Valar wanted the companionship of the elves,and to have students they could teach. I don't think it was coincidence that those were also Aule's reasons for making the Dwarves.
But there may have been another reasoning involved.
Besides their obvious physical and mental gifts,the one thing that sets the elves apart from all others in ME is their immortality. Perhaps in was only in a Deathless Land,Valinor,that elves could truly be happy and avoid some
potential problems. Living forever in an enviroment that does not could be a curse. Boredom and elitism could ensue,which could have caused the elves to become cruel and
exert dominance over other races. This attitude is hinted at with Saeros of Doriath,and his obvious contempt for men. It is even evident in Thingol to an extent. Maybe elves really didn't belong in ME.
But of course if they had all answered the Summons,or if the Noldor had not returned,Men and Dwarves would not have had the benifit of their teaching,and I think would have become servants of Morgoth. Maybe the Valar made the wrong decision for the right reasons. Or maybe they,as all creatures,simply acted as the One designed.


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Mithadan
01-02-2001, 06:56 PM
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Re: Re: Did the Valar make a huge mistake?

Or maybe they were merely selfish and Eru would have wanted the elves to stay in Middle earth. Only when men arose did the earth and its creatures begin to age more quickly. The elven influence could have &quot;healed&quot; some of the damage done by Morgoth (he was, after all in Mandos' custody). And if the tale proceeded with Morgoth being released and again rebelling and escaping to Middle Earth, the Valar might have followed promptly, rather than refusing to follow the exiled Noldor. Yes, its all &quot;what if&quot;. But in JRRT's world, one &quot;fall&quot; is followed by inexorable consequences.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

Madhros
07-31-2002, 04:37 PM
Did the Valar make a huge mistake?
You bet they did.
Then Manw said to the Valar: 'This is the counsel of Ilvatar in my heart: that we should take up again the mastery of Arda, at whatsoever cost, and deliver the Quendi from the shadow of Melkor.'
Look at the interesting thing. Eru in no part says that the elves should be taken to Valinor, justt to be delivered from the shadow of Melkor.

obloquy
07-31-2002, 05:16 PM
You bet they did.

Are you going to provide an argument to support this?

The text you quote was as the Valar debated going to war against Melkor, not the summoning of the Quendi to Valinor. After the Battle of the Powers, Melkor was imprisoned in Mandos -- the Valar's job was done.

The Quendi were summoned, not because of Iluvatar's counsel to Manwe, but because...
the most part feared for the Quendi in the dangerous world amid the deceits of the starlit dusk; and they were filled moreover with the love of the beauty of the Elves and desired their fellowship.

Madhros
07-31-2002, 05:38 PM
Are you going to provide an argument to support this?
You bet I will:
Long they dwelt in their first home by the water under stars, and they walked the Earth in wonder; and they began to make speech and to give names to all things that they perceived. Themselves they named the Quendi, signifying those that speak with voices; for as yet they had met no other living things that spoke or sang.
The advice of Eru was in taking Melkor, which they did, lately but did.
The Valar themselves had forsaken ME, and it had many wounds which were the devise of Melkor. If the Quendi had stayed in ME they could have made ME a more beautiful place.
The back point is that the Elves would have not learned from the Valar, but they would have grown as a race, as those of the Teleri that stayed.
There would have been no Rebellion of the Noldor and the Majority of Men would have been treated better in the world.

obloquy
07-31-2002, 09:51 PM
The Valar themselves had forsaken ME...

No they hadn't. But continue, please....

...and it had many wounds which were the devise of Melkor. If the Quendi had stayed in ME they could have made ME a more beautiful place.

The Elves could not have wholly repaired Middle-earth -- it was doomed to be marred in the Music of the Ainur, when Melkor's theme arose in discord. Still, many of the Quendi did stay in Middle-earth. Why didn't those Elves fix what Melkor had done?

The back point is that the Elves would have not learned from the Valar...

You're drastically underestimating this little point. The noblest, mightiest, wisest, most skilled, and most beautiful of the Elves were all of the Calaquendi, excluding Thingol's offspring. This is no coincidence.

...but they would have grown as a race, as those of the Teleri that stayed.

"Grown as a race"? What does that mean?

There would have been no Rebellion of the Noldor and the Majority of Men would have been treated better in the world.

The Rebellion of the Noldor was not because the Elves were invited to Aman. They were free to leave any time they wished. The Rebellion was a result of Melkor's cunning deception and divisiveness. I think Men got the treatment they deserved, pretty much. The ones who earned it were respected, and the rest of them were held in suspicion. How, out of curiosity, would it have bettered the situation for Men if the rest of the Quendi had remained in Middle-earth?

[ August 01, 2002: Message edited by: obloquy ]

Lothiriel Silmarien
07-31-2002, 10:03 PM
It was fate. They would have come to the West in time anyway.

Madhros
07-31-2002, 10:28 PM
No they hadn't. But continue, please....
When I say that the Valar had forsaken ME I meant that they left literally ME and dwelt in Valinor. They forsook ME in a physical sense.
Behind the walls of the Pelri the Valar established their domain in that region which is called Valinor, and there were their houses, their gardens, and their towers. In that guarded land the Valar gathered great store of light and an the fairest things that were saved from the ruin; and many others yet fairer they made anew, and Valinor became more beautiful even than Middle-earth in the Spring of Arda; and it was blessed, for the Deathless dwelt there, and there naught faded nor withered, neither was there any stain upon flower or leaf in that land, nor any corruption or sickness in anything that lived; for the very stones and waters were hallowed.
The Elves could not have wholly repaired Middle-earth -- it was doomed to be marred in the Music of the Ainur, when Melkor's theme arose in discord. Still, many of the Quendi did stay in Middle-earth. Why didn't those Elves fix what Melkor had done?
You're right, they couldn't fix it completely, but they held kingdoms (Doriath) that was a sort of haven. You have to remember too that Melkor returned to ME to continue his work, and without the aid of the Valar, they couldn't defeat him. If Melkor had remained chained, the elves would have made ME a better place, but not perfect and the effects of the Marring of Melkor would be there, but to a much lesser deegre.
You're drastically underestimating this little point. The noblest, mightiest, wisest, most skilled, and most beautiful of the Elves were all of the Calaquendi, excluding Thingol's offspring. This is no coincidence.
Why is it that the Valar couldn't come to ME and teach the elves? As the Valar did to Men in the making of Nmenor? Is that so far fetched?
"Grown as a race"? What does that mean?
When I say grown as a race, I mean that in order for a race to develop their culture and craft, they needed time to learn themselves. Sure they could have others teach them, but they would have missed the part of gaining knowledge by themselves and the joy that it brings.
This reminds of me of a passage in Morgoth's Ring: The 'Tale of Adanel'
In that time we called often and the Voice answered. But it seldom answered our questions, saying only: 'First seek to find the answer for yourselves. For ye will have joy in the finding, and so grow from childhood and become wise. Do not seek to leave childhood before your time.'
The Rebellion was a result of Melkor's cunning deception and divisiveness.
And who it was that freed Melkor?
How, out of curiosity, would it have bettered the situation for Men if the rest of the Quendi had remained in Middle-earth?
Well, IMO, it think that if the elves had remained in ME, and Melkor was first chained and then released, I would hope that the Valar would have intervened a lot sooner, (because there would be no Doom of the Noldor) because they knew that neither the elves or men were able to vanquish Melkor and in doing so, erasing a large years of suffering.
Oh, and when i refer to the Valar, i mean Manwe. I would hope that with Ulmo, things would have been very different indeed.

[ August 01, 2002: Message edited by: Madhros ]

obloquy
07-31-2002, 11:50 PM
You have to remember too that Melkor returned to ME to continue his work, and without the aid of the Valar, they couldn't defeat him. If Melkor had remained chained, the elves would have made ME a better place, but not perfect and the effects of the Marring of Melkor would be there, but to a much lesser deegre.

Wait a minute, we're talking about the Valar's decision to invite the Quendi to Valinor. You're completely correct when you assert that if Melkor hadn't been naughty, things would've been great. But that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Why is it that the Valar couldn't come to ME and teach the elves? As the Valar did to Men in the making of Nmenor? Is that so far fetched?

No, it's not far-fetched at all. In fact, I think the Valar probably would have spent a lot of time in Middle-earth with the Quendi. As it happened, though, they chose to invite the Quendi to Valinor first, and the invitation was accepted.

When I say grown as a race, I mean that in order for a race to develop their culture and craft, they needed time to learn themselves. Sure they could have others teach them, but they would have missed the part of gaining knowledge by themselves and the joy that it brings.

Again, just compare the Calaquendi and the Moriquendi. Who was better off? At the same time, I do think it was a mistake of the Valar to neglect the Quendi who chose to remain in Middle-earth.

And who it was that freed Melkor?

Manwe, as he promised to do. You may have read Osanwe-Kenta before, but I'll direct your attention to this particular bit: If we speak last of the "folly" of Manwe and the weakness and unwariness of the Valar, let us beware how we judge. In the histories, indeed, we may be amazed and grieved to read how (seemingly) Melkor deceived and cozened others, and how even Manwe appears at times almost a simpleton compared with him: as if a kind but unwise father were treating a wayward child who would assuredly in time perceive the error of his ways. Whereas we, looking on and knowing the outcome, see now that Melkor knew well the error of his ways, but was fixed in them by hate and pride beyond return. He could read the mind of Manwe, for the door was open; but his own mind was false and even if the door seemed open, there were doors of iron within closed for ever.
How otherwise would you have it? Should Manwe and the Valar meet secrecy with subterfuge, treachery with falsehood, lies with more lies? If Melkor would usurp their rights, should they deny his? Can hate overcome hate? Nay, Manwe was wiser; or being ever open to Eru he did His will, which is more than wisdom. He was ever open because he had nothing to conceal, no thought that it was harmful for any to know, if they could comprehend it. Indeed Melkor knew his will without questioning it; and he knew that Manwe was bound by the commands and injunctions of Eru, and would do this or abstain from that in accordance with them, always, even knowing that Melkor would break them as it suited his purpose. Thus the merciless will ever count on mercy, and the liars make use of truth; for if mercy and truth are withheld from the cruel and the lying, they have ceased to be honoured.

Are you going to criticize Manwe's decision?

Well, IMO, it think that if the elves had remained in ME, and Melkor was first chained and then released, I would hope that the Valar would have intervened a lot sooner, (because there would be no Doom of the Noldor) because they knew that neither the elves or men were able to vanquish Melkor and in doing so, erasing a large years of suffering.

Again, you're right, Melkor caused a lot of trouble. And again, What does this have to do with the Valar inviting the Quendi to Valinor?

Kuruharan
08-01-2002, 07:32 AM
Are you going to criticize Manwe's decision?


Yes, I still would. If they thought that he had really reformed then they could have kept him chained up and allowed him to do small, simple tasks that would not cause all sorts of trouble. At some point you have to take the suffering of an entire world over the case of one being. Releasing Melkor strikes me as being rather, well quite frankly, stupid.

However, I suspect that I am approaching this question from a different perspective than the Professor, and that our two viewpoints are perhaps irreconcilable.

(But I'm not changing mine. smilies/wink.gif smilies/tongue.gif )

[ August 01, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

Madhros
08-01-2002, 09:22 PM
First, I want to reiterate that when I refer to the Valar, I mean Manw.
, What does this have to do with the Valar inviting the Quendi to Valinor?

The problem that inviting the Quendi to Valinor is that it was almost unthinkable that an elf who saw Valinor would want to remain in ME. (Exception of Elw.) Because Valinor was so much beautiful than ME, it would be logical to assume that most of the Elves would be willing to go there and forsake ME.
My reasoning is this:
If the Valar had not summoned the Quendi to ME, they would have been more involved teaching the Elves in ME and therefore helping to heal the wounds inflicted by Melkor. The elves would have grown in ability and wisdom by having that contact with the Valar. They would not be as "great" as the Caliquendi but would have been better than the Moriquendi.
When Melkor had returned to ME, the Valar would have realised that the Elves could not defeat Morgoth by themselves and hopefully would have intervened a lot sooner, erasing great years of pain to both Elves and Men in ME.
Are you going to criticize Manwe's decision?
I will criticize Manw's decision because if they held Melkor as a prisioner for ever, as they did after the War of Wrath, a lot of hurt could have been prevented.

HerenIstarion
12-19-2002, 04:43 AM
I will criticize Manw's decision because if they held Melkor as a prisioner for ever, as they did after the War of Wrath, a lot of hurt could have been prevented.

quite true, but false at the same time, since Morgoth is cast out into the Void, not Melkor. The change of name imposed by Feanor signifies more than may meet the eye at the first glance. The spirit of Melkor is irredeemable only after his killing of threes and Finwe, and with the name he looses his status of a Vala, which is physically expressed in loss of ability to change the shape, i.e. bodily clothing. So, to say it shortly, there was no sound argument to cast Melkor into the Void until he became Morgoth and no one could deny him opportunity to repent by forcible action. Or, even more shortly, freedom of will is a gift of Eru not to Eruhini only, but to Ainur as well (or maybe even in the first place, since Ainur exercise it before time in making the Great Music)

obloquy
12-19-2002, 01:00 PM
I think even more important than your points, HerenIstarion, are Tolkien's own, which are quoted above as well: Should Manwe and the Valar meet secrecy with subterfuge, treachery with falsehood, lies with more lies? If Melkor would usurp their rights, should they deny his? Can hate overcome hate? Nay, Manwe was wiser; or being ever open to Eru he did His will, which is more than wisdom. He was ever open because he had nothing to conceal, no thought that it was harmful for any to know, if they could comprehend it. Indeed Melkor knew his will without questioning it; and he knew that Manwe was bound by the commands and injunctions of Eru, and would do this or abstain from that in accordance with them, always, even knowing that Melkor would break them as it suited his purpose. Thus the merciless will ever count on mercy, and the liars make use of truth; for if mercy and truth are withheld from the cruel and the lying, they have ceased to be honoured.

Manw was such a purely good being that he was incapable of any injustice; revoking the opportunity for Melkor to repent and be redeemed would have been unjust. Was it even within Manw's rights to do so? Manw and Melkor were coequal beings -- at least, neither of them were of a greater order of being with an inherent right to subject the other. Manw's was not the ultimate will in itself; he was only a servant of that ultimate will. Melkor's place in a made him answerable, not to Manw, but to Eru himself, even if it was Manw who expressed Eru's thoughts.

I disagree a little with your take on the significance of the name change. Melkor was never 'officially' renamed Morgoth; it's more of a nickname that stuck. Though he was no longer counted a Vala, he never ceased being Melkor, and he was still afforded the free will and rights of his station in Middle-earth.

Man-of-the-Wold
12-19-2002, 01:25 PM
Mistake? Paradise Lost?

I agree with the notion of the Valar making mistakes (eg, letting Melkor go) Like God, they may be all-good, but are they really all powerful. They could not cleanse Middle-Earth of all of Morgoth's hurt, and they wanted the Elves to live in the Light, and did not force them, too. There selfish desire for companions and pupils was I believe secondary. So, the intent was good.

But Ulmo warned against it, and he was right. Although in the end most Elves must go to the Aman and away from "Mortal" Lands, it is wrong to bring people too close in contact with power far greater themselves. The same applies to Men in terms of association with the High Elves, and of living in Numenor in proximity to the Aman.

But such unwisdom by the Valar is a believe destiny within the Music of Ainur.

HerenIstarion
12-20-2002, 08:12 AM
I think even more important than your points, HerenIstarion, are Tolkien's own,

Accepted. Though you are too severe to my humble person. Count as comments are preceded by "apart from reasons given above..."

obloquy
12-20-2002, 10:26 AM
Ah, I did not mean to be severe! And I didn't mean to dismiss your comments as unimportant. My apologies.

HerenIstarion
12-21-2002, 02:11 AM
accepted too smilies/smile.gif

tangerine
12-22-2002, 04:59 PM
No one seems to remeber the role of the Two Trees in this. ME had only the light of the stars, and the Valar summoned the Elves to live in the Light of the Trees, instead of the dark forests where they were more vulnerable (okay, its been said here about a dozen times, but the Trees are interwoven into that purpose)

Madhros
12-22-2002, 10:33 PM
Manw was such a purely good being that he was incapable of any injustice; revoking the opportunity for Melkor to repent and be redeemed would have been unjust. Was it even within Manw's rights to do so? Manw and Melkor were coequal beings -- at least, neither of them were of a greater order of being with an inherent right to subject the other. Manw's was not the ultimate will in itself; he was only a servant of that ultimate will. Melkor's place in a made him answerable, not to Manw, but to Eru himself, even if it was Manw who expressed Eru's thoughts.
Very interesting oblo, but the fact remains that one who has pure intentions like Manw is not infallible, only Ilvatar is. I know that he had noble intentions, but having noble intentions and purposes disables the ability of making mistakes, I think not.
You do have a point with the pardon of Melkor by Manw.

obloquy
12-24-2002, 03:08 AM
the fact remains that one who has pure intentions like Manw is not infallible, only Ilvatar is

You're still missing the full scope of the information provided from Osanwe-Kenta.

One more time I'll point to a portion of the quote: ...Manwe was wiser; or being ever open to Eru he did His will, which is more than wisdom....Manwe was bound by the commands and injunctions of Eru, and would do this or abstain from that in accordance with them, always...

Any decision of Manw's was in accord with Eru's will, which does make Manw infallible. That's not to say that Manw couldn't rebel, but he never did.

Madhros
12-25-2002, 01:47 AM
Not necessarily infallible.
From Morgoth's Ring: Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, The converse of Manw and Eru
There were many such far of Elves who had died in Middle-earth gathered in the Halls of Mandos, but it was not until the death of Mriel in Aman that Manw appealed directly to Eru for counsel. Eru 'accepted and ratified the position' - though making it plain to Manw that the Valar should have contested Melkor's domination of Middle-earth far earlier, and that they had lacked estel: they should have trusted that in a legitimate war Eru would not have permitted Melkor so greatly to damage Arda that the Children could not come, or could not inhabit it
There is a difference between Ilvatar's and Manw's actions.

Lush
12-25-2002, 06:21 PM
In order to properly assess Manw's character, you first have to remember that one can make mistakes knowingly and unknowingly. Based on that, I disagree with oblo when he writes that Manw was infallible; at the same time, Manw is shown as someone who would never do anything "naughty" on purpose.

Having said that, I would also like to state my personal belief that all of Manw's actions, mistakes included, were all meant to be. This would include the summons, and the disastrous results that followed. Did Tolkien not write that evil and mistakes were all done toward the same final purpose of good (whether or not the doer of said deeds, Morgoth/Melkor for example, knew it) ? That's what I walked away from the Silmarillion with.

[ December 25, 2002: Message edited by: Lush ]

lindil
12-26-2002, 05:12 AM
Was the Summons of the Valar a tragic mistake which itself doomed the Noldor as well as the elves living still in Middle Earth?

Yes it was a 'tragic' mistake in that it led to tragedy, but also leaving all of the Elves to M-E may also have been equally tragic. Were not the Avari a 'tragedy of Elven potential'? Should they have had private tutors such as Melian ?

I do not think the Fall/Doom of the Noldor was however a direct result of the summons, it was the result of listening to Morgoth which could/would have just as easily happened in M-E when he returned, and returned he would have, Noldor or not.

Things were amplified in Aman for sure, but Feanor might still have been born [ or some great Noldo like him] who could have taken to much life out of his mother, etc...Yes there would have been no Silmarill's as we know them, but then the mind and hands of Feanor would have been busy at work at something. He would probably have clashed with Elwe himself! or Eol or been seduced perhaps more directly by Morgoth or Sauron upon Morgoth's return.

Morgoth could/probably would still slay the Two Tree's bringing about his flight and return, etc...

I seem to recall several regrets in the Silmarillion [or later HoME] but at 3am I am not going to be able to find them too easily, but what comes to mind [accurate or not] is a]Creating light only for Aman with the Two Trees [ Yavanna was at least upset by it]. Delaying the making of the war upon Morgoth [as quoted so aptly above by Maedhros] and the summoning [OK I did look it up [p.52-3 in my ballantine pb]

Then again the Valar were gathered in council, and they were divided in debate. For some, and of those Ulmo was the chief, held that the Quendi should be left free to walk as they would in Middle-Earth, and with their gifts and skill to order all the lands and heal their hurts. But the most part feared for the Quendi in the dangerous world amid the deceits of the starlit dusk; and they were morever filled with the love of the the beauty of the Elves and desired their fellowship. At the last, therefore, the Valar summoned the Quendi to Valinor...and Mandos broke his silence saying: 'So it is doomed'. From this summons came many woes that afterwards befell.emphasis mine

So it was fated [darkly] that it should happen and that much woe and great tales would be the result.

[ December 26, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

Willow
12-26-2002, 03:34 PM
Now that I finally read the Silmarillion, I can put my two cents in. Curiously, my opinion after reading the book is the same as that of three days ago, when I just read the replies.

I don't think it mattered. Wasn't the reason the Valar summoned the Quendi to Aman to protect them from Morgoth/Melkor, and so they would learn and grow and be companions to the Valar and stuff? If Melkor was laready evil, then it stands to reason that there would have been a confrontation eventually, and the elves would have been involved. Also, maybe it (the summons) did more good than harm. If a confrontation was inevitable, than it was good that the elves were brought over the sea because when they returned, they were able to discern that Melkor was evil, and if they ahd stayed maybe all of them would have turned into orcs (not likely but possible) like some of the Moriquendi did. Think of how much different the confrontation would have been if the elves had not been so committed against Morgoth, and more of them had fallen to evil. Also, if the elves had not gone to Aman, they would not have come back wiser and able to instruct men. Therefore, more men would have fallen to Morgoth, maybe all of them.

Luineglin
12-26-2002, 03:44 PM
well i believe that they did not make a mistake. the elves were sentient beings and could make their own discion to stay or go. which they did. and it was all done with good intentions but as they say the road to he$% is paved with good intensions.

The Sixth Wizard
04-19-2006, 04:23 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dm
Posts: 387</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
When you read the Silmarillion (and perhaps more so with HoME), there is one single event which sets things tumbling towards the events of the First and later Ages. This event is the summons of the Valar, calling the elves to live in Valinor. The Nature of the elves was to love, foster, cultivate and preserve Middle Earth. The Summons of the Valar tears the elves away from their fundamental purpose. Yes, some declined the summons and others turned back, but ultimately the Noldor rebelled to return to Middle Earth resulting in a disasterous war which shaped the following ages. Was the Summons of the Valar a tragic mistake which itself doomed the Noldor as well as the elves living still in Middle Earth?

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>


It's very sad in my opinion that they could make such a mistake, and doom elves to dwindle their amazing traits. The failing of Men as well. But it is quite interesting that such a small mistake could affect three ages so hugely!
Sorry if I sound like a newbie!
Go to
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=12770&highlight=lazy+valar
I wish I knew how to hyperlink :mad: .