Were Balrogs winged?

[Brian The Blue]

Some say yes some say no but does it say in the books weither they were or not? And if so please bring it to my attenetion.

[Zoe]

There is no text that anyone's aware of which describes balrogs as having wings (so there's nothing saying "and then the balrog flapped its wings and flew away" or whatever). But there are bits of texts which can be interpreted in various ways, and these meanings can be 'added together' to come to the conclusion that balrogs were winged or weren't. The problem is, in some cases, the one piece of text can be interpreted either way.

Anyhow, I'm certainly no expert on balrogs. For some more informed opinions, you should probably look in the articles section of www.barrowdowns.com.

[Orald]

I just thought all of you should know this. You see Tolkien and I were really good friends back in the day when I was still in my mothers womb. And he new that this topic would spawn discussion, so he told me to tell all of you that Balrogs didn't have wings, because he thought they would look to much like devils.

[Zoe]

Durelen, that's the poorest argument I've ever heard. ;) Although I must say it is the most original.

[Orald]

The truth, I believe they don't have wings, I only wish that i could have spoken to Tolkien. And if you haven't realized all of my arguments are pretty poor.

[Zoe]

I personally have never pictured them in my mind as having wings - although that's not based on any particular text, that's just my imagination.

Durelen - but that argument was especially poor ;) No, really, I don't think your comments on these boards are poor at all. They're certainly more well-thought-out than mine.

[HerenIstarion]

Wight
Posts: 247

All those who think that Balrogs had wings apply as an argument the duel at the Khazad-dûm bridge. Still, Balrog challenging Gandalf is surrounded by dark cloud likewings. No explicit evidence is given that those were proper wings used to fly. For more information I will repeat above stated advi e - see articles on www.barrowdowns.com :)

...but what they are really like, and what lies beyond them, only those can say who have climbed them...

[the Lorien wanderer]

Yeah, most of your reasoning is poor ;-). Didn't you come up with the Communist thing too?
And no, I don't think Balrogs have wings.

[gamegie]

Well I am sorry but I am certain that Balrogs have wings. As are most depictions of Gandalf and the Balrog correct, they show shadow formed wings on the Balrog.

Durelen, what was that about Tolkien and you being friends????? Do pink elephants have wings too?
:)

[Voronwe]

Well if they did have wings, they were purely for show, otherwise we would certainly have seen a description of a Balrog flying. Take, for example, Gandalf's duel on the bridge and Glorfindel's duel at the eagle's cleft. Both times, the balrog was plunged into an abyss. If the balrogs could fly, then they would certainly have flown out.

Curiously, I am still undecided as to the truth of this matter.

[Mithadan]

Far beneath the ruined halls of Angband, in vaults to which the Valar in the haste of their assault had not descended, Balrogs lurked still, awaiting ever the return of their Lord; and now swiftly they arose, and passing over Hithlum they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire. Sil. p. 81.

"It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall..." Fellowship of the Ring, p. 345.

Undoubtedly, Balrogs are not great fliers, having massive wings, and are unable to fly in close quarters, such as the chasm or near the cliff wall in Gondolin.

[Mister Underhill]

Hehe... The coming of this thread has seemed inevitable for the past couple of weeks, and now here it is at last. I'm throwing in with Mithadan on this one. Lay on, champions of the no-wingers!

[Mithadan]

Nice Olog Hai article Sir Underhill, though you didn't address all the arguments made in that long thread. There, as here, I don't have an ax to grind so I'll leave well enough alone. Honestly, it never occurred to me that Balrogs might not have wings until I started seeing threads debating the subject. As the LoTR quote states, JRRT says they (or at least it) had wings. I'm aware the prior paragraph says "shadow like wings" or something to that effect. But the text says what it says. JRRT chose his words carefully. If he meant to say "Its wing-like shadow stretched wall to wall" he would have said so.

[The Barrow-Wight]

And in the true spirit if The Barrow-Wight vs. Mr. Underhill....

NO-WINGS (at least none that are worth a darn) :p

Why would a Maiar need wings to fly anyways? They don't even really need bodies.

Article at the site.

[noldo]

Balrogs DO have wings.

As Mithadan already stated:

The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall;...

I'm not sure whether Tolkien is referring to the "darkness" or the "balrog", but when it says wings it really does say wings.

[onewhitetree]

lol, NO! Just ask one.

[Orald]

If Balrogs have wings, and the wings are to large to fly in closed quarters and tight fits, then maybe they should clip there wings or at least trim them. Balrogs must have been really dumb creatures to give themselves wings and be unable to fly very well.

[Grand Admiral Reese]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 40</TD><TD><img src=http://www.facelink.com/edit/raw/rawimage/50/1315350.jpg?flezbwidth=60&flezbheight=60?flezbwidth=60&flezbheight=60?flezbwidth=60&flezbheight=60?flezbwidth=60&flezbheight=60?flezbwidth=60&flezbheight=60 WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Balrogs

Hows this: Balrogs have wings of darkness and shadow that are more for show than to fly.


Tall ships and tall kings Three times three, What brought they from the foundered land Over the flowing sea? Seven stars and seven stones And one white tree. .</br>
Administrator @ <a href=http://pub6.ezboard.com/bthegrandadmiralsforums>The Grand Admirals Forums</a>, <a href=http://pub10.ezboard.com/bb5techforums>The Grey Council Forums</a>, <a href=http://pub9.ezboard.com/bechostation12>The McClain Council</a> and <a href=http://pub14.ezboard.com/bthegrandmoffsforums>The Grand Moff's Forums</a>.</br> </p>

[Brian The Blue]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 18</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Balrogs

Well i see that you are as devided as the rest of the boards i've visitied. But in my personal opinion i think that they did have wings.

&quot;dont meddle in the affairs of wizards...&quot;

</p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 60</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Balrogs

I rather agree with the Admiral on this one.

Not all those who wander are lost.</p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 315</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Balrogs

And I rather agree with no-one.
Or perhaps; no-one agrees with me.
But then; I also think that men had pointed ears.

<img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 139</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Balrogs

I have to say that your idea on men having pointed ears is not an original idea. I believe I said something like that on another ez board, everyone just thought I was stupid. Think about it though, if men and elves could be mistaken for one another, then there ears must not have been very different rounded or pointed. It was always the eyes that gave them away not the ears, Not The Ears. DO YOU HERE ME!!

fit of rage, completely under control now, sorry.

</p>

[Zoe]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 91</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Pointy ears

But couldn't it have been that elves had 'normal' ears? After all, Tolkien had already transformed the idea of an elf from a pixie sitting on a toadstool to that of the firstborn, noble and proud.

Or is there some text which rules out that idea?

</p>

[noldo]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 62</TD><TD><img src=http://www.earlyng.homestead.com/files/noldoh.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Pointy ears

And Legolas wasn't a blonde. <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

It's holiday in Elvenhome and the glades of the forests are covered in white snow. Come in and enjoy.
<font size=-1>Creator of <A HREF=http://pub22.ezboard.com/belvenhome>Elvenhome</A>, a fantasy forum and part of the<A HREF=http://pub20.ezboard.com/badvertisehere>Tolkien EZBoard Network</A>.
Also a strong supporter of <A HREF=http://pub26.ezboard.com/bmithlond>Mithlond</A>, a Middle-Earth RPG forum.</font size=-1> </p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 400</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Pointy ears

Yes he was. See the Hobbit, describing his father, Thranduil the Woodland King, as having golden hair. There is also a reference in LoTR to his hair appearing to be golden (don't have cite right now). I say this as a convert because I always visualized him with dark hair.

Pointy ears? I don't think so. I tend to agree that otherwise there would notbe the emphasis on eyes. Also elves were, in form (hroa), the same as men.

Back to Balrogs. I've never seen any convincing evidence that they do not have wings. Those who embrace this position tend to rely on inference from the LoTR chapter on the battle on the bridge of Moria, focusing on the reference to the Balrog's shadow as opposed to the clear statement concerning his wings spreading. Why would a Maia/spirit need wings? Because they had placed themselves in a physical body complete with its constraints.



--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 401</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Pointy ears

400 Posts!

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1660</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Pointy ears

Mithadan, you rock! 100 to go! Start thinking of that cool personal title.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[noldo]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 63</TD><TD><img src=http://www.earlyng.homestead.com/files/noldoh.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Pointy ears

Mithadan, what I meant was that you people are pointlesly arguing on things not mentioned in the books. They're not canon. All we can do is to let our imagination run wild and forget about all those conflicts in the works of Tolkien. It is in our visions that lie the very treasures of these imaginative pieces.

It's holiday in Elvenhome and the glades of the forests are covered in white snow. Come in and enjoy.
<font size=-1>Creator of <A HREF=http://pub22.ezboard.com/belvenhome>Elvenhome</A>, a fantasy forum and part of the<A HREF=http://pub20.ezboard.com/badvertisehere>Tolkien EZBoard Network</A>.
Also a strong supporter of <A HREF=http://pub26.ezboard.com/bmithlond>Mithlond</A>, a Middle-Earth RPG forum.</font size=-1> </p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 232</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Balrogs

Ah, Wight, my old nemesis. We meet again at last. I don’t know how much mileage we’ll be able to get out of this one, though, since there’s so little to go on text-wise. I’ll just say this: in the post above and even in your article you admit that Balrogs may have wings.

Maiar seem to need bodies if they want to play in Middle-earth. And I don’t think you can back up the statement that Maiar (at least, “clothed” Maiar) don’t need wings to fly. When does a Maia fly without them? Gandalf needs the help of the Eagles.

Congrats on the milestone Mithadan, and thanks for slogging through my article!


</p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 319</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Balrogs

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I have to say that your idea on men having pointed ears is not an original idea.<hr></blockquote>
Probably not, I did mention it before, and it is essentially in the text, so some-one has probably thought of it before.

My conclusion came about from a different angle though.

Drawings of hobbits with pointy eary by Tolkien: Pictures, descriptions of hobbits with pointy ears by Tolkien: Letters, descriptions of hobbits looking like men -- ONLY SHORTER: LotR, the Legolas issue and the relation of stem -Las to leaf shaped: Letters and History , and that hobbits and elves and by extension men (as it is now converging from BOTH sides of comparison), have pointed ears.

Don't remember if I posted my conclusions on Wings here (I really don't think so however).

Will I do it again?
Nope.
Let's just say I agree whole-heartedly with neither camp.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000133>Saulotus</A> at: 12/28/00 12:41:08 pm

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 404</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Balrogs

Noldo, pointless? Only to the extent that all of our extended discussions about the details and implications of a long-deceased fiction writer are pointless. I will concede that the issue of whether a Balrog has wings is not exactly paramount in the scheme of things. I've watched threads on this subject come and go without participating in the past, in part because of my view that everyone's vision of the details of Middle Earth is very individual in nature. I just couldn't resist weighing in this time because, for whatever reason, it is a controversial issue.
I've never understood why it is controversial though. As quoted above, JRRT was very clear (and thus canonical) on this point.

Underhill, I agree. No doubt a disembodied (unclothed?) Maia can fly or otherwise transport itself. But with a body and its accompanying limitations, something more is required to enable flight. Wings, an eagle, etc.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1664</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Balrogs

I've seen a bird fly!
I've seen a house fly!
But I ain't never seen a Balrog fly! <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 407</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Balrogs

Hmmmmm.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
&quot;And indeed the most ancient songs of the Elves... tell of shadow-shapes that walked in the hills above Cuivienen, or would pass suddenly over the stars...&quot;
<hr></blockquote>
Silmarillion, pp.49-50.

No Nazgul then. No dragons either. What could fly above Cuivienen and pass over the stars? Hmmmmm. Wait! I know. Tom Bombadil and his hang glider! Or could it be one of Morgoth's most trusted aerial servants?

OK. I'll bite. If not for flying, why would Balrogs have wings, keeping in mind they formed their own bodies.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[noldo]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 64</TD><TD><img src=http://www.earlyng.homestead.com/files/noldoh.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Balrogs

<img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol">

Okay, I'm lost... So, it was the Balrog of Khazad-dum that wasn't capable of flying, right? And what if, that only this Balrog, of all, wasn't capable of flying. This creature's been under the rock for centuries: its wings have hit the walls of the caverns and whatever places it crawled in...

It's holiday in Elvenhome and the glades of the forests are covered in white snow. Come in and enjoy.
<font size=-1>Creator of <A HREF=http://pub22.ezboard.com/belvenhome>Elvenhome</A>, a fantasy forum and part of the<A HREF=http://pub20.ezboard.com/badvertisehere>Tolkien EZBoard Network</A>.
Also a strong supporter of <A HREF=http://pub26.ezboard.com/bmithlond>Mithlond</A>, a Middle-Earth RPG forum.</font size=-1> </p>

[Brian The Blue]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 21</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Balrogs

this is getting heated. lol. Still no answer to the question though. But i think that Mithadan is wrong.....it was Tom Bombadil on his hang glider. Thats my story and im sticking to it.

&quot;dont meddle in the affairs of wizards...&quot;

</p>

[Brian The Blue]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 22</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Balrogs

20 posts yeah yeah yeah

pile o bones brian
that has a nice ring to it.

(pardon the ring pun)

boy the jokes are bad

&quot;dont meddle in tha affairs of wizards...&quot;

</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 145</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Balrogs

And I used to hold all of you in such high regards. But now I know the truth, you are all just like me, muahahahahahahahah. Perhaps Gandalf just couldn't remember how to fly, unlike riding a bike maybe you need to keep flying to stay with it. And now I think that the balrogs could fly but could not carry more weight than their own bodies. Simple weight ratios, a 5 oz. swallow cannot carry a 1 pound coconut. Not even two swallows carring it on a line of creeper, under theri dorsal guiding feathers.

</p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 325</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Balrogs

Just for fun; and merely to cause incitement...

Anyone remember the winged steeds of the Nazgul?
They were perversions of the Eagles...
I think THEY were around and about when Cuivienen was heavily populated.

BWAHAHAHA err... HOHHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHO

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 414</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Balrogs

Nyaaaahhhhh, (munch, munch) could be. Or not.

Durelen, see One Hand Tied Behind Their Backs thread re powers of incarnate Maiar.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1667</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Balrogs

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;And indeed the most ancient songs of the Elves... tell of shadow-shapes that walked in the hills above Cuivienen, or would pass suddenly over the stars...&quot;<hr></blockquote>

Mithadan! This is a huge stretch to say these shadow-shapes were Balrogs. You're putting words where they aren't. Shame on you! <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

But I'll answer the question.
Since Balrogs didn't need wings to fly, maybe they didn't need wings at all. And maybe they didn't have any. And maybe the one mention of their wings was metaphoric after all.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 417</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Balrogs

Perhaps I am putting words where they are not. But speculation is fair game.

But concerning &quot;metaphoric&quot; wings, you are omitting words where they are. JRRT says &quot;his wings stretched from wall to wall.&quot; Absent some clear evidence to the contrary, the position of those who say Balrogs do not have wings amounts to stating that JRRT did not mean what he said.

Fair for you to say the Sil. does not state that Balrogs flew over Cuivienen. That is true, it does not. Fair for me to say LoTR says Balrogs have wings. That is also true, it does.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1668</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Balrogs

Definition:
METAPHOR - An implied comparison between two objects without the use of “like” or “as”.

source - http://www.robibrad.demon.co.uk/Idioms.htmwww.robibrad.demon.co.uk/Idioms.htm</a>

Omitting nothing, the good professor may have metaphorically linked the two passages concerning wings. Then again, he may not have <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 268

I'm dragging in citations from my own post, and don't you dare to accuse me of selfplagiarizm! :D

Then Thorondor bore up Glorfindel's body out of the abyss, the same abyss, mind you where

both [Glorfindel and balrog - HI] fell to ruin in the abyss

So was not an abyss too narrow a place for a greatest of the eagles? Or was he a size of, say, chickenhawk and Glorfindel that of a chicken? Does anyone implies that Thorondor was mountainclimber in disguise who climbed down the abyss with a rope, put the rest of Glorfindel into a bag and climbed back? They are wrong wrong wrong :D

Taken from the post #11 (http://69.51.5.41/showpost.php?p=9035&postcount=11) from One Hand Tied Behind Their Backs (by Mithadan)

...but what they are really like, and what lies beyond them, only those can say who have climbed them...

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 158</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
vings

Well, theLotR says it[ WINGS]
I believe it and that settles it for me. <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

I have seen [at the white council ] extreeeeemely long and convoluted arguments for both sides that left my eyelids drooping -but the best the nowingers can come up w/ are these falling problems the balrogs seem to have quite frequently. One cogent argument re: 1st and 3rd age balrogs is tat they stem from different and conflicting conceptions never fully harmonized.
We may rest assured however that the MOVIE will eternally decide it for us!

</p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 329</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: vings

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> -but the best the nowingers can come up w/ are these falling problems the balrogs seem to have quite frequently.<hr></blockquote>
You must have missed my analysis on the text re: flaming aspect then.

It WAS a different approach.

<img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1674</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: vings

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 1st and 3rd age balrogs is tat they stem from different and conflicting conceptions never fully harmonized.<hr></blockquote>

I kind of have these type of thoughts about trolls....


The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 244</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: vings

*sigh*

</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 157</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: vings

How about we say that some did and some didn't, but Gothmog and the Moria one will have to have no wings or it is all silly. and don't say that this theory(my 3rd or 4th on balrog wings I believe) is stupid. It could hold a lot of weight, the only reason they are balrogs is because their fea defines them as such. they are maiar choosing there own hroa, so that says that they can have wings if they want them or not, depending on what they like.

</p>

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 160</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
vings

Very good point Dureleen.

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 428</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: vings

Indeed, Durelen makes a good point. Balogs are spirits of fire, maiar of a certain type. Whether they form a body which has wings may, to some degree, be personal choice (or a choice imposed by their master). In the discussion above, I, on occaission, limited my comments to the Moria Balrog. It is possible that the Moria Balrog had wings while others did not. The reference to the Silmarillion which I quoted does not necessarily mean that all the Balrogs rose up and went over Hithlum to come to Lammoth and save Morgoth. However, there is no textual evidence that some Balrogs did not have wings; only inference from, for example, the duel between Glorfindel and the balrog in the Echoriath where both fell and Thorondor recovered the Glorfindel's body. Another inference could be that the Balrog's wings were damaged in the duel.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Grey Fool]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 37</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Honestly.

There's nothing quite like a debate for debate's sake, is there? OBVIOUSLY JRRT conceived the Balrog as a winged creature - it says so in FotR, as has been quoted already. The writing need not be interpreted to mean anything other than it says.

As to the purpose of the wings, now there's another matter. It seems likely to me that the Durin's Bane had wings not really for practicality's sake; after all flying around inside a disused mine would be pretty hazardous for anyone that size. I reckon they were put there to fit the Balrog to the commonly perceived image of a Demon or Devil, in other words the wings are the part that most readers are familiar with and can relate to from mythology and so on. Tolkien was adept at drawing on innate images to act as a hook in his writing: wings, pointed ears, sharp teeth, eyes that glow, blah blah etc etc.. all classic popular images, put in as helpful guides. (I wonder if he had any idea about the amount of trouble they would cause in the future?)

To continue briefly in this literal vein - Perhaps the Balrog of Moria is the definitive Balrog, and any other sort of outdoor specimens are just mere offspring or pale shadows. It would make sense for the outdoor Balrogs to have wings for them to get about etc, especially if they wanted to stay out of sight of other ground-dwellers. Natural selection would imply that for a mine-dweller to have wings and an outdoor Balrog to be wingless, would be a bit backward. Possibly Natural Selection has nothing to do with it in this case; perhaps any outdoor Balrogs would have been wingless mutants, outcasts, rejects or something. Whatever they were, they kept themselves extremely quiet at some most exciting times <img src=indifferent.gif ALT=":/"> .

</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1692</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Honestly.

I think the whole point is that its NOT obvious unless taken in an absolute literal way. But the English language is full of figures of speech, of which the good professor was a master (as great writers tend to be). Which, when and where has already been discussed above.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 179</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Honestly.

Three more things. The first is that Balrogs could be looked at as being like dragons. There were dragons, and there were winged dragons. Another thing that I didn't think of before that actually helps my opposition. The moon was attacked by creatures that Morgoth sent, the moon was scorched forever after, leading one to believe that something flew up to get to the moon, and that that something was hot enough to scorch the moon. The third thing is Tolkien intended for ME and everything else he created to not be an allegory, and to not represent anything here on Earth today. So wouldn't you think that Balrogs were not meant to look like devils.

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 438</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Honestly.

Just because JRRT denies allegory doesn't mean he would not clothe a classic demon with classic demon's wings. He does operate from or draw upon existing mythology in his work. Whether the Moria Balrog's wings are made of flesh and bone, shadow or tissue paper, JRRT names them &quot;wings&quot;. Whether all Balrogs had wings cannot be resolved, but the one example we have is winged.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[red]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 144</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Were Balrog's winged?

Yes and no.

Ha!

&quot;Go not to the Elves for council, for they will say both no and yes.&quot; <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

-réd

<blockquote><font size=2>

"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."</p>

-A Short Rest, The Hobbit</p></blockquote></p>

[HerenIstarion]

Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 304

No comments about tissue paper :D

But here I met the phrase I can't leave unanswered

by Durelen (Orald)

The moon was attacked by creatures that Morgoth sent, the moon was scorched forever after, leading one to believe that something flew up to get to the moon, and that that something was hot enough to scorch the moon.

I'm awfully sorry, but that helps your opposition not. Even despite round earth theory and a different cosmogony, which become predominant in JRRT's late writings, one can't use wings to get to the moon, simply because there are such things as 1.air of breath and flight and 2. Ilmen which flesh unaided cannot endure . I doubt that by flesh here's meant human flesh only, which means, that if balrogs were to scorch the moon, they must have approached him bodyless, and therefore, not winged.

Unaided by Whom is another question. If not Eru himself, one needs help of the Valar obviously


...but what they are really like, and what lies beyond them, only those can say who have climbed them.

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 182</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Were Balrog's winged?

It doesn't really matter what I said anyway, I am pretty sure I was wrong to begin with. Weren't they spirits of shadow that attacked the moon and not spirits of fire.

</p>

[Grey Fool]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 39</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Figures of speech

It seems more likely to me that the &quot;figures of speech&quot; of which the prof was so fond, tend in those places where Balrogs are mentioned, to actually imply flight rather than discredit it. One example that you're no doubt totally familiar with has to be:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;Far beneath the ruined halls of Angband... Balrogs lurked still... and now swiftly they arose, and passing over Hithlum they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire.&quot;<hr></blockquote>
Needless to say, there is no evidence of wings at this stage in the development. On this point I hold no dispute. However, they &quot;arose&quot; somehow. Later in the Silmarillion, there appears a brief reference to their speed capability:
[qoute]&quot;Then suddenly Morgoth sent forth great rivers of flame that ran down swifter than Balrogs from Thangorodrim, and poured over all the plain.&quot;[/quote]
This passage is interesting in that it hints at two elements simultaneously (a device which appears frequently in the Silmarillion); the swiftness of the lava i.e the strength and power of Morgoth's determination to destroy Beleriand for his own means, compared with that of your average Balrog. Also, at Cirith Thoronath there is reference to: <blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;...the duel of Glorfindel with the Balrog upon a pinnacle of rock in that high place; and both fell to ruin in the abyss.&quot;<hr></blockquote>
Sadly, no explanation is given as to how they both fell to ruin. The image of a Balrog waiting beneath the shadows of the highest peaks of the Crissaegrim or thereabouts to do battle WITHOUT WINGS however, is less probable than the winged version, surely <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)"> .

I still hold that Tolkien used various well-known images, in particular derived from popular myth and legend, to depict his arguably original inhabitants of Middle-earth. It is nigh on impossible to invent a creature that doesn't resemble one already known, however remotely, because the simple fact is that our imagination is, very basically, made up of mixtures of things that have had an impression on us in the past. The idea is for an author to exploit his limitations by tuning into the psyche of the masses and providing them with new forms of what they are already familiar with. This creates rapport and hopefully sells books. Tolkien uses this all the time in his books. The similarities to our own world are many and various. The ORIGINS of his universe are unique, as are the stories set therein. Our fascination starts with the unknown territory that he presents, which leads us into an assumed world other than our own. We are inspired by his ability to suspend disbelief; to leave so much hanging in the balance that we gradually cease to question the structure that surrounds us in the stories. From my personal need to indulge in fantasy and to delve into alternative realities, I openly accept what is laid down before me in words. But at the same time I question the origins of some of the elements of Middle-earth as they were when they first arose in the mind of their author. And I see no reason to suppose that Balrogs (for example) are not an ascendant of another far more familiar form of Daemon, seen in certain medieval architecture and gothic renderings of satanic scenes. After all, the man was brought up and indeed lived with strong Catholic beliefs and interests. There is no threat to the viability or originality of Middle-earth, because the intricacy of the structure derives from the imagination of a well-educated and open-minded individual. As with all works of great beauty that I have so far discovered, the works of JRRT cause echos of things in me that I believed were long buried or forgotten. It's those familiar images and underlying emotions that are the indispensable and undying part of the books.

</p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 284</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Flying Balrogs

Great points, Grey Fool. I agree that phrases and words used by Tolkien are suggestive of a winged creature. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> It [the Moria Balrog] came to the edge of the fire and the light faded as if a cloud had bent over it. Then with a rush it leaped across the fissure.

With a bound the Balrog leaped full upon the bridge.<hr></blockquote>These phrases conjure images (at least in my mind) of a winged beast. But arguing Balrog wings is like arguing politics or religion. The chances of converting someone from one side of the argument to the other are slim to none.

BTW, Mithadan, I thought the Silma ref about Cuivienen was some sharp reading. Surely Balrogs are among Morgoth’s oldest servants.

</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 187</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Flying Balrogs

To counter Mithadan's point. When I read over the section in Silm. about the Sun and the Moon I found that the spirits assailing Tilion, were spirits of shadow, not fire, and could easily traverse Ilmen. So I think that those creature that flew over Cuivienen probably were not Balrogs, and were the same spirits that attacked the moon.

</p>

[Raw]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 7</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Flying Balrogs

I haven't read all the posts so my question may be answered alredy. But i think that the Balrogs was winged, maybe not all of them... And i read in Silmarillion that Sauron was a Balrog???

/RAW

</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 218</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Flying Balrogs

No Sauron wasn't but he was powerful nonetheless

</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 219</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Whoa!

I passed up 200 posts and didn't even realize. I must be posting like mad.

</p>

[Raw]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 19</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Whoa!

Sorry, i was wrong about that, i read wrong. But i found a new name for Sauron, Gorthaur. Don't know if it's the same as in english.

</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 242</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Whoa!

Yeah, I think that is his name in Sindarin.

</p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 418</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Whoa!

Some may groan at the resurrection of this thread, but I wouldn't do it if a new lead hadn't come to light. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> 20. The Balrog never speaks or makes any vocal sound at all. Above all he does not laugh or sneer. .... Z may think that he knows more about Balrogs than I do, but he cannot expect me to agree with him.<hr></blockquote>This is one of JRRT's comments on a &quot;storyline&quot; for a proposed animated film from around 1958. The reason I quote it is that the storyline does seem to have included some detailed descriptions of settings, characters, and events from LotR which JRRT took pains to correct. Since the prof makes no corrective notes on the Balrog's <u>appearance</u>, it makes me wonder if we might be able to get something approaching a resolution to this question -- if copies of the storyline still exist. Does anyone know anything about this &quot;storyline&quot; or if it is available from any source?

</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shadow of Malice
Posts: 551</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Whoa!

And who is Z?

Now I expect that the balrog in the upcoming movies to not make any noises, because Tolkien said so.

I could come to a really profound conclusion with this snipit, but I am not going to say it.

It seems fate is not without a sense of irony.</p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 419</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Whoa!

Z = Morton Grady Zimmerman, the scribbler who drafted the proposed storyline. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> I could come to a really profound conclusion with this snipit, but I am not going to say it. <hr></blockquote>Don't hold back! Let's hear it.

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 599</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Whoa! Letters!

Some have suggested that the quote cited above is &quot;out of context&quot; and that JRRT is criticizing Z(immerman if I recall) at Disney for suggesting that the Balrog was silent by nature. Supporting this position is LoTR itself. Look at the section of &quot;the Bridge of Khazad-Dum&quot; where the duel on the bridge is described. It says:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward, and its shadow plunged down and vanished.&quot; <hr></blockquote>

Letters is a great source of information but we don't have the correspondence that JRRT is answering so we don't always know the context. Usually it doesn't matter, but here it apparently does.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000004>Mithadan</A> at: 3/12/01 8:54:14 am

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 420</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Whoa!

That sounds like a rather strained argument. It seems to me that Zimmerman had concocted some sort of dialogue between Gandalf and the Balrog, and this is what Tolkien was referring to. Judging from Zimmerman's other errors, he seems much more likely to have gone for a sneering, talkative Balrog (complete with <img src=devil.gif ALT=":evil"> &quot;Muahahahaha!&quot; evil laughter) than an eerily silent one. That point aside, I take it that the aforementioned storyline no longer exists?

Also I noticed a reference to a Tolkien Society publication from 1997 that had a long article about Balrogs. Has anyone here ever read it or heard tell of what it contains?

</p>

[Mister Underhill]

Dread Horseman
Posts: 570
Re: Whoa!

Surely this quote has come up before, somewhere, but I haven't seen it brought up in connection with this debate and I didn't see it in a quick scan back through this thread:
Thus they roused from sleep a thing of terror that, flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth since the coming of the Host of the West: a Balrog of Morgoth.

From RotK, Appendix A, Pt. III
What say ye non-wingers to this quote?

[Inziladun]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 150</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Whoa!

Flying could simply mean it fled the scene in a quick manner.After all,Gandalf said
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;Fly,you fools!&quot;<hr></blockquote>
when ordering the Company to get out of Moria.
But this is not proof that Balrogs didn't have wings.Maybe some did and some didn't,as was mentioned here earlier. After all some dragons had wings (Smaug) while others did not (Glaurung).

Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000125>Inziladun</A> at: 3/14/01 5:43:19 pm

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shadow of Malice
Posts: 677</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Whoa!

I agree with Inziladun on the quote. It seems like it only meant going with speed.

It seems fate is not without a sense of irony.</p>

[Eldar14]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 2</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Were Balrogs winged?

This event where the Balrogs &quot;flew&quot; might also have been at a time when the Balrogs could transform (like their non-evil counterparts, the Maiar*). Maybe they, like Sauron, lost the ability to change their form. So possibly all of the Balrogs look different, depending on what form they were stuck in. (Some with wings, some without, etc.)

*I think that's right. <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

</p>

[Fingolfin]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 20</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> umm...

-------------------------------------------------------
&quot;His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings.&quot;
-------------------------------------------------------
&quot;It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall&quot;

In these two passages the term &quot;wings&quot; is used as a simile and also as a metaphor. It would make no sense for Tolkien to use the term as a simile and and actual physical describtion because that would simply undo his previous work. I submit that due to a lack of a term synonimous with &quot;wing&quot; tolkien used it as a metaphor and a simile instead of using further and more similes because of the shere lack previously stated.

.

Also wings on Balrogs would be a very promenant features but in the silm there is no mention of them ever being present on a Balrog, nor in HoME(not even in &quot;THe War of the RIng&quot;). The only time wings were described on a Balrog the term was used in the presence of the same word used as a simile for the darkness.

.

Also such things as troll escorts mentioned in the silm would not be needed if inded balrogs could fly.Tolkien is pretty explicit that Dragons could fly (some at least) why would he be vague as to the abilities of Balrogs?
I don't think he would it seems to me the very nature of his works are vivd well placed texts completely out of line with the Balrog/Wing concept.
.

Origionally Tolkien had no intention of using the term wings of any sort in describing the Balrog of Moria, but the reason he did was to make it seem larger and more dreadfull then it would have otherwise looked, as supported by these two quotesThe treson of Isengard, The Bridge pg 199 Houghton Milton Company and pg 202 Houghton Milton Company:



quote:

------------------------------------------------------

There is a penciled note on the manuscript against the describtion of the Balrog: 'alter the describtion of the Balrog. It seemed to be of man's shape, but its for could not be plainly decerned it FELT larger than it looked.' After the words 'Through the air it sprang over the fiery fissure' my father added: 'and a great shadow seemed to black out the light...'

------------------------------------------------------

What this quote proves is that tolkien wanted the Balrong to seem larger than it was and so
to do this he employed just a shadow in the first drafts.



quote:

------------------------------------------------------

Fellowship of the RIng] it is said only that the
Balrog 'stood facing him' : in C'the Balrog halted facing him, and the shadow about him reached out like giant wings'. Immediately afterward in FR the Balrog &quot;drew itself up to a great height , and its wings spread from wall to wall', neither B nor C has the words 'to a great height' nor speak of 'wings'.

------------------------------------------------------

.
what this quote prove it that wings were just the culmmonation of tolkien endevoring to make the Balrog seem larger and more commanding, it shows that tolkien did not want the balrog to be seen as a Winged beast but as a man-shape with a towering presence due to the imense shadow which seemed to accompany it. Tyhe fact that the shadow was present in the revious drafts but actual wings weren't until the very final supports the idea that tolkien had no intention of giving tha balrog wings and that when he did use the term 'wings&quot; he used it as a simile and a metaphor.

There are more quote in TTOI but I don't have time to post them

</p>

[Imbear Nolwehin]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 1</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> That's it

Hantalyën, Fingolfin.
Finally, after reading each post, your response closely puts to word the same objections I felt. Particularly, as a student of language, I thank you for the fine definitions and shown-use of simile and metaphor. The paragraphs speak to eachother, as you show, and they communicate Power and Impressiveness.

Now, of course, a reality-check. The true nature of the Balrog is easily analyzed from where we sit reading. However, the folks on the Bridge in Moria were 'seeing' a Balrog for the first time - could it not be posited that to the physical senses the enormity and the shadow-denseness roiling about the beast would be perceived as wings behind and above the central shape? In the dark, all things are possible, especially when the Balrog was working terror and confusion magic - who knows what Hobbits will see.

Imbëar

</p>

[Mister Underhill]

Dread Horseman
Posts: 668
Re: umm...

Also wings on Balrogs would be a very promenant features but in the silm there is no mention of them ever being present on a Balrog, nor in HoME(not even in &quot;THe War of the RIng&quot;) . The only time wings were described on a Balrog the term was used in the presence of the same word used as a simile for the darkness. As readers of HoME know, the conception of Balrogs changed drastically over the course of Tolkien's writing life (e.g., from vast hosts of them to "no more than seven" ever existing), so referring to older versions of texts is next to pointless. But since the last part of that first sentence sounds like a challenge, how about this from HoME X?Far beneath the halls of Angband, in vaults to which the Valar in the haste of their assault had not descended, the Balrogs lurked still, awaiting ever the return of their lord. Swiftly they arose, and they passed with winged speed over Hithlum, and they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire.

Edited by: Mister Underhill at: 6/18/01 5:32:32 pm

[Mister Underhill]

Dread Horseman
Posts: 669
Re: umm...

Here's something new -- at least, I've never seen this bit put forward here on the Downs. Here's a quote from FotR:
`Elbereth Gilthoniel!' sighed Legolas as he looked up. Even as he did so, a dark shape, like a cloud and yet not a cloud, for it moved far more swiftly, came out of the blackness in the South, and sped towards the Company, blotting out all light as it approached. Soon it appeared as a great winged creature, blacker than the pits in the night. Fierce voices rose up to greet it from across the water. Frodo felt a sudden chill running through him and clutching at his heart; there was a deadly cold, like the memory of an old wound, in his shoulder. He crouched down, as if to hide.

Suddenly the great bow of Lórien sang. Shrill went the arrow from the elven-string. Frodo looked up. Almost above him the winged shape swerved. There was a harsh croaking scream, as it fell out of the air, vanishing down into the gloom of the eastern shore. The sky was clean again. There was a tumult of many voices far away, cursing and wailing in the darkness, and then silence. Neither shaft nor cry came again from the east that night.

After a while Aragorn led the boats back upstream. They felt their way along the water's edge for some distance, until they found a small shallow bay. A few low trees grew there close to the water, and behind them rose a steep rocky bank. Here the Company decided to stay and await the dawn: it was useless to attempt to move further by night. They made no camp and lit no fire, but lay huddled in the boats, moored close together.

'Praised be the bow of Galadriel, and the hand and eye of Legolas!' said Gimli, as he munched a wafer of lembas. 'That was a mighty shot in the dark, my friend!'

'But who can say what it hit?' said Legolas.

'I cannot,' said Gimli. `But I am glad that the shadow came no nearer. I liked it not at all. Too much it reminded me of the shadow in Moria – the shadow of the Balrog,' he ended in a whisper.

'It was not a Balrog,' said Frodo, still shivering with the chill that had come upon him. 'It was something colder. I think it was –' Then he paused and fell silent. Okay, the point should be obvious -- why should Gimli say the Nazgûl's winged steed reminded him of the Balrog if the Balrog had no wings? Frodo's confirmation that it was, indeed, not a Balrog lends creedance to the idea that it might have been a (flying) Balrog.

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 2310</TD><TD><img src=http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/my_pic.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: umm...

It was the shadow that reminded Gimli of the Balrog, not the flying or any wings the creature may have had.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Mister Underhill]

Dread Horseman
Posts: 670
Re: umm...

Then why would Frodo say, "It was not a Balrog."? Wouldn't it be obvious that it wasn't a Balrog if the Balrog had no wings?

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 2311</TD><TD><img src=http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/my_pic.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: uhh....

Because Gimli suggested it reminded him of one and Frodo was stating the obvious - it wasn't one.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Eldar14]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 27</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: uhh....

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;Far beneath the halls of Angband, in vaults to which the Valar in the haste of their assault had not descended, the Balrogs lurked still, awaiting ever the return of their lord. Swiftly they arose, and they passed with winged speed over Hithlum, and they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire.&quot; <hr></blockquote>

Most people so far have used that quote as an example for why Balrog's have wings. They claim that &quot;arose&quot; means the Balrogs have wings, but it clearly states that they were lurking. When you are lurking, you have to arise before running off anywhere. Also, for &quot;winged speed&quot;, I don't remember Tolkien writing something along these lines for anything that we know has wings.

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 895</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: uhh....

How about...

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;He rose in fire and went away south towards the Running River&quot; <hr></blockquote>

Smaug had wings, didn't he? The language is startlingly similar actually.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Mister Underhill]

Dread Horseman
Posts: 672
Re: uhh....

Here's another similar structure, from RotK: Smaug the Golden, greatest of the dragons of his day, arose and without warning came against King Thrór and descended on the Mountain in flames. And here's something else that's interesting, from FotR: Suddenly a shadow, like the shape of great wings, passed across the moon. The figure lifted his arms and a light flashed from the staff that he wielded. A mighty eagle swept down and bore him away. Another case where the simile "like" is used before the (winged) creature is fully revealed.

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shadow of Malice
Posts: 855</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: uhh....

Quick comment for my favorite Barrow Wight. Don't stop now, I'm behind you.

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil be good to have been.</p>

[Mister Underhill]

Dread Horseman
Posts: 673
Re: uhh....

Since it's so slow, thought I'd address a few of these other arguments. In these two passages the term "wings" is used as a simile and also as a metaphor. It would make no sense for Tolkien to use the term as a simile and and actual physical describtion because that would simply undo his previous work. I’ve cited one precedent from the same book where JRRT uses the exact same structure – first the simile, then the full reveal. I don’t think we can concede your assumption here that “wings” is used metaphorically. Also such things as troll escorts mentioned in the silm would not be needed if inded balrogs could fly. The “troll guard” reference is very suspect and hardly authoritative. For an in-depth look at this reference (albeit in a different context) from the published Silmarillion, check this link (http://www.barrowdowns.com/articleshifi.php#DECONSTRUCTING). Suffice to say that the passage you’re quoting from was constructed by Christopher Tolkien from multiple sources. None of the source material published in HoME contains the troll reference, and in fact it is the only reference to trolls that exists at all in the published Sil. This argument is not convincing.
------------------------------------------------------
There is a penciled note on the manuscript against the describtion of the Balrog: 'alter the describtion of the Balrog. It seemed to be of man's shape, but its for could not be plainly decerned it FELT larger than it looked.' After the words 'Through the air it sprang over the fiery fissure' my father added: 'and a great shadow seemed to black out the light...'
------------------------------------------------------

What this quote proves is that tolkien wanted the Balrong to seem larger than it was and so
to do this he employed just a shadow in the first drafts.

quote:

------------------------------------------------------
Fellowship of the RIng] it is said only that the
Balrog 'stood facing him' : in C'the Balrog halted facing him, and the shadow about him reached out like giant wings'. Immediately afterward in FR the Balrog &quot;drew itself up to a great height , and its wings spread from wall to wall', neither B nor C has the words 'to a great height' nor speak of 'wings'.
------------------------------------------------------

.
what this quote prove it that wings were just the culmmonation of tolkien endevoring to make the Balrog seem larger and more commanding, it shows that tolkien did not want the balrog to be seen as a Winged beast but as a man-shape with a towering presence due to the imense shadow which seemed to accompany it. Tyhe fact that the shadow was present in the revious drafts but actual wings weren't until the very final supports the idea that tolkien had no intention of giving tha balrog wings and that when he did use the term 'wings&quot; he used it as a simile and a metaphor.
Again, I think unwarranted assumptions are being made here. It is reckless to attempt to divine JRRT’s final intentions by looking at these early and very different drafts. Case in point: Aragorn, in the versions you cite, is still named “Trotter”, who was earlier conceived as a mysterious hobbit, or, alternatively, as an elf in disguise. Obviously, these conceptions changed drastically as the story matured. The fact that the “wings” reference was added last may in fact provide a stronger argument in favor of a winged Balrog as the final conception. They claim that &quot;arose&quot; means the Balrogs have wings, but it clearly states that they were lurking. Passages using parallel construction in reference to winged beasts have been cited.
Also, for &quot;winged speed&quot;, I don't remember Tolkien writing something along these lines for anything that we know has wings. I feel like Big Brother is trying to convince me that “War is peace.” You’re trying to tell me that the use of the word “winged” means that the Balrogs don’t have wings? Okay. I don’t remember Tolkien writing something along these lines for anything that we know doesn’t have wings, either. So there we are. Quick comment for my favorite Barrow Wight. Don't stop now, I'm behind you. ...Oh wait. There's no argument here. Just some brown-nosing! ;)

Just playing with you, D! Long time no see. Good to see you haunting the Downs once again.

Edited by: Mister Underhill at: 6/20/01 3:51:26 pm

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shadow of Malice
Posts: 856</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Were Balrogs winged?

Not an argument, not even really on topic.

But didn't you both (BW and MU) write an essay concerning trolls of the first age and use the troll guard for a reference in those essays?

And if so. Shouldn't the passage still be held highly suspect? Or is this some kind of double standard that works for trolls but not for balrogs?

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil be good to have been.</p>

[Mister Underhill]

Dread Horseman
Posts: 675
Re: Were Balrogs winged?

BW used the ref as potential evidence for First Age sun-resistant trolls; in my counterpoint essay, I did some deconstructing that (I believe) shows the passage to be unreliable. That's where the link goes to. No double standard here! :)

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shadow of Malice
Posts: 857</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Were Balrogs winged?

Almost to thorough MU. Touchè.

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil be good to have been.</p>

[Mister Underhill]

Dread Horseman
Posts: 676
Re: Were Balrogs winged?

Okay, I'm in the zone.

Thinking further on these quotes:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Far beneath the halls of Angband, in vaults to which the Valar in the haste of their assault had not descended, the Balrogs lurked still, awaiting ever the return of their lord. Swiftly they arose, and they passed with winged speed over Hithlum, and they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire. (HoME Vol. X)

Far beneath the ruined halls of Angband, in vaults to which the Valar in the haste of their assault had not descended, Balrogs lurked still, awaiting ever the return of their Lord; and now swiftly they arose, and passing over Hithlum they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire. ( The Silmarillion)<hr></blockquote>
...two points struck me.

First, the construction -- the use of the phrase &quot;passing over&quot; as opposed to "passing through" which is the more traditional phrase for landbound travel. Doing a little research, I noticed that Tolkien virtually always uses "pass (-ed, -ing) through" to denote landbound travel.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The Hobbit
At first they had passed through hobbit-lands...

Unfinished Tales
...she passed through the land of Mithrim...

At his right hand rode Borondir, to serve as guide so far as he might, since he had lately passed through the lands.

...these words recalled his speech with Erendis as they passed through Emerië...

...we actually passed through the Shire, though Thorin would not stop long enough for that to be useful.

But on a time it chanced that he was passing through Eriador...

LotR
Leave a message for me here, if you pass through Bree.

We might spend a year in such a journey, and we should pass through many lands that are empty and harbourless.

...it was left in my care to be given to you, should you pass through this land...

...Black horsemen have passed through Bree.

At length after fifteen days of journey the wain of King Théoden passed through the green fields of Rohan and came to Edoras...

The Silmarillion
Thence he passed through Dor Dínen, the Silent Land...

It is told in the Lay of Leithian that Beren passed through Doriath unhindered...

No living creature could pass through that vale that Sauron did not espy from the tower where he sat.

...they intended in their haste to pass through Dimbar...<hr></blockquote>
He uses "pass over" in relation to landbound travel only to denote a crossing of some sort -- e.g., passed over a river, passed over an ocean, passed over the mountains, etc.

However, he does notably use "pass [-ed, -ing] over" to indicate the passage of flying creatures through a region
:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> LotR
`Regiments of black crows are flying over all the land between the Mountains and the Greyflood,' he said, `and they have passed over Hollin.

...a flying darkness in the shape of a monstrous bird, passed over Edoras that morning...<hr></blockquote>
Yet another telling detail from a man who chose his words with utmost care and consideration.

That's point one. Point two:

Just looking on the map of my Silmarillion, there are two physical realities of the Balrogs' rescue of Morgoth that jump out at me.

(1) In the chapter "Of Beleriand and Its Realms", it says that Dorthonion "stretched for sixty leagues (180 miles) from west to east". Based on that scale, I'd make the journey from Angband to Lammoth to be (conservatively) at least 200 miles in a straight line. Not only that, but...

(2) ...the mountain range of Ered Lómin is in the way. I reckon that if they were on foot, they must have been running like The Flash to Morgoth's rescue. Tolkien always portrays his flying creatures as being able to cover great distances in much shorter periods of time than those stuck on the ground (with the possible exception of Shadowfax -- though even he could have been overtaken by "a swift bird on the wing"). Flying Balrogs seem more in keeping with this pattern.


Edited by: Mister Underhill at: 6/21/01 1:46:16 am

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 899</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Were Balrogs winged?

Bravo Sir Underhill!

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 2314</TD><TD><img src=http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/my_pic.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Were Balrogs winged?

Well researched and well said. Indeed, it seems there may be room for winged Balrogs in Middle-Earth if one is willing to dig deep into the texts for abstruse references. This is not meant as an argument against your report, Underhill. We've enjoyed plenty of spirited talk of this and other topics, and I'm not about to rekindle this one. Instead, I wonder why it is necessary to dig so deep to find evidence of the possibility of flight and wings. Why did Tolkien, a wonderfully talented author capable of detailed description (and purple prose <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)"> ), leave only shadowed clues? Was it his intention to leave an entire species of beings in perpetual shade? Was it an erroneous omission on his part that might have been corrected in time? Or was he undecided on the true physical nature of Balrogs, leaving their anatomy to the imagination of the reader? He certainly must have been aware of the controversy, but so far there have been no solid revelations discovered in his posthumous publications. Maybe HoME XXXVII will at last settle the matter.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Mister Underhill]

Dread Horseman
Posts: 678
Re: Were Balrogs winged?

I have often wondered whether there was such a controversy in Tolkien's day. Surely Christopher is aware of the controversy.

The optimist in me thinks that perhaps Tolkien never really solidified his conception of Balrogs (e.g., an entire species -- or only seven individuals -- or only three individuals?) and so Christopher has no definitive document, sketch, or painting which remains unpublished.

The pessimist in me senses a sort of resentment that Tolkien's heirs harbor against their father's rabid fans -- fans who have in many ways prevented them from living quiet, anonymous lives -- and wonders if Christopher refrains from settling these kinds of controversies as a sort of vengeful retaliation.

Then there's a part of me that just wonders what's on tv.
I wonder why it is necessary to dig so deep to find evidence of the possibility of flight and wings. As a pro-winger, and with all due respect, my response is that it's not necessary to dig so deep to find evidence -- only to try to convince non-wingers of the error of their ways. ;)

It seems to me that the non-wing camp's arguments more or less hinge on the "like two vast wings" phrase in "The Bridge of Khazad-dûm". If one accepts the thesis that the wings are metaphorical only (certainly not an unreasonable position), then one can easily convert what appears to be clear evidence to pro-wingers into more metaphors -- "...its wings were spread from wall to wall..." is taken to mean its metaphorical wings; "...flying from Thangorodrim..." is read as "to flee" instead of as "to move in or pass through the air with wings"; "winged speed" is read as "swiftly", or "as if with wings", rather than a more literal reading. To pro-wingers, evidence abounds!

The most significant find in my research of this go-round (to my mind, anyway) is the parallel use of the "like...wings" in the case of the eagle in FotR. If we view this use of the simile followed by the reveal as a curiosity of Tolkien's style, repeated again with the Balrog, then the basis for reading all the other evidence metaphorically is (I think) considerably weakened.

Anyway, I just enjoy the discussion, as always! I expect this argument will reach no definitive conclusion unless CT does publish that secret Balrog sketch in HoME Vol. XXXVII - Leave Us Alone Already!

[GandaIf The White]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 252</TD><TD><img src=http://www.herr-der-ringe-film.de/HdR/crewmckel.JPG WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Were Balrogs winged?

I haven't read this whole Topic, but while reading it I had an idea, which was what I had basically thought all along.

In the fight between Gandalf and the Balrog, it tells how the Balrog flew high into the air an came down onto the bridge. Maybe it was that the Balrogs could use there wings as an adnvantage to jumping, but not flying. I think that if they could have flown, they would not so easily have been cast into abbyses. So, with a push of the wings, a Balrog could fly high into the air for a distance but could not 'fly' like an eagle high into the air for long periods of time. It is just a thought.

Before these discussions, I had always imagined that Balrogs could fly. They are extremely powerful, an even if they could not fly, I had imagined them more being able to float with the assistance of there wings. But, in any case, they do have wings. (Not even if RKittle says otherwise. <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)"> )

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."</p>

[Fingolfin]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 22</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: umm

Mr. Underhill, I am sorry I have not been able to respond lately but here is my response to your numerous and unchallenged posts:

-------------------------------

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Another case where the simile &quot;like&quot; is used before the (winged) creature is fully revealed.<hr></blockquote>

All you proved is that tolkien used similes in other areas. This hardly proves that tolkien had a pattern of using the same word for both a simile and a physical attribute.


<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I’ve cited one precedent from the same book where JRRT uses the exact same structure – first
the simile, then the full reveal. I don’t think we can concede your assumption here that “wings” is nused metaphorically. <hr></blockquote>

No if you actually look at the different texts the structure is completely different the only similarity being in both a simile was utilized. The &quot;shadow&quot; in this case was independant of the object because of the time differencial and the nature of such a shadow as opposed to that of the Balrog shadow, if indeed the eagle is the object, but in &quot;the Bridge...&quot; they are not independant at all, the shadow is a part of the Balrog( sure if the balrog was casting a shadow hen what you said would apply but that is not how it works), it is completely different and is a complete stretch.

-------------------------------

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Again, I think unwarranted assumptions are being made here. It is reckless to attempt to divine JRRT’s final intentions by looking at these early and very different drafts. Case in point: Aragorn, in the versions you cite, is still named “Trotter”, who was earlier conceived as a mysterious hobbit, or, alternatively, as an elf in disguise. Obviously, these conceptions changed drastically as the story matured. The fact that the “wings” reference was added last may in fact provide a stronger argument in favor of a winged Balrog as the final conception.<hr></blockquote>

Are you saying looking at the previous drafts casts no light on the intensions of the author? The generalities and basic conepts remain true through out the drafts despite the variations on nomenclature and various details. THe fact is there is no hint as to such ariel appendages being present on the Balrog in any of the drafts but tolkien says himslef that he wished to make the Balrog seem larger then it actually was, his intensions in this respect are quite clear and unambiguous.

1. Tolkien wanted the Balrog to seem greater then it actually was (this is established to the end by his son)

2. The &quot;shadow&quot; is present in all of the later drafts as a means to accomplish this

3. If the Barog had literal wings then why would tolkien want to make it seem greater then it actually was? He would have no need to. He wanted it to SEEM larger then it actually was what would be the point if it already filled the room with its massive wings?

--------------------------------

In regard to what exactly arose meant that can not be determined since at different times it has meant different things. Tolkien set no rules as to what specific terms such as &quot;arose&quot; which are used in an infinite variety of contexts could be used. Sure He has used the term for creature with wings but has also has not:


Lord of the Rings, Book V Chapter 2:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> but her eyes were ever upon Aragorn, and the others saw that she was in great torment of mind. At length they arose, and took their leave of the Lady, and thanked her for her care, and went to their rest. <hr></blockquote>


Lord of the Rings, Book V Chapter 8:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> And Aragorn arose and went out, and he sent for the sons of Elrond, and together they laboured far into the night<hr></blockquote>


Lord of the Rings. Book V Chapter 9:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> But soon Aragorn arose, saying: &quot;Lo! already Minas Tirith is assailed&quot;<hr></blockquote>


Lord fo the Rings, Book VI Chapter 4:


<blockquote>Quote:<hr> And then Aragorn stood up, and all the host arose, and they passed to pavilions made ready, to eat and drink and make merry while the day lasted. <hr></blockquote>


Silmarillion Akallabeth:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> yet his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle-earth and to Mordor <hr></blockquote>


and there is alot more...

------------------------------

As for &quot;winged speed&quot; by definition in this context the term winged means &quot;move with wings or as if with wings&quot; (no I did not make thatt up if you don't believe me you can look it up yourself). This being so the passage is hardely conclusive since saying they moved as if with wings is not with out presedent in the Silmarillion where in at least to passages they are described as being extremely fast, here is one:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then suddenly Morgoth sent forth great rivers of flame that ran down swifter than Balrogs from Thangorodrim...<hr></blockquote>

If &quot;winged&quot; were used in such a context as:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ...pits of Angband there issued the winged dragons, that had not before been seen; and so sudden and ruinous was the onset of that dreadful fleet that the host of the...<hr></blockquote>

in which the term is used directly to modify the noun then your argument would work but that is not the case.

Also Tolkien has used in a number of passages the term &quot;winged&quot; to denote flying/fleeing/passing away which corresponds to my argument. One such case:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ...him ere it fled, almost gay it seemed to be casting off at last all doubt and care and fear. And then even as it winged away into forgetfulness it heard voices, and they seemed to be crying in some forgotten world far above: The Eagles are coming! The Eagles are Coming!...<hr></blockquote>

----------------------------

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> He uses &quot;pass over&quot; in relation to landbound travel only to denote a crossing of some sort--e.g., passed over a river, passed over an ocean, passed over the mountains, etc.

However, he does notably use &quot;pass [-ed, -ing] over&quot; to indicate the passage of flying creatures
through a region:<hr></blockquote>



Then how do you ex-plain the following quotes?


Lord of the Rings,Book III Chapter 2:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> At dusk they halted again. Now twice twelve leagues they had passed over the plains of Rohan and the wall of the Emyn Muil was lost in the shadows of the East. The young moon was glimmering...<hr></blockquote>


Lord of the Rings. Bok III Chapter 4:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> We crossed over Anduin and came to their land: but we found a desert: it was all burned and uprooted, for war had passed over it. But the Entwives were not there. Long we called, and long we searched; and we asked all folk that we met which way<hr></blockquote>


Lord ofthe Rings, Book V Chapter 9:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> He is watching. He sees much and hears much. His Nazgul are still abroad. They passed over this field ere the sunrise, though few of the weary and sleeping were aware of them. He studies the signs: the Sword that robbed...<hr></blockquote>


Lord of the Rings, Book VI Chapter 4:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> And they passed over Udrn and Gorgoroth and saw all the land in ruin and tumult beneath them, and before them Mount Doom blazing, pouring out its fire.<hr></blockquote>


Unfinished Tales, 1st Age:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> They walked warily when they left the woods, but all the land was empty and quiet. They passed over the tumbled stones...<hr></blockquote>


Unfinished Tales, the !st Age:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ...would pass to and fro between Thingol and his kin in Nargothrond. 22 Now they waited until the starlit night was late, and they passed over in the white mists before the dawn. <hr></blockquote>


Unfinishef Tales, The 3rd Age:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ...stern men of Arnor and war-hardened. Of their journey nothing is told until they had passed over the Dagorlad...<hr></blockquote>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> From neither is the course of the battle perhaps perfectly clear, but it seems certain that the Riders having passed over the Undeeps...<hr></blockquote>



Even if what you said was correct (and its not) Hithlim is quite mountainous.


-----------------------------------------


<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The most significant find in my research of this go-round (to my mind, anyway) is the parallel use of the &quot;like...wings&quot; in the case of the eagle in FotR. If we view this use of the simile followed by the reveal as a curiosity of Tolkien's style, repeated again with the Balrog, then the basis for reading all the other evidence metaphorically is (I think) considerably weakened. <hr></blockquote>


There is no patternsince those two passages are completely different. THe fact is Wing is used as a simile and in the same context used again in the context of a metaphor. To have a simile back up a metaphor is common practice especially when a word can not be found to form another simile for comparison. To have a word used as a simile and a literal statement ( and it is easy to misconstrue a metaphor as that due to the way in which they are inserted grammictcally) makes no sense because it confused the issue and undos the former. It simply doesn't work.

-----------------------------------

Something else which doesn't make sense is if Balrogs could fly then why would the often give up their advantage and come down to the ground?

----------------------------------------

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then suddenly Morgoth sent forth great rivers of flame that ran down swifter than Balrogs from Thangorodrim...<hr></blockquote>

if indeed Balrogs could fly then saying it &quot;ran down swifter&quot; would be an improper comparison since you would be utilizing two dissemiler acts.

--------------------------------------

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> In the front of that fire came Glaurung the golden, father of dragons, in his full might; and in his train were Balrogs, and behind them came the black armies of the Orcs in multitudes such as the Noldor had never before seen or imagined<hr></blockquote>

Where the Balrogs flying between the orcs and dragon? No, they couldn't fly, again why would they give up such a great tacticle advantage if not for combat then atl least for reconnosince.

------------------------------

more to come...

</p>

[Mister Underhill]

Dread Horseman
Posts: 685
Re: umm

Whew! There’s a lot of ground to cover here, so this one will be a whopper. But I’m up for it.

Underhill straps on his debating armor and girds himself with his weapon of choice: Tolkien’s texts...

All you proved is that tolkien used similes in other areas. This hardly proves that tolkien had a pattern of using the same word for both a simile and a physical attribute. What it does show is precedent for using a simile as a way to foreshadow the full reveal of a creature. We can’t simply take for granted the use of a metaphor, as you have done.
No if you actually look at the different texts the structure is completely different the only similarity being in both a simile was utilized. In the case of the eagle, the shadow is “like the shape of great wings”. Well, isn’t the shadow actually “the shape of great wings”? Of course it is. Tolkien has used this technique before. That’s all I’m showing. The "shadow" in this case was independant of the object because of the time differencial and the nature of such a shadow as opposed to that of the Balrog shadow, if indeed the eagle is the object, but in "the Bridge..." they are not independant at all, the shadow is a part of the Balrog( sure if the balrog was casting a shadow hen what you said would apply but that is not how it works), it is completely different and is a complete stretch. I submit that Tolkien does show a pattern of portraying mysterious characters/creatures (especially his bad guys) as “shadows” until they draw close enough to be revealed. Viz:

It looked like the black shade of a horse led by a smaller black shadow. The black shadow stood close to the point where they had left the path, and it swayed from side to side. (of a Nazgûl)

There came the soft sound of horses led with stealth along the lane. Outside the gate they stopped, and three black figures entered, like shades of night creeping across the ground. (of several Nazgûl)

Trembling he looked up, in time to see a tall dark figure like a shadow against the stars. (of the Barrow-wight)

We were outnumbered, for Mordor has allied itself with the Easterlings and the cruel Haradrim; but it was not by numbers that we were defeated. A power was there that we have not felt before. `Some said that it could be seen, like a great black horseman, a dark shadow under the moon. Wherever he came a madness filled our foes, but fear fell on our boldest, so that horse and man gave way and fled. (of a Nazgûl)

What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it. (of – what else? – the Balrog)

'Yet if so, it was a black squirrel, and I saw no tail. 'Twas like a shadow on the ground, and it whisked behind a tree-trunk when I drew nigh and went up aloft as swift as any squirrel could.’ (of Gollum)

Before them went a great cavalry of horsemen moving like ordered shadows, and at their head was one greater than all the rest: a Rider, all black, save that on his hooded head he had a helm like a crown that flickered with a perilous light… Soon he had passed, like a shadow into shadow, down the winding road, and behind him still the black ranks crossed the bridge. (of the Nazgûl and his army)

Even as he did so, a dark shape, like a cloud and yet not a cloud, for it moved far more swiftly, came out of the blackness in the South, and sped towards the Company, blotting out all light as it approached. Soon it appeared as a great winged creature, blacker than the pits in the night. (of the Nazgûl and his winged steed)

The great shadow descended like a falling cloud. And behold! it was a winged creature: if bird, then greater than all other birds, and it was naked, and neither quill nor feather did it bear, and its vast pinions were as webs of hide between horned fingers; and it stank. (also of the winged Nazgûl steed) Tolkien also frequently uses “like” in ways that shatter what you seem to perceive as the iron-bound rules for simile use. Not to belabor the point too far but here are a few instances:
But at that moment there came a sound like mingled song and laughter. (The sound is mingled song and laughter.)

A long-drawn wail came down the wind, like the cry of some evil and lonely creature. (The wail is the cry of an evil and lonely creature.)

His watch was nearly over, when, far off where he guessed that the western archway stood, he fancied that he could see two pale points of light, almost like luminous eyes. (The points of light are (Gollum’s) luminous eyes.)

Are you saying looking at the previous drafts casts no light on the intensions of the author? I’m saying that the versions you cite represent a refining process, and that attempting to figure out Tolkien’s “final intentions” from early drafts is often misleading. Your assertion that the drafts remained substantially unaltered is not correct. The earliest version (Vol 7., Sec II) doesn’t have references to either shadows or to wings. In early notes, Tolkien thought that Gandalf’s opponent might be a Nazgûl; in later notes, he wondered if the Balrog was actually Saruman. There was clearly a lot of work done here. If Tolkien wanted the Balrog to have a more menacing, imposing presence, is not equally reasonable to deduce from your references that he would add wings to achieve this effect? In regard to what exactly arose meant that can not be determined since at different times it has meant different things. Tolkien set no rules as to what specific terms such as &quot;arose&quot; which are used in an infinite variety of contexts could be used. Sure He has used the term for creature with wings but has also has not: Neither Mithadan nor I have claimed that Tolkien used “arose” only in relation to flying creatures. We’ve merely cited two instances with startlingly similar construction referring to a winged creature. As for "winged speed" by definition in this context the term winged means "move with wings or as if with wings" (no I did not make thatt up if you don't believe me you can look it up yourself). 1 a (1) : having wings "winged seeds" (2) : having wings of a specified kind -- used in combination <strong-winged> b : using wings in flight
2 a : soaring with or as if with wings.

In this case, “winged” can seemingly be read however the reader wants to read it (even your own definition says “move with wings”). But the use of the word “wing” in its various forms seems to be cropping up quite a bit, doesn’t it? Are you telling me that Tolkien, a master of the English language, a philologist by training and by nature, and a contributor to the Oxford English Dictionary, couldn’t come up with a different descriptive word to get his point clearly across? If you are, then I simply disagree with you.
This being so the passage is hardely conclusive since saying they moved as if with wings is not with out presedent in the Silmarillion where in at least to passages they are described as being extremely fast, here is one:
Then suddenly Morgoth sent forth great rivers of flame that ran down swifter than Balrogs from Thangorodrim...
It’s the “rivers of flame” (i.e, lava) that “ran down” here. It’s interesting that you use this reference. “Thangorodrim” refers to the sheer mountains reared above Angband, not the fortress itself. This analogy, especially when coupled with “flying from Thangorodrim” in LotR, is extremely suggestive of flight. See Thorondor’s rescue of Maedhros and Fingon. It’s a bit ridiculous to picture un-winged Balrogs running down sheer mountain faces.

As to the issue of their speed – I agree that they are speedy. Which to my mind argues in favor of wings. Nothing in Tolkien’s world (that I know of) travels faster than his winged creatures. His eagles, the Nazgûls’ winged steeds, and yes, the Balrogs, all travel with alarming speed. Also Tolkien has used in a number of passages the term &quot;winged&quot; to denote flying/fleeing/passing away which corresponds to my argument. I am not disputing that "winged" can be used metaphorically. But again I have to wonder why "winged", "wings", "flying", etc. keep cropping up in relation to Balrogs. Then how do you ex-plain the following quotes?

At dusk they halted again. Now twice twelve leagues they had passed over the plains of Rohan and the wall of the Emyn Muil was lost in the shadows of the East. The young moon was glimmering... I don’t think this contradicts my observation. This quote doesn’t say “They passed over the plains of Rohan”; it says they passed twice twelve leagues over the plains of Rohan. We crossed over Anduin and came to their land: but we found a desert: it was all burned and uprooted, for war had passed over it. But the Entwives were not there. Long we called, and long we searched; and we asked all folk that we met which wayIt's war that has passed "over" the land. Tolkien often likens war to a tide or a wave. I still don't think this contradicts my thesis, though I admit I'm splitting hairs a bit here. He is watching. He sees much and hears much. His Nazgul are still abroad. They passed over this field ere the sunrise, though few of the weary and sleeping were aware of them. He studies the signs: the Sword that robbed... This doesn’t help your case, but rather supports mine. The Nazgûl were traveling on winged steeds by this point. And they passed over Udrn and Gorgoroth and saw all the land in ruin and tumult beneath them, and before them Mount Doom blazing, pouring out its fire. This quote unfortunately doesn’t help your case either, since it refers to Gandalf flying with the eagles. They walked warily when they left the woods, but all the land was empty and quiet. They passed over the tumbled stones... Sounds to me like this describes climbing over the tumbled stones, not passing through a particular region. ...would pass to and fro between Thingol and his kin in Nargothrond. 22 Now they waited until the starlit night was late, and they passed over in the white mists before the dawn. Again, no help. This describes a crossing of the Twilit Meres in ferry boats....stern men of Arnor and war-hardened. Of their journey nothing is told until they had passed over the Dagorlad... The Dagorlad is a battlefield, not a region. I admit, this one is cutting it close too, but I think the useage is proper here. They crossed the battlefield. Still, even with exceptions I think there is strong evidence of a pattern here. From neither is the course of the battle perhaps perfectly clear, but it seems certain that the Riders having passed over the Undeeps... The “Undeeps” are shallow bends in the river Anduin.

Hithlim is quite mountainous. Where are you getting this from? Hithlum looks like a plain to me, and is often described as being “bounded” by various mountain ranges. And anyway, if it was mountainous, I fear that helps my argument more than it does yours, as mountainous terrain would tend to slow down landbound travel. There is no patternsince those two passages are completely different. THe fact is Wing is used as a simile and in the same context used again in the context of a metaphor. To have a simile back up a metaphor is common practice especially when a word can not be found to form another simile for comparison. To have a word used as a simile and a literal statement ( and it is easy to misconstrue a metaphor as that due to the way in which they are inserted grammictcally) makes no sense because it confused the issue and undos the former. It simply doesn't work. Whether you think it works or not, Tolkien did it. I have shown several precedents. Something else which doesn't make sense is if Balrogs could fly then why would the often give up their advantage and come down to the ground? This is one of those questions that has no real answer, like “Why didn’t the good guys just use the eagles to fly them to the Cracks of Doom and throw the Ring in?” Since the Balrogs couldn’t breathe fire, like some dragons, I imagine they had to land to engage their enemies.
”In the front of that fire came Glaurung the golden, father of dragons, in his full might; and in his train were Balrogs, and behind them came the black armies of the Orcs in multitudes such as the Noldor had never before seen or imagined”

Where the Balrogs flying between the orcs and dragon? No, they couldn't fly, again why would they give up such a great tacticle advantage if not for combat then atl least for reconnosince.
It doesn’t say that the Balrogs weren’t flying. This little bit is a greatly compressed piece of action. I don’t think you can draw any conclusive facts from it one way or the other:
Then suddenly Morgoth sent forth great rivers of flame that ran down swifter than Balrogs from Thangorodrim, and poured over all the plain; and the Mountains of Iron belched forth fires of many poisonous hues, and the fume of them stank upon the air, and was deadly. Thus Ard-galen perished, and fire devoured its grasses; and it became a burned and desolate waste, full of a choking dust, barren and lifeless. Thereafter its name was changed, and it was called Anfauglith, the Gasping Dust. Many charred bones had there their roofless grave; for many of the Noldor perished in that burning, who were caught by the running flame and could not fly to the hills. The heights of Dorthonion and Ered Wethrin held back the fiery torrents, but their woods upon the slopes that looked towards Angband were all kindled, and the smoke wrought confusion among the defenders. Thus began the fourth of the great battles, Dagor Bragollach, the Battle of Sudden Flame.

In the front of that fire came Glaurung the golden, father of dragons, in his full might; and in his train were Balrogs, and behind them came the black armies of the Orcs in multitudes such as the Noldor had never before seen or imagined. And they assaulted the fortresses of the Noldor, and broke the leaguer about Angband, and slew wherever they found them the Noldor and their allies. Grey-elves and Men. Many of the stoutest of the foes of Morgoth were destroyed in the first days of that war, bewildered and dispersed and unable to muster their strength. War ceased not wholly ever again in Beleriand; but the Battle of Sudden Flame is held to have ended with the coming of spring, when the onslaught of Morgoth grew less.



------------------------------

more to come... Lay on, Fingolfin! I’m ready!

Edited by: Mister Underhill at: 6/26/01 6:30:45 pm

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 2337</TD><TD><img src=http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/my_pic.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Can't let this thread stop.

Keep going!!

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Fingolfin]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 23</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
umm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> What it does show is precedent for using a simile as a way to foreshadow the full reveal of a creature. We can’t simply take for granted the use of a metaphor, as you have done. <hr></blockquote>

No it does not the circumstances are completely different. The Balrog is not casting a shadow as the Eagle is and if he was then I would have no argument.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> In the case of the eagle, the shadow is “like the shape of great wings”. Well, isn’t the shadow actually “the shape of great wings”? Of course it is. Tolkien has used this technique before. That’s all I’m showing.<blockquote>Quote:<hr>

Oh plz the shadow is being cast by the Eagle and so is a reflection of its form while the Balrog's shadow is part of its form. Did you even read my arguement?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I submit that Tolkien does show a pattern of portraying mysterious characters/creatures (especially his bad guys) as “shadows” until they draw close enough to b<hr></blockquote><hr></blockquote><hr></blockquote>

He did not portray the Balrog as a shadow the Shadow was a characteristic of the Balrogs corporeal form.
In your example you have only cited areas in which tolkien used shadow as in that cast and so determined by the form and where a shawdow was described because of a lack of visual stimuli. That is not the case in with the Balrog tolkien is quick dogmatic about it and as such your examples are flawed.

you didn't even respond to my point tyou side-steped it.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Tolkien also frequently uses “like” in ways that shatter what you seem to perceive as the iron-bound rules for simile use. Not to belabor the point too far but here are a few instances: <hr></blockquote>

Oh plz I never said the term &quot;like&quot; is always indictive of a simile, must I define simile for you? Context is what determines what it is and you can't argue that the text in question does not contain a simle because it does any first year english freshmen could tell you that.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I’m saying that the versions you cite represent a refining process, and that attempting to figure out Tolkien’s “final intentions” from early drafts is often misleading. Your assertion that the drafts remained substantially unaltered is not correct. The earliest version (Vol 7., Sec II) doesn’t have references to either shadows or to wings. In early notes, Tolkien thought that Gandalf’s opponent might be a Nazgûl; in later notes, he wondered if the Balrog was actually Saruman. There was clearly a lot of work done here. If Tolkien wanted the Balrog to have a more menacing, imposing presence, is not equally reasonable to deduce from your references that he would add wings to achieve this effect? <hr></blockquote>

Tolkien says himself he wanted the Balrog to seem greater then it actually was to add massive wings is to make the balrog great by definition and so it would be menacing because of its physical stature which is exactly what he wanted to avoid. To make something feel greater is not to actually make it greater.
The simile is present in the previous drafts but not the metaphor( and yes metaphors by definition seem to be statements of fact and can confuse some but the whole point of prempting the mention of wing with a simile was to make it perfctly clear) indicating that tolkien wanted to keep the idea of wings of shadow, since it is also present in the finalized version, but to have an actual appendage be present in the form of another characteristic would simply confuse the issue and in essence undo the shadow mentioning which has been maintained not only through out the drafts to the finalized version but also in the silm.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> In this case, “winged” can seemingly be read however the reader wants to read it (even your own definition says “move with wings”). But the use of the word “wing” in its various forms seems to be cropping up quite a bit, doesn’t it? Are you telling me that Tolkien, a master of the English language, a philologist by training and by nature, and a contributor to the Oxford English Dictionary, couldn’t come up with a different descriptive word to get his point clearly across? If you are, then I simply disagree with you. <hr></blockquote>

&quot;Winged&quot; in the context of your supposed proof doesn't actually have to mean that wings are in any way involved. Your own definition proves that. What I am saying is tolkien only used &quot;wing(ed)&quot; in the context of balrogs twice, hardly conclusive evidence, especially because he also used it in the context of a hobbit, perhaps hobbits have wings as well. Winged in one is often used to denote similarity as established by your definition and mine and it is not a stretch to say they moved as if with wings because I have already established that the moved very very quickly and wing in the other is in all probability a metaphor since the premptive simile established it as such.


<blockquote>Quote:<hr> It’s the “rivers of flame” (i.e, lava) that “ran down” here. It’s interesting that you use this reference. “Thangorodrim” refers to the sheer mountains reared above Angband, not the fortress itself. This analogy, especially when coupled with “flying from Thangorodrim” in LotR, is extremely suggestive of flight. See Thorondor’s rescue of Maedhros and Fingon. It’s a bit ridiculous to picture un-winged Balrogs running down sheer mountain faces.

As to the issue of their speed – I agree that they are speedy. Which to my mind argues in favor of wings. Nothing in Tolkien’s world (that I know of) travels faster than his winged creatures. His eagles, the Nazgûls’ winged steeds, and yes, the Balrogs, all travel with alarming speed. <hr></blockquote>

Pure conjecture, Are you saying there is no precident in tolkien's writings for land bound extreme speed? Plz tell me you are <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I am not disputing that &quot;winged&quot; can be used metaphorically. But again I have to wonder why &quot;winged&quot;, &quot;wings&quot;, &quot;flying&quot;, etc. keep cropping up in relation to Balrogs. <hr></blockquote>

once to denote the shadow a well established featur e of the Balrog and the other to denote speed. Again twice hardly qualifies as a pattern.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I don’t think this contradicts my observation. This quote doesn’t say They passed over the plains of Rohan; it says they passed twice twelve leagues over the plains of Rohan. <hr></blockquote>

Oh plz, how is that any differnent form: &quot;they passed with winged speed over Hithlum,&quot; the structure is exactly the same the only diffenernt being what the insertion denotes, one being speed the other distance, hardly diametric opposites.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> War passes “over” a land, not “through” it. This isn’t travel, but war. Tolkien often likens war to a tide or a wave. The useage is correct. <hr></blockquote>

Of course war passes through land. Besides War in this context is a noun not a verb and so saying that it traveled over land is no different from saying I passed over that same land unless the war was in the clouds.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> This doesn’t help your case, but rather supports mine. The Nazgûl were traveling on winged steeds by this point... <hr></blockquote>

I don't know why I typed those but it hardly hurts my case in that I mean to show that tolkien was not bound by those rules you put forth and in fact broke your commandment in a variety of ways despite the fact in some places his wording was inline with it. Looking at everything as a wehole is much more objective then looking at only certain passages.


<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The Dagorlad is a battlefield, not a region. I admit, this one is cutting it close, but I think the useage is proper here. They crossed the battlefield. <hr></blockquote>

Yes and I suppose the plains of Rohan and Hitlim are not regions either?


<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Where are you getting this from? Hithlum looks like a plain to me, and is often described as being “bounded” by various mountain ranges. And anyway, if it was mountainous, I fear that helps my argument more than it does yours, as mountainous terrain would tend to slow down landbound travel. <hr></blockquote>

I was very tired at the time of that posting and I said and posted something which really don't mnake sense in the light of day. That too does not hurt my argument since mountasinous terrain was not much of a hurtile for the creatures of morgoth but was more of a shield. Case in point Gondolin.

We have no idea how pragmatic the Balrogs were nor do I see how it matters that mountains proved a hinderance, The Blue Mountains and the Misty mountains also proved a hinderance did they not? Does that mena the Eldar flew over them? The fact is we don't know how the Balrogs traveled through mountianous regions but they did not fly. Case in poin Glorfindel's friend the jumper.


<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Whether you think it works or not, Tolkien did it. I have shown several precedents. <hr></blockquote>

You have shown nothing of the kind as I have addressed in the begining of this post. It seems you just don't wish to or can't respond. Besides you have shown no precedients paralell to the Balrog instance since the shadow is not a product of the form or lack of visusl stimulis.

Plz respond to my points instead of simply changing the issue or infering something other.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> This is one of those questions that has no real answer, like “Why didn’t the good guys just use the eagles to fly them to the Cracks of Doom and throw the Ring in?” Since the Balrogs couldn’t breathe fire, like some dragons, I imagine they had to land to engage their enemies. <hr></blockquote>

Then why is their no instance of them landing? Besides, there is a varitable coracopea or weapons they could utilize from the saftey of the air fire, even if not breathed, is one of them, (eg whips of flame)

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> It doesn’t say that the Balrogs weren’t flying. This little bit is a greatly compressed piece of action. I don’t think you can draw any conclusive facts from it one way or the other:<hr></blockquote>

Is that a response?, it clearly states that the Balrogs were behind the Dragon and the orcs were behind them. I guss it is possible that the ground under the Balrog was left empty for some reason, right? :P


<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Lay on, Fingolfin! I’m ready! <hr></blockquote>

I was going to but I didn't expect you to be so barrel-headed (not that that is a bad thing <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)"> )

-------------------------------


I dislike having to type lengthy posts in which I can only touch on each issue, perhaps it would be more apt to adress one issue at a time. especially since my time on allotted on the inter net is extremely limited <img src=frown.gif ALT=":(">


</p>

[Fingolfin]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 24</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
umm

Sorry about all the spelling and errors in grammer, as i said i have wee little time and constrained to the point of disarding grammer and various other points(for the time being) i would like to bring up but would be rather lengthy.

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Dread Horseman
Posts: 688</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: umm

Fingolfin, the conversation is now rapidly devolving into, as one observer has opined, a back-and-forth of &quot;Is not!&quot;, &quot;Is too!&quot;. Our respective arguments will have to stand or fall on their own merits, as I've answered yours as best as I can, and I don't think you've made any new points in your most recent post, only accused me of sidestepping yours.

FYI, EZBoard will automatically spell-check your post for you. All you have to do is press the button that says, &quot;Spell Check&quot; next to &quot;Add Reply&quot;. It only takes a few extra seconds and will probably make your arguments regarding grammar seem much more credible.

I have not exhausted my taste for lively, respectful debate by any means. If you care to reply in that spirit, I'll be happy to carry on.



</p>

[obloquy]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 32</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Argument.

I must say, Mister Underhill, I find your arguments to be wonderfully presented! You've all but convinced me. I think the only reason I'm not ready to say Balrogs had wings (and could thus fly, since I think the ornamental wings idea is ridiculous) is that I think Tolkien may never have chosen a solid mold for all or any of his Balrogs.

Now, my addition to this debate is for those of you who believe that the FotR has evidence enough, and that the wording itself makes this an open and shut case. This quote I believe to be pertinent: <blockquote>Quote:<hr> But Joe, taking it up carefully with both hands, like a bird's nest with eggs in it, wouldn't hear of parting with that piece of property, and persisted in standing talking over it in a most uncomfortable way.<hr></blockquote>

This is taken from Dickens' Great Expectations, as some of you may have recognized. Here, Joe holds his hat like a bird's nest. Four paragraphs later (and I promise, he's still holding a hat):<blockquote>Quote:<hr> All this time (still with both hands taking great care of the bird's nest), Joe was rolling his eyes round and round the room, and round and round the flowered pattern on my dressing gown.<hr></blockquote>

Joe's hat is not a bird's nest. Despite the marvelous Dickens' seemingly apparent claim. In fact, when reading this, one doesn't even question whether Joe was, in fact, accustomed to wear a bird's nest in place of an actual hat.

I realize that this is not Tolkien, and this is not Balrogs, but I know that some people rely solely on the English used to form their opinion. I'm not saying Tolkien couldn't have meant that the Balrog had outstretched, literal wings; I'm saying that he didn't necessarily intend for that to be the gist.

</p>

[Fingolfin]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 25</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
umm

Typically debates proceed with one party saying a fact is true while the opposite party says it is false. I don't see how this is a negative thing. You don't have to be patronizing and if you just don't want me to say anything at this board anymore becuase I annoy you then just say so. I came here expecting to debate tolkien issuse not face accusations of having a bad attitude when i simply hold to my convictions.

WHen I said you were side-steping I menat that you weren't addressing my core point, whether or not that was intentional none can say but the fact remains.

WHy do you think I wanted to focus on one point at at a time?

If you want me to leave I will. I am sure that this is not the only tolkien board out there. Have I outlived my welcome?



</p>

[GandaIf The White]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 263</TD><TD><img src=http://www.herr-der-ringe-film.de/HdR/crewmckel.JPG WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: umm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;..and its wings were spread from wall to wall.&quot;<hr></blockquote>
-FoTR, The Bridge of Khazad-Dum.

I still think that the Balrogs were winged. And I also think that they could not fly, but they used there wings for sudden bursts to &quot;draw themselves up to great heights&quot;.

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000064>GandaIf The White</A> at: 6/29/01 5:03:01 pm

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 911</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: umm

Fingolfin, the Balrog's Wings issue traditionally raises very strong sentiments and opinions in posters. The reason for this is that, unless Christopher Tolkien possesses some hidden gem on the issue, the question of whether Balrogs have wings cannot (except in the opinion of the individual reader) be resolved with certainty. There are strong arguments both for and against the creatures possessing pinions (I am pro-wings).

Although I am reluctant to put words in his mouth, Underhill did not ask you to leave but rather said that, at this moment, he does not have anything more to add. In the tradition and etiquette of this board, Underhill is suggesting that you agree to disagree, and his post should be taken as such and nothing more. You are free to continue to post on this thread or any other, and anyone, Underhill included, is free to respond...or not. You two have had a lively session providing quite a bit of info for others to make their own judgments. But I believe that Underhill thinks the dead horse has been beaten soundly enough for now. Good show to you both.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 2338</TD><TD><img src=http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/my_pic.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
A friendly word to Fingolfin ...

If you feel that someone doesn't like your arguments or your style (neither is the case in this instance, as Mithadan explained), its no reason to consider packing up and leaving. Someone as good as supporting your point as you are surely doesn't have to retreat at the first hint of animosity (again, I stress that there was none in this case). And the truth is that you won't find a more civil Tolkien discussion location anywhere on the Internet. You would have been personally lambasted ten times over already on any other board (as would have Underhill <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)"> ).

Please continue this and other discussions here. And enjoy the friendly debates that develop.

Thanks,

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Mister Underhill]

Dread Horseman
Posts: 690
Re: umm

Quite right, Mith. Fingolfin, I haven't asked you to leave. On the contrary, I encourage you to post as often as you like and to stay as long as you want to. After all, it was your first long post that reinvigorated this discussion.

But we've reached an impasse. You think I sidestepped your points; I think I met them as well as I am able. You think I am wrong about the grammar, and I think you are wrong. What am I to do? I'm certainly not going to start pulling quotes from "The Elements of Style" or some other grammar manual, and there's no point in going back over the same arguments a second time. If my arguments are insufficient, then so be it. I'm just here to have fun and express my ideas, not to win or lose.

I would add, though, that name-calling and sarcastic arguments are probably not the best way to stimulate further discussion. I am not generally inclined to spend time researching and composing posts to rebut arguments that begin with the phrase, "Oh plz..." Mithadan is right -- debates like this one that get so detail-oriented can rouse strong sentiments among the participants. I apologize if I've said something that's helped to escalate matters.


obloquy:

Thank you for the compliment. Despite being a vigorous advocate for wings, I am inclined to agree that Tolkien never really solidified his conception of Balrogs the way he did other of his creatures. Certainly we see many different versions of them throughout his work.

I am a big fan of Dickens, and I acknowledge your analogous cite. I think I disagree, though, that it really is analogous in this case. Dickens deliberately uses "bird's nest" the second time for comic effect (an ability with which he was well endowed).

I think that the same argument that non-wingers use against "its wings were spread from wall to wall" can be used equally against their own "shadow wings". If you step back a few paragraphs from "the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings", you'll find the quote I mentioned earlier: "What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater..."

Could we not contend, based on this quote, that the "shadow" itself is metaphorical -- that the Balrog's dark form, especially in the gloom of Moria, is only like a shadow? I think what's happening here is that Tolkien has swathed his beastie in shadow and darkness (as he so often did with the Nazgûl) to heighten its mystery and menace before it steps forward, stands up to its full great height and spreads its wings -- its ultimate intimidating pose.


Gandalf the White:

The argument over wings/no wings basically boils down to trying to figure out Tolkien's meaning from the words he used. Since the encounter with the Balrog is over so quickly, there is little to go on, and the little that does exist is worded in such a way that opposing interpretations of it both seem reasonable. Both sides have been trying to bring in, in effect, circumstantial evidence that tips the scales in favor of one reading over the other.

Edited by: Mister Underhill at: 6/27/01 9:30:12 am

[Fingolfin]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 26</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm Sorry :(

I am sorry I got kinda frustrated because it seemed like you weren't listening (I now know that wasn't the case <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)"> ) even so that is no excuse for my sacasim and I humbly apologize and offer up my sword.

How could we continue though, should I try to bring up another isssue since these have been covered?

</p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Dread Horseman
Posts: 691</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
No problem...

Your most gracious apology is appreciated but unnecessary. Keep on postin'!

</p>

[The Watcher in the Water]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 78</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: No problem...

I must admit that i havent been bothered to fully explore the longer posts made by Messers Fingolfin and Underhill but I just thought of something (I hope this hasnt been covered before) Just before we start I will admit that I am probably pro-wings, having not really thought about it before i just had in my mind the wings. My thought centres on the Maia nature of the Balrogs. Is it at all possible that they both do and do not have wings? WHat i mean is that could they not have some sort of shape-shifting ability with which they can assume the power of flight with wings or something. As such most times they would not appear with wings, but when required a set could materialize? I dont know that I am saying this well but what thinkest y'all?

(Once agin I hope this is a new idea and I havent bored everyone!) <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

The road goes ever on...</p>

[Glornan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 58</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: No problem...

I don't think they could shapeshift easily. I mean, all maiar/valar had to form some sort of body to be able to do stuff in ME, so they were no longer shapeless spirits. It appears that only higher, stronger, more powerful Ainur could easily shapeshift (e.g. Melkor,Sauron), and even then they could lose that ability (e.g. Sauron at the end of Numenor). So, once all the Balrogs had made themselves a body, it couldn't be changed, unless because of a wound of course.

By the way, is there any passage in the books that all the Balrogs were the same? I mean, couldn't they all have made a different body?

Glornan, Feeling sigless</p>

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I thought that it was about time to bring this topic back to everyone's attention.

Just to clear things up:

*Fordim climbs onto a high place*

BALROGS HAD WINGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!

*Fordim gets down from high place and takes a bow*

*Fordim turns and sees a large green hand coming toward him from stage left to yank him away and close the thread for good*

*Fordim cowers*

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

While reading UT yesterday, I came upon this quote.

[Voronwë: ][The Eagles] alone save the Noldor know the Hidden Kingdom and guard the skies above, though as yet no servant of the Enemy has dared to fly into the high airs.

(UT I 1- emphasis mine) Note that the emphasised part has no time limit, like “no creature of Morgoth has dared to fly...since the Eagles made abode in the Echoriath.” It means that up to that point none of Morgoth's creatures had dared to fly in the high airs.

Now, for this rescue mission...
...now swiftly [the Balrogs] arose, and passing over Hithlum they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire.

(The Silmarillion 9 - emphasis mine) How could the Balrogs fly over Hithlum without taking the high airs? Any lower and they would have met a tragic end into one of the mountains. Ergo, they didn’t use their wings to fly this mission.

[Encaitare]

Oh man. I saw the title and was just drawn in, knowing a controvery was brewing ;)

I don't think Balrogs had wings. I think the whole "shadows like wings" bit in FotR is just a metaphor for the shadow of dark power that the Balrog put out. And if they did have wings, why wouldn't the Balrog in Moria be able to fly out of the cavern under the Bridge of Khazad-Dûm? Plus, I believe I read somewhere that at one point Trolls traveled with the Balrogs, and Trolls certainly can't fly. The only thing I am sure of is that the Balrogs couldn't fly, wings or no, but I personally don't think they had wings anyway.