A Measure of Success

[Bêthberry]

To clarify what I meant . . . :D


Reading through that, I agree with you, and if this is the point Durelin was making, then I withdraw my responses as entirely too pedantic. However... I am reading you as saying that it's the system we go through to get at the games that is discouraging and patronising--not the games themselves.

Although I stepped in between your discussion with Durelin, I wasn't responding specifically to her points or that question of "bunnying" other people's characters. (And if you look back over my posts you will find I was adamantly against game owners controlling other gamer's characters and style. I even spoke of an experience I had where the game owner wanted my character to react in a particular way that I felt was contrary to her psychology.)

Instead, I was responding to the general tenor of the posts about new guidelines/rules and your to me rather frightening statement that implied things ain't gonna change when you said the new forums will resemble the old. If the new forums simply cut and paste and edit the old rules, I don't think they will accomplish the rejuvenation that we all hope to see. I like the word "etiquette" to describe the gaming milieu here and I like Fea's points, all generously describing things without becoming too prescriptive. Nicelythought out and nicely said and lightly too! And I thank you, Formy for clarifying that you meant to uphold the ethos of the games.

And to be honest, sometimes it was the games themselves that were discouraging to me (can't speak for others). I came to feel that the planning and even discussion threads were taking the place of the interactive nature of RPGing, so that writing the actual post became perfunctory and even redundant. It had already all been said! We seem to be very good at coming up with clever characters but somehow the stories just don't get written.


However, even in a looser, open-ended game, my impression was still that individual players would have individual characters, which implies a sense of investment and ownership. Given that, it seems only common courtesy to me that the player with that ownership would still be deferred to where that character is considered.

Of course!

If we're talking about collaborative story-writing, where there is no identification of player with character, but merely mass ownership of the entire story without authorial division by character, then we're talking about something that hardly qualifies as role-playing, and might be more akin to co-written fanfiction. And while I'm not saying there's no room for that on the Downs, I guess I didn't think we were discussing that far outside the box.

That's not what I mean by any means. :D

Anyhow, thanks Formy for replying at length and so generously to my concerns.

[Formendacil]

Anyhow, thanks Formy for replying at length and so generously to my concerns.

You're most welcome--if there's anything I do well, it's writing at length. :-p

For what it's worth, I may as well mention that my "hermeneutic" for approaching change is strongly influenced by a variety of theological and liturgical opinions that really have nothing to do with RPing, but have a lot to do with how I make analogies in my head from RPing to the Second Vatican Council. Put as simply as I can make it, I'm all for aggiornamento and opening the windows, so the speak (I agree things are shabby and in need of a thorough opening up), but I am by nature concerned that in opening the windows and dusting things off that the furniture will end up getting chucked out the window.

Not that this is by any means liable to happen in the Downs RPing forums... but that gives you a sort of mindframe to view me through: a Vatican II Catholic with a hermeneutic of continuity with what came before. Change is good, but not change for the sake of change.

[/off-topic]

[Mithadan]

Mithadan has downloaded the last several pages of this thread (without member names, intentionally) to a Word document to read it all and make some decisions. It's taking longer than expected.

FYI the Word document, in 10 point type, is 74 pages long!

So, I'm working on it....

[Bêthberry]

For what it's worth, I may as well mention that my "hermeneutic" for approaching change is strongly influenced by a variety of theological and liturgical opinions that really have nothing to do with RPing, but have a lot to do with how I make analogies in my head from RPing to the Second Vatican Council. Put as simply as I can make it, I'm all for aggiornamento and opening the windows, so the speak (I agree things are shabby and in need of a thorough opening up), but I am by nature concerned that in opening the windows and dusting things off that the furniture will end up getting chucked out the window.

Not that this is by any means liable to happen in the Downs RPing forums... but that gives you a sort of mindframe to view me through: a Vatican II Catholic with a hermeneutic of continuity with what came before. Change is good, but not change for the sake of change.

[/off-topic]

*coughs*

Possibly you were sounding more like the Council of Trent than the Second Vatican Council and I wasn't quite thinking of myself as a heretic. :D ;)

*coughs*

[/end off-topic]

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

FYI the Word document, in 10 point type, is 74 pages long!

We... we love you a lot.

[Mithalwen]

So, I'm working on it....

But are you billing us for it?

Mithalwen (still a Lawyer's brat) also knows she would have been burnt at the stake in an earlier era....

Probably just for being obnoxious :o rather than from theological ideology...

[Mithadan]

$400 per hour. Pass the hat...:smokin:

[Mithalwen]

Nah, with my bean counter hat on I will break it down to find the words per minute rate and invoice the individual posters proportionally....

That, or see if the Pan Man is cheaper... :cool:

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

$400 per hour. Pass the hat...:smokin:

You're fired unless you agree to work pro bono. :)

[Mithadan]

I would like to begin by thanking all of you for posting your thoughts and suggestions. In particular, I’d like to thank Durelin for starting up this conversation. It seems to be long overdue. I’d also like to thank you all for your patience. I really did read all of the 77 odd pages of everyone’s posts before committing this to writing.

Before I set out my proposals, I’d like to respond to some comments, both public (no offense taken) and private, suggesting that I have been “secretive”, “deliberately obtuse”, or complaining that I have not posted my own views on how things should change or be structured. With apologies, my approach during the last few weeks has been intentional. When this discussion began, I immediately had a number of ideas on how things should be done. I chose not to post my own thoughts for three reasons. First, I really wanted to see what our members’ opinions and views were before making decisions, and I wanted to allow myself to be open-minded and influenced by what others were saying. Second, I wanted to encourage a free exchange of thoughts and views (so yes, I did employ the Socratic method to an extent). Third, to the extent we implement change, I do not want it to be exclusively imposed “from above” by the Administrators, but rather wanted the ideas to come from all of you.

What follows is in the form of a proposal. It is the way I think the Forums should be restructured and operated going forward. I think it takes into account not only our members’ concerns and desires but also the practicalities of managing and operating the forums. This said, I invite comments and criticism for a short period of time, say three days unless more discussion is really needed. After that, we will begin implementing our changes.

Also, keep in mind that this is all somewhat experimental. We need to see how things work and may need to tweak things more as time passes. Some of my proposals below are very specifically “FOR NOW” and will be stated as such. This is because we need to begin a little carefully, and then can loosen things up as we get our “sea legs”.

RPG Forums Version 3.0

A. Number of Forums.

Three (plus Elvenhome). This is, by the way, an issue where your suggestions changed my mind (more than once).

(1) The Game Forum, which will include the ongoing games and their discussion threads. The Inns would either be in this Forum of the Game Development Forum, whichever you all think is better.

(2) The Game Development Forum, for threads regarding proposed new games and related discussions. Each proposed new game should have its own thread which will be closed and deleted or moved after the game starts. Each thread should begin with a basic description of the game, type of game, anticipated length, skill level (if appropriate) and the Game Owner’s thoughts regarding types of characters needed. Members should post to refine the game idea, propose characters, etc. Recruiting can take place here. The Mods will monitor the proposal threads and make appropriate suggestions.

(3) The Rules and Resources Forum, which will include, of course, the forum rules and guidelines, existing “game seed” threads and gamer resource threads, etc. This will be a library of sorts. Most of the threads will be closed to posting except for a current resources thread. By resources, I mean links to websites having information benefiting members, such as sites describing weaponry and fighting, types of ships, writing tips, etc. The rules will be a liberalized (and hopefully somewhat shorter) version of the present Shire Rules revised to conform to this outline.

If as time passes there appears to be a real need for multiple game forums, we can revisit this issue, but I don’t think there is such a need now.

B. Types of Games.

We should have both Plot Based Games (story oriented games), focusing upon writing a tale outlined (and within reason controlled or managed) by the Game Owner, and Character Based Games (more spontaneous, less strictly controlled and scripted).

We should flesh out the definitions better, however a Plot Based Game is one where the Game Owner sets out a relatively detailed plot and character summary at the outset and takes a somewhat more active role in guiding the RPG from start to finish. As some have said, this is more like cooperative writing of a story.

A Character Based Game will begin with a much less detailed plot summary and the players will be able (and expected) to create the story as it progresses. This is where posts with “hooks” for people to respond to and plotting or cooperation between small (and often shifting) groups of players will take a greater role. This is more of a freestyle game.

The planning threads for each game should very CLEARLY indicate what type of game is being proposed. The planning thread should also include any conditions or restrictions that the Game Owner intends to impose, i.e. “I will be putting up obstacles and challenges as the game progresses” or “I will be controlling the progress of the plot and may ask you to rewrite posts that are inconsistent with what I have planned”.

If the game targets a particular skill level, this should also be indicated in the planning thread. FOR NOW, I would like to see all new games “open to all skill levels”. Later, we can move on to some games that cater to “intermediate” or “advanced” so long as games open to newcomers are always available.

C. Length of Games.

All games (other than the Inns) must have a definable beginning and end and an expected duration. FOR NOW, I would like us to begin with games of relatively short expected duration, less than three months and preferably four to six weeks, until we can see what the forums can sustain and to give interested members a chance to join and participate.

Expected duration is not hard and fast. If you estimate six weeks and the game takes eight or ten, so long as the game moves along and everyone is informed that the game is running over, this is fine. If a six week games turns into three or four months, or if the game is simply not progressing, expect to hear from the Mods.

D. Number of Games Running at One Time.

To ensure that we don’t have more games than our members can support (and to avoid members “doubling up” on games and over-committing), I think that FOR NOW we should limit the number of new games starting and running. I don’t know how many is the right number and I also don’t know how existing and ongoing games fit into this. I am very open to some form of queue system as you may propose. Otherwise, the Mods will have to police this issue.

E. Responsibilities of Game Owners.

Anyone who has participated in a RPG on the Downs previously may be a Game Owner. If you have abandoned a game previously, or have very limited experience, the Mods may require a co-Owner.

The whole concept here is to shift responsibility from the Mods to the Game Owners (or Managers, Facilitators, whatever title you want) to run and complete games. This is the only way this will work.

Game Owners will be responsible for creating and describing their concept in the Planning Threads, recruiting players, making the game move along, replacing absentee members and bring their game to completion in a more or less timely fashion.

Each game owner may recruit and select his or her own players, however, we REALLY need to avoid excluding people, particularly newcomers, until we reach some degree of a critical mass of games. If your game calls for a specific skill level, the Game Owner may POLITELY refuse to allow a less experienced player to join or allocate a lesser role to that player.

If a player goes AWOL, the Game Owner may, after PMing the missing player, replace him with another, or allocate his role to one or more existing players. Do not wait for a missing player to return, particularly if he or she disappears without notice.

Game Owners must identify the game type, Plot or Character Based, at the outset, and once done cannot change the rules in mid-stream. Game Owners must identify any restrictions or controls of game play at the outset. Don’t expect to be able to PM a member to say “change this” in a Character Based Game or if you haven’t otherwise given fair warning.

If a Game Owner abandons a game without notice, they will not be allowed to start a new game for an appropriate period of time. Absentee Owners are simply not acceptable. If an Owner realizes he or she must take time off or leave a game, the Mods must be notified and a replacement must be found.

Expected frequency of posting is to be set out in the Planning Thread with the initial outline and the Owner must get all players to commit to the expected frequency of posting and enforce it via PM and in the discussion thread. PM the Mods if you don’t get cooperation.

F. Starting New Games.

I can hear the cheers already. The formal game proposal procedures are no more. The Planning Threads will serve as the way to flesh out a concept. The Mods will monitor these threads and make suggestions as needed. Once the planning of a game is completed, please PM the Mod and say “we think we’re ready to start”. So long as there are no canonicity issues or questions regarding whether the Forum can support a new game (queue suggestions anyone?) the Owner can start the game and discussion threads in the Game Forum. The discussion thread should include in its first post the Game Outline and any character bios.

G. The Game Outline.

This is the beginning of any Planning Thread. It must include the proposed game name, setting (geographic and in time), the game type, skill level, expected duration and posting frequency, game restrictions or Owner conditions, and the plot outline. As always, the Outline must have a definable beginning and end.

The plot outline should be more detailed in Plot Based Games and less detailed in Character Based Games. It should include roughly how many and what type of characters are wanted. An example of a Character Based Game plot outline is as follows:

“A group of 5 travelers meet in an Inn in a small settlement in Rohan at the outset of the War of the Ring. They exchange stories until the settlement is attacked by Orcs and Men out of Orthanc. The travelers join the settlers in attempting to fight off the attack.”

There is a definable end; the end of the attack, win, lose or draw. There is considerable freedom for the characters to develop the plot themselves. You could have members playing Orcs. You could have an undisclosed traitor in the Inn. The story should tell itself as it progresses.

A Plot Based Game must give enough detail for the players to understand the story to be told and the roles of their respective characters.

H. Character Bios.

At least a minimal Bio must be posted for every RPG (not Inn) character. This must include at least the character name, race, and significant physical and personality traits. The Bio must be as detailed as the Game Owner requires. The Game Owner may require a brief backstory.

I. The Mods and Their Roles.

Piosenniel will continue in her role as chief Moderator of the Forums. We have three volunteers to assist her and she will allocate their roles and responsibilities.

The Mods will monitor the Planning Threads and story outlines. They will also monitor the number of games running and the progress of the games. If there seem to be more games running than the Forums can support, the Mod can ask that the start of a game be delayed. If a game is running too long, they will PM the Owner. If a game seems to be abandoned or on the verge of failing, they will PM the Owner and/or players. Any disputes should be referred to the Mods, as should absentee owners or players. One or more of the Mods will also be involved in the Inns, either directly as Innkeeper, or indirectly. The Mods will try to keep track of players looking for games and insert them into start up or, if appropriate, pending games. They will move games that are concluded to Elvenhome and deal with abandoned games as well.

The goal is for the Mods to be as hands off as possible. But they are responsible for order and operations.

J. The Inns.

It seems that Scarburg Meadhall continues to be popular and desired (perhaps as an RPG rather than an Inn?). There should be one or two other Inns, perhaps one for newcomers and a second for more experienced players. I leave it to Piosenniel to decide if existing Inns should be used or new ones started.

Inns are places to socialize in character and test character ideas and otherwise experiment. They are a great place to practice, to show that you are interested in joining a game or to just have fun. They should be far less informal than games, but members should still assume a character there. Talking generally about games and planning should take place in the Planning Threads or the Game Discussion Threads.

[Mnemosyne]

Thanks for all your hard work on this, Mithadan. The reboot looks fine to me.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

This looks wonderful, Mithadan. Thank you for your hard work, and also for your understanding and patience.

[Firefoot]

^ Big green thumb's up.

[Formendacil]

I have nothing to add to the accolades, save that I agree with them. The new proposal looks good to me, and seems to encompass pretty much all of the concerns brought up in this discussion.

[Durelin]

I think it looks like a great proposal and I think the proposal outlines good change.

My only concerns are with the firm line between 'Game Development' and 'Game Running' essentially. It kinda seems to force a detailed planning period before you even start the game (even though I realize it won't be required, right?), which may make people feel like they have to have everything set in stone before they start the game...because once the planning thread is done, it's done! And limiting recruitment to a planning period also restricts keeping a game open to new players. I know someone, I think Form, commented on the concern that 'only people involved in the game read discussion threads,' and thus you need a planning thread to make it feel open to new people/outsiders I suppose. And having a planning thread, which is the 'open' sort of thread, and then the discussion thread, makes the latter the 'closed' thread.

Maybe in the development forum we could have some sort of 'recruiting'/game advertising method in addition to game planning? Edit: That can be used during a game to give notice of on-going games/games without a planning thread that are open to new players, etc.

Also the line between the *plot based* and *character based* also kinda bothers me, and as Mithadan pointed out, you'd need to define them specifically in order to use them as labels...which is difficult. I think it makes sense for someone to set out at the beginning what the 'feel' of the game will be, the pace of it, etc...but specifically defining two different types/categories is a little constricting maybe, if perhaps necessary.

Re limiting the number of games -- should Piosenniel and/or Mithadan just decide when enough's enough for now and close the opening of games, if in fact there is an explosion of them? (Which is basically what is said under the 'Mods and their roles' section)

And I understand the desire for time limits so I'll not whine about that. :p

[Mithadan]

Maybe in the development forum we could have some sort of 'recruiting'/game advertising method in addition to game planning? Edit: That can be used during a game to give notice of on-going games/games without a planning thread that are open to new players, etc.

Agreed.

Any suggestions on defining Plot Based versus Character Based Games?

Any suggestions for a queue system, maybe based upon what is used in WW? Such a system might lessen the need for Mods to interfere with games starting due to concerns regarding too many games running at the same time.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Plot Based Games: games wherein the players write with an eye toward fleshing out a story from a series of predetermined plot points.

Character Based Games: games wherein major plot points develop organically from the behaviors of the players' characters.

Does this help?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Ah, and a queue system... Should we perhaps have a queue thread (cleverly named Queue Thread) wherein people interested in owning a game express their interest? A list can be made pretty informally. Until we know how many people even want to run a game, it will be hard to make any regulations or guidelines about how many games can be run.

[Thinlómien]

Oh, thanks Mithadan! I was quite desperate trying to skim through all the pages that had appeared while I was absent, now there seems to be a sensible outline. Looks good to me.

One question though - you say the number of games should be limited at first. How do old games dugfrom Elvenhome fit in the scheme? Pio recently closed The Tears of Mirrormere RPG but we might dig it up in the next few months - are there some limits to this, should we recruit new players, etc?

[Mithadan]

Sorry for the delay, guys.

There being no further comments or suggestions, this discussion (but not this thread) is officially closed. New forums (New Smials?) will be opening soon.

[Mithadan]

The re-boot and structural changes are done. Thanks to Mr. Underhill for his technical assistance.

Enjoy!

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Thank you EVERYONE for collaborating on this in such a true democratic fashion!

[Bêthberry]

And congratulations Fea and Formy on becoming the new Assistant Moderators. :smokin:

I think you two will make a most interesting pairing and I'm sure pio will appreciate the help and support.

Good luck with all these new smial thingies. :)

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I think you two will make a most interesting pairing and I'm sure pio will appreciate the help and support.

Just wait until you see the new 'Inn' we're setting up. :Merisu:

[piosenniel]

Just wait until you see the new 'Inn' we're setting up. :Merisu:

Yes, looking forward to meandering in . . .

~*~ Pio :)

[Anguirel]

trivial I know, but I do really miss the Tolkien location names and would be much happier if some version returned with functional sub-titles. Other than that though looks very elegant