Lonely Star: Fanfiction/RPG discussion [Archive] - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Child of the 7th Age

09-02-2002, 11:34 PM

Mithadan's proposed background information:

Mithadan was born the third and youngest son of Galasmir, lord of the small port town of Lond Lefnui which lay in the Anfalas of Gondor. It was said that Galasmir and his sons were descended in direct line from Elros, son of Earendil, and thus were possessed of a degree of Elven blood. Indeed the loremasters of Gondor had presented Galasmir with a scroll, naming each of his ancestors back to the First Age and, on feast days, he would produce the scroll for his guests and point proudly to the names which appeared at the head of the list: "Beren Erchamion (Camlost) and Luthien (Tinuviel)."

But the days of the First Age were long passed and now rarely did any sign of Elvish blood appear in that line. Indeed, Galasmir had fair hair and brown eyes as did two of his sons. But Mithadan was born with grey eyes and their colour did not fade or change in the weeks before his naming and thus his name was chosen. And his hair was not fair but rather raven black, the colour of the midnight sky. He grew tall and straight and when he reached his manhood, some whispered as he passed, "Verily, it is true the ancient saying that the line of Luthien and Beren shall never fail."

Yet he remained the youngest son of a lesser, though prosperous, lord of Gondor. He had barely reached the age of twenty years at the time of the War of the Ring and had been left behind by his father to guard the town and its port while Galasmir and his other sons marched proudly to Minas Tirith. While his role was an honourable one and indeed the Corsiars of Umbar landed a force of many men in Anfalas seeking to take the port, Mithadan was ever ashamed that he did not take part in the greater events to the east. And ever and anon some foolish cot holder, whether out of spite or besottedness, would name him Mithadan the Meaningless and it cannot be said that word of this did not reach his ears.

Thus, when his brothers returned from the War (Galasmir was slain in the Siege) Mithadan resumed his studies with renewed vigor and soon, taking some few tokens of his house with him, apprenticed as a mariner. Not long thereafter, he demonstrated sufficient skill and valour in repelling a raid out of Umbar that he was given command of his own vessel and began trading along the coasts traveling even as far as the Grey Havens far to the North. And Mithadan loved especially his visits to this Elven port for, as a child, he had explored the deserted haven of Edhellond which lay to the east of his home. With a few friends, he had snuck secretly from his house and, ignoring the legends that the haven was haunted, had journeyed there and stayed for several days with his fellows, fighting feigned battles in the defense of Gondolin where his ancestor Earendil had been born. When he returned days later, his father had beaten him soundly and forbade him from returning to the ruined city. But ever after, he fondly recalled those few days when he and his friends had been counted among the mighty of Beleriand.

Now, on one such journey to the Grey Havens, he returned with both cargo and passengers and among these was a strange Elf named Piosenniel. Tall and fair as any Elf, Piosenniel had dark hair which was oddly curled for one of the Eldar. On a leather belt, Piosenniel carried a sword and a number of sheathed knives. The belt held up breeches which in turn covered the tops of worn leather boots, a wanderer clearly this Elf. But what was most strange was that this well-armed, soldierly Elf was a maiden.

Mithadan knew that Elves valued their privacy but he found himself very curious about Piosennel. Elven maids rarely bear arms except at last resort, it was said, though none could deny their valour if old tales be true. However, she was aloof and singularly disinterested in speaking with him. The extent of their first conversation was that she was bound for Gondor, her errand was her own thank you, and no she would not join him at the Captain's Table. If the youngest son of a lesser lord learns little, one thing he learns is politeness. So he troubled her little, though politeness does not satisfy curiosity.

From other passengers, Mithadan learned that Piosenniel was well known in both the Grey Havens and Rivendell and had been rumoured to join the traveling companies at times, whatever they were. She was typically well mannered, if quiet, but was known to be impatient and said to be brave to the point of foolhardiness. She was also rumoured to be of odd heritage though none knew, or told, why.

No more could Mithadan learn and he resolved to let the matter drop as his vessel approached the Mouths of the Anduin. Here his helmsmanship and navigational skills were needed and there was little time to think of the secretive Elf. He assumed that Piosenniel would occupy some small place in his memory along with the many others who passed briefly through his life. But this was not to be.

_____________________________________________

Monday, I hope to put up the other background discussion which Mith and I had regarding the prior "adventure" concerning the Star. That was simply a discussion, not a draft of anything, and needs much more refinement and input (I hate that word!) from everyone. sharon

[ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: Mithadan ]

Mithadan

09-03-2002, 07:45 AM

Bird, explain away! We know little about the Beornings and I can see no reason why a skilled shapechanger could not learn more than one shape. There's lots to discuss about who everyone is and how they got to where they needed to be at the outset of the tale. I'll wait for Child to post our earlier and very informal exchanges.

Birdland

09-03-2002, 10:02 AM

Yet he remained the youngest son of a lesser, though prosperous, lord of Gondor.
Everybody's talkin 'bout the Seventh Son,
In the whole, wide world there is the only one!

Oops, sorry about that, Mith.

OK, I'll post "The Natural History of the Skin-Changers" tonight. As to how Birdie and Pio came to be friends; right now I can only think in terms of a Sancho Panza/Don Quixote kind of deal. But that doesn't really work, because as far as I recall Birdie never did a lick of work for Pio in the whole story.

Got any ideas, Pio?

Child of the 7th Age

09-03-2002, 10:40 AM

I have two questions that need some clarification before I can go forward with Child's background.

QUESTION ONE: I really need to know what year of the Fourth Age our adventure starts in. I'm trying to think about Child's background, who she is and where she is from. Since some of the points of Child's background touch upon Bilbo's life as well as the Scouring of the Shire, I need to know how old Child would be at those times.

My impression is that we're in the first 20 years of the Fourth Age when we start out. If I had a preference, I would say 10 years into the 4th Age. What do others think?

Mith, I think this would effect you somewhat as well, since you have a reference in your introductory statement that you were in your 20s during the Ring War.

It's not that I plan to announce the exact year in the story, but I need some chronological guidelines to make sure I'm being realistic in discussing my character's past. E.g., Child could not have "studied" with Bilbo at the age of two years!

QUESTION TWO: Did hobbits ever marry as 'tweeners or did they have to be "of age", i.e 33, to get married? This is in relation to the late Third Age.

(This is an interesting point even outside this RPG. If they were always 33 or older, even for the girls, you'd have to assume that their fertility cycle was different than that of Man, since they seem to have had large families.)

sharon

Child of the 7th Age

09-03-2002, 01:37 PM

I think that Child left the Shire after the Scouring and went to live in the world of men. Her husband or fiancee (depending on her age) was killed in the Scouring, and this was the immediate reason for her departure. It also had to do with the things she had learned, and feeling closed in by the Shire community. She presumably worked with children, either as a nanny or teacher, perhaps in the household of a minor lord. I have no idea how she met Pio, but it must have been in that stage of her life.

Do you think it is possible that a hobbit woman would do such a thing? Remember that Child had some basic education from her neighbor Bilbo, and presumably might have had some contacts through that. Any ideas?? Comments??

Rose is a young relation. She's an orphan (sorry Bird! sory Rose!!) and has been given to Child by Rose's aunt to keep an eye on her for a bit. Rose has the option of staying with Child at the end of the story or going home to her aunt and uncle in the Shire (or becoming a hobbrim, I guess.)

sharon

Rose Cotton

09-03-2002, 02:31 PM

Well I'm definatly not going to go live with some Aunt.

Hmmmmmm...Live with Child or be a Hobbrim...
That's a tough one, I'd have to think about it. smilies/wink.gif
Naaaa, Are you kidding Child? Your stuck with me whether you like it or not. smilies/biggrin.gif

How old would I be? Where there really Goodchilds? If not then I could make up my parents and give them some heroic death. Or we could just be boring and say they drowned. smilies/rolleyes.gif
Am I in my tweens or am I younger then that. I'd have to be older then Daisy and she's 16. If I know how old I am in the story I can determine when my parents died, how long I lived with this mysterious Aunt and when Child took costody of me.

When you adopt me will we imedeatly leave the Shire for wherever? I'm probably asking too many questions. But I just love the idea of this being a real story.

piosenniel

09-03-2002, 10:28 PM

What background info is required of Pio? Other than what she blathered on about just before the excursion into Beleriand?

I just found out I have to rework the Pio's father angle - It has recently come to my attention through reading and discussion on another board that the two sons of Dior probably were young children when they die in the assault on Menegroth. So, I guess I'll be inventing another elven daddy!

When I get it figured out, I'll go back to my 'Pio History' posts and edit them appropriately.

mark12_30

09-03-2002, 11:01 PM

I'm blythely and glibly assuming that my characters, not being "originals", need no introduction besides what is in the text of the story; Child, is that so?

But you could end up stuck with Gamba's songbook, wondering where to put it.

Child of the 7th Age

09-03-2002, 11:17 PM

Pio -- the background information may be things like this:

1. how did Pio become friends with Child and Bird. There are several indications in the story that their friendship goes back some time.

2. how did we get the Star and the time travel device? It grew out of the Blue Wizard story. Do we want to keep the Wizards as backgound?--probably not. But if not that way, then how?

Mith and I had one preliminary exchange of ideas on this. I have listed it below.

SHARON: Perhaps, the original background story might read like this. Piosenniel and her friends -- Child, Rose, Bird, Veritas--had an adventure where they discovered an Elvish ship being sailed by someone (a Man impersonating Cirdan??) who claims to be taking yearning travellers (not Elvish ones) to the Blessed Lands. He has stolen the ship from some unknown location. His actual plot is to steal their things and dump the unfortunates in the middle of the seas.

With the help of some of Pio's Elvish friends and of Tuor and Idril, our group was able to stop this deception and seize back the ship. (The Valar didn't like this scheme, and this is why Tuor and Idril were sent out to help. --We have to have something in the background story to explain their presence with us.) As a reward, Pio and her friends have been granted the ship. Pio is coming to Gondor to discover more about the strange device on the helm (i.e. the time travel thing).

MITHADAN: A few difficulties with your proposal: You'll have to explain what Pio, Child, Rose, and Bird are doing together/ How would a man get an Elven ship? How would a man or an Elf for that matter, have the time travel device?

But some pieces of it work. How about this? A man" is in Gondor, recruiting the hobbits, there on another errand, for this voyage to Valinor. My draft bakstop stas basically intact. Mith and Pio become aware of what sounds to them like an evil plot. Either they pursue the Star in Mith's ship or Pio goes along on the Star and Mith follows. When the Star is caught the "Man" disappears (perhaps he is Ancalimon in disguise as we later discover--though this may be a paradox--I hate time travel stories) When the Star is searched, the device is found. Its purpose is discovered through experimentation, or Tuor and Idril explain it (this gives them a real reason to return to Middle-earth. We find Kali, etc. But where does Angara come in? We'll have to work through all these issues.

piosenniel

09-04-2002, 02:15 AM

But some pieces of it work. How about this? A man" is in Gondor, recruiting the hobbits, there on another errand, for this voyage to Valinor. My draft bakstop stays basically intact. Mith and Pio become aware of what sounds to them like an evil plot. Either they pursue the Star in Mith's ship or Pio goes along on the Star and Mith follows. When the Star is caught the "Man" disappears (perhaps he is Ancalimon in disguise as we later discover--though this may be a paradox--I hate time travel stories) When the Star is searched, the device is found. Its purpose is discovered through experimentation, or Tuor and Idril explain it (this gives them a real reason to return to Middle-earth. We find Kali, etc. But where does Angara come in? We'll have to work through all these issues.

*****************************************

If we use Mithadan's backstory for the intro, then this would seem to be a more natural link-up to it.

I do have several comments about it:

Child has always had a fascination with, yearning for, the West, it would only seem natural that she and Rose would be taken in by the promise of sailing to Valinor.

It seems as if Pio and Mith have managed to become acquainted with each other. We would need to say something about how that occurred.(since the last we heard, she had politely refused his invitation to dine at the captain's table and then left for Gondor, and he had gone on with his busy life)

The 'man' who disappears does not necessarily have to be Ancalimon - he can simply be one recruited by Ancalimon, or even sent by Nienna, to effect the delivery of the elven ship and the time crystal to those who will become the companions. Tuor and Idril can then show up to explain the use of the crystal to us and be sufficiently elvishly vague about the identity of who sent the 'man'(eg. 'The One Who Lives West of West') Somewhere after this sketchy info is given, we can recruit Veritas - whom Pio knows to be a wiz at figuring out the intricacies of all sorts of devices.

Can Angara simply come with the ship? Or can Tuor and Idril bring her to us as a needed companion? They would be intimately acquainted with evil Wyrms. Perhaps she is to be the one sent to 'redeem' the history of the dragon folk.

Bird is an old travelling comrade of Pio's. they've been through rough situations together, and have an easy sort of camaraderie. Let's have them be travelling together and staying at some dive in Gondor, as they are low on funds and 'between' jobs so to speak. Perhaps Mithadan can have a chance meeting with Pio and the strange story of the 'trip to Valinor' ship can be told by him. A plan is hatched (this would be just the type of odd and possibly unsavory adventure that Bird and Pio excel at) and the three of them would go to 'save' the hobbits and Bird and Pio to make what monies they can from it.

Then on to Kali, and back to pick up Khelek when we time shift to 4th Age Gondor.

Think this is workable?

[ September 04, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ]

Child of the 7th Age

09-04-2002, 12:16 PM

Pio and Mith --

Bear with me. This will be long.

I have hesitations about this. I know that I suggested some of it myself so I'm sorry, but I see problems. The is particularly true if we assume the person on board is Ancalimon or his agent, or another Valar agent. Let me explain.

Everything I know about Ancalimon and the Valar suggests they wouldn't have used a "ruse" like this. Whoever did this is deceiving hobbits. By offering a trip to Valinor, even in jest, they are encouraging hobbits to consider avoiding their "doom", that of being mortal. In Tolkien, this is a serious charge. Why would one of the Maiar or Valar suggest hobbits go against a basic precept of Eru, even if it's only done as a means to get us the ship?

Plus Ancalimon has always treated hobbits with respect and affection, and maybe a little exasperation, but he has never belittled them. This ruse makes hobbits look a bit gullible and silly and, also, as if they can be easily misled. That isn't so. Hobbits were chosen to carry the Ring both because their ambitions were small and they were resistent to deceit.

When you're under four feet and you live in a world of Men and Elves who may be twice your height, the one thing you have going is your wits and your brain (not in an academic sense, but in a practical one). You may be tricky or deceptive but you're not gullible. And you don't trust strange situations or people.

Just look at Sam's attitude about life. Tolkien calls him (not Frodo) the most repesentative hobbit. No self respecting hobbit (Child included) would trust a big person in this way to sell their possessions and get on a ship bound for someplace they've never been. Remember Child's own experiences. Living among men, she has received her share of stares and raised eyebrows. Remember how she and Bilbo heard the "learned" Men announcing that hobbits were "animals." In the Fourth Age, Men couldn't even come in to the Shire, so how are they supposed to attract all these hobbit recruits?

Also, Child's interest in Valinor is atypical. Because of her love of lore, she might want to sail to the West, but most hobbits couldn't care less! Generally, they live in the present, not the past like Child, or the future like most men.The one race that historically wanted to avoid their "doom" was Men, not hobbits (sorry Mith!) I think you'd have more takers for a trip like this in a community of men. (Sharon might stand in line for the first ticket on the mystery ship to Valinor, but Child would wait by the side and suspect a trick.)

So I don't see why you'd have someone from Valinor pulling a scheme like this. And I don't think hobbits would volunteer to go. (LOL) Plus, without Ancalimon, just putting a "trickster" in his place, I don't like the idea of getting such a wonderful magical ship from an "impure" source. It should be clear and light, just like the phial of Galadriel (see below on proposed origin of our ship.)

Where does this leave us? Perhaps we need a simpler approach. If one of the Valar or Maiar wanted someone from Middle-earth to go on a quest, I think they would have done exactly what was done with both Bilbo and Frodo. They'd have sent an agent or gone themself to speak with that person. The person would be given a chance to say "yes or no" with no trickery involved. (They might not understand the full extent of their commitment, but that's another question--who does in life?).

And who would initially be the one "chosen" by the Valar? I think it would be Pio because of her dual heritage. She fills both sides of the prophecy. (Hey, maybe we should have a prophecy aboutthat.)

I think Idril and Tuor would have been the agents sent to Pio for this purpose. Maybe they even felt a bit sad because they had some premonition that all might not end well. Plus, Pio already knew them, and they understood the secret of her heritage. (The reader won't be told this secret yet.)

This kind of introduction also makes Pio's death even more critical in the story line. A little like losing Gandalf in LotR.

It's quite possible that Pio was even waiting in line at Grey Havens ready to board the boat to you-know-where, and she gets pulled out of line with this strange request. Tuor and Idril tell her simply that some of her hobbit kin have been lost in the Bay of ????. She must rescue them, find out their needs, and try to help them. She is told to pick her own crew. It must include hobbits, Elves, and men, including one hobbit who is of full age. Pio assumes the Elves and men are the practical ones who will carry out the actual mission, and the hobbits are along simply to make the rescued hobbits feel comfortable. (Boy, is she wrong. Pio has a lot to learn about hobbits!)

Just as Frodo received the phial of Galadriel, Pio is given the ship on loan from Tuor and Idril who have sailed it from Valinor. But NOT the time-travel device. That will come later. Pio picks up her friends Veritas and Bird and they sail to Minas Tirith with Tuor and Idril trailing behind in their own ship. Pio wants to find out more information regarding that bay, maps, hobbit history, etc.. As Pio starts her voyage, she is startled to disover that a small green dragon sits at the top of her mast.

(***I will need to edit my own posts about "owning" the dragon, although it's clear Angara is curious about hobbits and pushes her way gently into my mind.) The idea about Angara avenging her kin is a good one.

The story begins with the background already written by Mith. Then Mith encounters Pio some place (tavern, library??). Pio tells the above story to Mith. He agrees to link up with her. Then Pio has to get a hobbit. Minas Tirith is not exactly crawling with hobbits, but Pio (or more likely Mith?)does have some previous knowledge of Child who takes care of children in the home of one of the minor nobility and gives them some book learning. This hobbit also is knowledgeable about what passes for hobbit history, so that is a plus. Rose is an orphan cousin(SORRY BIRD)who is loosely under Child's care and who works in the same household as she does. Everyone boards the ship.

As we've been given such scanty information, we're out on the Bay looking along the shore or trying to find islands where "real" hobbits might be stranded. Boy, are we surprised when Kali pops up. We find him in a sea cave along the shore. (or do you want to do it in deep water as the RPG assumes? But Kali doesn't have gills.)

Kali is the guardian of the time travel device, only he doesn't know what it is. He gives it to us. It has been in his family for generations. We later discover that it was presented to his people by Ulmo at the time of the first choosing. Their mission has been to keep and guard it and wait for the ship with the single star.

Does this make any sense?

We'd have to edit those sections where we assume the ship "belongs" to us in equal shares. At the end of this adventure one of the Elves will presumably sail her back to Valinor. A ship this magical and powerful just shouldn't "belong" to the likes of us. It's too special.

sharon

[ September 04, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

Mithadan

09-04-2002, 12:34 PM

Very impressive! But did I miss something? Where is Bird?

My only hesitation is the lack of tension through the time Kali is found. Also it places Tuor and Idril in the position of: (1) lying; and (2) effectively consigning Pio to her death. This is uncomfortable. Finally, is there enough time for the crew to develop the degree of dedication and emotion which they feel for one another?

These issues can be worked through. Perhaps Child somehow receives the message about the Hobbits in trouble and enlists the aid of Pio, Mith, Bird, et al. Mith's ship becomes the Lonely Star and Kali has the crystal, etc. No need for Tuor and Idril in the Fourth Age.

Or, we return to the idea of wrongdoing as in the RPG and as you initially proposed. Because Kali has the crystal, the obstacle of 'how did a man/Elf get it' is eliminated.

piosenniel

09-04-2002, 01:26 PM

And who would initially be the one "chosen" by the Valar? I think it would be Pio because of her dual heritage. She fills both sides of the prophecy. (Hey, maybe we should have a prophecy about that.)

I think Idril and Tuor would have been the agents sent to Pio for this purpose. Pio already knew then, and they understood the secret of her heritage. It's quite possible that Pio was even waiting in line at Grey Havens ready to board the boat to you-know-where, and she gets pulled out of line with this strange request. Tuor and Idril tell her simply that some of her hobbit kin have been lost in the Bay of ????. She must rescue them, find out their needs, and try to help them. She is told to pick her own crew. It must include hobbits, Elves, and men, including one hobbit who is of full age. Pio assumes the Elves and men are the practical ones who will carry out the actual mission, and the hobbits are along simply to make the rescued hobbits feel comfortable

I hate to be picky here BUT - this would, in my mind require a major revision in Pio's character. She is not the sort you would find standing in line at the Grey Havens. In fact, the only way she got dragged to the West is by a craven orc spear. Idril and Tuor are sad(Idril, mostly)because Pio tends to play down her elven heritage and refuses the call to go West. There should be no premonition on their part - that would spoil the surprise of Pio's death. I would feel very uncomfortable making such a drastic change to Pio's character from how I meant her to be.

Let's leave out any prophecy for the elf, too. Perhaps Tuor and Idril can simply approach her and Bird with a proposition while they're in Gondolin in the sleazy dive. Given enough potential for travel, thrills, and the possibility of monies to be earned, I think they would go for it. Pio has her inherent fondness for hobbits, and the fact that they were in need of assistance would be an extra incentive.

The problem is why would I and T do this. How would they know about the 'lost' hobbit's? Why would they even care? The Valar?

Let's not make the 'request' for help too delineated from T & I - Pio and Bird are quite adept at picking an appropriate crew; it would be more in keeping with their characters if they did that.

I can see picking up Mith in the tavern and you in the library(yes, Mith should be the one familiar with you). We still need to write something of how Pio might know that Mith is a good pick for the crew. Veritas can be an old friend of Pio's picked for skill in navigation/charts/enjoying wine.

Why would the Valar send I and T? Did they know they had a connection to a hobbit friendly half-elf?

Aack! Now that I think about the whole thing, I don't even like the idea of the Valar having their hand in the beginning of the story quite so much. They always seemed so removed from the concerns of M-E! Can we think of something less planned and contrived by them?

How about we don't bring in I and T either at the beginning? Perhaps Bird and Pio can win the pink slip to the ship in a game of chance. Then, you can hire us because you have heard of some lost hobbit families (that should be a good scene - Child in the sleazy tavern interviewing the owners of the ship she wishes to hire. We work cheap!). Mithadan can have either have an Ulmo prompt about joining us, or he can be sitting nearby when you are discussing your plans and need for us. Or you can attempt to hire him, but his boat is in the shop for repairs so he hooks you up with us and the price for that is his getting to go along with us. I'd just like to see something less mystically oriented at the beginning and more down to earth.

Other questions:

In what Age are we starting the fanfic, btw?
Are we leaving in the ship christening scene?

Sorry to be so rambling - I'm just brainstorming a bit.

Rose Cotton

09-04-2002, 02:49 PM

It's always the hobbits getting rescued. Why not have Pio get lost at sea and the hobbits have to rescue her. No, just kidding. But I don't think I like that reason.
I agree with Mith that we have to build a strong connection between the Lonely Star crew.
I've looked and I don't see Goodchild on the hobbit family tree so I'm asuming that Child made them up. So I'm just going to go ahead and make up my short past. We don't have to refer back to it but I would like to know where my charicter's roots are.
I think that I'm gonna be either 18 or 19.

If any of you would like to advise me on my little back story feel free.

GreatWarg

09-04-2002, 03:33 PM

If you think that Idril and Tuor are setting Pio up for death, then doesn't Boromir basically sign up for his own death? You can't see all ends. And doesn't Frodo still take the Ring, even though he knows he will be pursued by the Enemy, and they will be in lands dangerous and unknown? It takes a hobbit to continue on. And maybe because Poi has hobbit blood in her, then she would still take on the Quest because she knows she has to do it. Sam could've just left Frodo, but it's his friendship that keeps him by Frodo's side, even though he's fearful of what may befall to them. In other sense: Poi was meant to do this. I do not disagree with any prophecy either. After all, how many folk are there in Middle-earth with a hobbit mother and an Elf father? [Meaning no disrespect.]

Child of the 7th Age

09-04-2002, 05:12 PM

Rose - The Goodchild's are real--look at the Gamgee family tree. Our most famous relative, through marriage, was Sam Gamgee. Bell Goodchild was Sam's mother. Bell had 6 children (from 1365-1383) and then must have died sometime after 1383 shire time when Marigold was born. That would be 38 years before the fourth age begins. Robert Foster says the Goodchilds are a hobbit family, probably working class. (Get out there in the fields Rose!! You need to start planting and hoeing. Hope this helps.

Except for Bell, I don't have any more information about the Goodchild line. You might want to have Bell somewhere in your family tree. If you are 18 years old, and this is year 10 of the Fourth Age, you would have been born in 3014 of the Third Age.This is when Gandalf was out looking for Gollum. You were four years old when the Ring quest began, and 5 at the Scouring.

But we need to check with Mith on the date of our adventure.

sharon

[ September 04, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

mark12_30

09-04-2002, 05:19 PM

GreatWarg, But Idril was there when Pio died. She saw her die. Idril's past was Pio's future. --Helen

Child of the 7th Age

09-04-2002, 06:16 PM

Possible Approaches to our Story:

I. PRETTY CERTAIN

A. Time Crystal I think we mainly agree that Kali will be the guardian of the time crystal. This will free up the rest of the story line quite a bit.

B.Mith's Background We want to start off with this, if possible. We will fit in other things after that section either as live action or as stories being told and/or discussed.

II. UNCERTAIN

A. Tuor and Idril

1. T and I may appear as messengers from Valinor at the beginning of the story, OR

2. T and I will appear after we get the time crystal from Kali. Maybe their presence is automatically triggered when an Elf takes up the crystal and tries to make it work. Once again it is T and I's concern for the hobbit peoples (and perhaps their guilt about what happened in Gondolin), along with their Ulmo ties,that generates this. I wonder if Idril will be a bit flummoxed by Pio as the unlikely candidate for the task.

3. Drop T and I altogether. There are several problems with this. They are woven very tightly into the story at a number of points. They gave us the Morgoth memo re Beleriand and revealed certain things to Child and the hobbits regarding the prophecy and the role of the hobbits. (We could probably manage the memo from another source, but the prophecies and role of the hobbits would be much harder.) Also, they are part of the cristening scene. The Idril of Beleriand is not as Elflike or understanding as the one who came to us on the Star. She has obviously grown in compassion and understanding, and that growth is interesting to see.

Any other ideas?

My personal preference would be #1, or #2.

B. Pio's Role and Beginning of Story

1. "Pio, the Unlikely Candidate" ---We know Pio is not a sylphlike creature standing with yearning in her eyes at Grey Havens. But there aren't many hobbit/Elven blends around. Is it possible that she is the unlikely candidate to do this job, even if she doesn't like it, and even if T and I don't like it? I mean instead of coming to Grey Havens, T and I must go meet her in the sleazy tavern of Minas Tirith. Maybe Pio's initial reasons for taking on this task are not the idealistic ones that T and I might want or expect. Hey, Pio is out of money and she needs a good gig (well, maybe not that crude.) I do like the incongruity of this scene.

The Valar have nothing to do with this part. This is an Elvish matter. If I were Idril, I would not feel so good about escaping Gondolin, and having all those hobbits trapped. In this scenario, Idril is trying to make up for some of her own mistakes. (Hey, they didn't have to stick the hobbits by the North gate. Why weren't they closer to the secret tunnel?)

2. We go with something closer to Mith's suggestion and yours. Child finds some allusion to lost hobbits. This might come from one of several sources: something Bilbo said to her, an old lay (Helen could come up with something), a document, a story told by a Stoor family. She goes to Mith and his ship becomes the Star. Or Mith's ship is laid up and Pio wins the Star through a game of dice.

Does our ship need to be Elven? Or not?

3. Mean man uses ship for ill purposes (fake trips to Valinor?? for men and hobbits). We use Mith's ship to take off after him and do battle and win the ship.

Pat -- what general scenario do you feel most confortable with? I still like #1, but don't want to do anything that Pio would feel uncomfortable with Are the others better? Which one?

By the way, Child is too poor to hire Pio's ship, I think. The only one with any money at all would be Mith.

I vote for keeping the christenting.

IS IT YEAR 10 OF THE 4TH AGE??? I need to know this to build Child's background.

piosenniel

09-04-2002, 10:49 PM

Yes to number I A&B.
******************************************
As to II: I think A2 is a good choice.

Once again it is T and I's concern for the hobbit peoples (and perhaps their guilt about what happened in Gondolin), along with their Ulmo ties,that generates this.

Do you also want to give them a tie-in to Ancalimon and perhaps to Nienna, somehow? (We don't need to bring this in at the beginning of the story. Idril can hint at it to Child and the others in her vague, elven way.) There seems to be some background master plan to save Arda going on, which doesn't necessarily include all the Valar - not that the other Valar are opposed to it. They are just indifferent. I don't think Idril would be flummoxed by Pio as the candidate for the task. I think she would relish it - Eru knows she has spent many years trying to improve they wayward elf and set her on the right track.
******************************************
B2 of this section is preferable to me. It makes the entrance into the story after Mith's intro more realistic and saves any interventions from the West until later.

Now that I think about it - no, we don't need the ship to be an elven ship.

What about this idea: Child comes to the tavern to hire the ship to pursue the stories and clues concerning the lost hobbits. She's been told the man, Mithadan, might have a ship available for hire. She pours out her story to him before he has a chance to tell her he is just about to lose his ship due to an acumulation of poor previous voyages and debts of his coming due. Pio and Bird, their ears ever open for a promising deal, overhear what she is proposing, and propose to strike a deal with the hobbit and the man. For a share in the ship and a share in whatever profits this voyage might generate, they would be willing to pay the debt off. Mithadan can keep a share in the ship if he agrees to pay them back the price of his share from the generated profits. Surely Child and Rose can come up with a little money to put into the pot - all with the agreement that the elf and skin changer will eventually be paid the price of the others' shares of the ship. Pio can bring Veritas on board either later, or she can be sitting there with them, eavesdropping.

I think the original name of the ship should not be The Lonely Star - we should rechristen it (probably at a later date if we aren't dragging I & T into the beginning of the story - possibly when we find Kali and resolve to go on the quest). Mithadan can conveniently find the flag of Eärendil in his seaman's trunk, or something like that.(opening the possibility for another reinforcement of his ancestry). Khelek we can pick up at the library in Minas Anor as per the RPG.

What do you think? Might this sort of scenario be doable for us?

I cannot think how we might introduce the dragon . . . unless, she has been a travelling companion picked up by Bird and Pio on a previous adventure (Perhaps Idril sent her as part of the background plan?).
wouldn't that be interesting when the trio plus the wyrm come aboard Mithadan's ship for the first time!
********************************************
I see no reason we can't just make it year 10 of the Fourth Age. Anyone else see problems with this specific date?

Rose Cotton

09-05-2002, 02:26 PM

I don't know about Angara. In the story I see her as a mystereious charicter. And if she is already a well known person then it will take away some of the mystery. I think she should come in some other way. I'm trying to think of how but I'll have to get back to you on that.

I like the idea of Pio being the unlikely hero. We definatly should NOT drop T and I.
They add deph and a bit of Pio's past.
Child's right that we probably wouldn't have alot of money. But maybe while we're traveling around perhaps she could have me doing a few odd jobs to pick up money. I wouldn't mind. It would be something for Rose to to besides following Child around all day.

And thumbs up to 10 year of third age. I will set up my backround tonight and tommorow.

Child of the 7th Age

09-05-2002, 02:49 PM

RE: ARRIVAL OF DRAGON

Rose has a good point about the "mystery" of Angara. I don't think she should "belong" to anyone (even though she crawled out of Mith's sack at the birthday party). Indeed, I don't think she should even have come on anyone's travels. Nor should we have an Elf or Valar or someone else give her to us.

Angara is one of the very unique things about our story (canon or not!), and she deserves an entrance that is in keeping with her personality!

She is very much her own creature. She is kind of like a cat. She doesn't live with us--she lets us live with her! I honestly don't think even Idril or Tuor know a great deal about her and her background.

Tolkien never writes about the "good" dragons, the uncorrupted ones, so it must be a very secret thing. (kind of like free shapechangers)

You see, I am quite sure, we didn't choose her, or bring her along. She chose us.

I wonder what it would be like to be on a small sailing ship bobbing along in the water, and see a dragon soaring overhead. Quite upsetting! I think Child and the other hobbits would have been alarmed. Perhaps even Mithadan and Bird? Maybe it's only Pio who's been alive long enough to recognize her for what she is--an uncorrupted creature--and stop the rest of us from taking pot shots at her. (Not that we didn't try, and not that we would ever succeed in bringing her down.)

I'd love to see Angara alight on the deck and explain to us why she is "taking charge" of this pitiful expedition as she has pity on us poor unfortunates who obviously have so few talents or skills!!

And, boy, she'll never let us live down those pot shots that Mith and Child and Rose took at her! I can well imagine Angara having arguments with Child over this lack of respect.

Mith was worried about the lack of tension in the early plot. Perhaps, Angara should come quite early. This might make for some physical action and suspense and would also help draw the crew together. Nothing like going to battle to build a little camraderie, even if we've managed to pick the wrong target!

[ September 05, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

piosenniel

09-05-2002, 02:55 PM

Good idea about Angara! Let her come early - perhaps once we are put out to sea. Do you think she might point us toward Kali? Or be in the vicinity of Kali and find us then?

Child of the 7th Age

09-05-2002, 03:04 PM

The idea of having her come just before Kali, and there being some unspoken connection with that. Perhaps, we've been searching for a long time with absolutely no luck. Then this crazy dragon shows up, looks down her nose at us, and suggests we search such and such. Voila, Kali emerges. We try to press Angara for more explantion, but she only blows smoke rings at us.

Angara would love it! And, by the way, there shouldn't be any attempt in the story to explain her or how she fits in. She just doesn't. Her background should be very mysterious. I don't even think we should discuss her "kin" as we did in the last story. She is a one and only! (kind of like Beagle's Last Unicorn) And that's really a bit sad too.

piosenniel

09-05-2002, 03:16 PM

Have we moved toward a start to the story after Mith's intro? Are we leaning in some direction?

Will we meet in Minas Anor in IV 10? Then go look for the Lost Hobbits? Angara drops down on our deck then. Next we find Kali who has the time crystal. A visit by Tuor and Idril to help us learn to use it? And then back to Minas Anor to the Great Library to find more @ the lost hobbits and then we're on our way? Is this sort of what we're thinking, very abbreviated, of course?

Mithadan

09-05-2002, 03:22 PM

Love it!

Just add Bird to the passenger list coming south from the Havens, with a bit of introduction and some humor and we're on our way.

Child of the 7th Age

09-05-2002, 11:44 PM

Sounds good. I'm in.

I'm working on Child's background bio. It will probably be next week till I can post it on account of our holidays this weekend.

Rumor has it that one of Child's aunts has mysteriously died and left her with a small inheritance which might possibly help her to invest in the Star. I fear, however, that this sum of money is quite meager, and Child will be unpleasantly surprised to find she doesn't have enough to do what she wants. So I guess she will have to "lower her standards" and go along with the somewhat disreputable Pio and Bird, as well as the slightly more reputable Mithadan. (Parts of Child are positively Victorian, but I guess that is true of much of the Shire.)

Ah, yes, those vexing lost hobbits. Many years ago, when she was bothering her neighbor Bilbo, he told her a strange tale about a group of "lost" hobbits who lived along a seacoast and made their living from the sea. This fired her imagination, and she has wondered about it ever since.

I am not yet certain what Child finds in Minas Tirith, but my guess is that she is searching through ship's logs from the Third Age. One of them may include to brief and fleeting reference to a large storm and a subsequent rescue of something referred to as a "sea hobbit." Unfortunately, this sea hobbit was so injured by the storm that he immediately died. This occurred in the Bay of ____________ where we later find Kali. (Someone please fill in this blank.)

[ September 06, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

Birdland

09-06-2002, 12:04 AM

(Birdie shyly raises hand)

Cape of Andrast? Or maybe Anfalas? Or maybe TolFalas, though it wouldn't be much of a sail.

Rose Cotton

09-06-2002, 04:54 AM

The story line sounds great. I'm all for it.

Child of the 7th Age

09-11-2002, 07:21 AM

TWO QUESTIONS AND A COMMENT:

I. CHILD'S NAME: Child's "proper name is "Camelia Brockhouse". For the purposes of this fanfiction, should she go by "Child", or by "Cami" in everyday situations on the ship? Any preferences? (Either is fine with me.)

Child is obviously a strange name for anyone in Middle-earth (indeed for anyone anywhere!). If "Child" is used, do we need an early reference to explain how she acquired this nickname?

II. KALI'S SPEECH In the early RPG, Kali spoke in "baby talk" with broken sentences and incorrect grammar. This was based on the assumption he knew little Westron. Yet all other sea inhabitants, e.g. Levanto and his folk, had no trouble with Westron or grammar.

Plus Kali has a Westron name--from "Kalimac"! Would his parents give him such a name if they didn't know Westron?

In my opinion, we need to correct this. Perhaps, at the beginning of the story, Kali will use simple words and short sentences, but not "baby talk". He had been living alone, and not used to conversation, or having so many people about. But, for the sake of his self respect, and to present him as a serious character, the baby talk has to go. Would you agree?

III. LAND HOBBITS VRS. SEA HOBBITS This is something I briefly discussed in a few pms, but I wanted to bring it here so everyone could see it. These two groups seem to have had a very different evolution.

From Tolkien's brief allusions to early Third Age hobbits in the Anduin, it is clear they were quite "primitive." With the second choosing, those few kudk who were more inclined to lore and poetry and the music of the sea must have made the choice to become hobbrim. Perhaps, those who had such mystical leanings were also entranced with the idea of helping out in some way at the end of time.

These sea-hobbits will, in effect, become the "keepers of Eru's Mount." It is in the hobbrim line that all the tales of Beleriand and Numenor survive as well as Lindo's poetry, the memory of Nitir, etc. We are given a brief taste of this when Kali is able to sing some songs that no 4th age land-hobbit would know.

It's no wonder that the hobbits of the Shire were such a prosaic lot! Most of the mystics and Elven types, i.e, the "malcontents", would have separated off at the second choosing.

Some of us have seen Frodo as having some kind of Elven leanings, but here's another angle:

Gandalf gazes at Frodo: "Ah, he reminds me of Kali and the other hobbrim. What a throwback he is! No wonder he loves the sea so much.

The history of the hobbits then remains with the "hidden" hobbits. The only exception are the events of the later 3rd age which Bilbo and Frodo wrote down. I think this differentiation will be made clear to Child when she speaks with Ancalimon.

[ September 11, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

Child of the 7th Age

09-11-2002, 11:24 PM

CHILD'S GENERAL BACKGROUND INFORMATION:

This is not meant for word-for-word inclusion in the fanfiction, just to give a sense of who Child is. Some of this data is slightly different than what I wrote in the RPG, so I'll have to do revisions.

My next task is to work on the piece of the story where Child finds the sea-hobbit information and decides to seek out Mithadan to find her lost kin.

For Child's past history, click on the thread which appears at the very end of this post.

By the way, the Brockhouses of Coombe, their friendship with Bilbo and their supposed ties to the Tooks, along with niece Angelica Baggins, appear in Return of the Shadow.

Here's a bit more on Child:

Age: 50
Appearance: brown curls streaked with grey which are held back by a ribbon; short and stocky; brown skin. A typical Harfoot except for the grey eyes which hearken back to that hidden Tookish strain.

Personality: Although very "hobbitlike" in outward appearance and habits, Child's personality has elements which seem strangely "Elvish". See #1-4 below.

1. Polite and with a decent sense of humor, but more reflective than the average kuduk.
2. Very observent of her surroundings except when she's dreaming, which initially occurs far too often.
3. Again, as the story begins, Child lives more in the past than the present. For her, the Star's most important lesson will be that, ironically, she must return to the past in order to learn how to live more fully in the present.
4. Child has occasional dreams and visions in which she outwardly puts little stock. How she feels inwardly is another matter.
5. Quiet with strangers, but a veritable font of words with those whom she knows well.

thread (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=16&t=000083&p=19)

[ September 12, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

Rose Cotton

09-12-2002, 02:02 PM

Child:

My backstory is of little importance but I still want to get it down right. I'm trying aline it with your story but I have a couple of quetions:

1. When do I start following you around?

2. Why?

mark12_30

09-13-2002, 10:01 AM

Child & Pio,

I'm bungling forward on some guesswork; Child, is it okay to have Gamba's journal entries 14-19 stay where they are, or should I move them up to just behind Child & Ancalimon, where entry # 20 is? Your call.

--Helen

Child of the 7th Age

09-13-2002, 10:50 AM

Helen - I would leave 14-19 where they are. I think you want to leave a little "time" between the letters and the actual place where you encounter Levanto. Should you move 20 back with 14-19? What do you think? Is there a special reason it needs to stand alone? (Perhaps something in the later story line?) sharon

mark12_30

09-13-2002, 11:19 AM

I think so. If we decide, no, later on, it can be moved back.

Child of the 7th Age

09-13-2002, 11:41 AM

Sounds fine to me! sharon

p.s. I haven't forgotten those early revisions but probably won't get to them till next Tuesday.

mark12_30

09-13-2002, 12:43 PM

Helen here:
I'll be away this weekend. If the hobbits come on board the star (no idea how fast things will happen) then right after Phura boards, I need a scene reserved. If I'm not here and it's flying by could somebody reserve me a spot? thanks. --Helen

piosenniel

09-13-2002, 01:36 PM

No need to hurry the hobbits on to the boats. We can do that next week. The swan ships will take several days to get here; Pio will have more discussions with Mithadan and Ancalimon to tweak the plan. Pio still needs to decide where to place her key people for the osanwe transfer. Child, Rose, and Bird still need to go after the stray hobbits along the coast.

Child, while you are on your hobbit gathering mission with Rose and Bird, do you want to stumble on some spies of The Giver of Gifts (Sauron) and barely get away without being found out?

HELEN - I PM'd you about going ahead with the intitial meeting of the elders and Levanto - after that he can respond to them, and then return to the ship to tell Pio of his findings. There should still be a few more trips for him to set things up for the final rescue. Also, perhaps the elders could give him info on how often the guards patrol and when they are most present, and how they are armed.

Rose Cotton

09-13-2002, 01:42 PM

Child, while you are on your hobbit gathering mission with Rose and Bird, do you want to stumble on some spies of The Giver of Gifts (Sauron) and barely get away without being found out?

I think we should. We've all been stuck on a boat for a long time. We should put in some excightment.

Child of the 7th Age

09-13-2002, 02:33 PM

Yes, that sounds fine about the spies of Sauron. I have just one problem. I won't be doing much posting tonight (Friday), Saturday (day), or Sunday night, or Monday (day). I won't be hurt if you go ahead without me. I should be on Satrday night and Sunday day. We better bring our weapons just in case! sharon

Child of the 7th Age

09-13-2002, 02:36 PM

Don't know how fast this will go since Helen and I both seem tied up, but please make sure both Gamba and Phura are assigned to come onto the Star if we get that far. Thanks. Sharon

Child of the 7th Age

09-13-2002, 03:35 PM

Isn't the next step after Levanto's initial contact to have Ancalimon tell about the first choosing? I'll try to do that this weekend one way or another. sharon

Child of the 7th Age

09-13-2002, 04:51 PM

Just wanted to let everyone know that Rose is working on her background story and she and I are throwing around ideas. I am afraid we have another orphan! (Sorry Bird!) She wants to be free to choose which way to go at the end of the story. I fill a role similar to that of guardian. When I inherited from my aunt Amalda, I also "inherited" Rose who is her grandaughter.

We will give more details later.

sharon

[ September 13, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

Mithadan

09-14-2002, 11:23 AM

Child, you triple posted on the RPG thread. Some are edited and some are not, so I didn't delete any.

Everyone, we're on the 20th page whixh is where the first thread cut off. Keep this in mind and be prepared to start a fourth and presumably final thread.

piosenniel

09-14-2002, 11:51 AM

What say we focus on a hobbit centered adventure, maybe with Frodo, Sam, Rose,Stacy, Primrose, Child, and the dragon, Angara. Something light and fun!! Anyone got an idea for a lead in from here?

I was looking for some information on our older stories - and found one of my last posts on the original Party thread. Too funny!

We did indeed do a hobbit centered story, but light and fun?! - I think not!! smilies/smile.gif

[ September 14, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ]

GreatWarg

09-14-2002, 11:59 AM

O yes, freeing hobbits from the dominion of a crazed King of Numenor is especially fun. And what's more, we may be able to hack down a few of the accursed guards! And I'm thinking Khelek and Veritas get to stand by calmly yet again?

No, but I'm thinking, Sauron is still on the island as the fleet leaves, presumbly westwards. Won't he get news of our save and try to hinder us? I don't think he would want anyone to get on Numenor without a fight. And another thing: Elendil flees eastward as Numenor is engulfed. Will we be doing a time-shift as soon as the hobbits are onboard, or will we face the onslaught of storm in the Second Age?

piosenniel

09-14-2002, 12:47 PM

GREAT WARG

Pio will soon be making boat assignments. Where would you like to be placed?

(Note the whole rescue operation will not take place until probably next Tuesday when Child can be back with us - not to mention the ships and the Teleri have not arrived as yet, and Levanto has several more trips to make to the caves.)

There will be 20 elven ships plus the Star. the Star will have to be positioned in the southern bay into which the River Siril drains. Veritas will have to be on that ship with the crystal. Angara will also probably stay there.

The 20 Telerin ships will go quickly upriver to receive the hobbits. Pio, Child, and Rose will assuredly be on the lead swan ship. Anacalimon will be asked to be further down the line, if not stay on the Star. He should not engage the 'enemy' in physical combat at this time.

I'm not sure which ship Mithadan wants to be on.

Pio needs to have the strong osanwe links she has already forged when she tried her previous boat lifting experience. They will assist her in this larger operation, especially if it has to be done quickly and in the midst of some battle encounter.

As to Sauron- in 'The Akallabêth'(the Sil), he is on the island until the island is submerged:

For Sauron himself was filled with great fear at the wrath of the Valar, and the doom that Eru laid upon the sea and land. It was greater far than aught he had looked for, hoping only for the death of the Númenoreans and the defeat of their proud king . . . even as he laughed at his own thought, thinking what he would do now in the world, being rid of the Edain forever, he was taken in the midst of his mirth, and his seat and his temple fell into the abyss.

This is, of course, when his spirit rises out of the deep and passes as a shadow and black wind over the sea to Mordor.

Yes, once the hobbits are on board, we will shift immediately back to the safety of the Fourth Age, get the ailing hobbits back to a semblance of health, and then proceed on to the last of our story - where the hobbits are offered the choice of becoming hobbrim or staying hobbits (As I recall this will be on the now isolated small island which was formerly the top of Meneltarma.)Then eventually we will take the hobbits back to the early Third Age where they will at some time migrate back to the Shire. (I am a little unclear how this will all work out - I'm a one crisis at a time sort of person. But since all our other crises have worked themselves out, I have great faith that this one will,too!) smilies/smile.gif

[ September 14, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ]

Mithadan

09-14-2002, 02:44 PM

I think that Mith will accompany the crew to Numenor. I will also not be posting much until Tuesday.

GreatWarg

09-14-2002, 03:31 PM

Alright then. It will be a long, uneventful wait for them on the Star, however. The storyline will work itself out (hopefully). But if they are to be led to the region of the Shire, then they will need someone who knows where it is... and that would have to be one of the hobbits that are with us... oh Child, are you really planning to leave us? Well, some hobbit's going to have to do this task. And here I am worrying myself! Let our fate decide our paths!

Rose Cotton

09-14-2002, 05:31 PM

CHILD'S NOT GOING ANYWHERE WITHOUT ME!
*crosses arms and puts on a stubborn look*

Child of the 7th Age

09-14-2002, 05:45 PM

Regarding stumbling onto spies--Might it be possible to assume that Sauron would have had his minions down watching the shoreline to see if any Elven ships would appear through the back door--the eastern side of the island. If so, he would have attempted to "hijack" these Elven ships.

When the spies see the small boats accompanied by two hobbits in the water, they would be very curious since all hobbits were thought to be in prison. They would come down to take a look, and see the hobbrim actually speaking with us. Until that time, the hobbrim were taken as "animals", non-sentient beings, by other people in Numenor whenever they were briefly glimpsed (even those glimpses were rare.)

Seeing the hobbrim speak, the spies would then know they were sentient beings. We would have to kill them all. Otherwise, they would take the news of the hobbrim back to Sauron. Plus, they'd be trying to grab Rose, and Daisy, and Child to haul them away to prison. Hopefully, they will fail as we, together with the hobrim , will kill them.

Dos this sound ok? How many baddies can we kill? Any suggestions.

About the post, I'll check. Every time I tried to send it though I got one of those website not available notices (504?). I finally copied it elsewhere and got out of the site. I checked back and saw two posted, but maybe there were more. (I did erase 1) sharon

Birdland

09-14-2002, 06:13 PM

What about Angara and me? Am I gonna be a dragon, or a dolphin? Or should I turn into a Neekerbreeker and try to stay out from underfoot? smilies/biggrin.gif

piosenniel

09-14-2002, 06:44 PM

I thought that Sauron did not know about either the hobbits or the hobbrim? Is that incorrect?

I should think that one or two spies could be taken care of by the intrepid hobbrim finders. Remember to hide the bodies!

(You realize, of course, that 'Mithadan' may have a stroke when you leave the ship on your adventure - and when you tell him about killing the spies, I'll have to use the Automatic External Defibrillator on him!)

BIRD - shouldn't you probably be in human form when you go with Child on the hobbrim mission, then you can change into some other form as needed. Angara really shouldn't go - she is supposed to also be kept hidden.

Birdland

09-14-2002, 08:00 PM

Oh, OK. I can do that.

Hey, how come Mith didn't give me a sword? (Bird steps on brick sidewalk and falls flat on her face.)

GreatWarg

09-14-2002, 08:03 PM

But why would the King of Numenor keep the hobbits imprisoned, if it weren't for Sauron? Also, Child touched on the point I was making: if he did know, he would be guarding the east side. Though we would perhaps have to create an explanation for why he did not just kill the hobbits.

I don't mind killing and fighting. I don't mind if we kill heaps of Sauron's guards. Let them pay for their cruelty! Er - sorry - instinctual thing. But the problem is, we cannot spare much time. We will either have to hit and run, or kill all of the guards there first. But then we would have to make sure messages weren't sent to Sauron first, or that no guards slipped away. It will make it definitely harder to do a time-shift so soon, or else we will face the perilous wrath of the Lords of the Sea.

Edit: Bird: I think we can see why he did not give you one. But you are dangerous enough without it, as a skin-changer. Change into a dragon, and you'll send the guards crying for mercy.

[ September 14, 2002: Message edited by: GreatWarg ]

mark12_30

09-14-2002, 08:31 PM

(Somebody asked about getting the hobbits back to the Shire, did I hear? Not our problem. We need to get them to the banks of the Anduin, where they will dwell anonymously and harmlessly for a while. (Ancestors also of Smeagol, Deagol...) When The Necromancer starts making Mirkwood a Nasty place, (Third Age 1150 plus or minus a century or so) they will migrate over the Misty Mountains down the Hoarwell & Bruinien, and thence eventually westward to Bree and The Shire.)

piosenniel

09-14-2002, 08:34 PM

I don't think Sauron gave a rip about the island. He was so focused on bringing down the mighty Edain and their King. He would have urged all the ships join in the trip West.

What would he have mustered for his own navy - several old fishing vessels? I can see him having spies about, but not ships and soldiery.

I thought we covered why Ar-Pharazon captured the hobbits (or was that just in our emails?) and we haven't worked that into the actual story as yet. Anyone know?

We are planning a hit and run on the caves - Levanto will get the hobbits ready to meet us as soon as we have landed and killed the guards (whose schedules, numbers, armaments we should know by then from his meetings with the elders). Once the hobbits are loaded, and the guards dispatched, we are immediately transporting to the Second Age, one year later than the Fall of the Isle. We will be in position then to deposit the hobbits on the small isle that is now Meneltarma, and I'm thinking (correct me if I'm wrong) that then the choosing will occur then for those hobbits who want to become hobbrim (did I get that right? Or is the choosing just before we transport them back to the Third Age - which will include the choosing, then, that Child and Rose have to do).

Bird - see Pio, she will give you a sword if you wish - she remembers how you 'loved' wielding one against the demon lover! smilies/smile.gif

Child of the 7th Age

09-14-2002, 11:58 PM

Pio -- I don't care when the second choosing is, but I think there should only be one. This is the point where all decisions are made---sort of a sorting out of the kin. Hobbits to the left who want to be hobbrim. Hobbits to the right who want 3rd century Anduin. And any hobbit from the Star who wants to return to the 4th age, just drop out of line!

I have a feeling that the Star hobbits are all going bye, bye. Kali is obvious, and Child. Rose will probably want to come with me. We discussed this in her background info, and how she'd have to have no family left in order to make that choice. I am her guardian. Daisy, we originally saw Daisy as a hobbrim. Any second thoughts?

Oh, yeah, I asked Helen to free up a hobbit or two for adoption when I go to the Third Age. But she's being very industrious, and there seem to be plenty to pick from! smilies/wink.gif

I do think some things were left out of the thread, but were in our pms. The main thing was that Ar-pharazon acted on his own because he had a copy of Morgoth's memo. He kept all this secret from Sauron. We did not want the hobbits brought to Sauron's attention in any significant way. Great Warg sent me a pm asking about this.

Pio -- How should we get that info to the reader? Could it come out in the tactical discussions you're having with Mith, or with one of the other Elves? I don't think this is something Child would be terribly aware of--Pio would be more likely. Please advise.

Bird-- I'm looking forward to our little adventure. Couldn't you just incinerate the bodies?? How many do we get to knock off? Child is practicing very hard with her weapons.

sharon

sharon

mark12_30

09-15-2002, 03:53 AM

Child,
FYI, I'm going to un-sacrifice "Phura's Azra" 's parents (how DO they tell the nieces from the aunts?) because I suddenly remembered I need them after all for the Second Choosing scene. I'll bump off Esta's parents instead-- now I gotta make more names up for her siblings. Sheesh.

--Helen

mark12_30

09-15-2002, 04:30 AM

Hobbrim don't have gills? (panic) I thought they did. How did Kali stay underwater so long in Sunken Gondolin then? And why would Ulmo need to do anything special to them? I thought they were amphibious.

Won't the violence of the flood be enough to kill them in their waterside caves? They wuold still need rescue even if they did have gills. (?)

Rose Cotton

09-15-2002, 05:51 AM

I thought Hobbrim could just hold thier breath really long.

As for killing spys, I'm sure Rose is gonna be very clumbsy. It sounds like fun though.

piosenniel

09-15-2002, 12:37 PM

Helen

The mer-people don't have gills, either. I don't think we have to get too scientific about this. smilies/smile.gif

Child of the 7th Age

09-15-2002, 12:40 PM

Helen - regarding orphans, aunts, etc.--whatever you think will work.

To all:I have added two sentences to Ancalimon's story. This indicates Sauron does not understand he hobbits' importance and that Ar-pharazon learned of this by discovering Morgoth's ancient command. sharon

piosenniel

09-15-2002, 12:43 PM

Child

About Ar-Pharazôn's hiding of the hobbits - Pio can share that info with Mithadan when they talk about their concerns over Sauron and if they must prepare to defend against him.

How should we get that info to the reader? Could it come out in the tactical discussions you're having with Mith, or with one of the other Elves? I don't think this is something Child would be terribly aware of--Pio would be more likely

GreatWarg

09-15-2002, 12:46 PM

Drop the science, Tolkien never really said anything about the anatomy of Elves, Men, and hobbits. Therefore we do not really need to say anything about mer-men, hobbrim, and what-naught. So long as we don't make any false conclusions.

Child - Okay, thanks for clarifying that. I wasn't all too sure about these things.

Rose - Maybe you can use Kettle of Fish to fight? I'm sure they won't mind! smilies/wink.gif

Pio - Okay, so long as the reader has an idea of what Ar-Pharazon was thinking. It wouldn't do to show only one side of the story.

Edit: Child - We accidentaly poted our messages at the same time. I altered my message so that they fit together. Perhaps it can be the same situation in two different points of view?

[ September 15, 2002: Message edited by: GreatWarg ]

Birdland

09-15-2002, 01:05 PM

Hobbrim and Mer-Men absorb oxygen from the water through their skin.

I, Ulmo, have spoken.

Child of the 7th Age

09-15-2002, 01:29 PM

Thank you Ulmo. I will alter the post (Ancalimon's story) to say that the hobbrim can't stay or they will get flattened! that shuld cover it. Nobody wants flat hobbrim. That will be Tuesday though

Great Warg--- I changed mine too. I'll have a look and see if anything needs more changing.

GreatWarg -- I checked it out. LOL. We double posted and then double edited! My main concern was to go talk with Mith. Let's leave them as is. We can always blend them together in the fanfiction. I want to make certain Mith knows I'm banging on his door. sharon

[ September 15, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

Rose Cotton

09-15-2002, 02:38 PM

Hobbrim and Mer-Men absorb oxygen from the water through their skin.
I, Ulmo, have spoken.

So Hobbrim are really a cross between a Hobbit and a frog? smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/wink.gif

Birdland

09-15-2002, 02:59 PM

That's right. Originally they were called Hopprims.

Bêthberry

09-15-2002, 03:09 PM

So funny I'm gonna croak!*groan* I get dizzy just from reading your discush. Will you be needing another thread? smilies/smile.gif

Bethberry

GreatWarg

09-15-2002, 03:13 PM

DOUBLE EDITED?! O boy, the irony of the world. Okay, we'll let Mith edit it as he pleases.

And, thank you, Ulmo, for that simple explanation! Who would've known they were amphibious?

Child of the 7th Age

09-15-2002, 03:14 PM

Hopprims! Now, Children, behave. This is your teacher telling you to SETTLE DOWN!!!!

(Hey, does anyone know how long a frog can stay under water??? Just curious.)

smilies/biggrin.gif Child, the only sane one in the group!

Child of the 7th Age

09-15-2002, 03:17 PM

GREAT WARG----

We did it again. We double posted, although thankfully it doesn't matter here. (Just to reassure you, I'm not editing this post!)

sharon

piosenniel

09-15-2002, 03:19 PM

Pray tell - which of you brave souls is going to announce to Pio and Mithadan, especially, that you are bound for the coast of Númenor to pick up stray hobbrim.

Or is the consensus that you all will be skulking off in the dead of night.

Leave the poor elf with the soon to be fuming Man!!!

Really, though, I suppose this will happen Tuesday or Wedenesday, am I correct?

Child of the 7th Age

09-15-2002, 03:20 PM

OK -- "serious" questions. This was listed way back at the end of thread one and no one answered.

In the fanfiction, should Child go by Child or Cami (from Camelia Goodchilde)

also in the fanfiction, shouldn't we change Kali's "baby talk" that we used early in the story---none of the other sea creatures have trouble speaking Westron?

piosenniel

09-15-2002, 04:16 PM

I think we should edit your name to Cami.

And yes, let's change the way Kali talks. I had trouble doing the baby-talk, so I think many of my exchanges with him use language just as the rest of us speak.

Birdland

09-15-2002, 04:40 PM

Yes to Cami.

Yes to losing "baby talk". (Though it wasn't "baby-talk", it was "Pukel-Men talk"!)

Frogs can stay submerged indefinitely, but must come on land to eat.

Any other questions?

piosenniel

09-15-2002, 04:42 PM

Bird

Yes, from your last post - the heart to heart with Rose - are you up at sometime for another venture out with the Star? Probably Fourth Age, since that will be where we end up, will it not, at least in this story?

[ September 15, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ]

GreatWarg

09-15-2002, 07:05 PM

Wow, we have some talent Child! We got talent, yes we do, we got talent, how bout you? O no... I think staying up till 2 doing essays for english has done things to my mind...

Yes to Cami, no to Pukel/baby talk. Well Pio, if you want Khelek to come, go ahead. If you think it'd just make Mithadan even more fuming then... RUN!

mark12_30

09-15-2002, 07:34 PM

Ok, now that I've read your posts, I guess that I don't really care whether the hobbrim have gills or absorb oxygen thru their skin or whatever-- what I care about is that they can go DEEP. Birdland, your Sunken Gondolin was Nice and deep, right? Way down? Not just twenty feet below the surface? Deep. They can stay under for as long as they need/ want?

DIVE, DIVE, hobbrim! They can, right? Plumbing immense depths? Please.

Birdland

09-15-2002, 07:38 PM

I see hobbrim as being able to go as deep as they like, though I can't see them preferring the dark, deep depths where all the fish have BIG eyes and SHARP, POINTY TEETH!

Pio - Bring it on!

[ September 15, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

mark12_30

09-16-2002, 06:15 AM

OK, Bird, I'll take that happily. You'll see why later. :-D

[ September 16, 2002: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

Mithadan

09-17-2002, 08:37 AM

I'm closing the ongoing Lonely Star thread and opening a new one. We're close to the size limit for threads and I don't want anyone to accidently lose a post. Look for The Lonely Star -- Chapter 4.

Also I've added a post by editing Child's "knocking on the door of Mithadan's cabin" post. You may want to read it before proceeding to the new thread.

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: Mithadan ]

Mithadan

09-17-2002, 05:38 PM

Pio, check your private messages.

piosenniel

09-17-2002, 05:45 PM

Mithadan check yours - I just returned home! I say we delete!

Mithadan

09-17-2002, 06:37 PM

Apologies to all for rearranging the posts on Lonely Star -- Ch.4. Piosenniel and Mithadan had their timing off, requiring some things to be moved around. smilies/evil.gif

GreatWarg

09-17-2002, 06:38 PM

Mithadan - It's about time! I was expecting that to come up somewhere...

Everyone - So the rescue's scheduled for tomorrow or tonight?

Child of the 7th Age

09-17-2002, 06:43 PM

Great Warg -- The hobbits still have to go off on their rescue of the hobbrim. Plus, it takes 20 days or so for those Elven ships to arrive.

Ahh, ain't love great! No one can accuse our RPG of "lacking in love." We had one relationship which was tragically split apart (Child and Maura) and another which looks like its going on the right track! I hope they plan a spring wedding!

sharon

piosenniel

09-17-2002, 06:55 PM

Story timeline - Levanto is just going to do the second meeting with the Elders - I will probably write that tonight.

So, we are about 4 days into our 20 day wait for the Teleri.

I believe we time shifted to the day after midsummer's day (Loënde) in Númenor which gave us a remaining 38 days before the Numenorean ships reach the West and the world is broken.

So, 16 days til the swan ships arrive
34 days til the Island is sunk!

So, you hobbits and hobbrim and the kindly shapechanger had better load up the boats and go looking for the lost kin.

Child, are you telling Pio you're leaving? or Mithadan?

Hmmmmm! We've only had one side of the kiss so far - don't plan the wedding yet! smilies/wink.gif

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ]

GreatWarg

09-17-2002, 07:01 PM

O well, go ahead, start planning! Actually, maybe to honour the hobbits, how about the day they are liberated from Numenor? Which would be... what's the season right now? Oi, you lose track of seasons so easily when you time-shift...

piosenniel

09-17-2002, 07:09 PM

It is just after Midsummer Day at the present in the story. We will time shift ahead a year after we rescue the hobbits, so it will still be summer when we get them to Meneltarma.

And if there is a wedding, there should be some lovely poetry in honor of it - is Khelek game to do this for a fellow elf?

Child of the 7th Age

09-17-2002, 08:32 PM

Pio --

Hey, it's not just me. I fear you will be returning to the 4th age in a ship which is curiously devoid of hobbits! Remember, Gandalf told all the hobbits we could chose. Some will chose column A (hobrim) and some will choose column B (land hobbits).

Perhaps, Cami and the other hobbits will "tell" after Pio announces her engagement?

sharon

Bêthberry

09-17-2002, 08:37 PM

A quick note to Mark12_30, who I think is reading this thread now. I'll delete this later.

I sent you a PM. Did you receive it? I have some stuff to send you.

Bethberry

piosenniel

09-17-2002, 09:20 PM

Whoa! Hold it a sec! Pio has not been proposed to as yet. Mithadan the Cautious could get cold feet you know! smilies/wink.gif

And we do have a battle coming up - the elf could bite the dust again if she doesn't remember her mithril shirt this time!!!!

GreatWarg

09-17-2002, 09:30 PM

Hmmm... a poem. Yes, I could do that. After all, I got plenty of practice when I was bored during the summer. Just don't mind if it mentions the Sea too much, okay? You know how Khelek is with the Sea and the West. smilies/wink.gif

Strangely devoid of hobbits?! You're all planning to leave us?! Oh my... this will be a sad trip back...

Child of the 7th Age

09-17-2002, 10:30 PM

Pio -- I thought you meant leaving to go to the Third Age. LOL. You mean leaving for the hobbrim rescue. Mistress Bird is supposed to lead that rescue, but I guess I get to do the "dirty work" again of telling Pio and/or Mith. Hopefully, they'll be in such a good mood, they'll never hear what I'm saying. Cami

Birdland

09-17-2002, 11:11 PM

Awwwwwwwww! Birdie loves a love story. You two are the cutest couple on Middle-earth! What am I saying? you're Half-Elf and Smidgin-O'-Elf. Ain't like Eru exactly hit y'all with the ugly stick. (Birdie wonders what kind of wedding gift she can by with twelve silver pennies. smilies/biggrin.gif )

But then, there's poor Birdie; always a bridesmaid, never a bride, and all her friends going off the make "choices" and get hitched. (Sigh) Maybe she'll join a Book Club and get a cat.

Mithadan

09-17-2002, 11:25 PM

Bird, you are priceless! I haven't laughed like that for a while! And before we all get carried away, may I remind you that: 1. it was only a kiss; 2. Pio hasn't hit Mith upside the head yet; 3. there's still Sauron and a number of Numenoreans to deal with; 4. there's the issues of the age difference (several thousand years) and distance (last I heard, Pio wants to live in the West, whereas Osse threatened to skewer me if I came that way again) to deal with. The smart money is on one or the other beating a hasty retreat.

Child of the 7th Age

09-17-2002, 11:29 PM

Ah, but Mithadan, this is Middle-earth. Love conquors all -- remember Beren and Luthien. I think the odds are better than 50/50. sharon

P.S. This was my post #1,000. Such a romantic way to go over the top!

[ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

mark12_30

09-17-2002, 11:38 PM

There can only be three man-elf unions, Proffessor Tolkien said so. Therefore, either this will blow over rapidly, or, one will die off, or -- GASP-- we will depart the Canon-Friendly road. (Nay, roared Mithadan, it cannot be so!)

And anyway, you guys are all a bunch of over-romanticized night-owls. GO TO SLEEP. And so, meanwhile, shall I. Who the heck cares about a stupid transcript (or new job) anyway.

mark12_30

09-17-2002, 11:50 PM

Oh, the heartbreaking irony. Mithadan singing Levanto's song. (choke)
This over-romanticized night owl is going to have a hard time sleeping after that. Drat you, Mith. You .. you... you... (WAUGH sob )

smilies/biggrin.gif

Tem and Tocca would be so proud.

[ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

Birdland

09-17-2002, 11:54 PM

You two lovebirds could always take out a lease-with-option on a nice seaside condo on Tol Eressëa. That would solve THAT problem. (Although whose family you'll spend time with on holidays might be a issue.)

[ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

Birdland

09-17-2002, 11:59 PM

Child! - (Birdie circles fist in the air) Whoop-Whoop-Whoop!

Bethberry - I'm "second shift". I've got another hour before my "day" winds down. smilies/biggrin.gif

[ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

Mithadan

09-18-2002, 12:01 AM

Mark 12_30, though JRRT mentions 3 unions, he also adverts to a fourth in the house of Dol Amroth (Mithrellas was her name). BTW, I agree on one thing, poor Levanto. Remind me to not let him watch my back.

Bird, I almost choked on your last post.

Oh, and I hadn't read the follow ups to "the kiss" before I made my last post on this thread. OK, so it wasn't "just a kiss". It was a KISS.

piosenniel

09-18-2002, 12:41 AM

Bird

Pio has sent Levanto to also scout along the coast of Hyarrostar re: the hobbrim dwellings. He should be bringing back some info early NEXT a.m. to the Star.

In her heart, Birdie said good-bye to her laughing, reckless friend, and wished her happiness until the end of her days.

*sniff! You're abandoning me?!

Is this the no 'cake and eat it too' policy?!

[ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ]

Birdland

09-18-2002, 01:04 AM

Yeah, Mith's really gonna want Birdie going along for the honeymoon.

"Gee, Honey: I'd really like to go for a moonlight cruise through Ithilien, but Birdie and me were gonna go down to the First Circle and see if we could pick up some drunk Corsairs, just like the old days!"

[ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

piosenniel

09-18-2002, 02:15 AM

What shall we do with a drunken sailor?
What shall we do with a drunken sailor?
What shall we do with a drunken sailor,
Ear-ly in the morning!!!!!

You should have seen Mandos blanch when I sang him that one!! smilies/smile.gif

Rose Cotton

09-18-2002, 05:23 AM

Well, it didn't take long for everyone to know about it. Next time DON'T kiss in front of a hobbit. LOL!

But really, who didn't see it coming. LOL!

You can't kiss like that and not go the whole way.

MITH- I think you could go to the west with Pio if she stood up for you.

Bêthberry

09-18-2002, 06:30 AM

Dear Rose,

You can't kiss like that and not go the whole way.

Hmm. I take it you have yet to experience being a parent inter--er, wakened in the middle of the night by a child. smilies/wink.gif

Bethberry

PS. Sorry for intruding. I couldn't resist. No, actually, I didn't want to resist.
smilies/biggrin.gif

[ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: Bethberry ]

GreatWarg

09-18-2002, 05:46 PM

Hear hear, Mithadan and Pio! Besides, you have Gandalf, Veritas, and Khelek to vouch for you! Tol Eressea, here we come!

And are Elves really that... preppy in the morning? Or is it just the way Pio described it that makes me laugh? Hard to imagine Elrond sweeping into the dining room, exclaiming what a lovely morning it is, and then having utter silence and everyone staring at you.

piosenniel

09-18-2002, 06:13 PM

Well, Khelek did seem a bit overcome with the beauty of the morning - and so entranced by it, nothing else filtered in to him!!

LOL! Preppy! Khelek in Tommy Hilfiger!

BTW - where are you bound once the quest is over - are you going West?

[ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ]

GreatWarg

09-18-2002, 06:34 PM

Well, what do you expect him to do? Most of his friends and kin are most likely in the West by now. Besides, staying in Middle-earth would seem like impossible to him after this. Otherwise he'd spend every single freakin minute in the Shire or the Havens. If it isn't the West, then's it's off to the Shire! No way does he want to spend another night in Thranduil's realm!

Child of the 7th Age

09-18-2002, 11:39 PM

You know --we may just have a ghost ship coming back from the Third Age. If all the Elven kind head West (and Mith gets a ticket to Aman for his brave deeds), and the hobbits go their way, including Gandalf to the Third Age, and I manage to get Bird grandfathered in as a "hobbit-friend", the ship will be floating about Middle-earth with no one on it. How spooky!! sharon

piosenniel

09-19-2002, 10:02 AM

Ghost ship! I think not!

Pio has an awakened thirst for life on the tumultuous seas of Arda. I don't think she'll be going straight back to the West - barring, of course, another spear to the back!

GreatWarg

09-19-2002, 05:50 PM

Life on the Sea... hey, that doesn't sound so bad. Except when you're in a foul mood, there's really no place you can go for privacy unless you lock yourself into your own cabin, or something!

If Angara's that mad, I do not want to know how mad Levanto's going to be. Or maybe he might understand and only push Mithadan into the Sea. Or just slightly disappointed.

And where is Veritas' player? Gone quite a long time, or still playing catch-up.

Rose Cotton

09-20-2002, 05:33 AM

I can't wait for this to be a fanfiction. I think it's gonna be the best one there ever was. I was sitting here reading the story and was completely moved. smilies/smile.gif

Bêthberry

09-20-2002, 06:31 AM

Somewhere you will have to archive or set aside the discussion thread to provide some cleanings for future scholars. Certainly some of the funniest interactions are here. Birdie, along with the Book Club and the cat, you can take up gardening. smilies/wink.gif

Bb

piosenniel

09-20-2002, 01:42 PM

Levanto is more gracious than the moth-eaten wyrm!!!! He has stepped aside.

As to life on the sea, it's not so confining if you'll learn to swim. As I recall, the oarni quite adored Khelek! smilies/wink.gif

piosenniel

09-20-2002, 04:24 PM

Some thoughts on where the story is going:

First, I believe we have resolved the romantic angst occuring between the Elf and the Man. So we can now focus on the main part of the story with them as an accepted 'couple' now. (There is, of course, the question of the dragon and her attitude for Pio to deal with!) smilies/wink.gif

I don't know how much we can draw Sauron into this story. We cannot have his ships running about looking for dragons along the coast - especially any time near the approach of the Telerin fleet. I can't see the Teleri wanting a pitched battle with Sauron's fleet. How would that happen anyway without Him knowing then exactly where we were and what was planned. A single report of 20 Elven ships would bring his full force upon us. These are 'spy' ships you speak of and would certainly be in direct contact with Sauron.

I don't think he has his attention on Eru's mount, does he? At least not the caves beneath it. His center of worship is at the top of the mountain, isn't it?

Ancalimon, it seems to me, must not tip his hand to Sauron in any way. Any knowledge of the presence of another maia would surely put Sauron's suspicions into overdrive.

If we do decide to do something along these lines - it should be done very carefully, otherwise our rescue plans will seem completely implausible and impossible.

What do you think?

GreatWarg

09-20-2002, 05:33 PM

* Khelek winces *

No, I don't think he'd want to have another brush with them again...

And as for Sauron, our little chess piece, a fleet of Teleri ships wouldn't be loaded for battle. If Sauron were aware, his mighty 'navy' would crush them. I suppose Mithadan's post clears that a bit, but as for Sauron not noticing... that would be quite hard. No Elf is supposed to be around Numenor at this time, and if he suddenly senses Elves around, he'd be quite suspicious. Should we be waiting on shore, perhaps? Any spy ships would either have to go the long way around or go through us. The long way may take quite a while and may just give us enough time to time-shift ere the Wrath of the Valar engulfs Numenor.

Let's get some flamethrowers! Sorry, that came out of nowhere...

GW,
The Seventh Age Warg

Child of the 7th Age

09-20-2002, 07:32 PM

I've included a copy of the memo which I sent to Pio concerning the plot. As I said below, I may be the only one with these concerns. But I do feel that the suspense lacks a sharp edge at this point. We seem to know all the pieces in the puzzle, and we're just waiting for them to play out.

I can see the problem about the Elven ships. But how far out from Numenor are we, and how far out would the spy ships go searching for a single dragon? Wouldn't they more likely stay closer to shore? Indeed, they would probably be searching on land as well? How extensive were the sources available to Sauron at this point, with the fleet itself gone?

As I said below, I will edit out Sauron's awareness and leave the dragon's fall in as a backlash to push the dragon into the sea if people think this is best.

I guess I want more of a sense of suspense than we have now--the feeling that gee, we may make it or we may not. We've dotted every "i" and crossed every "t". We planned every maneuver to perfection.And I guess I'm feeling that nothing new or different is going to happen, so we're probably going to win. It's likely for example that we outnumber the tomb guards. (No one said there were hoards of them!)

Sauron can't come directly against us because of the hobbits, but Angara is a loose card. If this won't work, is there another way to get it i.e. the sense of going up against something, of something threatening us? Or perhaps everyone else thinks we should stick strictly with the planned rescue and fighting the tomb guards? In which case I should definitely edit.
_____________________________________________

Pio---If you feel Sauron's awareness of Angara won't work, I will delete (probably on Monday) and leave only the bit about the backlash throwing the dragon into the drink. But please read this first, and tell me what you think.

I do wonder if we are not too "flat" and predictable going into the rescue. There's no sense of having a real enemy coming against us except for the angst in our own heads. In most stories, you have some sense of two sides preparing for a contest. Since the hobbits and our enemy have been so hidden, we don't have that tension in the story. We've also had relatively little prior physical combat in the story to fuel this sense of tension.

If we're coming with a considerable fleet of Elven ships, would the guards at the tombs realistically pose a major threat? After all, Turo and Idril made it in to rescue the Stoors with only one vessel. There's no sense in the story of the tomb guards or anyone else making special preparations against us. I guess I feel there should be more of a sense of conflict, us coming against someone who's also consciously coming against us, rather than simply making a plan and carrying it out, and killing a large number of guards along the way.

Perhaps I'm wrong in this. But if Sauron's attention is not on Eru's mount, as you suggested in the memo, then this is even more the case.---no strong sense that we're going up against a real force of evil who is aware of us and is trying to eliminate us.

If there were 2-3 spy ships, we would encounter them in the rescue and immediately take them out. Conceivably, they could even be encountered on our way out of the tombs as we flee. Sauron would have no idea where along the coast the dragon would be--his forces would be spread out. As far as the hobbrim rescue, there's no problem returning to the ship without Sauron knowing. The storm has given us our protection. We knock out one ship and then come back to the Star immediately. So the only time Sauron would know anything would be the final encounter with the 2-3 spy ships at the actual rescue. And then it's too late.

If this won't work, is there another way to inject more of a sense of a "real" enemy in the story? The forces of evil are so distant that I'm having trouble sensing them. Perhaps I am the only one who feels this way? In that case, we should probably drop it and go as originally planned..

Let me know, and I'll edit accordingly, but probably not till Monday.

sharon.

[ September 20, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

Rose Cotton

09-20-2002, 08:04 PM

http://www.plauder-smilies.de/partytime.gif
http://www.plauder-smilies.de/party/party.gif
http://www.plauder-smilies.de/party/luxhello.gif

Yay!! Pio and Mith are staying together!!
*sniff* I love happy endings *sniff* They make me cry.... smilies/biggrin.gif

Anyway...... smilies/rolleyes.gif

We have to have some kind of an enemy to deal with and one that will pose some kind of a threat without interfereing with Tolkien's original story. We need conflict in these last parts because we're working up to a climax. If the rescue goes smoothly and totally acording to plan then the end of the story won't seem suspencefull at all and very predictable.

As long as noone goes overboard I think taking some chances in the plot wouldn't hurt.

mark12_30

09-20-2002, 08:07 PM

How about the rescue does go off flawlessly-- but with an odd sense of foreboding-- and then as we are regathering & getting ready for The Jump, out comes Sauron's fleet. We can't jump to hypertime until we have everybody back on board, and (list of people) are missing. I've got a couple candidates for "missing", other folks can come swimming too.

We skirmish a couple of Sauron's lead ships; fortunately he's back in the rearguard (or whatever.)

THen the jump to hypertime also becomes difficult, because of Sauron's oppressive presence, it's hard for Pio to pull everybody together. The fleet scatters through time, and only half of them make it to (the targetted time.) We take another week finding lost ships with the crystal. (or something.) We lose a few: a few ships, a few hobbits, a few elves.

piosenniel

09-20-2002, 09:46 PM

One of my objections to this, which I'm sure if I thought about it longer I could get around it, is that I just don't feel the Teleri have signed on for a major battle. Just doesn't feel right to me. That is why the planning has been so careful (at least by Pio who feels responsible for having signed them on), so as to avoid this possibility as much as we can.

If we do decide to go this route, then give me a little time to figure out how to give them the advantage, and arm the freakin' elves to the teeth.

GreatWarg

09-20-2002, 09:56 PM

Like I said, it's most likely Telerin ships won't be armed. * points this out rather smugly * They have no need for arms where they live. Heck, they never made weapons till old Morgoth told the Noldor to.

And as for Sauron, we're going to have to change a lot of our posts after what Child has written then. Otherwise, Sauron's aware of us, he's coming in to kill us, we're toast, unless for some strange reason the Telerin bring an armour ship with cannons. Most unreal.

Mithadan

09-21-2002, 12:12 AM

Pio, Child, Bird, feel free to post a copy of my e-mail here, I didn't keep a copy. In shory form, yes we are now short on conflict, no Sauron does not have a fleet -- Pharazon took all the warships, no the Teleri are not arrayed for war making a conflict with a lesser number of vessels viable, and the caverns may prove to be more of a challenge than we think.

Child of the 7th Age

09-21-2002, 09:04 AM

Here's a copy of the memo I got--Mith, I think this is you. The e-mail address is different:

I see your point. Perhaps we can somehow lay a
foundation for Ar-Pharazon having emptied the land of
warships. Gorthaur requests ships to be sent to look
for the dragon, but between the storm and the King's
fleet only a few ships can be sent.

Re the caverns, in close spaces a very few men can
hold out against a greater force. The Teleri ships
would be lightly manned, transport rather than ships
of war...

GreatWarg

09-21-2002, 09:12 AM

Alright, that clears things up a bit. And as for guards, how many would be guarding the caverns? They aren't expecting an assault, so there can't be that many, and most of the warriors probably went with Ar-Pharazon. I don't expect there to be a warrior left if the 'Almighty King of Numenor' is going to war with the Vala. (Ignorant fool...)

piosenniel

09-21-2002, 09:47 AM

I see your point. Perhaps we can somehow lay a
foundation for Ar-Pharazon having emptied the land of
warships. Gorthaur requests ships to be sent to look
for the dragon, but between the storm and the King's
fleet only a few ships can be sent.

So, Gorthaur's ships could not be warships. Since all of those have gone to the West. But ships manned, nonetheless, by fighting men loyal to Gorthaur. Would they be capturing any of you? Are you and the hobbrim going to somehow sink and kill the one(s) you encounter? If they get word back to Gorthaur (and I'm sure He would be in communication with them through osanwë) will we have a larger force to deal with at the caves?

Re the caverns, in close spaces a very few men can
hold out against a greater force. The Teleri ships
would be lightly manned, transport rather than ships
of war...

I am assuming this means the guards at the caverns will be able to fend us off for quite a while - they being the small force, against us the larger? Their advantage could increase if Gorthaur has at the last moment found out about the hobbit prisoners and sends has the guard increased against us.

Also, Pio must have a Telerin Elf aboard every vessel that does not have one of the companions with whom she's linked before. Otherwise, that unlinked ship will be dead in the water to her.

Child of the 7th Age

09-21-2002, 10:03 AM

Don't mean to give people a headache over the weekend! I'd been looking for a latch in the story to add spice/suspense, (whatever) and I couldn't resist the dragon and osanwe! I should have checked first but the muse of writing carried me away. Sorry!

I love this crazy story, but I think there's a challenge built into the structure. Since the hobbits must be hidden in view of later history, we can't go up against Sauron and his minions, eye to eye, since that implies they'll learn about our "secret." (And vice versa is true as well)

I think we have three "problems" to ovecome:

1. If Sauron knows about any of us in any way, it still can't be tied in to the hobbits---this is the one thing the dragon twist did accomplish.

2. Did the Elves sign on for a "battle" or just transport duty? I guess I feel that when you agree to sneak into the tombs of Numenor, you have to expect anything might happen. You hope it won't and you plan like crazy so it won't but conflict is still a possibility.

3. Were the ships well enough armed to take on 2-3 spy ships? I think I am beginning to agree with Pio on this. The Elves had light arms but not the kind of weapons that would take out an entire ship. So that is a problem the way I'd thought about it.

So let's consider some alternatives that build on the ideas of Mith and Helen--maybe combine them.

How about? The dragon sequence happens as I have described it. Then the dragon tells Mithadan and Pio when he gets back what actually happened in his mind, i.e. the awareness of Sauron. (Cami senses something wrong, but the dragon isn't telling her since what the blazes could she do?)

Mith and Pio decide we have to "spy" and find out what's really going wrong. So Levanto smuggles Daisy in to the prison. (Pio--you make a great Daisy!) The hobbits make sure Daisy is assigned to work duty on the mount somewhere near the big "muckymucks". (And I betch Kali is upset by having Daisy go, in view of their growing friendship!) If smuggling Daisy in is too risky, maybe we could use Helen's Gamba who's assigned to gravedigging duties?

Somehow, we need to be aware of what Sauron is doing. That puts the pressure on us, and by implication the reader. Perhaps, some of Sauron's commanders or officers can be near the tombs, in connection with the guards and their duties. Anyways Daisy or Gamba spies and overhears that Sauron is suspicious about something (i.e. the dragon) and he's recalling his fleet--like Mith said. Maybe some guards are saying they'd rather get transferred to the fleet than taking care of pipsqueaks in a tomb!

So what we have is a battle against the clock. If the fleet gets back, we know we'll be toast. He'd discover us and the Elves, and bye, bye everything. Our ships do not have the facility to enter into sea battles. It would certainly give us a reason to be upset!

I don't know if there's any way we could tell the Elven ships to come faster (send out Kali or Bird to swim and tell them??) But maybe that's not possible according to the strategy issues (which Cami and Sharon have a hard time grasping with their feeble brains!)

Then it works out like Helen says-- we're leaving with the hobbits. The first ships give us chase, and we race away.

Either we could completly get away, or there is some damage or loss of life. Perhaps one of the ships is strafed and we have to rescue people out of the water??? I don't know -- you guys are better on chase and battle things than I am.

That's another thing that struck me--no one has died and stayed dead. Is it possible Veritas (or dare I say, Khelek? Sorry Khelek--if you don't want to die, ignore this!) does something noble and gets killed in battle at the tombs? I'd volunteer Cami, but that doesn't seem to fit in with our major theme--the continuation of the hobbits. So Cami has to keep living, even though doing something noble and foolhardy might appeal to her as a "shortcut" to Maura. (But if you want her to croak, I'll let you do it!)

So the conflict built in is that of racing against time. We know what Sauron plans to do. The question is: can we do our own thing first? Another variation on this is, once we know the fleet is being recalled, Bird could do some snooping of those ships right before the rescue to see how close they are--and, man, they're too close for comfort!

Is any of this possible, or too far fetched? Which parts, if any do you like, and which won't work? sharon

[ September 21, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

GreatWarg

09-21-2002, 10:26 AM

Are Elves always the noble ones, getting killed, or whatever? I have no say for Veritas, but if her player doesn't come along we may have to use her instead... and if there's no way around it... we could use Khelek. Not that he would mind, a faster way of getting to the West, if you take my meaning. Who knows, he might get a chance of meeting Gil-galad, and Finrod, and Fingolfin, and Feanor, Turgon, and all the other great Elves of the Eldar Days.

And as for the spy ships, they wouldn't give chase if they weren't well-armed with anything but arrows. They didn't have much technology to sink a ship in those days, unless they were to burn them or something. Could they use oil, perhaps, and create an oil spill, and set it on fire??? Nay, they might not want the risk of burning themselves.

And arrows can't do much against a large ship, except maybe rip a few holes in the sails. It's like going up against a tank armed with a Nerf gun. (Or am I just exaggerating?)

Would it be possible for them to have some foul arts of Sauron? Maybe like explosions that they used in Minas Tirith, or catapult fire brands?

piosenniel

09-21-2002, 11:37 AM

Let me go through this from my point of view -

If Sauron somehow finds out about the imprisoned hobbits - it must be at the very last moment when all he can do is send extra guards to the site. He is the Lord of Gifts and a fair deceiver - I don't think many or any of the rescuers could face and resist him.

None of the fleet can be 'recalled'. They are already many days on their way to Aman by the time Sauron should find out about anything. Sauron/Gorthaur must use what ships he can find (I don't think Ar-Parazôn would have given Gorthaur that much military power that he would have a fleet of his own.)
Again, if Sauron's spy ships are out looking for dragon they will be in direct contact with him. So, any direct encounter with one of them needs to come just before our rescue of the hobbits - even if we sink the ship and kill all, he will know who has done it and will focus on us.

I agree with Khelek - The Telerin will not be eager to do anything other than some small defense during the rescue mission. That is their objective - to transport the the hobbits, not to engage in major battles with men or maia.

The dragon sequence is good - with Angara coming back to let Mith and Pio know the details of his Encounter with the evil mind. Ancalimon already knows of this encounter - see Mith's post in the story about that. Should we assume he would already has told Mith and Pio about it, or not? Most of Sauron's concern should turn solely on the hint of dragon that he sensed.

If we go with the Daisy sequence - I don't mind writing her. Levanto can go back upriver to deliver her (I think he will need to alert them he is bringing her - perhaps make contact with Gamba who would love to pump her for all the info he can get about Pio.) She cannot be 'up' on the mount because Sauron would then know about the hobbits. She can work in the guard headquarters during the day, being the more or less invisible victorian servant around whom all the 'betters' speak freely. At night she would go back to the caves with the other hobbits. That's how she and Gamba could talk and how Levanto could bring back info she has gleaned. This would be an interesting write, I think, and would bring together the old and new hobbit cultures.

Sauron's commanders should not be near the tombs or caverns - Again, He cannot find out about the hobbits until the last. And I am still unclear how we are planning that he does find out about the hobbits and sends more guards to the site. Can we instead, have the actual guards at the site become suspicious somehow and asked for increased troops 'just in case'? We then have to plan something for them to be suspicious about. Any ideas? Do we want Daisy hauled up on suspicion because she's the new girl in the office?

Perhaps the 'battle against the clock' can be against Sauron's actual coming to engage us at the caverns. And the race to to free Daisy from the isolation cell they have her in.

BTW - once the Teleri arrive - Pio will arrange immediate links with them and we will immediately sail upriver. We will go under the cover of darkness (20 ships! Only a blind person couldn't see them going up the long river!)

No, Pio doesn't dare contact them again.
No, that is the fastest they can come - this was previously discussed with Tuor via Idril when Pio first went back to speak with her. They are travelling, already, twice as fast as the King's fleet going the other way.

*the light bulb goes on!

unless of course we have an Ulmo intervention at this part of the story!

What do you think?

[ September 21, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ]

GreatWarg

09-21-2002, 02:12 PM

Hmmm... Ulmo intervention sounds good to me. It would be good to know we aren't totally going to be on rampaging waters that would like to do nothing more than drown us. Yes, I know, Khelek likes thinking pessimistically.

Mithadan

09-21-2002, 02:49 PM

I will go with whatever you guys decide. As I said, I think some tension is needed. I agree that Sauron wouldn't have warships at his disposal. Pharazon was a fool but he wasn't stupid.

Assume that he sends a ship which doesn't find the Cami landing party. They are lured off; just because our wizard can't use magic doesn't mean he can't use his other talents (I seem to recall fireworks in the shape of a dragon from somewhere). Maybe there's a land battle with guards not affiliated with Sauron just to spice things up.

Having not found the dragon, our Dark friend would send out a few more, probably not enough to contest 20 Elven ships. Maybe they are seen going in and a greater force meets them coming out. Maybe all but the foremost are outrun.

Battle in the seas at that time would consist of ramming, use of fire (arrows) and boarding. This could provide some color.

We need to strive for believeability. We can't overcome a fleet. We do not have tremendous resources in arms. Stealth has been our ally. I wonder if anyone actually reads this as it progresses?

Child of the 7th Age

09-21-2002, 07:07 PM

I wonder if anyone actually reads this as it progresses?

Mith-- Helen used to read it, but then she joined us! I am actually thinking as much about the fanfiction than about the PG per se. It is possible that the fanfiction would have a few bold readers. (At least, I'll bludgeon Bethberry over the head to read it!)

None of the fleet can be 'recalled'. They are already many days on their way to Aman by the time Sauron should find out about anything.

Pio -- I guess you are right so we have to figue out an alternative scenario for conflict.

The dragon sequence is good - with Angara coming back to let Mith and Pio know the details of his Encounter with the evil mind. Ancalimon already knows of this encounter - see Mith's post in the story about that. Should we assume he would already have told Mith and Pio about it, or not? Most of Sauron's concern should turn solely on the hint of dragon that he sensed.

In my opinion, Ancalimon would have immediately shared his knowledge with Mith and Pio. That knowledge would basically be that Sauron had sensed Angara. However,I think the dragon would come back and talk to them as well. Angara would be able to add two points to this. Before their link was broken, the wyrm sensed two things: Sauron would have loved to add Angara to his circle of minions, and, Sauron was suspicious about why there was a dragon floating around and began to wonder if there was something strange afoot.

Regarding the hobbits and Sauron I think Sauron does know that beings exist who are called hobbits, but I don't think he thinks about it very much. He's probably even aware that some hobbits are imprisoned. After all, the hobbit are out on work duty digging graves, in the mines, etc. and his own guys would have seen this.

Although knowing hobbits exist, Sauron does not understand their significance in the big picture. This is different than Morgoth and Ar-phrazon who do have a glimpse of this. He may see hobbits walking around, but he doe not know why Ar-Phrazon imprisoned them, or even that they are all in the tombs. He would see them as worthless pipsqueaks, and wouldn't pay them much attention.

However, even at the end of the story, Sauron can not understand about the significance of the hobbits. Otherwise, his suspicions will be aroused in the Third Age.

How about this as alternatives? First, Angara is miserable with Cami on the shore, but won't tell her what happened. He only says we have to get back to the ship right away. As soon as the storm is over, we leave with the hobbrim---we have one encounter with a ship of baddies who are stranded in the storm. They may actually have been beached. We kill them and scuttle the ship so Sauron thinks they drowned in the bad weather.

Angara tells Mith and Pio about what happened to him--this confirms what Ancalimon says but gives the added bad news that Sauron is searching for the dragon and has become a bit suspicious that something may be going on. Daisy is sent to spy in Levanto's headquarters. She gets the news back to us through the brothers and Levanto. She never confronts Sauron or his "big" commanders. Because Sauron is suspicious he doubles up the guards on all prisoners--not just the hobbits. He has only a few spy ships but he sends those out looking. They catch Daisy spying and she's imprisoned in guard headquarters.

Perhaps we get an Ulmo intervention to make the ships less visible? This is the second age not the third--the Valar haven't totally deserted yet. Perhaps a terrible fog that night??? Or a cloak of invisbility? That way they can get up the river without the spy ships knowing. Within the tombs, we have more guards to contend with plus the problem of releasing Daisy who's held in the guard's headquarters. (Hey, can Kali or Gamba help with this? Give her a young admirer. It might decide which way she chooses.) I can see we can't let the spy ships see us unless we destroy them--otherwise they will tell Sauron, and the 3rd age will turn out differently.

So maybe our "weapon" has to be invisibility. Like the hobbits, we--as rescuers of the hobbits--must be hidden.

There's one more problem, and this is important. We're doing this a week before the flood. So people would ave time t get back to Sauron and tell him what happened after the rescue. Even if they don't tell, Sauron can go see the cells with the hobbits are empty. Won't Sauron know the hobbits have been picked out specially for a rescue? There is a way around this. We can let open the prison doors for everyone in the vicinity --Men, too-so Sauron will never know we explicitly came for hobbits. I assume they would have had a ton of prisoners of various races. I think we have to do this, to obscure the fact that our only real concern is hobbits.

Any ideas?

Pio, do you want to give this discussion till tomorrow afternoon, and then take a stab at summing up the ideas you think will work best. Logistics isn't my strong point!

sharon

[ September 21, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

piosenniel

09-21-2002, 07:32 PM

*Chokes on iced tea she was drinking when she read the line: "Pio, do you want to give this discussion till tomorrow afternoon, and then take a stab at summing up the ideas you think will work best. Logistics isn't my strong point!" - and is now wiping it off the monitor!

I'll look at it more closely tonight - when la famille is bedded down.

*shakes her head and laughs

Logistics and me! I don't believe we've been used in the same sentence before - or even in the same paragraph!

One point: Mith says -

Having not found the dragon, our Dark friend would send out a few more, probably not enough to contest 20 Elven ships. Maybe they are seen going in and a greater force meets them coming out. Maybe all but the foremost are outrun.

I has not thought about sailing back out from the caves to the bay. It seemed it would be hard enough to get the Teleri ships to the caves, so I had planned to time transport once we had secured the prisoners immediately to approximately one year later in time.

I am not too familiar with sailing a ship - but once we have them up the river, how are we to turn 20 of them around and sail back out?

Another idea - I was toying with the idea of Tuor and Idril coming along as a surprise with the 20 ships. What if Tuor has understood the tactical problems we might have and a couple of more heavily armed fighting ships come with him? (Where is that catamaran from the former story when we need it?)

[ September 21, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ]

Child of the 7th Age

09-21-2002, 07:37 PM

Another idea - I was toying with the idea of Tuor and Idril coming along as a surprise with the 20 ships. What if Tuor has understood the tactical problems we might have and a couple of more heavily armed fighting ships come with him? (Where is that catamaran from the former story when we need it?)

Pio --that's an interesting idea. If we just had one good fightng ship, we could blow those two small spy ships to smithereens. I really like that idea, in view of their earlier role in the story. Also, they "failed" in Gondolin. This gives them a chance to save our necks here. It neatly closes the circle.

sharon

Bêthberry

09-21-2002, 07:52 PM

*raises hand timidly*

I'm reading it. smilies/smile.gif

Bb

Birdland

09-21-2002, 08:10 PM

Logistics and me! I don't believe we've been used in the same sentence before - or even in the same paragraph!
Hey, you guys better know what you're doing. I'm following you! (Birdie wanders off to play with hobbrims until someone tells her to go somewhere. "La-La-La...")Can't the storm just scatter Sauron's fleet?

I'm reading it.
Bethberry - Our biggest fan! Sorry I haven't been to the Party today, but I've been busy herding cats...I mean, mentoring writers. (Glares at Mith.)

GreatWarg

09-21-2002, 08:16 PM

Hmmm... nice way to put an end to things. But there is a problem about turning around in a river with a long line of twenty boats. And that's not counting Idril and Tuor. Our only hope is that there's a place for harbourage upstream. Otherwise we'll be neatly caught on both sides. I see a little battle sequence coming up there.

piosenniel

09-21-2002, 10:21 PM

There is a battle scene - a nice big one when we rescue the hobbits. Once we get them all on board - then the time transfer happens.

Are you sure you don't want to die there smilies/smile.gif and go West? The Halls of Mandos aren't all that bad, and Valinor is great this time of year. Not to mention that I'm sure the great hero Khelek would be immortalized in a long song by the grateful hobbits!!!!

mark12_30

09-22-2002, 04:48 AM

Yeah, I could see that too, Khelek; think about that if you do one o' them battle scenes. History, and all that.

Child of the 7th Age

09-22-2002, 07:00 AM

There is a battle scene - a nice big one when we rescue the hobbits. Once we get them all on board - then the time transfer happens

Sounds good.

But what about the last question I raised? If Sauron knows the hobbits have been singled out for rescue, even after the fact, doesn't that put the third age in jeopardy? Don't we have to try and make it look like a more general rescue, by opening the prison doors on at least some of the Men who must also have been imprisoned nearby?

When we originally planned the rescue way back in the beginning, we thought it would take place immediately before the flood. Then no one would have known about the hobbits' disappearance. But we are doing it a whole week ahead---for legitimate tactical reasons. So don't we need to cover our footsteps somehow?

Are we going to kill off every guard? Or will some still be alive to go tell their boss what happened? Even if we kill them all, Sauron's minions would see that the hobbit cells, and only the hobbit cells are empty. Don't we need to make sure some other cells are empty too? They don't need to know who we put on the boats and who just ran away. In the confusion of battle and all that would not be clear.

Can we still use "Ulmo's fog" as a protection going down the river for the ships? I liked that idea.

sharon

[ September 22, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

Rose Cotton

09-22-2002, 07:28 AM

*raises hand high into the air and starts jumping up and down*

Oooh Pick me Pick me! Rose can die. Dieing is not such a big deal for elves. I mean Khelek was gonna go the west eventually anyway. But hobbits arn't sure where they're going so it's more of a sacrafice. I feel like Rose has been Cami's shadow for awhile. Let her do something. It doesn't have to be heroic. Rose is definatly someone who would do somthing stupid and get herself killed.

Um.....so what do you think?

Bêthberry

09-22-2002, 09:24 AM

Birdie,

Bethberry - Our biggest fan! Sorry I haven't been to the Party today,...

S'okay, Birdie. Me too. And it's not as if I had just started a conversation with you which you were ignoring, like some people who shall remain nameless. *goes off to talk with those who do want to talk with her* smilies/wink.gif

Bb

piosenniel

09-22-2002, 09:28 AM

Let's work on one task at a time.

What we know:

The Star is 100 miles off the coast of southern Numenor.

There is a storm.

Mithadan, Pio, Ancalimon, and Veritas are onboard the Star.

The Star hobbits, Kali, Bird , and Angara are somewhere to the southeast on the coast of that peninsula. They have found the missing hobbrim.

Angara has been foolish enough to use osanwë and so has been sensed by Gorthaur(Sauron), but not found. Sauron knows nothing of the Star or the hobbrim rescue mission.

The Star has been in the 2nd Age for 5 days.

The Teleri have been on their way for 5 days and will reach us in 15 days.

The Númenorean armada has been gone 6 days and will reach Aman in 33 days.
___________________________________________

What we need to do now, is get Angara back to the ship soon so she can fill them in on what she experienced of Sauron's intent.

Then we need to get the hobbrim rescue party(hereafter referred to as HRP) and I'm supposing the hobbrim themselves onto the Star (How many are there, BTW?)

Sauron will be interested in finding the dragon and send say 2 or 3 small, lightly manned craft (not warships) to patrol the coastal waters in hopes of discovering the dragon. Two men, loyal to Sauron, would be enough to pilot these craft.

The HRP and hobbrim cannot get back to the Star because of these patrols. Can we have them stuck there say 3 or 4 days?

I propose moving the Star closer in now to the island. We can somehow make it look as if it were a largish fishing vessel coming back into port.(We had already discussed earlier that we would no longer go with the idea of it being a vessel of Elven design) Ancalimon and Mithadan can be the Old Fisherman and Mith, his first mate/son. The elves would have to stay below decks, out of sight.

We will be hailed by one of the patrol boats and boarded to see who we are. At that point, after some tense questioning by Sauron's man and his growing suspicion of Ancalimon and Mith, we will slay him, board the other craft quickly, slay the other minion and then we have to figure out what to do with their craft.

What say we let Ancalimon use his pyrotechnics here - we can burn the boat to make it look as if Dragonfire had hit it, and then pull away from it to seem as if we were just observers of the terrible wrath of the dragon.

As the other Sauron-craft converge on that area to see what has happened, Ancalimon could shoot off one of his Dragon Fireworks and they go haring off after it while we slip past them to pick up the HRP and the hobbrim and move back out to sea.

**** I wonder if just before this point we can have Daisy volunteer to infiltrate the guard headquarters near Menelarma. The patrolling of the coasts has gotten the hobbits and hobbrim worried that 'something' might be happening at the cave prison. The hobbrim and Levanto (he will need to introduce her to the prison hobbits) can take her upriver and Gamba can take charge of getting her to the Elders. There are already hobbit lasses who work in the HQ office, and don't all hobbits look the same to Men? So, they could exchange her for one who already works there. She can learn of their plans to increase the patrol of the river, increase the guards, and increase the coastal patrol and get the info back through Levanto. When security tightens even further, she can be put in an isolation cell separate from the caves - perhaps they find a directive on her that she has stolen from someones desk.******

Sauron will be 'aware' that something has happened in the area he is having patrolled, but not know details. At this point, I'm thinking he is not in osanwë contact with the people on the 3 craft. The other two craft will report to him through their contact on shore,who will be in direct communication with him.

Sauron will now be on full alert and there will be increased ships (not warships, but now armed somewhat) patrolling the coast.

We will have word through Daisy that this is what has been ordered, as well as increased guards at the prison, and patrols of the River.

Once we get through this section of the story - then let's break down the rest of the tasks to be done and tackle them one at a time.

mark12_30

09-22-2002, 10:27 AM

Hey Bethberry,

You and I can be clueless together, eh? I'll leave the tactics to the tacticians, and whine about grave digging and write a peom for poor dead Khelek; that's about my speed. This thing is getting so crazy I'm beginning to forget my own name, but he11, they say the short term memory is the first to go. Mine's long gone.

oh, wait, Khelek hasn't died yet. Sorry, old bean.

--mark something or other

Child of the 7th Age

09-22-2002, 10:44 AM

The HRP and hobbrim cannot get back to the Star because of these patrols. Can we have them stuck there say 3 or 4 days?

Absolutely no problem. Bird and I had planned a 2-3 day storm all along so an extra day won't kill us.

I propose moving the Star closer in now to the island. We can somehow make it look as if it were a largish fishing vessel coming back into port.(We had already discussed earlier that we would no longer go with the idea of it being a vessel of Elven design) Ancalimon and Mithadan can be the Old Fisherman and Mith, his first mate/son. The elves would have to stay below decks, out of sight.

We will be hailed by one of the patrol boats and boarded to see who we are. At that point, after some tense questioning by Sauron's man and his growing suspicion of Ancalimon and Mith, we will slay him, board the other craft quickly, slay the other minion and then we have to figure out what to do with their craft.

A mannish boat, rather than an Elvish boat is fine for the Star. But how could the Star sail to the coast when there's such bad weather? Don't they have to wait till the weather dies down a little? Maybe the storm is still going on, but it's beginning to slacken when they come.

Let me suggest a chronology for this and you see if it works.

1. Rescue party is stuck for 3 days on account of the storm. During those 3 days, these things happen:

a. Angara wakes up and is weeping and she's angry at Mith because he used Osanwe. (Even when Mith posted, I wondered if he should have sent Angara, since she might attract attention. I never dreamed of Osanwe attention, however. ) Angara won't tell Cami what has happened but only says we must get back to the Star. Of course, we can't leave because of the weather.

b. A scene or two with lore and discussing hobbit history (see helen's latest post re remembering maura) Helen also has a new poem for the hobbrim to sing.

c. During the storm, a small ship with two men is beached on the coast. We know it belongs to Sauron because of the banner(Hey, what insignia did Sauron use?)
Angara is still ill so she can't do anything. We don't want to use the hobbrim since they're even more hidden than hobbits. Bird is smart enough not to use her dragon form, as there aren't many dragons floating over Numeor.

After the storm ends, Rose and Bird go to Sauron's ship in the middle of the night. There is a scuffle and the women overpower them since they do have the element of surprise. The hobbrim push the ship out into slightly deeper waters and scuttle it. Sauron will think it drowned in the storm.

2. As the storm dies down, the Star heads towards land. Mith does this beause of what Ancalimon has said concerning Sauron and Angara. Mith and Pio are beginning to worry that something may be going wrong. Therefore, they send the Star in to investigate and help with the rescue.

While Rose's and Bird's ambush of the ship and its scuttling is going on, the scene with the Star as a fishing vessel takes place, as you described. The Star comes and picks us up. We are already out swimming in the water towards the ship. (Of course, we think it's 100 miles away.)

3. An angry Angara tells his story to Mith. He is furious that Mith used osanwe. Angara's story confirms what Ancalimon already told Mith and Pio -- Sauron's awareness of the dragon. But Angara adds two more points of informtion: Sauron wants to add the dragon to his circle of minions, and Sauron is beginning to be suspicious that something weird may be up--though he has no idea what.

4. Bird tells the story how she and Rose found a beached craft of Sauron, and how they killed the men and scuttled it.

5. Mith and Pio are alarmed. What Angara said, plus the presence of the craft of Sauron, doesn't sound good. They need more information.

5. Daisy makes her offer to go spy on guard headquarters. At first, Mith refuses it saying it's too dangerous for one small girl to be sent out alone. The he decides we have to have more info. Levanto takes Daisy to the tombs........She discovers the things like you said, and gets the information back through Levanto.

I do think Daisy should make a point of saying she has seen imprisoned men as well as hobbits at work. We want to lay some grundwork for flinging open the jail cells of men, since the hobbits can't be singled out to Sauron.

Regarding Daisy in an isolation cell--maybe she's trying to get a memo off someone's desk--maybe the new duty roster for the guards, only thankfully the bad guys think she's trying to steal some money or jewelry also lying there?

I agree, since Sauron's folk were men, they do not have direct osanwe contact with their boss.

What do you think?
sharon

GreatWarg

09-22-2002, 11:02 AM

Great, I'm already thought of as dead. Very comforting you are, mark!

And it looks like the details are pretty much worked out, except how are we supposed to tend hobbits and whoever else we save from Ar-Pharazon. What do we do with the extra Men? Drop them off on Middle-earth with the hobbits?

mark12_30

09-22-2002, 11:06 AM

If:
1. Sauron isn't suppopsed to know that there are hobbits and
2. he will find out if we screw up and let a guard loose
then
3. Why are hobbits (Rose) running around in headquarters?
4. If hobbits can run around in headquarters because Sauron has separate headquarters, and Ar-Pharazon's henchmen know to keep the hobbits a secret from Sauron, then why would Ar-Pharazon's guards tell Sauron about the hobbits even if half the guards escaped?
5. If the headquarters are separate and keeping secrets from each other all the time, then what good does it do to send Rose to spy on Sauron's headquarters from withhin Ar-Pharazon's headquarters?
and lastly
6. Was my idea of hobbit sacrifices along with human sacrifices stupid all along, because then Saruon would find out about them? Then I should delete all those silly references to mysteriously filled little graves, because they no longer make a lick of sense. I guess another mine collapse can explain the orphans.

Gamba is confused as usual, somebody please send Levanto to straighten him out enough so that he doesn't alert Sauron all by himself. Assuming he hasn't already.

[ September 22, 2002: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

Child of the 7th Age

09-22-2002, 11:11 AM

Possible addendum to Sauron's ship beached on the shore since we prefer not to kill sleeping people in cold blood................

There is one sleeping spy, and one spy awake who is guarding the small beached ship. Remember our rescue party doesn't know about the osanwe scene and Sauron's suspicions. Because of this, Bird and Rose don't expect there to have been a guard set in peaceful Numenor. But because of Sauron's suspicions, he has advised the spies to keep one guard awake. The guard hears something and then wakes his companion. Then a fight ensues. We win and the hobbrim scuttle the ship.

Maybe, we should have a bigger group--Cami and Daisy as well as Rose and Bird to go to the ship. I don't mind if Cami stumbles over her own nose and wakes up both men, if that helps!

sharon

[ September 22, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

piosenniel

09-22-2002, 11:50 AM

I put this in my email, but let me say it here - Sauron has some small craft he is using for the patrol - they are not his, per se, but are manned by his men. You will have to make up the insignia.

I don't actually see the storm lasting quite so long - it is summer there. I thought the reason you can't leave would be the patrols along the coast line. that would be more plausible.

Yes - get Angara back to the boat - I'm sure Mith will want to speak with her. And Pio has a few things on her mind also (ooh, do we see something interesting coming up here - maybe) smilies/wink.gif

Yes - Hobbit lore sequence is good - Helen I think we abandoned the idea that Sauron knew nothing of the hobbits, but he knows nothing of their import to the future of M-E. Hobbits make good sacrifices - saves on Men!

Yes - to the beached boat - but it will have to be earler than you planned - the storm should not last that long.

Let Daisy go, too, to the beached ship - I PM'd you, Child, that she and Rose were in the proper mindset for killing foe due to their talk with Pio after sword practice.

The Star is 100 miles out - it will come in slowly, looking as if it were trawling for fish, etc. It does not want to raise the suspicions of the patrol boats.
** If you are swimming toward the ship, I assume this means by yourself?! or are the hobbrim coming too & BTW how many are there? **

Can we get Daisy to the tombs before we drag you all back out to sea? Because we will be heading back out once we have picked you up. We cannot hang out in the Bay, hiding all but Mith and Ancalimon in the hold.

Good idea for Daisy to look as if she meant to steal something other than just the duty roster(or how about pen,ink, and paper to take back to Gamba and Phura - the duty roster would just 'happen' to be in the stack of papers - or so she tells the guard who catches her!)

Yes - I think now that Sauron's men should not be osanwë connected to him, but he should have an 'awareness' however vague of how things are going which concern him.

Rose Cotton

09-22-2002, 12:09 PM

I PMed Child about this but I thought I'd put it here too. About my earlier post when I said I'd be willing to die.

What I ment was that if we kill someone let it be me.

Birdland

09-22-2002, 12:12 PM

(Now?...OK...ahem..) I was discussing with Child and Pio the possiblity of Angara and Birdie covering the tracks of the Hobbit rescue by staging a "Dragon attack" on the prison. Burning and trashing the place so that Sauron and his minions would think that the Hobbit prison had been destroyed by "rogue dragons". Does this sound good to everyone?

Helen - D'oh! I never made the connection that Sauron was sacrificing Hobbits! I just thought everyone was dropping like flies because...well...it's a prison camp. You know, like a "Bridge Over the River Kwai" kind of thing.

All I can say is "Yuck!"

mark12_30

09-22-2002, 12:25 PM

Yeah, I try not to think about it too much, but will you guys please HURRY UP AND RESCUE US BEFORE THEY GET US TOO?

please

Two weeks sounds like forever.

mark12_30

09-22-2002, 12:32 PM

Khelek,

Repeat after me: Undying glory and immortality and a trip to Valhalla with the Valkyrie maidens.

Uh, whups, wrong mythos. And I guess you already HAD immortality. Geez, you sure are getting a bum deal out of this. I'd renegotiate. Let them bump off Rose instead. Or hey, how about Mith??? smilies/eek.gif Then Angara could feel REALLY guilty. For a LONG time.

GreatWarg

09-22-2002, 12:54 PM

It doesn't seem ethical to bump off Mithadan. After all, this whole adventure is his fault. And Angara would be guilty for the rest of his dragon life, which is... forever. Nope, too long. Besides, what about poor Pio? And if we do bump off Rose... that seems kind of wrong also. Then again, killing and taking any life is wrong.

mark12_30

09-22-2002, 01:09 PM

Khelek just signed up as the Chaplain of the Lonely Star. His sword is now up for auction and he is looking for a helmet with a red cross, anybody seen one?

GreatWarg

09-22-2002, 01:13 PM

mark12_30 - What? I did? Hey, I don't need a helmet with any red cross on it! And I'll be keeping my sword, thank you very much. I still want it for hacking down any baddies we come across.

mark12_30

09-22-2002, 01:26 PM

Ah, these fair-weather-pacifists.

Bêthberry

09-22-2002, 03:14 PM

But think of all the angst if, just after plighting their troth, either Pio or Mithadan does die. It would be full of pathos and fit in with Tolkien's concept of the long defeat. It would be art rather than wish fulfilment.

Opps, sorry. This is not an audience participation story. Have you considered any marketing surveys like Hollywood does for its films? Then you could do the opposite of what the survey claims to ensure true integrity.

Helen, you and me second guessing the quarterbacks here. smilies/wink.gif What says you to a drink at the Picnic late tonight? You and me 'n Birdie.

Bethberry

Rose Cotton

09-22-2002, 03:14 PM

And if we do bump off Rose... that seems kind of wrong also.

Not if she volinteers for it. *waves hand in the air more enthusiasticly*

Killing Mith would destroy the great love story we're building up. But Rose doesn't have a love life.

[ September 22, 2002: Message edited by: Rose Cotton ]

Child of the 7th Age

09-22-2002, 03:49 PM

Alright everybody. Let's stop thinking about having someone croak and consider Bird's dragon attack.

Now, it seems to me that there is a serious dilemma which I brought up in the earlier thread: Because our rescue is one week before the flood, Sauron is going to know that there has been a special rescue for the hobbits, and he will remember this in the 3rd age. That means Frodo Baggins is probably toast! Not good.

When we first discussed rescue, it was supposed to be just before the flood so that Sauron would never find out. But, for legitimate tactical reasons, the rescue had to be pushed back one week before the flood. So we have to do something to cover our tracks. I had first suggested flinging open some prison doors of men's cells to make it look like a general prison break rather than a rescue of hobbits, but I think Bird's idea is even better (or the two could even be combined).

The two dragons would be sent out after the hobbits were safely in the ships and would flame everything at the base of the mountain. In effect, they would be a mop-up job, destroying all evidence. Sauron would never imagine that two dragons would be doing something like this for the side of the good. Since dragons love death and destruction, we wouldn't even need any other motive than the fun which they get from mowing people down. If the people of Numenor remembered anything from the rescue itself, it would be the sight of the dragons in the air. That's the spectacular part--a few puny fights on the ground with guards would never spread rumors, but the huge winged wyrms sure would.

It sure would get rid of all the leftover guards too. (Barbecued guards!--Very tasty.) Since Sauron is already out looking for dragons because of his contact with Angara, I think he'd totally tie into the tale.

Also, I think this whole thing would actually happen just the way i did on this tread. Cami would see the "flaw" in the plan and go banging on Mith and Pio's door (notice I use the singular here!) to tell them we've got a big problem. Of course, she'd have no idea how to solve the problem an neither would Mithadan. Just like this thread, Bird would have been the one to come forward with this solution. That's the way we should set this up, I think.

Rose Cotton

09-22-2002, 04:09 PM

Sounds great. But how about while the dragons are having fun something goes wrong in the plan to add some suspence.

Perhaps when they start attacking the guards put up a defence and knock one of them out of the sky.

Or the guards could intercept the hobbrim as thier escaping.

Mithadan

09-22-2002, 08:20 PM

Too many cooks! LOL!

Sauron would not expect a ship to be able to capture a dragon; it would fly away or merely roast the vessel. He would instruct his men to seek some sign of the dragon and return and report to him. I suggest that he sends a vessel, with a crew of about 20. It sends a small skiff to sure to look for the dragon. The larger boat approaches the Star. Our landing party assaults the skiff and its small crew and, either guessing or overhearing a conversation, and seeing the larger vessel approach the Star, sets the skiff on fire. Seeing the fire, the larger vessel makes way towards the shore. When it nears the shore, Ancalimon sets off one of his patented dragon rockets and sends it off towards the East and Sauron's ship follows, eventually reposting to the Boss that the dragon was last seen heading East. A bit of misdirection buying us more time. When no sign of the dragon is found in the East, he eventually sends out more boats, giving us later opportunity for conflict.

We can work out the rest of the details at our leisure.

piosenniel

09-22-2002, 10:39 PM

Pio is not dying again! This time she would be on a one way ticket to who knows where!

Helen - welcome to the world of the Star crew hashing out a story section - this used to be all done via email, so not everyone saw the flotsam and jetsam.

I will work with whatever plotline you put together - just keep it within the 'facts'-for-the-story I've created - when we are, where we are, what season it is, what day, etc. smilies/smile.gif

Send Angara to us soon - she and Pio need a heart to heart, or hand to throat - whatever it comes to.

One last thing - I would prefer it if we kept any Valar interventions to a minimum or nothing and just concentrated on our outstanding ability to outsmart the foe. smilies/wink.gif

[ September 23, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ]

Child of the 7th Age

09-23-2002, 07:27 AM

Pio --

I'm going ahead today to set up the story of the small beached ship which the hobbits will take out. Will make sure to pm Rose and Birdie so they know about it.

Storm will not last more than one day.

Wise woman will comment that such weather is unusual for the season but will say nothing more than that.

I'll wait to see what you do in terms of the Star before we get the hobbrim out swimming in the water towards home.

Oh, yeah, we have 30 hobbrim.

Is this all ok?

I work this morning.

sharon

piosenniel

09-23-2002, 10:05 AM

I PM'd Mith to see if this is when he was thinking of setting up the firework-dragon scene. Is it your landing party he is thinking will set fire to the skiff, to draw off the larger ship from the Star?

If so, you'ld better wait for his post before you proceed.

Mithadan

09-23-2002, 10:19 AM

Yes, we should see the sail of the larger vessel soon. Pio can set this up as I don't wan too many successive posts. We don't have to see its landing craft depart. Cami, et al. can take care of the landing vessel's crew and, seeing the larger vessel approaching the Star, perhaps within hailing distance, they set the smaller craft on fire.

piosenniel

09-23-2002, 12:08 PM

Child will be setting up the beached boat scene with Bird and Rose - let's not advance the story timewise, until those two can have a chance to work out their scene (Which will probably be much later this evening)

Then the Star can fire a 'dragon' eastward.

Birdland

09-24-2002, 09:25 AM

Now just wait a cotten-pickin' minute there! How come I get yelled at when I show those Numenoreans a Dragon, but Ancalimon can show them some cheesy fake dragon and that's OK?

(Birdie glowers and morphs into a half woman/half dragon form. It's not pretty.)

Mithadan

09-24-2002, 09:52 AM

Now, now. Angara is just in one of her moods. Can someone else take up the rescue? I do not have time to post.

Rose Cotton

09-24-2002, 02:06 PM

I liked the fake dragon. smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/biggrin.gif
Much more exciting then shape-shifter dragons. smilies/wink.gif *ducks in case Birdie decides to wack her*

LOL! I'm just kidding.

mark12_30

09-24-2002, 07:10 PM

Per conversation with Cami/Sharon, I've been okayed to add a section or 2 about Kali's reunion with the hobbrim, near Cami's skiff and on the shore. Being a chatty hobbit sort I imagine he'll blurt out some bits and peices of his story, so I'm going back through to try and get a clue again. But please feel free to let me know what i get wrong, and I'll correct whatever errors y'all tell me about. I'll post again when the newedits go in.

Child of the 7th Age

09-24-2002, 08:05 PM

We were all so fixed on Angara and the big bad guy that we neglected to cover Kali's happy reunion. Helen has agreed to do that (Yeah) to correct our goof! sharon

Mithadan

09-24-2002, 08:10 PM

Good point. Another point - hasn't Levanto been gone a long time?

mark12_30

09-24-2002, 08:49 PM

Levanto was last seen slipping beneath the waves after agreeing to "step aside" in Mithadan's favor. He was not due at the caves until a week after that visit to the two elders when he obtained the guards' info & other tactical data.

I lose track of time--- especially in this story! Is a week up already? And where would he have gone during the storm, especially while disconsolate?

[ September 24, 2002: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

GreatWarg

09-24-2002, 10:17 PM

Hmmm... where do you go when you want some time alone? I'm still catching up (you do not know how much you all write in one day's time!) so expect me to post sometime tonight or tomorrow as soon as I get a hold on things.

piosenniel

09-25-2002, 02:59 AM

HELEN

As far as I can chart out - We are now seven days into our second age staging. It is difficult at times to sort out the 'and then evening fell' type of posts, but that is where I think we are.

Levanto returned from the cave-prison on the 5th day for us. So he has not been seen for 2 days. I do not see him as disconsolate or angry, more as resigned to the elf's choice, and trying to shift his understanding to how their relationship will now be. (Perhaps I could set him up with Bird! Both seem to be free at the moment. smilies/biggrin.gif )

mark12_30

09-25-2002, 09:09 PM

All, I will be on travel this Saturday (28) thru next Thursday. Posting is very iffy during that time. If there is a serious possibility that The Rescue could happen during that time, please somebody let me know as I've one key scene planned. I've also got another planned for The Choosing-- won't that be a couple of days after The Rescue? I can prewrite it if needed, although I'd rather do the more responsive thing.
--Helen

mark12_30

09-26-2002, 05:05 AM

Pio & Cami-- re: Daisy, I've noticed a conflict-- Cami says taht Daisy beds down between two hobbrim girls and gets adopted into the clan quickly and happily. Pio says that she is lonely and misses Pio and wants her back in her cabin. This could stil work if there was some sort of segue between the two--as, she' happy with the hobbrim but begins to miss her old friends too and gets "homesick" for Pio after a while. But as it sits how it just looks like a contradiction.

Pat, the intrigue is intriguing. What's that sneaky Pio up to? Can't wait.

Child of the 7th Age

09-26-2002, 05:29 AM

Helen--

I saw what Pio had written and changed my earlier post. Just took out the reference completely. sharon

mark12_30

09-26-2002, 06:16 AM

Sharon,

Uh-Oh. I had followed your lead. And I've sent you the beach scene in a PM. Well, edit as you see fit... or return to sender and I'll see what I can do...

All- Kali's homecoming scene has been added (by Sharon, thanks!) to the initial Skiff-Rescue scene, and once (poor) Sharon figures out what to do with all the Daisy references, the beach scene will be up soon too. THey're both on pave five, and they're both REALLY long entries by now! smilies/smile.gif

--Helen

Child of the 7th Age

09-26-2002, 06:33 AM

I will put Daisy back in with the same implication, but won't have her stay overnight. I suppose someone could miss their roomate, and still have good fun with a friend. In fact, the absence might even push two closer together?? sharon

Rose Cotton

09-26-2002, 01:56 PM

Pio and Mith I was so happy for you untill I learned that you can't have children cause it violates a rule. You better take that out Pio or we won't have a story.

mark12_30

09-26-2002, 01:58 PM

Option 2: backfit a simple ceremony. Reread the section on Elvish marriage in Morgoth's Ring.

Mithadan

09-26-2002, 02:04 PM

Just a joke people. I put Elenna up to it. Please don't scream at her.

Bêthberry

09-26-2002, 02:05 PM

This is a joke, right?

Mithadan

09-26-2002, 02:15 PM

Alright. Mithadan has been properly sobered by the recent turn of events (notwithstanding his puppetmaster's odd sense of humor). Thy will be done, people.

Rose Cotton

09-26-2002, 02:16 PM

Number one way to frighten Me:
Close the Role Play me and my friends have been piecing together for 4 months.

mark12_30

09-26-2002, 02:18 PM

Mith, I think you should reread that section in Morgoth's Ring on Elvish marriage. I don't think an elf would be ahead of ceremony. And if Mith and Pio did the quiet, eloping-sort of marriage that Tolkien describes as an option-- meaning, that the conjugal act constitutes the marriage ceremony-- they would have announced it (I think at the latest, the next day) and Daisy would have lost her roommate anyway. Mith and Pio would already be married and there'd be no need for further ceremony.

Rose Cotton

09-26-2002, 02:27 PM

I share your pain Pio. You should dump that man just for that horrible joke. You know I think Angara was right about him. smilies/wink.gif smilies/rolleyes.gif smilies/biggrin.gif

Bêthberry

09-26-2002, 02:39 PM

Well, heck, the community that plays together stays together. smilies/smile.gif

I just didn't think elves could get pregnant that easily or that quickly at that age. smilies/wink.gif

mark12_30

09-26-2002, 02:50 PM

They usually got pregnant in the spring; I have no idea what season it is. But the elvish rules and customs about marriage are quite clear. The conjugal act, if performed without prior ceremony, BECOMES the ceremony. So-- they're officially married. And they should have-- would have-- announced it as a courtesy to their shipmates.

Daisy needs a new roommate.

Rose Cotton

09-26-2002, 02:58 PM

Daisy can go stay with the hobbrim. Or, if you guys like the idea, I don't have a roommate either.

mark12_30

09-26-2002, 03:07 PM

Seriously, people. I realize that I'm incredibly naiive. But I thought that Pio was in Mith's room watching over him because of his headache & whateer "black breath" type effect he got from the conflict with Sauron, and that likewise Mith watched over Pio because she had been out in the rain and he just wanted to sit by her.

So, laugh at me for a naive idiot; many do.

But if they'd gotten close enough for her to conceive, they should have annouced it back then.

Bêthberry

09-26-2002, 03:13 PM

Helen, my dear Helen,

You haven't been reading enough Victorian novels. smilies/wink.gif I recall a passage about an elbow in I think it is Mill on the Floss that ....

Bethberry

mark12_30

09-26-2002, 03:15 PM

I doubt Tolkien read many of them.

He'd be rolling in his grave.

[ September 26, 2002: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

Rose Cotton

09-26-2002, 03:21 PM

Well I don't think I'd hurt for Pio and Mith to have thier oun version on a relationship.

mark12_30

09-26-2002, 03:26 PM

Tolkien clearly wrote down, from the point of view of the Eldar, what the rules about marriage are. See HoME, Morgoth's Ring, Laws and Customs among the Eldar. We've gone to huge effort to make this story as historically accurate as possible, as canonically correct as possible. Why neglect the laws of marriage?

Child of the 7th Age

09-26-2002, 03:38 PM

Yes, Tolkien definitely said that about Elvish unions. In lieu of a ceremony, two Elves are definitely married after the physical act takes place.

Only, I'm human, and it doesn't seem right unless they get up there in front of us and make pledges to each other and exchange rings. Plus, only one-quarter of this union is Elvish. Half is big person, and one-quarter hobbit. And, as far as I'm concerned, that hobbit quarter's not hooked until they go through the proper steps.

sharon

Rose Cotton

09-26-2002, 03:44 PM

LOL Child. So what's the problem? If you bothered to read, Mith's already getting Pio's ring ready.

Child of the 7th Age

09-26-2002, 03:45 PM

Mithadan --

I fear everyone may be hurling stones at you. But Cami would like to thank you. I finally have my heart's desire: to be a prophet and seer like my distant cousin Frodo Baggins.

I refer to my quotation from our discussion this morning:

Hey, you two better get hitched soon. This is supposed to be a "family" oriented website.

Ahem, it appears that Cami properly predicted the fate of our RPG!! And I finally "pushed" you to do the proper thing --go dig out that ring!

Camelia Goodchild

Mithadan

09-26-2002, 04:10 PM

For the record, Mithadan is a mere mortal man, ignorant of the ways of the Elves regarding marriage and, likely, many other matters as well. Mithadan's puppetmaster has read Customs of the Eldar, but, also being a mortal man, forgot the details (though I recall the part about exchanging rings or gifts).

I assume that Piosenniel, as she commented earlier, realizes that Mithadan is a bit of a simpleton on these matters and did not push the point. Also, I'm not sure that she would be constrained to follow Elvish custom outside of her own kin.

Helen, would the exchange of gifts satisfy you, now that Mithadan has come to his wits? If you insist, I will change things around somehow. I wouldn't want anyone to be angry that we have deviated from the proper course at this point.

mark12_30

09-26-2002, 04:30 PM

Is it possible to backfit the exchange of gifts closer to when the romance blossomed and Pio declared her commitment to Mithadan? She made up her mind strongly enough and would not be deterred, I personally see no reason not to exchange gifts at that point.

The advantage of that would be that Pat's post about the twins can stand as written. The post about Mithadan's introduction to the twins was a stunningly beautiful post, and I would be very happy to see it stand exactly as written. (Okay, I could/ should also say that as a reader, having now been introduced to the twins I am loathe to put them on hold for any reason. They are lovely. )

in the meantime, Olive branch accepted, and respectfully kissed and returned, Mith. Thank you.

Mithadan

09-26-2002, 05:48 PM

I'll reread that section of Customs this evening and see what I can do to satisfy Elvish customs at some appropriate point earlier in the story. No olive branch need be offered back. Glad to do it. smilies/smile.gif

[ September 26, 2002: Message edited by: Mithadan ]

mark12_30

09-26-2002, 09:24 PM

Another point to consider:

Mithadan is a man of Numenorean descent, proud of it, and one who tries to maintain his honor in it.

He's also one who constantly reminds his crew about responsibility, chain-of-command, and The Captain Being Responsible for the actions of His Crew.

If in spite of all that, he could, under duress, shrug all that off, and say to himself, "Well, regardless of the societal norms this will flout; regardless of what kind of impact this will have on my crew's respect for me; regardless of what effect this has on morale; regardless of what effect it will have on my crew to realise that I have flouted the conservative societal rules that hobbits, men, and elves grow up with in Middle Earth-- well, nevermind all that. Maybe on a ship this small nobody will notice. And if they do maybe it won't matter."

He's not that much of a wymp. He would have stood his ground, and insisted on maintaining his crew's respect for him.

Piosenniel might not have worried about the rules. Mithadan would have. He's always tried to maintain a tight ship, and he's not about to lose his (conservative) crew's respect. He would fight to keep it.

mark12_30

09-26-2002, 09:39 PM

Who said anything whatsoever about renouncing? "Wait til we exchange vows" is hardly renouncing. Is she comitted to him, or not?

Child of the 7th Age

09-26-2002, 09:59 PM

Cami creeps in where others wisely fear to tread..... Here goes.

Step back and take a deep breath. Perhaps you may not be as far apart as you think.....

The things that Pio has put on her thread suggests to me that Pio and Mith have indeed made a unique commitment to each other, a relationship that we today would indeed call a union or marriage:

The character who is now returned to the story is by far a more mature thinking person with the capacity for real commitments and for genuine love...

Her dawning affection/love for Mithadan will awaken her to the physical, emotional, spiritual layers of authentic commitment

This was not a young elf maiden with the luxury of parents to see her through this dawning love and guide her with their wisdom during a luxuriant year of betrothal. Hers are not the easy circumstances of Rivendell or Lothlorien when she is faced with these decisions, but the everpresent battlefield of Light and Darkness. Having died once by mischance, life is more precious to her. And now, having made that decison to join her courses to Mithadan's and, in so doing, choosing mortality for herself, life becomes even more precious as she realizes how fleeting it will be with him.

In her eyes they have achieved the marriage state.

It was the act of bodily union that achieved marriage, and after which the indissoluble bond was complete.(Morgoth's Ring, p. 212)

This part is me: According to Morgoth's Ring, there is only one thing required to achieve that Elven union. I have indicated in italics the words that I feel are critical

In happy days and times of peace it was held ungracious and contemptuous of kin to forgo the ceremonies, but it was at all times lawful for any of the Eldar, both being unwed, to marry thus of free consent one to another, without ceremony or witness (save blessings exchanged and the naming of the Name); the union so joined was alike indissoluble. In days of old, in times of trouble, in flight and exile and wandering, such marriages were often made. (Morgoth's Ring, p. 212)

Why can we not then approach it from this angle?

1. Pio as the creator and writer for her character has the right to develop that character as she sees fit, whether or not I or anyone else totally agrees with the way she has done so (and of course the vice versa holds true for any character that I or someone else develops.)

I think the above holds as long as the guidelines of the Downs are adhered to and, laying aside Mith's "joke" (GROWL!), I think that nothing has been said or written which goes outside those guidelines. What we are talking about here is a matter of personal discretion, personal beliefs, and courtesies----not rules. And, inevitably, when we write as a group, differences on this level will occur.

Suggested Course : Could we not then have all of Pio's writing hold fast--no change or deletions -- but merely add the following 18 words in the recent scene where Mithadan resolves his conflicts and inconsisencies? These words are as follows: "Then Mithadan and Pio exchanged blessings and undertook the naming of the name, in accordance with hallowed (or ancient??) custom."

Pio -- correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you essentially said this was in accord with Pio's new sense of commitment as well as the realistic fact that she was an "orphan" (Where's Bird when I need her?) and out in the middle of the ocean with no Elvish community at hand.

Helen-- According to Tolkien, this would constitute a legitimate Elvish union. I may be wrong, but I remember thinking when I read the Silm that this was how Beren and Luthien did it (by inference).

Any possibility of this working?

Cami

p.s. The line forms to the left for hurling tomatoes.

[ September 27, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[ September 27, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

Birdland

09-26-2002, 10:18 PM

Babies! Oooooh, babies! Hi, babies! Auntie Birdie's gonna spoil you, yes she is. She'll get you little dwarf toys, and cute lil' matching outfits...and ponies!

But Auntie Birdie doesn't babysit, or change lil' Half-Elven didies. Gotta draw the line somewhere. We'll leave that to Angara.

Piosenniel might not have worried about the rules. Mithadan would have. He's always tried to maintain a tight ship, and he's not about to lose his (conservative) crew's respect. He would fight to keep it.
Hey, Auntie Birdie could care less. She's just glad she's not Elven, or else she'd be considered a bigamist.

mark12_30

09-26-2002, 10:37 PM

Helen-- According to Tolkien, this would constitute a legitimate Elvish union.

Of course it would.

I still think they (or at least, Mith) would have informed the crew, rather than leave everyone guessing and wondering, aboard such a small ship.

Child of the 7th Age

09-26-2002, 11:31 PM

Helen --

Posibly, but maybe not. I'm not sure if these two particular characters would have done this immediately.

Certainly, if Cami had made such vows, she would have yelled it from the highest rooftop!

But both of these characters are, in my opinion, very different. They are very reserved, and value their privacy. And on such a small ship, privacy must be hard to come by. That is one of the things that struck me even in contrasting Pio's situation with my own in the camps. She had no woods to get away to and take quiet walks. Everywhere she looked, people were watching her every move.

Mithadan's character is quite reserved and sometimes enjoys being "mysterious" (or so I see him.) There have been many times in the story when I wasn't really sure what he was thinking, and I believe that was intentional.

Pio's character has been even more like this. Pio herself admits that, for the beginning of the story, the Elf tended to be "manipulative" and was only slowly learning to grow beyond that. Again and again in the plot she's had many "secrets". Going off to see Levanto and not telling folk where she's going is only the latest example.

Looking back on Cami's relationship with Pio in the story, I don't think Pio or Mithadan would ever make a "public" anouncement. Pio would have asked me to come to her cabin and talk privately. Then I would spread the word to the rest of the hobbits (unless she told me it was a secret).

sharon