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Mithadan
01-02-2001, 03:45 PM
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Continuing with the recent theme of debating controversial subjects, on Mount Doom, after Gollum tackles Frodo, Frodo fights Gollum off and Sam sees a figure clothed in white with a wheel of fire on its chest and &quot;from&quot; the wheel of fire comes a &quot;commanding voice&quot; which says:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.&quot; <hr></blockquote>

There are two controveries here. First, is this statement a curse which is fulfilled when Gollum again attacks Frodo in the Sammath Naur? Gollum bites the Ring (and Frodo's finger) off and falls into the Cracks of Doom.

Second, who (or what) is it that makes this statement, curse or not? Some say it is Frodo speaking and others, holding that JRRT carefully selected his words, interpret the voice coming from the wheel of fire as the Ring itself speaking.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000004>Mithadan</A> at: 1/2/01 4:46:39 pm

The Barrow-Wight
01-02-2001, 04:25 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Frodo or the Ring?

I've always held that it was Frodo that spoke because:

1) The phrase neatly echo's Frodo's threat to Gollum as they lay in hiding near the Black Gate;

2) The Ring never spoke before;

3) If the Ring could speak, why didn't it shout out to the nearest servant of Sauron? &quot;Hey! Here I am!&quot;?

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

Mister Underhill
01-02-2001, 06:54 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Frodo or the Ring?

For once we're on the same side, Wight. It just doesn't make sense. Why wouldn't the Ring rather be with Gollum than with Frodo (who after all is on his way to toss it into the drink)?

BTW, Mithadan, congratulations on continually coming up with interesting and thought-provoking topics of discussion and for your well-considered posts. You've been the driving force behind thoughtful discussion in the Books forum of late.

</p>

Mithadan
01-02-2001, 07:05 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Frodo or the Ring?

&lt;BLUSH&gt; Aw shucks.

I too agree with the Barrow Wight, that it was Frodo who spoke and not the Ring. Some have disagreed though and I'd like to hear that point of view too.

I also think that the statement was a curse, primarily based upon Frodo's earlier comment to Gollum. Gollum &quot;offhandedly&quot; suggested that Frodo give him the Ring and Frodo reminded that Gollum had sworn an oath by the Ring to help its master. Frodo mentions that if he took the Ring and told Gollum to jump into the Cracks of Doom, Gollum would have to do so. We have Frodo, at the end, making the statement to Gollum and then claiming the Ring. Gollum then attacks Frodo again and, after biting off Frodo's finger, falls into the fire. Sounds like a curse fulfilled.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

Gwaihir the Windlord
01-02-2001, 08:43 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Frodo or the Ring?

Either Frodo or the Ring spoke a (minor) prophecy. How could Frodo have performed this? Not by himself, I think.
Sauron was an Ainu, and therefore took part in the Music and saw the Vision. He would consequently have some, if not very much, capacity to foretell future events. Frodo was wearing the object containing the greater part of Sauron's native strength; this could mean one of two things.

a) The Ring, holding Sauron's power of prophecy, spoke, or

b) Frodo, weilding Sauron's power of prophecy and unwittingly aided by it, spoke.

I'm inclined to think that the latter of these is true. Why would the Ring keep silent although it passed through the clutches of Nazgul, Orc-companies and Easterlings?


However, in Bag End ( The Shadow of the Past), Gandalf talked to Frodo about the Ring.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> '..even so, he (Bilbo) could not have just forsaken it, or thrown it aside. It was not Gollum, Frodo, but the Ring itself that decided things. The Ring left him.'

'What, just in time to be picked up by Bilbo?' said Frodo. 'Wouldn't an Orc have suited it better?'

'It is no laughing matter,' said Gandalf. 'Not for you. It was the strangest event in the whole history of the Ring so far: Bilbo's arrival just at that time, and putting his hand on it, blindly, in the dark.
'There was more than power at work, Frodo. The Ring was trying to get back to it's master. It had slupped from Isildur's hand and betrayed him; then when a chance came it caught poor Deagol, and he was murdered; and after that Gollum, and it had devoured him. It could make no further use of him: he was too small and mean; and as long as it stayed with him he would never leave his deep pool again. So now, when it's master was wide awake once more and sending out his dark though from Mirkwood, it abandoned Gollum. Only to picked up by the most unlikely person imaginable: Bilbo Baggins from the Shire!'<hr></blockquote>

In this passage it is suggested that

a) The Ring had a mind of it's own

b) Sauron had some magical mmagnetic power that was drawing the Ring, by whatever means, to him

There is just too much evidence on both sides. I can't make up my mind whether it was Frodo or the Ring that spoke on Mount Mindolluin.

(Well done, Mithadan!)

Gwaihir the Windlord http://www.barrowdowns.comthe barrow-downs</A>
<FONT size="2.5">'Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor,
for the Realm of Sauron is ended for ever,
and the Dark Tower is thrown down.'
</p>

The Barrow-Wight
01-02-2001, 09:19 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Frodo or the Ring?

I don't see a prophecy here. It's just a threat. Frodo says &quot;Touch me again and I'm gonna toss you in the fire!&quot;

When I tell my kids &quot;Do that again and you're gonna get it!&quot;, I'm not prophecizing. I'm threatening and promising.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

Gwaihir the Windlord
01-02-2001, 09:45 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Frodo or the Ring?

Kind of a coincidence that Frodo's words were proven true, Wight. I think it was a prophecy or something similar. Frodo didn't 'toss him in the fire' -- he fell in out of his own clumsiness.

Gwaihir the Windlord http://www.barrowdowns.comthe barrow-downs</A>
<FONT size="2.5">'Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor,
for the Realm of Sauron is ended for ever,
and the Dark Tower is thrown down.'
</p>

Orald
01-03-2001, 12:02 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Frodo or the Ring?

Maybe not prophetic, but it still could have spoke. Gurthang spoke, and it was made by Eol, the Dark Elf of Nan Elmoth. The Ruling Ring could have been able to do something similar. Besides, listen to the words, does it sound like somthing Frodo would say?

</p>

The Barrow-Wight
01-03-2001, 12:26 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Frodo or the Ring?

As I mentioned above, it's almost exactly what Frodo said to Gollum in the Two Towers. So, yeah. It sounds like something Frodo would said.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

Mithadan
01-03-2001, 12:35 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Frodo or the Ring?

Agreed. The curse <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)"> is almost exactly what Frodo threatened Gollum with in Dagorlad.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

The Barrow-Wight
01-03-2001, 12:58 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Frodo or the Ring?

Actually, no one but Turin heard Gurthang speak. And that was as he used it to kill himself. So the whole idea of the sword talking is possibly just a mythical part of the history of Turin. Its more likely that this was added later in the many ages between the First Age and now.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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Saulotus
01-03-2001, 01:09 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Frodo or the Ring?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Some say it is Frodo speaking and others, holding that JRRT carefully selected his words, interpret the voice coming from the wheel of fire as the Ring itself speaking.<hr></blockquote>
How about another approach?
Does anyone realize that directly prior to this, Frodo's will had all but surrendered, and that the attack by Gollum is the catalyst that 'broke' his will, and when he truly 'claimed' the ring as his own in his heart?

Re-read the passage I'm talking about. Decide Then if it's Frodo speaking, the Ring Speaking, or Frodo finally by right of claim (instead of just bearer) is experiencing the first twinge of ring command and speaking with and through the power of the Ring.

</p>

as eowyn
01-03-2001, 02:02 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Hmm. . .

It's a little fritening but I think Saulotus is right. Frodo was speaking with the power of the ring, he was frightened and angry, hopeless and tired.

</p>

Mithadan
01-03-2001, 02:51 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Hmm. . .

Clearly, the power of the Ring is involved, possibly in varios levels (Sam's vision; the curse (if curse it be) and its fulfillment).

But if Frodo claimed the Ring at that point wouldn't Sauron have known? Perhaps more likely is that the Ring had overcome Frodo and his will was amplified by the Ring even if Frodo was not actively using it.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

Saulotus
01-03-2001, 03:44 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Hmm. . .

Ahhh I said in his heart.
He thinks of it as 'His' treasure in danger from Gollum, and goes into what for him would be a savage fury.

In the cracks of doom is where the claim is made 'official'. With the 'open' declaration, is when Sauron becomes aware.

Frodo was lost outside Mt.Doom, not inside.

</p>

Mister Underhill
01-03-2001, 04:55 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Hmm. . .

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> A wild light came into Frodo's eyes. &quot;Stand away! Don't touch me!&quot; he cried. &quot;It is mine, I say. Be off!&quot; His hand strayed to his sword-hilt.

--Frodo, when Sam offers to carry the Ring for him<hr></blockquote>Frodo laid claim to the Ring as his own long before Gollum's attack. I guess you might argue that he hadn't yet crossed that line &quot;in his heart&quot;, but I would still disagree. After the scene we're talking about, he trudges up to the Cracks of Doom, presumably still on his way to toss it into the fire. He only finally, ultimately succumbs at the very end of his quest. Are you claiming that he could use some measure of the power of the Ring without actually putting it on?

</p>

Saulotus
01-03-2001, 06:35 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Hmm. . .

True. But the question here is the ring and who\what spoke. Frodo still retained enough sense to hold back against striking out at Sam earlier.

Just prior to the ring incident that is being discussed, Frodo claims that he can no longer stop his own hands from grasping the ring.

Since quotes are used I suppose one wouldn't hurt here:
J.R.R. Tolkien
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Gollum and Frodo were locked together. Gollum was tearing at his master, trying to get at the chain and the Ring. This was probably the only thing that could have roused the dying embers of Frodo's heart and will: an attack, an attempt to wrest his treasure from him by force. He fought back with a sudden fury that amazed Sam, and Gollum also. &gt;&gt;Even so&lt;&lt; things might have gone far otherwise, if Gollum himself had remained unchanged...<hr></blockquote>
Then the contested situation regarding the Ring while grasping it (from which AFAIK he never again relinquishes it's touch until it's endgame with Gollum).

After the terrible words of Doom? Frodo is left gasping for breath, hand still on the ring. If it was the struggle that left him gasping, then how could he utter such powerful (read; commanding) words without aid? From the sound of the previous section, it's quite out of character for his physical condition as the 'Even so' attests to (and this was in full possessive fury). Face it, without calling upon some portion of the Ring, Frodo was toast.

As I said; it is at this point that Frodo truly lost, as he claimed the Ring finally in his heart, and made the claim openly inside Mt. Doom.
Gollum is his intended(?) redeemer.


</p>

Orald
01-04-2001, 12:29 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Hmm. . .

A rebuttle to the Barrow Wight's reply. It may seem like Frodo said it since he had said something similar in the Two Towers, but look at his choice of diction, would Frodo choose those words? I don't think so, and that is why I thought the ring spoke. Merely my opinion, but again I am almost certain Frodo wouldn't say it in such a way, so it was either the ring, or through its power that Frodo spoke.

</p>

Gwaihir the Windlord
01-04-2001, 02:13 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Essence of Darkness
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Hmm. . .

Frodo was wrathful and drew himself up to his full height when speaking to Gollum. I see no reason why he wouldn't have used those words. Frodo spoke rather different from other hobbits, I think you'll find, and with the Ring, yes, easily, D.

Gwaihir the Windlord http://www.barrowdowns.comthe barrow-downs</A>
<FONT size="2.5">'Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor,
for the Realm of Sauron is ended for ever,
and the Dark Tower is thrown down.'
</p>

Gwaihir the Windlord
01-04-2001, 02:20 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Hmm. . .

Frodo was wrathful and drew himself up to his full height when speaking to Gollum. I see no reason why he wouldn't have used those words. Frodo spoke rather different from other hobbits, I think you'll find, and with the Ring, yes, easily, D.
It may not have been speaking 'through' the Ring that made Frodo speak that way. The Ring may have lent Frodo some of it's power, or at least made him more powerful, so to speak; Frodo joined with the diction I'm sure the Ring would have used itself in such a situation.

In reply to Rk's post about Gurthang's talking being no more than a myth; I believe it did talk. Before it slew Beleg it's blade was silver like any other sword; after slaying Beleg, it's blade turned black in mourning (there is no doubt as to that). So it had a will and mind of it's own.

Gwaihir the Windlord http://www.barrowdowns.comthe barrow-downs</A>
<FONT size="2.5">'Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor,
for the Realm of Sauron is ended for ever,
and the Dark Tower is thrown down.'
</p>

The Barrow-Wight
01-04-2001, 01:45 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Hmm. . .

On the slopes of Mt. Doom, Frodo was still barely in control. Meaning he still intended to throw the Ring into the Fire. Else the journey to Sammath Naur would have been unneccessary. You could have put it on and claimed it at any time and at any location.

So when Gollum attacked him, Frodo was righteously angry (and oh so weary), and such words of anger were quite appropriate even if they were atypical of him.

Dang... I gotta go... I'll finish this later.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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Saulotus
01-04-2001, 03:22 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Hmm. . .

First let's examine the conditions of Ring use:
Galadriel explains the process to Frodo after the Mirror incident:
J.R.R. Tolkien
{Frodo speaks regarding the 3 Elven Rings}<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I am permitted to wear the One Ring: why cannot I see all the others and know the thoughts of those that wear them?
You have not tried, she said... Do not try! it would destroy you... Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to &gt;&gt;train your will to the domination of others&lt;&lt;.<hr></blockquote>
Frodo now has a clue about how to use the ring.

Now to the taming {read; will breaking) of Gollum:
While Gollum is attacking Sam, Frodo grabs his hair and forces him to look to the sky (accidentally at the moon?) and [1]threatens to slice his throat[/i]!
Gollum ends his attack. Then the debate on killing Gollum. Now Frodo hears {not remembers!} voices from the past (concerning what is to be the cryptic eventual fate of Gollum and stays his hand).
Frodo then essentialy begins to play both 'Good cop\Bad cop' with Gollum.
Then Frodo stares down Gollum (much as you would break the will of an animal) and begins to exert his dominance over Gollum, which surprises even Sam on it's frankness.
During the questioning, Gollum curiously reverts to referring to himself as 'I' and using 'We' as an afterthought.
&gt;&gt;The ring is not in use during this encounter.&lt;&lt;

Gollum is all but converted at this point, but Frodo now begins to reach for the Smeagol part of Gollum.
On Frodo's command to 'Get Up!' Gollum does so and backs to the edge of a cliff in response.
Frodo expects Gollum to attempt escape... and when he does so, it is then that conditions of the Ring use come into play.
Surprisingly it is Sam who is compassionate during the rope encounter.
Frodo uses the situation to bind Gollum to him through the Ring. Sam's 'Other Vision' only shows a Tall Stern Lord in place of Frodo {no ring of Fire}.
At Mt. Doom; Sam's 'Other Vision' shows the same image; now WITH the Ring of Fire. The claim has been made. Gollum's fate is sealed one way or the other should he approach Frodo again and declared with the power of the Ring.



</p>

Mister Underhill
01-05-2001, 01:28 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Hmm. . .

Saulotus, I'm having a hard time figuring out exactly what you're contending at this point. Are you saying that Frodo tapped some Ring power as early as the Taming of Smagol? Or that his (perhaps) inordinate mercilessness was caused by the Ring's controlling influence?

Certainly even at this early stage the Ring had begun to weigh on Frodo's mind -- as I and others have mentioned in unrelated threads, he couldn't even bring himself to toss it into the puny fire in his hearth in Bag End. On the other hand, Hobbits, and especially Bagginses, were known for being surprisingly fierce and resourceful in a pinch. Frodo was in a tight spot. He couldn't allow Gollum to keep following them; nor did he feel comfortable killing him outright, based in large part on his regard for Gandalf's wisdom. It was neccessary to psychologically bind Gollum in some way, so Frodo did what he had to do.

I still don't think that Frodo used any major Ring power at the foot of Mount Doom, either. He blusters at Gollum, but Gollum isn't really affected by it and doesn't have his will broken or bent to Frodo's wishes. Right after Frodo and Sam head up the mountain, Gollum follows. In fact, in the passage you highlighted in an earlier post, &quot;Even so things might have gone far otherwise...(etc.)&quot;, we get the sense that if Gollum wasn't so worn down and weakened by his years of trudging around and his more recent hardships, he would have just taken the Ring right away from Frodo even in spite of his sudden fury.

How about this for a theory: Ive always suspected that Gandalf knew more and had more of a hand in controlling far away events than he ever let on. What if it was Gandalf-power strengthening Frodo and causing Sams visions? The visions are certainly suggestive of Gandalf:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> In the first vision:

...a mighty lord who hid his brightness in grey cloud...

And in the second:

...a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire...<hr></blockquote>The timing is right Gandalf hadnt yet returned as Gandalf the White at the time of the first vision. And Gandalf wore Narya the Ring (need I remind you?) of Fire. Could it be the source of the wheel of fire in the vision?

Consider the other times Gandalf apparently intervened:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then as a flash from some other point of power there came to his mind another thought: Take it off! Take it off! Fool, take it off! Take off the Ring! The two powers strove in him. For a moment, perfectly balanced between their piercing points, he writhed, tormented.

It seemed to Frodo then that he heard, quite plainly but far off, voices out of the past... [followed by Gandalfs speech about Many that live deserve death] (At the critical moment when Gollums fate is being decided. I know this one might be reaching, but since you quoted it yourself as seeming to come from outside of Frodo, Saul, I use it here. Frodo even answers aloud, Very well., after Gandalf finishes speaking.)

...Gandalf stood amid the ruin of Isengard and strove with Saruman, delayed by treason. Yet even as he spoke his last words to Saruman, and the palantr crashed in fire upon the steps of Orthanc, his thought was ever upon Frodo and Samwise, over the long leagues his mind sought for them in hope and pity. Maybe Frodo felt it, not knowing it, as he had upon Amon Hen, even though he believed that Gandalf was gone, gone for ever into the shadow in Moria far away... (True, Gandalf apparently isnt able to give much guidance on this occasion, but still... the wording suggests that maybe he is able after all.)<hr></blockquote>

Frodos words to Gollum at the foot of Mount Doom sound more like something Gandalf would say (Begone! he says to the Mouth of Sauron at around the same time before the Morannon) than something the Ring would say. Hows that for a theory?

Geez, I wrote a book!





</p>

Mithadan
01-05-2001, 08:13 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Hmm. . .

Nope. Just an article. <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

Interesting argument re: Gandalf. However I don't think Gandalf would threaten to throw Gollum into the Cracks of Doom (or curse him).

Let's use Occam's Razor. When faced with several possibilities, the simplest is likely correct. Starting with the Gandalf theory, undoubtedly Gandalf was able to &quot;sense&quot; Frodo and his dilemna on the Hill of Seeing and contact him with good advise or attempt to influence his actions. But in the other two examples, Frodo didn't have the Ring on. Also, when Gandalf found that Frodo and co. were heading for Cirith Ungol, he did not or could not contact him to warn him away from that dangerous place. Finally, while Gandalf was able to contact or influence Frodo after the breaking of the Fellowship, this is a far cry from vesting Frodo with power from a distance; power to throw off Gollum despite physical weakness and clothe him in a vision.

The Ring spoke - well, it had never spoken previously and certainly had opportunity and cause to do so (&quot;Hey Lord of the Ringwraiths! I'm here! In Morgul Vale! 100 meters to your left! Take your army and come and get me!&quot;). Other examples of inanimate objects speaking are uncertain and possibly mythical in nature (Gurthang speaking to Turin with no witnesses; the troll's purse warning its owner of Bilbo).

Frodo spoke - He used language similar to words he used previously. The presence of the Ring is known to create visual effects (Sam clothed in shadow and looking like a great warrior in the tower above Cirith Ungol). The Ring is known to have heavily impacted Frodo's mental state and its power is to corrupt (thus the language or curse used by Frodo). Finally, the Ring, especially near its origin, was powerful and taking hold of Frodo.

Simplest explanation: Frodo spoke under the heavy influence of the power of the Ring.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

Mister Underhill
01-05-2001, 09:39 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Hmm. . .

Just to push it a little further...

Is the Ring indeed the source of Sam's vision? Here's the passage you mentioned about Sam's fantasies:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> His thought turned to the Ring, but there was no comfort there, only dread and danger. No sooner had he come in sight of Mount Doom, burning far away, than he was aware of a change in his burden. As it drew near the great furnaces where, in the deeps of time, it had been shaped and forged, the
Ring's power grew, and it became more fell, untameable save by some mighty will.<hr></blockquote>Sam senses a change in the Ring when he comes within sight of Mt. Doom. He feels its power grow, and it is at this point that he has fantasies of becoming Samwise the Strong, Hero of the Age. But when he has his first vision, they are leagues away from Mordor and Mt. Doom.

Also, if he Ring is the source of the visions, then what is the significance of the imagery? Why the lord who hid his brightness in grey cloud the first time and the figure robed in white the next?

Here's the first thing Sam saw when he woke up in Ithilien: &quot;...Gandalf stood before him, robed in white...&quot;

And for one final thought: Mithadan, if I recall aright, we both more or less agreed in another thread that Gandalf knew even before the quest began that Frodo never really had any hope of throwing the Ring into the fire. How then are we to explain him going along with the scheme of sending it to Mordor? Did he trust to mere blind luck? Did he simply have faith that Good would triumph over Evil? Or did he have a little extra insurance that he planned to use to help make things come out right?

</p>

Mithadan
01-05-2001, 10:27 AM
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Re: Hmm. . .

Re: your last paragraph, do you mean Frodo or Gandalf? If Frodo, he was good intentioned and faithful to the &quot;cause&quot; of destroying the Ring, at least in theory. I don't think he ever considered how the Ring would affect him as time passed or about how he would let go of it. He was fundamentally good and feared Sauron and the evil he would work with the Ring. His choice to bear the Ring in face of nearly inconceivable adversity was heroic in the extreme. He knew the task would be nearly impossible and trusted Gandalf's advice, and in doing so relied upon faith, perhaps even more than courage.

If you refer to Gandalf, he had no choice. Carrying the Ring to its destruction was the only option even if it was fundamentally hopeless. I have never resolved the questions of how he intended to enter Mordor or how he would get Frodo to relinquish the Ring, however I suspect that he provided companions to assist in the latter, not anticipating the disintigration of the Fellowship above Rauros.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

Mister Underhill
01-05-2001, 11:34 AM
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Re: Hmm. . .

I agree completely with your assessment of Frodo's motivations. I was indeed referring to Gandalf.

Here's more fuel for the fire:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> At the Council of Elrond:
At last with an effort he [Frodo] spoke, and wondered to hear his own words, as if some other will was using his small voice. &quot;I will take the Ring,&quot; he said, &quot;though I do not know the way.&quot;

And later, when the Hobbits are discussing the information revealed at the Council, Gandalf says this:
&quot;If you want to know, the only real eye-openers, as you put it, were you [Bilbo] and Frodo; and I was the only one that was not surprised.&quot;<hr></blockquote>When Elrond assembles the Fellowship, it's quite clear that most of them won't be going all the way to the Fire with Frodo. Aragorn and Boromir will split off for Minas Tirith. Legolas and Gimli &quot;are willing to go at least to the passes of the Mountains, and maybe beyond.&quot; Did Gandalf plan to go the whole way? Unlikely. He wasn't even completely sure at first that he would set out with the Fellowship:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;I only said I think I shall come. Do not count on anything yet.&quot;<hr></blockquote> In any case, I think he knew that if he personally came with the Ring to Mordor, the temptation to use it would be too great. Look at his violent reaction in Bag End:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;No!&quot; cried Gandalf, springing to his feet. &quot;With that power I should have power too great and terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a power still greater and more deadly.&quot; His eyes flashed and his face was lit as by a fire within. &quot;Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself. Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good. Do not tempt me! I dare not take it, not even to keep it safe, unused. The wish to wield it would be too great for my strength. I shall have such need of it. Great perils lie before me.&quot;<hr></blockquote>I agree that Gandalf had ideas on how the Ring might ultimately be delivered into the Fire... and that's what I'm talking about.


</p>

HerenIstarion
01-06-2001, 05:30 PM
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Posts: 306

Ok, here is lot of stuff that requires some commentary :)

Let the game begin:

1. Visions seen by Sam

First of all, they could not have been created by Gandalf, nor represent Gandalf. As an evidence may be used episode at Rauros - Gandalf's ability's maximum was a voice than, not a vision.

As for hte forms they took
he couldn't even bring himself to toss it into the puny fire in his hearth in Bag End.


Sam's 'Other Vision' only shows a Tall Stern Lord in place of Frodo

Is not it obvious that Frodo changed while on his way to Mordor? Hobbit not daring to throw ring into the hearth and one unable to toss it into the Cracks of Doom are different persons. Even Sharku afterwords noticed that, saying something like you became wise, halfling, and cruel! Instead of cruel one may well place strong willed for it is said by an enemy, and not as a compliment.

Why the lord who hid his brightness in grey cloud the first time and the figure robed in white the next?

Among colours of the vision, the grey one appears before hobbits cross Mordor's frontiere, another one (white and the wheel of fire) after. If the ring changed, became heavier and mightier, why should visions caused by it stay the same? And, despite all, on the backround of the apparently dark land hobbit of the good will seemed radiant, of course, even if he himself looked grey in the place not so corrupted (both, corruption and coulors of the visions are meant in spiritual way - Ithilien, if corrupted by orcs phisycally, was still free of Sauron's will)

So, shortly speaking, visions were made up by the ring, but stuff used to build them up was Frodo himself, for inside he really became Tall Stern Lord despite that his body remained that of a halfling.

2. Sam as a vision

General conclusion is the same as above, only that here Sam the Magnificent was not a person really in existance, but a might-have-been, probabale future used to tempt Sam, not expressing his inner reality

3. Oh those nihilist wizards :rolleyes:

Gandalf knew even before the quest began that Frodo never really had any hope of throwing the Ring into the fire. How then are we to explain him going along with the scheme of sending it to Mordor? Did he trust to mere blind luck? Did he simply have faith that Good would triumph over Evil? Or did he have a little extra insurance that he planned to use to help make things come out right?


The answer was givenon the thread, but passed unnoticed:

'It is no laughing matter,' said Gandalf. 'Not for you. It was the strangest event in the whole history of the Ring so far: Bilbo's arrival just at that time, and putting his hand on it, blindly, in the dark.
'There was more than power at work, Frodo. The Ring was trying to get back to it's master. It had slupped from Isildur's hand and betrayed him; then when a chance came it caught poor Deagol, and he was murdered; and after that Gollum, and it had devoured him. It could make no further use of him: he was too small and mean; and as long as it stayed with him he would never leave his deep pool again. So now, when it's master was wide awake once more and sending out his dark though from Mirkwood, it abandoned Gollum. Only to picked up by the most unlikely person imaginable: Bilbo Baggins from the Shire!'

Following that, Gandalf adds that therefore, both, Bilbo and Frodo were meant to be ring-bearers. Meant by whom? Not the Valar, (for, if they knew the location of the ring, why not to inform their emissaries (i.e. among others Ganalf, to go and pick it up in due time. why bother themselves arranging such a cat's cradle, involving a wizard, 13 dwarves and a most unlikely person as a halfling may be?) evidently, but Eru himself. Therefore, Gandalf, as well as Frodo (as was stated by Mithadan, if I am not mistaken) was relying on faith rather than on his wisdom or courage, and that is, in a way. also answer why only he among all the Istari is named by JRRT as one who failed not.

as if some other will was using his small voice. I will take the Ring, he said, though I do not know the way

Here's another textual evidence (it was already stated that JRRT carefully chose his words)

(c.f. Tuor used as a michrophone by Ulmo)

4. Who spoke

At least turning to the titular topic.

It was Frodo who spoke, and all the arguments (i e never talking before and so on) are admitted. Only a bit of comment here too:

Frodo was using a ring as well as Ring was using him. There is more than one direction in the matter. Any thing affected affects in return. As well as the Ring left it's mark on every of it's bearers, all of those left their marks on the ring. Frodo (on that occasion) used it's power to restrain Gollum, which is another part of his becoming stern tall lord - one able to control the ring in a measure, not only dissapear when uninvited visitors (money-borrowers) knocked at the front door

...but what they are really like, and what lies beyond them, only those can say who have climbed them.

Mister Underhill
01-09-2001, 03:01 PM
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Re: Hmm. . .

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> As an evidence may be used episode at Rauros - Gandalf's ability's maximum was a voice than, not a vision.<hr></blockquote>Ah, but since there were no bystanders to observe this incident, we can't say that for sure. In the incidences of visions cited, Sam, a bystander, sees the visions, not Frodo.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Is not it obvious that Frodo changed while on his way to Mordor? Hobbit not daring to throw ring into the hearth and one unable to toss it into the Cracks of Doom are different persons. <hr></blockquote>Frodo's daring or courage is not at issue -- he couldn't throw the Ring into the fire in Bag End because of the influence the Ring had already gained over him. To be sure, Frodo changed and grew during his journey. I'm suggesting, however, that Gandalf didn't expect or plan for Frodo to transform to such an extent that he would be able to throw the Ring into the Cracks of Doom, where the power of the Ring to overcome the will of its bearer would be immeasurably greater. And indeed, at the critical moment, he wasn't able.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> On the backround of the apparently &quot;black&quot; land hobbit of the good will seemed white, of course, even if he himself looked grey in the place not so corrupted (both, corruption and coulors of the visions are meant in spiritual way - Ithilien, if corrupted by orcs phisycally, was still free of Sauron's will)
So, shortly speaking, visions were made up by the ring, but stuff used to build them up was Frodo himself, for inside he really became &quot;Tall Stern Lord&quot; despite that his body remained that of a halfling.<hr></blockquote>If I read this correctly, then I think I disagree. Are you saying that the Ring showed Frodo in each vision as he truly was? In Ithilien, a power cloaked in grey whose full glory had not yet been revealed, then later, at Mt. Doom, as a fully matured Frodo? I don't buy it. For starters, Frodo is less in control of his own will at Mt. Doom than he is in Ithilien. After he pronounces his curse/threat on Gollum, he seems to snap out of daze, as if he was momentarily not in control of himself.

Doesn't it seem more than mere coincidence that the imagery of the visions parallels the imagery reflecting Gandalf's evolution?<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Therefore, Gandalf, as well as Frodo (as was stated by Mithadan, if I am not mistaken) was relying on faith rather than on his wisdom or courage, and that is, in a way. <hr></blockquote>This may be true. Perhaps Eru is the one working things from behind the scenes. But then why does Gandalf say he was not surprised by Frodo at the Council? <blockquote>Quote:<hr> Frodo (on that occasion) used it's power to restrain Gollum, which is another part of his becoming stern tall lord - one able to control the ring in a measure, not only dessapear when uninvited visitors (money-borrowers) knocked at hte front door<hr></blockquote>I still dispute the notion that Frodo used the Ring's power on either occasion. Gollum is cowed in each case but not broken or dominated.

</p>

Mithadan
01-09-2001, 03:57 PM
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Re: Hmm. . .

Hmmmm indeed. Are you suggesting that the Ring played no part in either event despite the similarities in the statements made by Frodo, the &quot;out of character&quot; nature of Frodo's words and demeanor, and the fact that these also happen to be the only occaisions when Sam had such visions of Frodo? Add to that the fact that Gollum promptly did exactly what Frodo said would happen to him if Gollum touched him again and that the orcs of the Tower had similar visions of Sam when he was holding the Ring and I suggest we have a fairly strong circumstantial case favoring the Ring's involvement.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

HerenIstarion
01-10-2001, 02:16 PM
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Posts: 313


Are you suggesting that the Ring played no part in either event despite the similarities in the statements made by Frodo, the out of character nature of Frodo's words and demeanor

Not, I am not, though I mean that those visions are possible because one who appears in those is fit for a vision - meaning he has some inner potency for that, which is strenghtened by the Ring

If I read this correctly, then I think I disagree. Are you saying that the Ring showed Frodo in each vision as he truly was

The same answer as above - not wholly was, but had inside himself the grains of such a lord. The thing that attracted me to ME in the first place, was it's reality - the are no monotype individualities, and any can show himself a fool and a king, a warrior and a coward at the same time. Frodo was a small and weak halfling, and wise and great lord at the same time and spot. Who is more intriguing than Gollum near tha end?

the orcs of the Tower had similar visions of Sam

So what? - Sam proves himself to be one of the strongest (not physically, of course) persons known in history of ME, even if he is not smart (I don't say not wise, for he is at least, half-wise ;). In one of his letters JRRT even names him 'jewel among hobbits'

He fits in for a role of a Tall Stern Lord as well. Gollum with the Ring shows no sign of lordliness at all.

these also happen to be the only occaisions when Sam had such visions of Frodo?

Yes, of course those are only occassions - the effect is due to the Ring, and in the tight corner, when will and emotion are involved together, though visions come about because material used is good

Add to that the fact that Gollum promptly did exactly what Frodo said would happen to him if Gollum touched him again <

That can't be presented as a proof - when fighting on the brink of an abyss, one of the fighters has all the fair chances of falling into it. Still more if speaker, one of those fighters-to-be, knows beforehand that his destination lies near above named crack. After all, Galadriel states that Frodo's sight has sharpened, so his curse/treat may be classified more as a prophecy than as a result of sudden fury and malice (or, more likely, as a result of both of those factors). The Ring playd it's part in that, of course


But it cannot be hidden from the Ring-bearer, and one who has seen the Eye

says Galadriel about Frodo, though, that implies not that any one bearing the ring rises in wisdom and foreseeing. I'm making to the point - Frodo using the Ring grew, not any other, even Bilbo, not mentioning Gollum, who, despite he was tied up with it for ages, never shown any sign of power. There really is a reason - Frodo via Bilbo was meant to be the ring-bearer, therefore he was best possible choice, one who fitted in for a task, which was indeed planned by Eru, who shows behind all scenes

And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secre of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of hte whole and tributary to it's glory

which is applied to Sauron as well.

And in my turn, I don't buy in Gandlaf as a vision in Cirith Ungol. Main reason - wizard, who was always prohibiting any employement of the Ring, never, ever, even in safer situations than that on the border of Mordor, would not (even if he could, which I doubt) support such a foolish thing, even if it proved good in the long run (the goodness of the result, again, I doubt).

Episode at the parting of the fellowship, which I used as an argument, can be considered from above-postulated point of view also: Gandalf's voice (even not evidenced by no one else than Frodo to be 'voice' and not a 'vision') is desperately fighting to make Frod put the ring off, while the visions of cloaked figures and wheels of fire appear with the intention of using Ring's powers showing no signs of discomfort in a fact (which surely Gandalf would feel) of wearing/bearing (with intention to use) Enemy's greatest weapon (in fact part of the Enemy himself) so near his land

...less doth yearning trouble him who knoweth many songs, or with his hands can touch the harp - his possesion is his gift of glee which God gave him...

Edited by: HerenIstarion at: 1/10/01 3:48:37 pm

Mithadan
01-10-2001, 02:48 PM
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Re: Hmm. . .

Frodo grew in power as he bore the Ring? No, say rather that he grew in wisdom and will as he bore it. The Ring on the other hand grew in influence as it approached its point of origin and the home of its Master. As it approached Mordor, it responded to its master searching for it and its master's will. Frodo grew increasingly subject to its power and influence as well. Thus, when Gollum suggests he give up the Ring and return it to Gollum, the Ring's influence and power manifest in Frodo's uncharacteristically unpleasant response. That Gollum will never get it back and if he does not obey Frodo, Frodo will take the Ring and have Gollum throw himself into the fire and that Gollum, bound to the Ring by his oath, will not be able to resist. Do not underestimate the power of an oath in Middle Earth/Arda. Recall what happens to Feanor and his sons and the men of Dunharrow.

On Orodruin the same event occurs and the power of the Ring over Frodo again manifests itself. But this time, Frodo goes an additional step and says if Gollum touches him again he will be thrown into the Cracks of Doom. Gollum attacks Frodo and falls into the Cracks. In each case, the manifestation of the Ring's power and influence manifests itself in the form of visions. In each case at issue is Frodo giving up the Ring. I use the word &quot;curse&quot; above. Perhaps it is wrong to use that word. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say Gollum's oath and his breach of the oath result in his death, and the destruction of the Ring. The power of the oath is supported by the power of the Ring and thus the power of Sauron.

To suggest that Frodo by bearing Sauron's Ring became more powerful is wrong, particularly if it is to be inferred that Frodo's power was for good. The Ring, as its maker, was utterly and completely evil. If Frodo believed his power had increased, as did Sam when he briefly carried the Ring, it was a delusion caused by the Ring.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

HerenIstarion
01-11-2001, 12:31 PM
Shade of Carn Dm
Posts: 315


Maybe I was using wrong vocabulary :)


By power was meant 'power of will', and it seemed word fitting in, the power to resist ever growing influence of the Ring, which is understood to be naturally growing as well. But I doubt you saw my main point:

Frodo's 'strange' behavior and reaction was due to the Ring, but not only. I was intending to say that reactions of any given ring-bearer would not be the same, but different, unique, though the circumstances and ring's influence be the same. Frodo reacted as he reacted because he was Frodo, and no one else.

But as I'll try not to underestimate the power of an oath, don't you overestimate those as well. It is not correct to compare Feanor and his sons with Gollum. Gollum sweared under fear of death, unwillingly. (I can well imagine him crossing his fingers behind his back :rolleyes: ). It's too straight - don't do this, lest that (and exactly and precisely that) befall you!

Tolkien's world is full of strange chances, which, when all ends are cleared up, prove to be no chances at all, but not by mortals, and not even by 'immortals' are those planned.


...less doth yearning trouble him who knoweth many songs, or with his hands can touch the harp - his possesion is his gift of glee which God gave him...[i]

Mithadan
01-11-2001, 01:14 PM
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Re: Hmm. . .

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ...reactions of any given ring-bearers would not be the same, but different, unique, though the circumstances and ring's influence be the same... <hr></blockquote>

Good point, and one worthy of discussion. If you are not inclined to, I'll start a thread on it. I'll wait and give you first crack though. <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)"> However, considering what prompted Frodo's outbursts, a demand for or threat to the Ring, I suggest that any Ringbearers' response would at least be similar if not varying in degree. Sauron likely would have fried Gollum where he stood, Sam's reaction would, at first, have been less tolerant.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Gollum sweared under fear of death, unwillingly. <hr></blockquote>

And Feanor's sons swore out of the heat of the moment without a second's thought or consideration of the consequences. Perhaps a serious oath is and oath, particularly when sworn to a power.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> maybe I was using the wrong vocabulary <hr></blockquote>

Your english is improving steadily and remarkably. Your post helped me to organize and crystallize my thoughts.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

Mister Underhill
01-12-2001, 01:09 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/narya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Hmm. . .

Though I haven't had much time for lengthy posts of late, I have been keeping an eye on this and other discussions.

I'd forgotten about the vision the orc sees of Sam in the tower. That does seem a bit troublesome for my theory. I might argue that there's really no way for Frodo (as author of the Red Books from which LotR is derived) to know what the orc saw; this may just be supposition on his part. Or perhaps it's what Sam thinks the orc saw, or how Sam saw himself in that moment. Okay, I admit, my theory is becoming increasingly untenable, but I feel there are aspects of it which might bear being pushed a bit further:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> When Sam is near the Tower of Cirith Ungol:

Out westward in the world it was drawing to noon upon the fourteenth day of March in the Shire-reckoning. And even now Aragorn was leading the black fleet from Pelargir, and Merry was riding with the Rohirrim down the Stonewain Valley, while in Minas Tirith flames were rising
and Pippin watched the madness growing in the eyes of Denethor. Yet amid all their cares and fear the thoughts of their friends turned constantly to Frodo and Sam. They were not forgotten. But they were far beyond aid, and no thought could yet bring any help to Samwise Hamfast's son; he was utterly alone.<hr></blockquote>I may be reaching here, but I notice that Gandalf is conspicuously absent from this list, perhaps implying that Sam and Frodo are not beyond his aid.

In &quot;The Istari&quot; in UT, there's an implication that Gandalf might actually be a manifestation of Manw himself. To be sure, in the same paragraph the narrator remarks, &quot;But I think it was not so.&quot; However, he brings up the idea himself, and does not unequivocally deny that it may be true &quot;I do not (of course) know the truth of the matter, and if I did it would be a mistake to be more explicit than Gandalf was.&quot; Olrin in this scenario would be a mere incognito adopted by Manw. On the next page theres an extensive discussion of the etymology of Olrin. Its a bit confusing, but seems in ways to support the idea that Gandalf could indeed have produced the visions. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> Olor is a word often translated as dream, but that doe not refer to (most) human dreams, certainly not the dreams of sleep. To the Eldar it included the vivid contents of their memory, as of their imagination, the mind, of things not physically present at the bodys situation. But not only to an idea, but to a full clothing of this in particular form and detail.

olo-s) made visible and sensible. Olos is usually applied to fair constructions having solely an artistic object (i.e., not having the object of deception, or of acquiring power).

These discussions of olos, olor are clearly connected with the passage in the Valaquenta where it is said that Olrin dwelt in Lrien in Valinor, and that

though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts.<hr></blockquote>

Manw was concerned with redressing the ancient wrongs of attempting to guard and seclude the Eldar by their [the Valars] own might and glory fully revealed, and so decided that the emissaries sent to Middle-earth should assume shapes weak and humble. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> Thus by enduring of free will the pangs of exile and the deceits of Sauron they might redress the evils of that time.<hr></blockquote> Is it not possible that Manw came himself to personally redress the wrongs for which he had principally been responsible? Though Olrin seemed at first glance to be the least of the Istari, he was perceived immediately by Cirdan as the most powerful of them, and Saruman also soon realized that Olrin had the greater power.

There are dozens of spots where JRRT coyly implies that Gandalf had foreknowledge of the role Hobbits would play in the grand scheme. Gandalf says to Frodo at one point:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;About their origins... I know more than hobbits do themselves.&quot;<hr></blockquote> Is it possible that Hobbits were created specifically so that one day they could play a pivotal role in Saurons overthrow?

The most explicit references to Gandalf arranging the events that occurred are made in UT, in The Quest of Erebor. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then looking hard at Gandalf he [Gimli] went on: But who wove the web? I do not think I have ever considered that before. Did you plan all this then, Gandalf?...<hr></blockquote>After Gimlis questioning, Gandalf doesnt reply for a long time, and then when he does, his answer is cryptic and evasive. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> ...what I knew in my heart, or knew before I stepped on these grey shores: that is another matter. Olrin I was in the West that is forgotten, and only to those who are there shall I speak more openly.

And at the end of another version:

[Gimli says:] I do not really suppose that even now you are telling us all you know. [to which Gandalf replies:] Of course not.<hr></blockquote>

A bit of a disjointed and rambling post, and Im not sure how (or if) it addresses some of the points that have been made but there it is. Some thoughts to chew on.


</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> at: 1/12/01 2:15:24 pm

Mithadan
01-12-2001, 01:40 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 488</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Hmm. . .

Oooooooooooooo.

Nasty hobbit. Tricksy. This also should be a thread all to itself. Should be? Sir Underhill, you MUST do so. I can hear the swords being sharpened even as I type.

Let's see now. Bombadil is Iluvatar....no, no, Bombadil is Aule....wait, no Gandalf is Olorin....hold it, Gandalf is Manwe.....Beorn is Radagast....(stops short of becoming offensively sarcastic). Seriously, start a thread, this is your idea, run with it.

Staying on topic, lets assume Gandalf could project his power, will, what have you, to Mount Doom. Isn't Frodo's outburst uncharacteristic even for Gandalf? And why would Gandalf threaten to kill Gollum? And since we know any exercise of power takes some toll (when Gandalf reached out to Frodo while Frodo wore the Ring on the Seat of Seeing it exhausted him), why waste strength to project to Frodo while he was in Ithilien admonishing Gollum for his comment about Frodo giving him the Ring? And, again, if this were possible, why not warn Frodo about Minas Morgul and Cirith Ungol? One more, until Faramir returned from Ithilien days after meeting Frodo, Gandalf did not know Gollum was Frodo's guide, so how could he speak through Frodo to Gollum before then.

Re: Gandalf/Manwe, I'll wait for you to start the thread. It should generate some interesting discussion.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

HerenIstarion
01-12-2001, 02:46 PM
Shade of Carn Dm
Posts: 318

If you are not inclined to, I'll start a thread on it.

Yes, of course, no retorts

Your english is improving steadily and remarkably

Thank you :)

*bows*


Its a bit confusing, but seems in ways to support the idea that Gandalf could indeed have produced the visions.

If I remember correctly, Olorin used to walk among elves unseen(=not clothed in a bodily form). As Gandalf, he becomes complete incarnate, and, obviously, is less potent in creating visions (if he still retains such power, for what there is small evidence, if any) (is shaft of light in Theoden's hall a vision?). And , after all, word among must be underlined - even as a pure spirit Olorin needed to be near those whom he enchanted with his visions.


...less doth yearning trouble him who knoweth many songs, or with his hands can touch the harp - his possesion is his gift of glee which God gave him...

Mister Underhill
01-12-2001, 03:03 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dm
Posts: 296</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Frodo or the Ring?

Several points here, though no time for another article-length reply.

a.) It is never explicitly stated that Faramir's news was the first time Gandalf learned that Frodo was following Gollum's lead. Also, his remarks to Pippin later echo what Frodo said to Gollum when he made him swear by the Ring (more on this later).

b.) Look again more closely, HI. &quot;...or in form as one of them...&quot; Also, it is faulty logic to assume that he was only able to inspire visions and wisdom while near them.

c.) The wording suggests that Gandalf possibly did manage to provide at least a little bit of help to Frodo in the case cited, Mith: &quot;Maybe Frodo felt it, not knowing it, as he had upon Amon Hen...&quot;

d.) The visions don't happen at just any old time. They come at critical junctures, when Frodo binds Gollum by his oath to the Ring, then again when Frodo needs to &quot;stun&quot; Gollum and buy time to head up to the Cracks of Doom.

Do you think it's worth it to start another thread? All the arguments (long ones, that I am not inclined to retype) are found here already. I'll do it if you insist, but why not let the thread evolve?

</p>

HerenIstarion
01-12-2001, 03:13 PM
Shade of Carn Dm
Posts: 324

or in form as one of them

yet whithout any restrictions to his power, as he had in a form of Gandalf

...less doth yearning trouble him who knoweth many songs, or with his hands can touch the harp - his possesion is his gift of glee which God gave him...

Mister Underhill
01-12-2001, 03:37 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dm
Posts: 299</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Frodo or the Ring?

This whole &quot;restrictions of power&quot; thing is too convenient of an argument. What powers were the Istari allowed to display? Just using their staffs for lightbulbs, conjuring a bit of fire here and there, opening doors and such? I still maintain that the so-called &quot;restrictions&quot; were more of an ethical/moral nature. From UT:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ...their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men or Elves by open display of power...<hr></blockquote>Gandalf clearly was wielding his own power and the power of the ring he bore, though not openly and in such a way as to inspire fear or worship in the people he was sent to help.

</p>

The Barrow-Wight
01-12-2001, 03:38 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1725</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Frodo or the Ring?

Gandalf was also often concerned about giving his location (and thus possibly his purpose) away with the use of his power.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

Mister Underhill
01-12-2001, 04:38 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dm
Posts: 307</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Frodo or the Ring?

Upon closer inspection, Gandalf seems to have been eagerly awaiting Faramir's return, presumably so that he could learn some firsthand news about Frodo and the Ring.

</p>

The Barrow-Wight
01-12-2001, 04:48 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1727</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Frodo or the Ring?

I was refering to Gandalf's use of his power, not the location and purpose of Frodo. I was supporting your previous statement.


The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000002>RKittle</A>&nbsp; <IMG SRC=http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/oneringicon.gif BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 1/12/01 5:50:44 pm

Mister Underhill
01-12-2001, 04:52 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dm
Posts: 309</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Frodo or the Ring?

Yes, sorry. My comment was aimed at Mithadan and used to back up my assertion that Faramir wasn't springing anything new on the G-man by telling him about Gollum &amp; Frodo. Let there be peace between Underhill and the Wight (at least in this thread... today... for a few minutes). <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

</p>

Mithadan
01-15-2001, 02:47 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 493</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Frodo or the Ring?

Gandalf was not waiting for Faramir to return with news of Frodo, but rather for information regarding movements of the Enemy and out of concern for Faramir, both as on a personal level, as well as from the perspective of wanting a great captain to assist in the upcoming battle. He was utterly surprised to find that Faramir had run into &quot;another halfling&quot;.

Gandalf as Manwe? Highly doubtful. Gandalf was Manwe's &quot;Steward&quot; in Middle Earth for Manwe, the &quot;king&quot; of Arda. Manwe was lord of the winds. Could he not have deflected the snowstorm from the Redhorn Pass? Could the Balrog have slain Manwe? What of JRRT's writings concerning the need to &quot;increase&quot; Gandalf's power upon his return to Middle Earth? Would Manwe need such an increase in power? I could continue along this vein, but will not.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

Mister Underhill
01-16-2001, 10:36 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dm
Posts: 316</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Frodo or the Ring?

I think the nutty theory of Gandalf as Manw is distinguished -- and elevated -- from hypothetical ramblings like Bombadil = Eru in this way: it is a possibility suggested by the prof himself.

Now, let me clarify. This is just a theory I'm testing out -- I'm not even sure I believe it myself. I'm defending a rather outrageous notion for the sake of stimulating conversation, and also because the idea seems to contain at least a germ of the truth. However, please feel free to abandon the thread if my boorish suggestions are neither stimulating nor intriguing, but only offensive to the sensibilities of a more informed Tolkien scholar.

Having said all that, I will offer a brief rebuttal if I may.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The board is set, and the pieces are moving. One piece that I greatly desire to find is Faramir, now the heir of Denethor.

In the night he [Pippin] was wakened by a light, and he saw that Gandalf had come and was pacing to and fro in the room beyond the curtain of the alcove. There were candles on the table and rolls of parchment. He heard the wizard sigh, and mutter: &quot;When will Faramir return?&quot;<hr></blockquote>
Gandalf seems unusually anxious for Faramir to return. I think we can discount personal concern as the reason for his eagerness. Gandalf had a fondness for Faramir, to be sure, but here's a key attribute of Gandalf's personality: he's not sentimental. His concern for his friends doesn't keep him from sending them into battle or cause him to fret over them when they may be in danger. Gandalf sounds like Faramir's girlfriend if he's only hoping he comes back so that he'll know he's safe.

As to &quot;wanting information regarding movements of the Enemy&quot;... I don't think that accounts for his eagerness either. Look -- he seems almost to doze through Faramir's accounts of military matters, which seem in any case of little interest:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Removed a little upon the other side sat Gandalf in a chair of carven wood; and he seemed at first to be asleep. For at the beginning Faramir spoke only of the errand upon which he had been sent out ten days before, and he brought tidings of Ithilien and of movements of the Enemy and his allies; and he told of the fight on the road when the men of Harad and their great beast were overthrown: a captain reporting to his master such matters as had often been heard before, small things of border-war that now seemed useless and petty, shorn of their renown.<hr></blockquote>Are these &quot;small things of border-war&quot; the information that Gandalf has been staying up late pacing in his room hoping to hear? No. And he sits up and grips the arms of his chair, I might argue (I have), not out of &quot;utter surprise&quot; but because Faramir has finally gotten to the part that he's been eagerly hoping to hear about.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Gandalf as Manwe? Highly doubtful. Gandalf was Manwe's &quot;Steward&quot; in Middle Earth for Manwe, the &quot;king&quot; of Arda.<hr></blockquote>But is not Manw Ilvatar's steward in Arda? This gives interesting possibilities of meaning to Gandalf's line to Denethor: &quot;For I also am a steward. Did you not know?&quot; <blockquote>Quote:<hr> Manwe was lord of the winds. Could he not have deflected the snowstorm from the Redhorn Pass?<hr></blockquote>Maybe. But remember that it turned out to be necessary to pass through Moria to pick up Gollum. As to Manw being the lord of the winds, remember this, from Silm: <blockquote>Quote:<hr> All swift birds, strong of wing, he loves, and they come and go at his bidding.<hr></blockquote>Who's always hitching a ride from eagles? That's right -- the G-man!<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Could the Balrog have slain Manwe?<hr></blockquote>As has been pointed out innumerable times, Gandalf was only figuratively &quot;slain&quot; by the Balrog. Having taken on human form and self-imposed limitations on how much power he could exhibit, I think it's entirely conceivable that Manw/Gandalf could have been slain by the Balrog.<blockquote>Quote:<hr> What of JRRT's writings concerning the need to &quot;increase&quot; Gandalf's power upon his return to Middle Earth? Would Manwe need such an increase in power?<hr></blockquote>But &quot;increased&quot; by whom? And sent back after &quot;death&quot; by whom? Not the Valar. In the Gandalf=Manw scenario, Gandalf becomes even more of a Christ-like figure than I argued he might be in a previous thread. Ilvatar's favorite son, sent to earth, his power and glory veiled in a humble aspect... I'm still of the mind, and haven't yet heard convincing arguments to the contrary, that the restraints on the power of Gandalf weren't &quot;real&quot; restraints, like some kind of spiritual restraining-bolt, but were more like a sort of &quot;code of honor&quot;. Manw had seen before that attempting to sway the people of M-E by force and displays of power and majesty had only resulted in great sorrow. So he returned with a revised agenda and modus operandi, as I have quoted above in a previous post. After his &quot;death&quot;, Ilvatar picked him up, dusted him off, and sent him back with the go-ahead to reveal a little more of the power that had previously been kept hidden.

Okay. So it wasn't so brief.


</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> at: 1/16/01 11:40:23 am

Mister Underhill
01-17-2001, 01:05 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dm
Posts: 329</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Frodo or the Ring?

Hey! Turns out I am the beer-swilling redneck cousin who crashed the wine-tasting party at Tolkien Manor!

</p>

Mithadan
01-17-2001, 12:21 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 516</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Frodo or the Ring?

I gave it a day hoping someone else might weigh in on the Gandalf is Manwe theory.

The desire of some people to place Valar in Middle Earth during the Third Age is beyond me. It runs contrary to what we know of the Valar; that they are aloof, rule from a distance, and are loath to involve themselves directly in the unfolding of the Tale of Arda. For Manwe to come to Middle Earth in the guise of Gandalf would be an abdication of his role as the Elder King. Further, Olorin was known in Valinor. He was a Maia. Surely Saruman would have noticed if a previously unknown Maia abruptly appeared as an Istari. The tale of his selection as an Istari is told in UT and he is referred to in the Valaquenta. Why would JRRT waste his time writing a &quot;cover story&quot; for Gandalf? And why would he hide Gandalf's &quot;real&quot; identity at the end or in his voluminous papers which became HoME?

Strangely enough, your theory is difficult to rebut, simply because it is entirely speculative and lacks concrete support. Manwe and Gandalf are not seen together in LoTR but this proves nothing. The same logic was used to support the Tom Bombadil is the Witch King theory on the Tolkien Sarcasm Page. Why should Gandalf be anyone but Gandalf? Why should Bombadil be anyone but Tom? Next? Glorfindel is really Orome? Radagast is a cross dressing Yavanna? (OF course, Sauron really IS Michael Jackson)

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

Saulotus
01-17-2001, 01:47 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dm
Posts: 387</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Frodo or the Ring?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Sauron really IS Michael Jackson<hr></blockquote>
I think Sauron would be insulted (on many levels).

MJ thinks of himself as bad....
while Sauron has no such delusional illusions.

</p>

Orald
01-17-2001, 02:56 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dm
Posts: 273</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Frodo or the Ring?

Weigh in? I do not believe in such silly ideas. Manwe in ME? Does it go along with the song in the Ainulindal,I don't think so. If I believed that, then Tom Bombadil would simply have to be Ilvatar.

</p>

Mister Underhill
01-17-2001, 04:21 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dm
Posts: 331</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Frodo or the Ring?

It appears I may have to fold, since my theory du-jour seems to inspire only disinterest and exasperation in equal measures. A few points, though, since I can't resist:

I am generally in agreement with you, Mith, when it comes to wacky theories about X actually being Y. I would never have dreamed of advancing a Gandalf=Manw theory on my own if the prof hadn't floated it first. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> And why would he hide Gandalf's &quot;real&quot; identity at the end or in his voluminous papers which became HoME?<hr></blockquote>I have two answers to this question.

The first is that prof seemed to take great delight in not revealing all of his secrets. In my estimation, this is one of the reasons why the books remain so absorbing and interesting. More than just holding things back, JRRT didn't even shy away from allowing disinformation to pass uncorrected. For instance, it's widely believed in the Tolkien community that trolls are &quot;corruptions&quot; or &quot;mockeries&quot; of Ents. However, in one of his Letters, Tolkien suggests that this is not true, but only Treebeard's (uninformed) opinion. In the same paragraph, JRRT mentions that even though he, the author, knows who the wizards are and where they came from, he has seen fit not to share the information explicitly with his readers. I think this is exactly the kind of thing he would always want to leave shrouded in mystery.

The second answer is, who says he didn't give some clues as to Gandalf's identity?

JRRT suggests the theory that Gandalf is Manw.
JRRT suggests that Olrin may be just an &quot;incognito&quot; used by Manw.
JRRT suggests that Gandalf &quot;wove the web&quot; that led to Sauron's eventual downfall.
JRRT does not unequivocally dispute that these theories may be true.

As far as I can discern, both the essay on the Istari (where this outlandish theory is first proposed) and The Quest of Erebor, which deeply hints that Gandalf &quot;wove the web&quot;, were written prior to publication of RotK. This would seem to dispel arguments that such issues were addressed as a reaction to reader curiosity.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Surely Saruman would have noticed if a previously unknown Maia abruptly appeared as an Istari.<hr></blockquote>Conversely, if Olrin was known to Curumo, then isn't it odd that he should be surprised to learn after some years in Middle-earth that Olrin had the greater power?

The Valar sent the Istari with the consent of Eru. It is presumed that they were all Maiar -- however, this sentence:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> For with the consent of Eru, they [the Valar] sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies as of Men...<hr></blockquote>...doesn't rule out the possibility that some of the Istari were Vala. In fact, the account you mention of the choosing of the Istari seems to be one of the least reliable texts in that section of UT -- a hand written note that is summarized by CT, complete (or rather, incomplete) with portions which were indecipherable and &quot;illegible&quot;. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> MJ thinks of himself as bad....<hr></blockquote>MJ is bad. He's a bad, bad boy.

And with that I'll fold up my tent and patiently wait for the next interesting thread... (Unless somebody wants to add a reaction that I can't resist responding to!)






</p>

Orald
01-17-2001, 07:23 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dm
Posts: 275</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Frodo or the Ring?

But Curumo did have the great power Mr. Underhill, I believe it said so in Silm or LotR that when they first came over the sea Curumo had the greater power. Only after Olorin came back to ME did he have power greater than Curumo. And would it make sense for Manwe to be a subordinate to Irmo. Irmo wasn't even an Aratar.

Another point would be the chapter on the Istari in UT. Olorin is talking to Manwe, hard to be Manwe if you are talking to him.

Hmm, I think there is more evidence to disprove Manwe being Olorin, but I don't feel like digging up quotes and listing texts.

</p>

Mithadan
01-17-2001, 08:13 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 520</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Frodo or the Ring?

I am very definitely missing something. Where does JRRT say or imply that Gandalf is Manwe?

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

Saulotus
01-17-2001, 09:05 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dm
Posts: 389</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Frodo or the Ring?

The idea presented is based upon an incomplete examination of a citation (where JRRT refutes the idea immediately afterward) in UT The Istari (located shortly before the alliterative poem concerning Dagor Dagorath, if that helps).

I applaud the effort in the correlation that was given; but...

</p>

Saulotus
01-17-2001, 09:28 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dm
Posts: 390</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Frodo or the Ring?

I should place an addendum to the previous post:

I think the idea may have actually been somewhat valid at the time LOTR was written; or at least if not exactly, then something very similar. It was only later when writing in detail after the fact that the origin is examined and that the playful concept of the possiblity of Gandalf\Manwe is discarded in favor of the servant of explanation. The statement directly refuting this is expounded upon later in even greater detail concerning motivations of the Valar and can be found in HOME vol. X Myths Transformed(surprise surprise).

</p>

Mister Underhill
01-18-2001, 12:33 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dm
Posts: 333</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Frodo or the Ring?

Underhill hastily re-pitches his tent and hangs his shingle: 'The Debater is IN'

Actually, I guess this topic is pretty much spent. But you know me; I never know when to stop!<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The idea presented is based upon an incomplete examination of a citation (where JRRT refutes the idea immediately afterward) in UT<hr></blockquote>Well, not completely incomplete. I just didn't find the refutation to be all that convincing. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;I do not (of course) know the truth of the matter, and if I did it would be a mistake to be more explicit than Gandalf was.&quot;

&quot;I think it was not so...&quot;<hr></blockquote>I think it's interesting that JRRT rather coyly brings the idea up only to (sort of) shoot it down again. I think this falls under the &quot;Methinks he doth protest too much&quot; clause of the debate code, or maybe I'm thinking of &quot;No doesn't always mean no.&quot; I wonder who the first person narrator is supposed to be in this fragment?

You're right, though, that other parts of the collected writings that make up this section of UT contradict the proposed theory. I don't have HoME X and have only read parts of it. My HoME kung-fu is very weak. I'll take your word for it, Saulotus, that there's more evidence to contradict Gandalf=Manw there, too.

On the other hand, this sort of raises a &quot;chicken or the egg&quot; kind of question: if a conception is more or less true at the time of writing, but then later changes, which is the more accurate?

To Durelen: Cirdan upon his first meeting with Olrin &quot;divined in him the greatest spirit and the wisest.&quot; Saruman was apparently perceived by most (himself included) as the most powerful Istari at first, but other parts of UT describe in detail how he soon came to realize that Olrin had the greater power and wisdom, and came to hate and fear him (not to mention secretly emulate him) because of it.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> at: 1/18/01 1:35:43 am

HerenIstarion
01-18-2001, 02:39 PM
Shade of Carn Dm
Posts: 369

Ok. I'm a bit too late to dive in here, still:


members of their own high order

Maiar are considered to be creatures of the same order as Valar, only lesser in power. So by member it may be meant Vala or, equally, any given Maia as well

A story must be told or there'll be no story, yet it is the untold stories that are most moving

the Lorien wanderer
01-19-2001, 05:40 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 102</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Frodo or the Ring?

Oh come on Rust. Communism totally SUCKS. And don't confuse communism with socialism. They're hopelessly intertwined now but they're very different ideologies. Refer to my last post for the reasons.


Not all those who wander are lost.</p>

HerenIstarion
01-19-2001, 06:03 AM
Shade of Carn Dm
Posts: 375

:eek: ???

A story must be told or there'll be no story, yet it is the untold stories that are most moving

Mister Underhill
01-19-2001, 11:08 AM
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Re: Frodo or the Ring?

....Double ?? Looks like a posting misfire.

To respond to your post, HI, I only meant to point out that the line cited doesn't contradict the idea (and, indeed, seems to imply) that at least some of the Istari could have been Vala.

</p>

Orald
01-19-2001, 11:57 AM
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Re: Frodo or the Ring?

I find it hard to believe that you find it hard to believe something Tolkien said just because it didn't convince you.

</p>

Mithadan
01-19-2001, 12:31 PM
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Re: Frodo or the Ring?

While I tend to agree with your position, Durelen, I admit that I find it hard to accept that orcs are not corrupted elves although in HoME 10 JRRT suggests they were either corupted men or beasts bred with Maiar and men.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

HerenIstarion
01-19-2001, 01:23 PM
Shade of Carn Dm
Posts: 380


JRRT himself was intending tofind out rather than to make up. So, as he himself was not easily convinced about what he was writing down, why should we?

A story must be told or there'll be no story, yet it is the untold stories that are most moving

Orald
01-19-2001, 02:01 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dm
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Re: Frodo or the Ring?

But all we can do is speculate, find the best possible answer and think to ourselves, &quot;Hmm, that seems right.&quot; Just like Tolkien would probably do. No one knows exactly what Tolkien was thinking. It is just hard to say that anything is anything when we don't really know. Ok, I see that you can find it hard to believe that Gandalf was not Manwe, but can you see that I believe that Gandalf was just Gandalf.

</p>

HerenIstarion
01-19-2001, 02:17 PM
Shade of Carn Dm
Posts: 386

That's why it's great. ME is real, unlike all the stuff I read before and after Tolkien. It looks (and was intedned to look in the end) much like history, with it's different sources of inforamation and different accounts of what really happened. IRL you never get any pure information, and always have to calculate for yourself what is more plausible.

A story must be told or there'll be no story, yet it is the untold stories that are most moving

the Lorien wanderer
01-19-2001, 09:38 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 103</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Frodo or the Ring?

Oh yes. *grins sheepishly* that doesn't belong here. At all.

Not all those who wander are lost.</p>

Mister Underhill
01-19-2001, 10:23 PM
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Re: Frodo or the Ring?

Durelen, let me clarify. I meant that Tolkien wrote the &quot;refutation&quot; in a way that certainly left room for doubt and uncertainty. And why would you leave room for doubt and uncertainty if you weren't hinting that what you were &quot;refuting&quot; might actually be true? It's not like Tolkien wrote, &quot;Durelen wrote to me from West Virginia asking if Gandalf is Manw, but I can tell you right now that that theory is absolutely false!&quot; and I'm saying, &quot;Well, I'm just not convinced by the prof on this one.&quot;

I doubt the item mentioned is just one of Tolkien's notes; otherwise, why would he say things like, &quot;I do not (of course) know the truth of the matter...&quot; Tolkien liked to write as if he were a character in ME. I wish I knew more about the fragment I'm quoting from. Is the &quot;I&quot; supposed to be Frodo? <blockquote>Quote:<hr> It looks (and was intedned to look in the end) much like history, with it's different sources of inforamation and different accounts of what &quot;really happened&quot;. <hr></blockquote>HI, you're so right! That's why we can have so much fun debating controversial topics here on the Downs.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> at: 1/19/01 11:25:23 pm

Saulotus
01-19-2001, 11:21 PM
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Re: Frodo or the Ring?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Tolkien liked to write as if he were a character in ME<hr></blockquote>
Except in personal essays where he examines his own construction.

JRRT wrote as the 'Translator' who had discovered the RED BOOK. This is self-evident and expressly stated in Hobbit and LOTR, (especially so in the Prologue and Appendices) as well as the Introduction to AOTB, and thus is essentially a character who has stepped into his own creation.

</p>

HerenIstarion
11-09-2001, 03:49 PM
this monthly theme is a great thing indeed. I came to this topic through main page and I really enjoyed rereading this discussion. (good old times when I was not so busy and had time for more serious posting, not only meddling with quote game).

And I have found some point in my own posts on the subject I left unanswered. when I said Frodo was white-on-black in Mordor and grey in Ithilien, I meant his mental picture contrasted with the mental picture of his surroundings. I need accurate wording. Ok, to quote Mithadan, I can hear swords sharpened as I type - the land itself on ME has it's mentality (remember "rocks listening" thirstily the sound of laughter, never heard in mordor for ages?), which can be detected visually while wearing the ring of power - Sam sees the grey rocks near Cirith Ungol as being darker and solider when he puts on the ring. And Frodo, being (in general) person of a good will, though not faultless, appeared grey in Ithilien, where land's mentality was not so dark (yet, for Sauron's will was not imposed on it for long) than in his old place in Mordor, where the land itself became like it's master, black. simple visual effect - my grey macintosh may appear white in the dark, yet under the sun it is grey.

Eowyn of Ithilien
11-09-2001, 05:26 PM
actually I'm inclined to agree...everything is comparative...the lamp that's so bright at night is nothing compared to the sun's light

jpoet111
11-16-2001, 10:01 PM
It is obvious that it was the ring that spoke the words. First of all if you think of the psychological way, Frodo would not want to think about the fire or even bring the subject up. Second, I remember that the ring glowed or something like that. Why would that happen at the same time Frodo spoke?

The Barrow-Wight
11-16-2001, 10:15 PM
Because Sam was seeing things (see my previous comments AND articles on the site).

KayQy
11-18-2001, 03:42 PM
Well, I'm going to go back down that wonderful digression about Gandalf=Manwe, just because I had gotten so deep into it before the subject returned to Frodo.

if Olrin was known to Curumo, then isn't it odd that he should be surprised to learn after some years in Middle-earth that Olrin had the greater power?

Perhaps Curumo had the greater power (or was allowed the greater use of it) when they were first sent over the Sea; but after turning to the Dark Side (sorry), and his army being defeated, he had lost a great deal of his power. He, of course, would still be convinced that he was the more powerful, until the new and improved Gandalf showed him how much things had changed.

Another point would be the chapter on the Istari in UT. Olorin is talking to Manwe, hard to be Manwe if you are talking to him.

I was going to say this myself. Is this some previously hidden trick of the Valar, to be more than one person?

It looks (and was intedned to look in the end) much like history, with it's different sources of inforamation and different accounts of what "really happened".

Only this is a lot more interesting than the history that we have to learn in high school. smilies/tongue.gif

And I guess I'll go ahead and mention that I think that the Ring spoke through Frodo, or that Frodo spoke under the influence of the ring. It had so much control over him by that time it would actually be difficult to separate them completely.

Orald
11-18-2001, 11:54 PM
I think your post makes much sense, KayQy, what happens to Curumo would be nearly the exact same thing that happened to Morgoth, but on a smaller scale.

Kin-strife
11-19-2001, 05:26 AM
I'm sorry, I've just noticed this Gandalf=Manwe thread and want to contribute.
I made a point before in the "image of Eru" thread that the role Gandalf plays in LotR is similar to that played by Christ in the bible. The way he came (incarnate) in a weak and humble manner to unite all people in love and understanding, the way he works without instigating fear or oppresion to alert people to the evils of the world and the way he died only to come back in greater splendour. I think that the Gandalf/Manwe thing in UT may have been influenced by Tolkiens realisation of the similarities between the two (assuming they were accidental, which I believe they were). But I don't think he meant it as a truth. Tolkiens stories are supposed to be just second handed accounts and interpretations for the most part so why not site other (slightly extreme) beliefs for a better rounded picture. I think that's all that was.

Rose Cotton
12-30-2001, 07:35 PM
You people are getting totally off topic. This thread,as you call it(I'm new at this) is about Frodo and the ring. Not about who Gandalf is.

HerenIstarion
01-03-2002, 12:24 PM
well, that's what makes discussion here so fascinating smilies/smile.gif. As Bilbo used to say:
You step into the Road, and if you dont keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to
But that what makes it interesting, I fancy

Rose Cotton
01-04-2002, 07:22 PM
Sorry I was being rude.So was it Frodo or the ring speaking?

HerenIstarion
01-06-2002, 12:53 PM
well, not so horribly smilies/smile.gif. as for who spoke, you must decide for yourself, as there (up in the thraed) opinions were devided in two at most equal parts with small variations. Only JRRT himself was authority enough to define, and we are left to speculate upon the subject (what we do with greatest pleasure)

Rose Cotton
01-15-2002, 06:34 AM
I've got it! The answear! I was just reading the part look at this: ...a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. OUT OF THE FIRE there spoke a commanding voice."Begone and trouble me nomore! If you touch me again you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom." Read that. It says Out Of the Fire the voice spoke not Frodo. The Ring spoke. It sayed if you touch me. It ment if you touch the ring. I think the ring never talked before because it didn't have enough control over Frodo yet. Maybe because it was a ring it neaded to borrow Frodo's voice! I gotta go. I'll add more later.

HerenIstarion
10-01-2002, 12:06 PM
I'm reviving this thread for the use fo buttbarliman and other ppl writing articles on absolute corruption of absolute power
smilies/rolleyes.gif

Cazoz
10-01-2002, 01:07 PM
At the moment I'm re-reading TTT and haven't got to book 4 yet. After that I'll probably skip to the Mordor bits.
(Guilty admission, the past 3/4 times I've read the books, I've skipped book 4 and the Mordor F&S bits, sorry!)

So I'm a bit rusty on this part of the story, but I just wanted to jump in an say how much I've enjoyed reading all of your posts, even totally conflicting ones have been steeped with insight and intelligent use of evidence.

But for what it's worth, I'd go for the middle-ground theory that it's the power of the Ring conpelling Frodo to talk more viciously and harshly than when he was previously uncorrupted by the Ring, and obviously less protective.

You'll hate me for this, but I'd compare this part from the book to that bit in the film where Bilbo goes all weird, grasping at the Ring in Rivendell. I know this is about the books and sorry for the movie reference, but this is how I'd see Frodo's Ring-induced flip-out mood swing.

HerenIstarion
10-28-2002, 04:29 AM
I always figured out as though PJ showed Bilbo actually going black in the face, that was as Frodo saw him, and no actual physical change occurred indeed

lathspell
10-28-2002, 10:31 AM
Interesting thought, Rose!

I think you are right indeed, but I'll read that part of the book again to form my own opinion (though that is most likely the same as yours).
Now there popped in my head another question related to this.

In the end of LotR, when Frodo sails away, he tells Sam that there he will get lots of children.

'... And also you have Rose, and Elanor, and Frodo-lad will come, and Rosie-lass, and Merry, and Goldilocks, and Pippin; and perhaps more that I cannot see...'

This is from The Grey Havens - RotK.

So Frodo was in the end foresighted, for a bit. So was the Ring, if you take it true what Rose says. Does this mean anything? The Ring affects mortals in many ways. Is the foresight of Frodo something he got by wearing and wielding the Ring.
There is no mention of Frodo being foresighted anywhere else, and in (I believe) Rivendell Frodo and Gandalf have a conversation in which Frodo says something with as far as I can see, and Gandalf replies: 'But you cannot see far.'
Did Frodo have no foresight at all there, or did it grow as he spent more time with the Ring?

And after all some words of Saruman come to me. In The Scouring of the Shire he says this to Frodo: 'You have grown, Hafling. Yes, you have grown indeed.'
Does this in anyway relate to the things said above?

Well, I must think this over a bit more. It's far too much to come to your mind in a minute or so.

Hope to see some other opinions on this as well,

greetings,
lathspell

P.S.: A very interesting thought, Rose!

Alcerin
10-31-2002, 11:01 PM
Ok...Cazoz, in answer of your last remark...

When frodo saw Bilbo at rivendell,he turned black,if Sam saw Frodo at Mt.Doom, wouldnt he also have turned black instead of wearing a whiterobe? You've got to remember that the ring's power is evil not good.

I agree with the earlier comment that it was Gandalf,because who else would have that kind of authority and...magic,so that he could be seen like that?!? and I do believe that the "ring of fire" was indeed the one metioned at the end of the book that Gandalf is wearing.

Does that make sense?

[ November 01, 2002: Message edited by: Alcerin ]

[ November 01, 2002: Message edited by: Alcerin ]

HerenIstarion
09-29-2004, 05:02 AM
Bringing this up for the sake of Chapter by Chapter, Ring Goes South (http://69.51.5.41/showpost.php?p=354093&postcount=11) discussion

Elladan and Elrohir
09-30-2004, 09:56 PM
Showing up way late for this discussion (pity), but a few points:

1) About Olorin and Manwe: I don't think we can take Tolkien's statements in UT about this at face value like we can with LOTR. It's pretty obvious that JRRT's views were still to some extent undeveloped regarding this, though he obviously leaned toward what all have commonly supposed, that Olorin is a Maia, not Manwe Sulimo.

The same goes to an even greater extent to the HOME series. Yes, they contain valuable insights about M-E, but they cannot be taken as gospel as can LOTR and Silmarillion. Tolkien had not completed his world; he was still thinking out many complex issues (such as the origin of orcs). It is truly sad that he could not finish his mythology to his satisfaction before his death; yet I think that, similar to the tree in "Leaf by Niggle," it would never truly be finished. There was always something else to work on, some new question to ponder and try to answer. Thus, we cannot hold HOME in the same regard as LOTR etc.

2) I'm taking the tentative position that it was indeed the Ring that spoke. As Rose pointed out, the voice comes "out of the fire". Also, as others have pointed out, it was "a commanding voice," a bit incongruous for Frodo since he had just been panting for Gollum to get away.

As for why did the Ring not speak previous to that point, here's a point to consider that, as far as I can see, no one has discussed here: The Ring was growing in power as it got closer to Mount Doom. There, on the very slopes of the mountain where it was forged, its power would be almost at a height. It makes sense, then, that it might even have the power to speak here.

Then we are left with the question: Why did the Ring not want Gollum to touch it? At this point, that's the one huge hole in my argument. Why wouldn't it want Gollum to beat Frodo and take it? He would immediately put it on, and in a few moments the Nazgul would be there, and all would be over.

In one of Tolkien's Letters, he says that if Gollum had not played false, and if he had stayed with Frodo and Sam to Mount Doom, he would in the end have taken the Ring by force. But then he would have seen that the only way he could keep the Ring and hurt Sauron would be to destroy it and him together, and he would also have seen that this would be his greatest service to Frodo. He then would have voluntarily cast himself into the flames. JRRT went on to say that Frodo would have had a similar vision after he had put on the Ring, but he was immediately attacked by Gollum.

The only surmision I can reach at this moment is that the first part of what JRRT says, about that the only way for Gollum to keep the Ring and hurt Sauron would be to destroy it and him together, still holds true in this scenario. Perhaps the Ring realized that Gollum WOULD have thrown himself into the fire, had he taken the Ring. But then, Frodo likely would have done the same, so I don't know.

Would speculate further, but I am going to bed. Elen sila lumenn omentialvo.

HerenIstarion
09-30-2004, 11:43 PM
Welcome, E&E :)

The same goes to an even greater extent to the HOME series. Yes, they contain valuable insights about M-E, but they cannot be taken as gospel as can LOTR and Silmarillion.

In the light of the quote above, I cordially invite you to participate in Canonicity: the Book or the Reader? (http://69.51.5.41/showthread.php?t=10593) discussion

BTW - gospel <-- good spell <-- good news

I suppose that Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth may be taken exactly 'as gospel' - as good news, with glimpses of Eru's future incarnation and continuation of elves in Arda Remade.

But, apart from kidding, please accept my comliments for very astute and articulate post

Cheers

Elladan and Elrohir
10-02-2004, 08:55 PM
Thank you much for your kind words, as well as for the invite to the other thread. I may take you up on it -- if I can sift through the pages and pages of past discussion in it. I hate to jump right into a discussion when I haven't even read all of it thus far. Nonetheless, thank you again!