View Full Version : Arthedain's early chance

Gwaihir the Windlord
01-02-2001, 09:40 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Essence of Darkness
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After the death of Arvedui, Earnur of Gondor sent a huge naval force in aid of Arnor -- so large that the Grey Havens, both Forlond and Harlond, could hardlly contain it. Joining with the Elves of Lindon and the fleeing remnants of Arthedain, they marched through the North-Kingdom and cleansed it completely of the servants of Sauron. No one Orc remained west of the Mountains.

Why then was Arnor abandoned? Surely Gondor, now at the height of it's power, could have re-colonised the North-Kingdom with the remnants of the Dunedain of the North -- not just Arthedain, but Rhudaur and Cardolan too?

Gwaihir the Windlord http://www.barrowdowns.comthe barrow-downs</A>
<FONT size="2.5">'Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor,
for the Realm of Sauron is ended for ever,
and the Dark Tower is thrown down.'

01-02-2001, 11:28 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
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Re: Arthedain's early chance

Was Gondor at the height of its power then? It had
by that time endured the Kin Strife,in which &quot;much of the best blood in Gondor was shed&quot;. And also,the Wainriders and
related evil peoples had been attacking for many years. Only 30 years before the fall of Arnor,King Ondoher and both his Heirs had fallen in battle with them,and the enemy
had made it all the way into Ithilien. Gondor had to still be mainly concerned with the Easterlings,and Arthedain was very far away.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;.....as to most men in Gondor,the realm in Arthedain seemed a small thing,for all the lineage of its lords&quot;<hr></blockquote>

Maybe just after Arnor fell,Gondor didn't think they had enough power to re-populate it,and safeguard their realm at
the same time. They seem to have become absorbed in their own affairs,and maybe they thought only of preserving the one realm they had left.


01-09-2001, 05:22 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
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I have to agree with Inziladun, they were hard pressed by their enemies. Re-colonizing a whole kingdom might have put a strain on Gondor. But hey, whats done/written is done/written. &lt;&lt;shrugs&gt;&gt;

&quot;If none can release us then indeed the Everlasting Darkness shall be our lot, whether we keep our oath or break it; but less evil shall we do in the breaking.&quot;
Maglor speaking of the Oath of Fëanor


01-09-2001, 08:17 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: Hmmmmm?

It would have been easier to have moved the entire population into Eriador and defend it than to stay in Godor and defend it. Eriador had all those natual boundaries like the Misty Mountains and the White Mountains, plus the Rohirrim would have made a better buffer against enemies.


01-10-2001, 11:08 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
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Re: Hmmmmm?

Wouldn't that have been a pretty arduous journey,especially for such a large population? It would have taken them years to move all their people and possessions over that great a distance. And Eriador's natural features didn't help the previous inhabitants very much.

And at that hour the sun went down beyond the rim of the world,as a mighty fire;and Tuor stood alone upon the cliff with outspread arms,and a great yearning filled his heart.</p>

01-11-2001, 12:03 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: Hmmmmm?

It probably would have taken a while to move everyone, but as for not working I think it would. You see before the enemy was within but at this point the enemy is without. All that needs to be done is fortify it a little better. All of the enemies that were in Eriador were for the most part destroyed so it would be easy to maintain, the only enemies still there that I can think of would be the Dunlendings and maybe some orcs. Khand and the Harad would be too far south to be a threat, as would be the Wainriders from the east. With only these small nuisances such as Dunlendings, the Dunedain could build their army plus, they would be closer too the elves and would gain much in friendship with them. After a while they could expand and take over Gondor again and it would be even stronger than before.

Not that it would work in real life, but I have done this before in strategy games, such as AoE, I would be at war with another civilization, so what I do is move several of my men from my first civilization to another part of the board, behind natural bounderies. If my first civilization is destroyed I have the other already started and it is much easier to defend even with a smaller amount of people.


01-11-2001, 12:54 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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yin and yang and the dunedain

Arnor [and later Arthedain] had from the begining a different fate from Gondor. They were 2 sides of 1 coin . Arnor was weak in might , but strong in wisdom , always maintaining close contact w/ the Eldar and maintaing the Line of Elendil in the harshest of circumstances.

Gondor on the other hand was externally mighty [in comparison] even at the end of the third age Gondor's muster was thousands and 'Arnor's' dozen's. Gondor was proud of it's lineage but as faramir says valued the warrior the most. Boromir was considered the best man in Gondor , he who had a stunted soul compared to his brother and Imrahil or even Beregond.

so to your idea, duralen , as logical as it might seem for Gondor to move into Eriador would be against there character to leave Minas Tirith and Pelagir [the oldest numenorean settlement in Gondor] and dol Amroth for destoyed or forsaken capitals, surrounded by elves. The Gondorians would had been largely cut off from eldarin civilization w/in decades of the end of the last alliance . They had the numenorean pride in a deeper way than the Arnorians who had the surrounding communities of Lindon and Rivendell and the wandering companies to keep their self-image inperspective.

Inviting Rohan down from the Wlderland may have been the last bold and humble act of Gondor , contrast it w/ denethor's bold and proud act of trying to contest w/ sauron in the palantir. And his father's inviting of Sauruman into Isengard, oblivious to the palantir [it would seem].


"What then was this hope , if you know ?" Finrod asked "They say" answered Andreth :" they say that the One will himself enter into Arda , and heal Men and all the Marring from the begining to the end."</p>[i]

05-02-2003, 01:18 PM
RE: Arthedain...

It would have been a massive strain on Gondor to re-populate Arnor. There were never many in the north, and the fact that Gondor did not accept Arvedui's claim to the crown a few years earlier states in deed that Gondor was of the line of Anorien, and had not concern with the north. Yet in battle they came when summoned by Arvedui, albeit too late to save the kingdom.

Morwen Tindomerel
05-02-2003, 05:56 PM
First off I sincerely doubt the fleet sent to Aranarth's aid was as large and mighty as the Gondorim annalists would have us believe. This is, after all, a kingdom that has barely survived a Great Plague, a civil war, and assorted barbarian invasions. Gondor can't have been in very good shape after all that, and it is *MOST* unlikely they still had that kind of manpower to throw around.

Note also the dead silence in the annals about the contribution of the Northern Dunedain themselves. The Elves of Imladris get a mention but not the Men of the Arnor - Hmmmmm indeed!

One must allow for the profoundly Gondorian bias of the annalists and read their accounts with a large chunk of salt ready to hand.

It has always been my opinion that Aranarth chose to 'disappear' with his people as a matter of policy. He knew very well who they were really fighting and that Sauron wouldn't stop until he'd destroyed the Line of Isildur and their people. The North Kingdom had defeated Angmar two or three times before only to see their enemy rebuild and come back even stronger than before.

So, Aranarth decided to go underground, to let the Witch King and his master think they had succeeded and continue to continue to defend his realm in secret. Which the Rangers did with notable success for nearly a thousand years.

As for the question of population. There can be little doubt Arnor was originally the more populous and advanced of the two kingdoms, why else would Elendil have chosen it for his seat?

Eriador, with its Elven neighbors and distance from the Kings' Colonies would have had a strong appeal for Faithful escaping persecution in Numenor. In addition to the Elves they would also have found a fairly sizeable population of Men closely akin to themselves, being descended from those Edain who never crossed over into Beleriand or who fled back to escape the wars.

Undoubtedly Arnor lost a lot of Men in the War of the Last Alliance but Elrond is clearly exagerating when he claims it had a permanent effect on the realm's demography. In fact Arnor expanded beyond its original bounds into what became the kingdoms of Rhudaur and Cardolan, strongly implying a *growth* in population, probably including the incorporation of non-Edainic peoples in the south and east.

Whatever the reasons for the division it is clear that the three northern kingdoms lived in peace *as long as each was ruled by an heir of Isildur* the Appendix clearly states that Rhudaur didn't become a problem until *after* the line of the Kings had died out there. This is supported by the fact that not one King of Arthedain died prematurely in battle in the five hundred odd years between the division of the Kingdom and the rise of Angmar.

Cardolan allied with Arthedain against the common foe until the Great Plague decimated its population or drove them northward to escape infection.

Undoubtedly the population of Arthedain was reduced by warfare, though the Plague had little effect there and there was no parallel for the Kinstrife. Yet even after a thousand years in hiding there are still enough Dunedain to effectively patrol the two hundred and fifty or so thousand miles of Eriador and protect population centers like the Shire and Breeland.

We must remember the Northern Dunedain were in hiding, therefore it suited them and their allies such as Elrond to minimize their numbers as much as possible.

Gandalf after all didn't seem to think Aragorn was going to have any trouble rebuilding and repopulating Fornost, strongly suggesting there is still a fairly sizeable Dunedain population in the North.

[ May 02, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

Sophia the Thunder Mistress
05-03-2003, 11:52 AM
As for the question of population. There can be little doubt Arnor was originally the more populous and advanced of the two kingdoms, why else would Elendil have chosen it for his seat?

I think some weight should be given to the personality of Elendil, when speaking about his choice of seat. Elendil had been among the Lords of the Faithful in Numenor, he'd spoken to and had friendship with the Eldar of Eressea. I think it's only a natural conclusion that Elendil would go to the North Kingdom and maintain contact with the Elven Lords in ME.

In fact, I think it's probably this fact that led to the 'split personality' in the Numenorean realms. The Numenoreans as far back as Aldarion had had dealings with Gil-Galad in Lindon. I would guess that certainly Elendil's original intention was to found a kingdom where the elven speech was spoken, where the Edain could have fellowship with the firstborn. That kingdom was Arnor.

The establishment of Gondor, perhaps, was due to the pride of those survivors of the downfall who still had great pride in Numenor. They chose to make their home near the great Numenorean relics in ME, the globe of Pharazon and so forth. They kept Elendil as their Lord however, which caused the great inconvenience of how to rule two geographically distinct kingdoms, a problem I don't understand without this split. Why would Elendil found two kingdoms when there was plenty of room for all in one or the other? The basic difference of priority in his people, is the answer I find most easy to accept. The founding Arnorians valued their ties to the Eldar, the founding Gondorians valued their ties to Numenor.

If Elendil at heart was one of the Arnorians, it is only natural that he would place his capitol there regardless of population.


Morwen Tindomerel
05-03-2003, 06:59 PM
Tolkien says it was Faithful who built Pelagir doesn't he? I suspect Gondor's great appeal was a climate similar to that of Numenor. But I agree with you that the ideas of the King's Men had a stong influence in Gondor as she developed. Which helps explain why she fell into such similar errors, (imperialism, obsession with death and immortality, etc.) but to their credit the Gondorim never made the final mistake, they never fell to worshipping the Shadow as their ancestors had done but remained its obdurate enemies whatever their other follies.

05-04-2003, 08:48 PM
One must allow for the profoundly Gondorian bias of the annalists and read their accounts with a large chunk of salt ready to hand. Was it a coincidence that the great library was in Minas Tirith? Also more of the ships from Numenor landed south though Elendils landed farther north, so the main body of strength and Numenorean knowledge would have landed. The reason Aranarth and the other sons are not mentioned is because they had fought the battle and retreat, and were surely not in the first wave to drive against the Witch-King wheras the fresh army of Gondor was. I have more to say on this but I have to go cook dinner.. back later.


Morwen Tindomerel
05-05-2003, 07:48 AM
More Numenorean ships did indeed go south, but that number includes King's Men who established colonies at Umbar and points further south. They did not all go to Gondor, far from it.

Arnor was the High Kingdom, it is impossible for me to believe that Elendil didn't have at least as good a library as his sons in Gondor, and let us not forget many books and records must have been lost in the Kinstrife and destruction of Osgiliath.

Aragorn, when asked by the Hobbits where he learned his history tells them 'the Heirs of Elendil do not forget all things past' thus citing his own people's literary tradition as the source of much of his lore. And don't forget the Northern Dunedain also had access to the Elven libraries of Mithlond and Rivendell.

There is in short absolutely no good reason to assume Arnor was behind Gondor in learning and lore. In fact, given Gondor's imperialist preoccupation, the Northern Kingdom may very well have been ahead of her in this respect.

And even the Gondorian sources *are* the only ones it wouldn't make them any less biased. Aranarth and his Men had been resting and recuperating in Lindon for months before the Gondorian forces arrived. Why shouldn't they be fit to take part? BTW the account in the Appedices says troops came from both Lindon *and Arnor*. It's kind of hard to believe that Men of Arnor would have fought in this battle without their new King at their head. Clearly the Gondorian chroniclers just didn't see fit to enlarge on their role, prefering to exagerate the contribution of Gondor instead.

05-05-2003, 11:42 AM
Well said Morwen Tindomerel, and perfectly plausable though all this is purely conjecture on all our parts since J.R. wrote the whole of the story that is known, whether in his published appendices or in Chris's editions. I do like your way of thinking on all this and it helps me in a bit I am writing. Surely there are stores of scrolls in Fornost, Annúminas, Tharbad, and other places un-discovered. It will be great to have the Lore of Arnor known, though surely much was plundered when the north was overrun.

Morwen Tindomerel
05-05-2003, 08:57 PM
I majored in history and so was trained to be wary of the spin chroniclers give their records! In all fairness though it should be remembered that 'objectivity' and rigid and complete accuracy weren't even ideals for historical writers until the twentieth century, (this is not to say that recent historians necessarily live up to these ideals but they are now the standard).

The same was undoubtedly true of the chroniclers and annalists of ME. But I mean seriously! Are we really expected to believe a country that's been through a great plague, a bitter civil war, and most recently a nearly successful barbarian invasion would still have the kind of manpower to crew enough ships to overflow the havens of Mithlond, Harlond *and* Forlond? I don't think so!!! smilies/rolleyes.gif

I must say though Professor Tolkien seems to have been much more interested in the history of Gondor, with its conquerors, and civil wars and wicked kings, than the chronicles of the North Kingdom. But then you know what they say about happy nations having no history!