Elmo...

[eveningpony]

I was wondering if anyone other than me had noticed Elmo (from ME not sesame street)? I was just filping through the UT index and noticed him:
*Elmo Elf of Dorath, younger brother of Elwe (Thingol) amd Olwe of Alqualonde, acording to one account grandfather of Celeborn.
^ from UT index.
If Elmo was Celeborn grandfather, Celeborn and Galadriel would be 2nd cousins or something like that.
~Evening Pony

[Melephelwen]

Gee, I think you're right...
No, I am gonna stay completely out of this, cuz I don't have a clue about it!!! *Mele tries to protect her head from all the pain that comes of thinking* smilies/wink.gif

[Elrian]

Like Amroth being the son of Galadriel and Celeborn, in one of the entries of UT, It could have been an idea and not the final version of the story.
Mele, this is not an RPG.

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[burrahobbit]

Elmo was the younger brother of Thingol, both of them being originally awakened at Cuiviénen with their brother Olwë.

Not to get off topic or anything, but brothers require parents.

That aside, yeah, if Elmo is Celeborn's grandfather then it contradicts some of the other stuff about close relatives falling in love. There are other stories about where Celeborn came from, though.

[Legolas]

It'd be pretty difficult for elves to avoid being incestuous.

[burrahobbit]

Quite, but they can pick from farther out than second cousins. With Galadriel and Celeborn being just a few generations in it should have been pretty easy for them to find people that weren't related at all.

[ July 19, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

[Aldagrim Proudfoot]

Um, actually I think that's legal (second cousins marrying) in America

[Aiwendil]

Not to get off topic or anything, but brothers require parents.

Well, Melkor and Manwe were brothers and they didn't really have parents. But I agree that Elwe, Olwe, and Elmo probably did.

That aside, yeah, if Elmo is Celeborn's grandfather then it contradicts some of the other stuff about close relatives falling in love.

It's said that first cousins weren't supposed to fall in love. The same is not said, as far as I know, about more distant relations. Elrond married Celebrian, who was his second or fourth cousin (second from her point of view, fourth from his) on both sides (through the Noldor and through the Sindar).

[Joy]

Elrond married Celebrian, who was his second or fourth cousin (second from her point of view, fourth from his) on both sides (through the Noldor and through the Sindar).

Can you explain the 2nd and 4th cousin thing???? A good diagram would be appreciated. Thanks smilies/smile.gif

[Elrian]

>Finarfin>Galadriel>Celebrian
Finwe:
>Fingolfin>Turgon>Idril>Eärendil>Elrond

And if Thingol and Elmo were brothers:

>Thingol>Luthien>Dior>Elwing>Elrond
Father:
>Elmo>Celeborn>Celebrian
>Olwë>Eärwen>Galadriel

[ August 04, 2002: Message edited by: Elrian ]

[Orofacion of the Vanyar]

Elmo was the younger brother of Thingol, both of them being originally awakened at Cuiviénen with their brother Olwë.

Could you tell me where this appears, I'm having trouble finding it.

[burrahobbit]

It would seem that a post has been deleted, Orofacion. It was there, though. It's a real shame that whomever it was decided to mess up the flow of the thread.

[Orofacion of the Vanyar]

Thank you for clearing that up Burrahobbit.

I was merely wondering because nowhere does it state that any of the three leaders of the elven groups were the first to awake beside Cuivenen. It is usually assumed, but not proven.

Anyways, on with the thread.

[Daniel Telcontar]

In the Silmarillion, Elwë says to the dwarves before they kill him:"... Who's life began so many years before at Cuivienen." It does not say anything specific, only suggests that he was among those awoken.

[burrahobbit]

So he was born there, I already knew that. Olwe, Elwe, and Elmo are brothers. You can't have a brother unless you also have a mother and a father. If you awake without parents you don't have either a mother or a father, and thus you can't have brothers. Keeping that in mind, it seems slightly impossible that Elwe, Olwe, and Elmo awoke at Cuivienen.

[Daniel Telcontar]

Well, Irmo and Namo are Valar, and they are brothers. If they can be brothers without parents, why can't Elwë and Olwë?

[burrahobbit]

Irmo and Namo are Valar, and they are brothers.

Give me a quote.

[Daniel Telcontar]

Quote from the Valaquenta, regarding Irmo and Namo:"Fëanturi, master of spirits, are brothers."

[The Silver-shod Muse]

Maybe the term "brothers" isn't to be taken in the literal, genetic sense?

[burrahobbit]

Quite. Here is a quote from CT.

By the emendation given in note 2 Vaire appears, and is clearly by the arrangement of the passage the spouse of Mandos, as she remained; and Nienna now becomes solitary, again as she remained. Of course it is altogether unclear what is really meant by the terms 'brother', 'sister', 'mother', 'son', 'children' in the context of the great Valar.

What I said above pretty much only applies to incarnates, which the Valar aren't.

[Orofacion of the Vanyar]

In the Silmarillion, Elwë says to the dwarves before they kill him:"... Who's life began so many years before at Cuivienen." It does not say anything specific, only suggests that he was among those awoken.

You're right, it does not suggest anything specific, nor does it say that he was one of the first that awoke, merely his life began there.

Think about it, isn't it conceivable that the first that awoke had born children beside Cuivienen? Vala or not, it would take Orome some time to traverse the land in a physical form (which he was in upon finding the elves, riding upon his horse) time enough for an elf to grow to adult stature and rise to a leadership role within the elvish community.

That quote merely says his life began by Cuivienen, not specifically that he awoke by the shores or that he was born, neither is definite.

As far as the Vala being considered siblings, well they in a way are. Illuvator created them and in a sense are his children. Now if Illuvator was said to have a brother ( smilies/rolleyes.gif ) than of course this would not make sense at all. I think it's safe to say that the Vala could be interpreted as siblings, if not genetically, in an abstract sense.

[ August 05, 2002: Message edited by: Orofacion of the Vanyar ]

[ August 05, 2002: Message edited by: Orofacion of the Vanyar ]

[Legolas]

It is "Iluvatar"...

Anyway, if that was the reasoning behind Melkor and Manwe being brothers, why aren't all the Valar brothers and sisters? Or all the Maiar? Or all of the elves that awoke?

[Orofacion of the Vanyar]

It is "Iluvatar"...

One letter? You feel the need to point out one letter? smilies/rolleyes.gif

Where does it say they aren't all siblings in any sense?

[Legolas]

Two letters. And yes - you did it more than once, indicating that it was something you had a false conception about, not a typo.

It doesn't say that Gimli was a hermaphrodite. Should we assume he is since it is not explicitly denied?

[Tar Elenion]

Ingwe, Finwe, Elwe and Olwe did not awake at Cuivienen. They all had parents and were born. According to the Legend of the Awakening (in HoME 11) 144 Elves were 'Unbegotten'. These were 72 pairs each awakening with their spouse. Elwe was wed to Melian the Maia, who did not Awake at Cuivienen. Hence he did not Awake at Cuivienen but had parents, and thus was born as was his brother Olwe (and Elmo as well). Finwe was wed to Miriel who had parents ('Serinde' was her mother-name). Thus Finwe did not Awake with his spouse and was thus born. Ingwe had a sister (Indis or Indis mother, depending on version) and thus had parents. Hence Ingwe did not Awake at Cuivienen.

[burrahobbit]

Thanks, Tar Elenion. I was going to refer to that, but I couldn't remember where is was. smilies/biggrin.gif

Thanks for directing my attention, I might quote further tomorrow, or find an awesome essay that I read recently.