PDA

View Full Version : Flame Imperishable

busybee
10-10-2002, 11:35 AM
I was wondering what is the 'Flame Imperishable'??Why did Melkor want it? smilies/confused.gif
TolkienGurl
10-10-2002, 11:49 AM
I was wondering that too! I just started the Silm last night and had to read it slowly to understand it!
lathspell
10-10-2002, 02:26 PM
I can be wrong in this, but I always thought that the Flame Imperishable was Eä. And Iluvatar said Eä was deep within the planet and therefore I guess that the Flame Imperishable is the planet core.
It is some time since I last read the Silm, but I believe that Melkor thought that that with the F.P. he could create things of his own (as Iluvatar made the Elves), yet he could never find it.

greetings,
lathspell
lindil
10-10-2002, 02:34 PM
According to p. 345 of Morgoth's Ring, note 11 in the Athrabeth Ah Finrod Andreth it is "the Creative activity of Eru" Iluvatar.

In another place i can't locate off the top of my head JRRT more explicitly identifies it w/ the Holy Spirit.
Aiwendil
10-10-2002, 02:37 PM
I think that the Flame Imperishable (which equals the Secret Fire) is the creative force of Iluvatar. From a Christian theological perspective, it is the "Holy Spirit" aspect of God. Melkor makes the mistake of thinking that the creative force is something external, so he goes into the void to look for it. He does not know that it is "with Iluvatar"; i.e., it is Iluvatar.

Two things lead me to this assertion:
1. Iluvatar says to the Ainur: "And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, you shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme . . . " Indicates that it is the Flame Imperishable that allows them to adorn the theme (sub-creation).

2. He says that he shall "send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be", equating the existence of the World (as a physical reality rather than a mere vision) with the fact that it contains the Flame Imperishable.

Edit: Lindil seems to have beaten me to it, posting his reply before I had finished writing. I had forgotten the passage in Morgoth's Ring, but it's good to see that my hypothetical explanation is in fact attested.

[ October 10, 2002: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]
Nils
10-10-2002, 02:41 PM
Both Eru and Aule were able to create creatures. The difference being that Aule's creation did not have free will. Therefore I believe that the Flame Imperishable is what allows a creator to impart free will to his creation.
TolkienGurl
10-10-2002, 02:45 PM
Wow. It sounds like God kindling the flame of the Holy Spirit in the hearts of men, sending them into the Void, or the 'sinful world devoid of hope.' Hmmmm... can't think of a Bible verse... smilies/rolleyes.gif
Helkasir
10-10-2002, 04:29 PM
The Flame Imperishable is Iluvatar, as said many many times above. What I did not get was what Melkor wanted with it. Okay, he wants to make a race. He really doesn't need it; after all, why give a slave free will?
Aiwendil
10-10-2002, 05:20 PM
The Flame Imperishable is Iluvatar, as said many many times above. What I did not get was what Melkor wanted with it. Okay, he wants to make a race. He really doesn't need it; after all, why give a slave free will?

I don't think that Melkor's original desire was to create slaves; he genuinely wanted to create things, like Iluvatar.
Artanis
10-10-2002, 07:44 PM
Iluvatar said Eä was deep within the planet and therefore I guess that the Flame Imperishable is the planet core.
Actually, Ea is the world (I think. It has been a while since I read the Sil.) And I do agree with the veiw that the Flame is like the Holy Spirit. Melkor was jelous of Illuvitar's power and wanted to create, but he could only maim. Don't think that Melkor was just misunderstood, though, it was he that first brought discord to the Great Music.
Helkasir
10-10-2002, 08:34 PM
I don't think that Melkor's original desire was to create slaves; he genuinely wanted to create things, like Iluvatar. I didn't read ainunidale to closely; what drove Melkor to being "Evil?"
Nils
10-10-2002, 08:43 PM
I didn't read ainunidale to closely; what drove Melkor to being "Evil?"

His desire to make his own way. He wanted to create his own music, not Eru's. His desire to control and become king of all. This is the thing that drove Melkor to being 'Evil'.