Gandalf’s speech to the Balrog

[Thingol]

Hello, this is my first post and I'd just like to say hi and that this is a fantastic site.

When Gandalf is facing the Barlog he says to him:

"You cannot pass. I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass."

My question is what exactly is the flame of Anor? Also I have heard conflicting accounts of what the Secret Fire is. I've heard some say he is referring to his ring Narya, but personally I don't think that is right, and I've also heard that he is referring to the fire that Illuvitar used to create EA and set in the center of Arda. I tend to believe this one myself. Any insights would be appreciated.

[ June 22, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

[Airetelluma]

I always thought that the reference of the Secret Fire was to Narya, myself. Very few people know that Gandalf has the ring. Cirdan, Saruman, possibly Elrond or Galadriel (haven't read much on the history of Middle-Earth, so I'm not sure who knows he has it). It's a secret to most people, and it's the fire ring. Secret, fire. Secret, fire. smilies/smile.gif Oh, and welcome! ^_^

[Luineglin]

well the secret flame or the flame of aranor cant remember which but one of them was something Eru made and Morgoroth Looked for along time ago in the Void before the song.
(this is totally wrong of course but i havent had my daily 2 gallons of coffe so im not making much since.)

[Lindolirian]

I believe the Secrect Fire is Narya because it is not common knowledge that Gandalf is its keeper and it is the Ring of Fire. As for the Flame of Anor, Anor is Elvish for sun and in the Silmarillion it tells that the sun was a fruit of one of the Trees of Valinor, Laurelin, I think, and the Sun was guided by one of the Maiar. If Gandalf says he is they servant of the Flame of Anor, maybe back in da day when he was Olorin in Valinor, he worked with, or for this Maia..... That is my theory anyways...
Flame of Udun (what he called the Balrog) signifies that the balrog is an evil fire spirit (Udun is Elvish for hell) i think

[Luineglin]

thanks for i knew nothing of the subject and was trying to sound smart like i do quite often im afraid.

[Thingol]

There are 2 reasons why I do not believe that the secret fire is the ring Narya; which is what Illuvitar hid from Melkor, Luineglin was correct. The first is some textual evidence from the Silmarilion.

"He [Melkor] had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own, and it seemed to him that Iluvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Iluvatar."

Then later in the text:
"Therefore Iluvatar gave to their vision Being, and set it amid the Void, and the Secret Fire was sent to burn at the heart of the World; and it was called Ea."
(Silmarillion)

The Imperishable Flame and the Secret Fire seem to be the same thing; the power of Iluvatar to impart actual Being to his thought. It seems fitting that this would be something that Gandalf (as a Maia sent from the West by the Valar) would "serve" and by contrast it does not seem likely that Gandalf would serve his ring Narya. However, I'm still unclear on what the flame of Arnor is. Gandalf says he is a wielder of the flame of Arnor, and I do not think he is a wielder of the sun =).

[Elrian]

Flame of Anor: The power wielded by Gandalf, possibly an allusion to the white light of the Sun as a symbol of the secret fire.

It wasn't from the ring.

[Voronwe]

I think it very unlikely that Gandalf was refering to his ring when he used the word 'Secret Fire'. As has already been pointed out, Ganalf would not have been a servant of his own ring.

The Secret Fire (also called the Imperishable Flame) is (according to HoME I think) the 'creative activity' of Eru Iluvatar. It seems to be the part of Eru that gives reality to what he creates - thus Melkor's desire to find it in the void, since he wanted to create things of his own. So Gandalf statement that he is a servant of this fire would mean that he is a servant of Eru.

The Flame of Anor could possibly refer to Gandalf's Ring, but I think not. Gandalf kept his ring so secret that I don't think he would ever have refered to it even like this.

-Voronwe

[Elrian]

The Flame of Anor does not refer to the ring, The ring was made by elves and would not have the strength to fend off a Balrog. It could be part of the Flame Imperishable, The Flame of Anor would be the source of power that the Maia and even the Vala have from Iluvatar.

[Luineglin]

thanks glad i was right in some way.

[Thingol]

Thanks for clearing it up.

[Elendur]

The only thing I dont understand is what does "The dark fire will not avail you...". What does that mean?

[obloquy]

The Flame of Anor does not refer to the ring, The ring was made by elves and would not have the strength to fend off a Balrog.

I don't really understand this. How is it that you deduce that the Flame of Anor is not a reference to Narya? The Secret Fire is likely the Flame Imperishable, and Gandalf is a servant of it. But Gandalf says he 'wields' the Flame of Anor. It can only refer to his staff, Narya, or Glamdring.

As for the meaning of "Anor", it's a bit difficult. The Quenya name for the Sun is actually "Anar". It is conceivable that Anor is the Sindarin form of Anar, similar to the Sindarin "Feanor" for Quenya "Feanaro". In this example, "nar" means "fire". Notice "NAR-ya". Confusingly, "nor" is also a Quenya element that means "land" (I believe), such as in Arnor and Valinor.

Without more information, I'd say it's pretty tough to judge what the Flame of Anor actually is. Glamdring was Turgon's sword, and I can see no connection there. Narya seems the most plausible explanation, but I doubt Gandalf would have disclosed that information to the Balrog.

[Voronwe]

I always thought Anor refered to Sun simply because of the translation of Minas Anor - 'Tower of the Sun'.

-Voronwe

[Fenrir]

Thingol, what's a "barlog"?

[Thingol]

Barlogs are fire spirits that served the Valar Melkor, who was Sauron's master in the first age of Middle Earth. In the battle that ended the First Age most of the Barlogs were destroyed, but a few escaped (including the one from the Lord of the Rings) and hid themselves in the deep places of the earth.

[Dwarin Thunderhammer]

I belive you are talking about Balrogs. Barlogs are large pieces of wood at drinking houses. smilies/wink.gif

[Halbarad]

So Gandalf was saying that he was a Maia and therefore had a chance of fighting the Balrog and defeating him? That is what I always thought- that he was saying that he was not a man but a Maia.

[Elrian]

Originally posted by obloquy:
<STRONG>

I don't really understand this. How is it that you deduce that the Flame of Anor is not a reference to Narya? The Secret Fire is likely the Flame Imperishable, and Gandalf is a servant of it. But Gandalf says he 'wields' the Flame of Anor. It can only refer to his staff, Narya, or Glamdring.

As for the meaning of "Anor", it's a bit difficult. The Quenya name for the Sun is actually "Anar". It is conceivable that Anor is the Sindarin form of Anar, similar to the Sindarin "Feanor" for Quenya "Feanaro". In this example, "nar" means "fire". Notice "NAR-ya". Confusingly, "nor" is also a Quenya element that means "land" (I believe), such as in Arnor and Valinor.

Without more information, I'd say it's pretty tough to judge what the Flame of Anor actually is. Glamdring was Turgon's sword, and I can see no connection there. Narya seems the most plausible explanation, but I doubt Gandalf would have disclosed that information to the Balrog.</STRONG>

If Flame of Udun is the Flame of the darkness of Melkor, the Flame of Anor would be the Flame of light. The flame is in them not an object. And not from an Elven ring. Celebrimbor was no Feanor and Feanor couldn't defend himself from a Balrog.

[Elenhin]

Originally posted by Elrian:
<STRONG>If Flame of Udun is the Flame of the darkness of Melkor, the Flame of Anor would be the Flame of light. The flame is in them not an object. And not from an Elven ring. Celebrimbor was no Feanor and Feanor couldn't defend himself from a Balrog.</STRONG>
The "Flame of Anor" basically must refer to an object, because Gandalf says he wields it. Note also the connection between Gandalf's magic powers (which are usually related to dire) and Narya, the Ring of Fire.

[Fenrir]

Not necessarily, the Flame of Anor could be the object, if you take my meaning.

[Rhudladion]

Anger is not an object, yet can it not be used as a weapon and therefore wielded?

As for all the "fire" talk, I am not yet educated enough.

[Cirdan the Shipwright]

Anor definitely means sun (eg - Minas Anor, tower of the setting sun). The way I have always read this passage is that Flame of Anor/Secret Fire refers to the Flame Imperishable, but that the power of the flame is channeled through the ring.

Flame of Udun is definitely a reference to Melkor.

- Cirdan

[Elrian]

The "Flame of Anor" basically must refer to an object, because Gandalf says he wields it. Note also the connection between Gandalf's magic powers (which are usually related to dire) and Narya, the Ring of Fire.

The Flame of Anor did not come from the Elven ring, no Elven ring would have the power to withstand a Balrog. Feanor couldn't withstand a Balrog, how would Celebrimbor be able to empower a ring to? If the Elven ring were the Flame of Anor Gandalf would not have been able to be imprisoned by Saruman, he would have been able to defeat him then and there.

[obloquy]

But it must be something that Gandalf wields. Maybe this is a little insight into the mysterious wizard staff. I agree that it can not be Narya. Gandalf would never have openly referred to the secret ring he bore.

By the way, I stand corrected on my linguistic reasoning. I had forgotten about Minas Anor, and the entry for 'nar' in the Silmarillion's Elements in Quenya and Sindarin Names. Anor is, in fact, the Sindarin translation of Anar, or The Sun. Many of you already knew that. smilies/smile.gif

Udun is Sindarin for Utumno, Melkor's fortress, so that makes perfect sense.

[Elrian]

It could be his own power that he wields. It never said that he came with a talisman out of the west. But you could be right about that.

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

you don't have to be able to swing it round your head in order to "weild" something...I agree with Cirdan

[Larin]

Halbarad - Gandalf is more powerful than the Balrogs for it is stated that he is eqaul in power to Sauron, no more or less...

...of the other 4 Istari i am not sure

[Cirdan the Shipwright]

Where does it say that?

Incidentally, I totally disagree with Feanor fighting the Balrog. Remember, he was overcome by MANY of them. He was the greatest in spirit of any Noldorian elf, and (with perhaps the exception of Ingwe) the mightiest elf of all time.

Besides, other Balrogs were slain by elves (eg - Glorfindel and Echthelion). I think one-on-one Feanor would have been a match for even Gothmog.

-Cirdan / Maglor68

[Elenhin]

Ok, "Flame of Anor" must not refer to an object. But it can.

I never said that Narya was the source of all of Gandalf's fire-powers, or that Narya itself would have been able to defeat the Balrog - but it definitely must have enhanced Gandalf's mastery of fire. What would be the use of a magical Ring of Fire if it didn't enhance the powers of its wielder?

As you say, Elrian, there is a contrast between the "good" flame of Gandalf and the "evil" fire of the Balrog. I didn't mean to say that the "Flame of Anor" necessarily refers only to the ring (school stuff made be a bit hasty), but that Narya was an important part of Gandalf's "Flame of Anor".

"Flame of Anor" definitely wasn't an open reference to the Ring, but that doesn't mean that it cannot contain a hidden reference to it. None of the Fellowship understood it, and I don't think that the Balrog did either - until it faced Gandalf's full powers on the top of Zirak-zigil.

[Fenrir]

I'm not sure about this but I don't think Narya adds to the combat abilility of the wearer. Narya, unlike the other elven rings, makes people more willing to listen to the councils of the bearer and helps him inspire the hearts of men to great deeds. Gandalf may have been aided by the power of Narya when he saved Theoden from dotage.

[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: Fenrir ]

[Elrian]

I think one-on-one Feanor would have been a match for even Gothmog.

Feanor's skill was more in craft than fighting. With the Silmarils he may have defeated Gothmog, without them, very doubtful.

I do think Narya aided Gandalf in his endeavors,like reviving Theoden, but it's power wasn't used or could be used as a defense or against attack.

[skippy]

his ring was also know as the ring of fire.
my question i posted in books 1 is very similar to yours kind of.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

True, the ring wasn't built for fighting with, but it may have still helped Gandalf by lending some of the stored power of the elf-magic that went into it's making. Gandalf was a wise and quite powerful maia, and I am sure that, given this extra power, he would be able to bend it to aid him somewhat in fighting the Balrog.

The 'Flame of Anor' could be just a cause.
Flame of Udun - he dark cause of Morgoth/Sauron.

Flame of Anor - the cause of the sun, the 'light' cause of the West.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

True, the ring wasn't built for fighting with, but it may have still helped Gandalf by lending some of the stored power of the elf-magic that went into it's making. Gandalf was a wise and quite powerful maia, and I am sure that, given this extra power, he would be able to bend it to aid him somewhat in fighting the Balrog.

The 'Flame of Anor' could be just the cause that Gandalf fought for.
Flame of Udun - he dark cause of Morgoth/Sauron.

Flame of Anor - the cause of the sun, the 'light' cause of the West.

[Aiwendil]

The Flame of Anor may well be the Secret Fire. In the Ainulindale, Iluvatar says that he has kindled the Ainur with the Flame Imperishable; this is why they are able to show forth their creative powers in adorning his theme. Gandalf could thus be said to wield the Flame Imperishable/Secret Fire. As for why he should refer to this as the Flame of Anor, I'm not sure. Might there be some relation between the Sun (Anor) and the Flame Imperishable (other, of course, than the fact that the entire world was created by the Flame Imperishable)?

[Joy]

"You cannot pass. I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass."

I just want to bump this to the top, if I don't I'll never find it tomorrow. I want to write some on the Ring, Eru Illuvitar, and the Secrect Fire.

[Birdland]

OK I got out my trusty Tolkien Companion(the Cliff Notes of Middle Earth), looked up "Flame of Anor", which cross referenced me to "Secret Fire".

"Secret Fire - The Flame of Anor, a mystical aspect of the Sun, greatest visible power in Creation. The order of Istari (Wizards)formally swore obedience to the "Secret Fire"" (italics mine)

So if all the Wizards swore by "The Secret Fire", that would indicate that it is not the Ring Narya, wouldn't it?

Can anyone site chapter and verse on this vow of obedience, or is J.E.A. Tyler just way off?

[Joy]

smilies/redface.gif Please forgive me for not posting my thoughts in this subject as of yet. I have been busy with tech support smilies/eek.gif, several people's computers have crashed today. I have not had time to compile my essay. Tomorrow looks better, I pray no more systems crash and I get called away to repair them.

[Elendur]

"Secret Fire - The Flame of Anor, a mystical aspect of the Sun, greatest visible power in Creation. The order of Istari (Wizards)formally swore obedience to the "Secret Fire"

This confuses me. The Secret Fire is the Flame Imperishable Eru sent to create Ea, the world that is. This quote is saying that the Flame of Anor (The Sun) is the Flame Imperishable? That is wrong.

The Sun was created from a fruit that dropped from Laurelin before it died. And the sun is lead through the sky by the Maia, Arien. So how could it be the Flame Imperishable (Secret Fire)?

We all agree that The Secret Fire is The Flame Imperishable. But when Gandalf says he is a weilder of the flame of Anor, I always thought he meant Narya because it is a ring of fire. But I see that this is probably implausible. Like you have said already, I dont think Gandalf would tell this to the Balrog and the ring was not created for power in the sense that Gandalf could use it to fight.

So I am very confused. When Gandalf says he is a weilder of the power of the sun, I cannot understand this. I guess you could be right, Aiwendil. Maybe the Sun is related somehow to the Flame Imperishable and maybe is a source of power. That just doesn't seem right, though. The great lamps were the original sources of light, and then the two trees. The Sun is only a part of the power of Laurelin and it is said in the Silmarillion "The sun was set as a sign of awakening for men, and of waning for the elves...". So it seems odd to me that the thing that caused the elves to leave Middle Earth would be used as a source of power for a Maia.

But then again the Sun showed great power against Morgoth. He feared the Sun and its brightness and because of it, Melkor hid from the day. And even in Dagor Dagorath Melkor attacks the Sun. So obviously he sees it as his main enemy. I think the effect of the Sun would be the same on Sauron as well.

I think I have asked so many questions that I have gotten an answer without any help. I think, now, that when Gandalf says weilder of the Flame of Anor he means that he has the power of the Sun that even Melkor, the Balrogs master!, was scared of. What do you guys think? Have I solved this mystery? Do you understand what Im talking about? Tell me what you think.

But I still have a question. What does "The dark fire will not avail you" mean?

[Joy]

Gandalf’s speech to the Balrog

You cannot pass. I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass."


As a project for research I found this very interesting. I have not read far into the books, I should say, only the Trilogy and The Hobbit - (the first 4 chapters at that time). But gathering information for this I have relied on quotes of others, knowledge of Tolkien, and other Middle Age style writings.

It is stated by obloquy that “Nar” means FIRE. Thus stated, then Narya is the Ring of Fire. Yet, I do not believe that Narya is the Secret Fire that Gandalf spoke of. It is stated in the appendix that Cirdan the Shipwright gave Narya to Gandalf. If this is true, then Gandalf’s ring was an Elven Ring. The Elven Rings were hidden, only those who possessed (and the others who possessed the rings) knew. Though it is interesting that Glorifindel, (supposed to be Galadriel), revealed her ring to Frodo and Samwise. Nevertheless, let us get back to the topic at hand.

May we take a deviation from the books to explore the elements of the statement? What is Gandalf? He is a Wizard, a Maia. Some have stated that he reminds them of the Old Testament Prophets. To me he seems like Elijah of Old. Let us take a look at that prophet of the Bible.

IKing 18:22-40
Then said Elijah unto the people, I, even I only, remain a prophet of the LORD; but Baal's prophets are four hundred and fifty men.
Let them therefore give us two bullocks; and let them choose one bullock for themselves, and cut it in pieces, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under: and I will dress the other bullock, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under:
And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken.
And Elijah said unto the prophets of Baal, Choose you one bullock for yourselves, and dress it first; for ye are many; and call on the name of your gods, but put no fire under.
And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made.
And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.
And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them.
And it came to pass, when midday was past, and they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that there was neither voice, nor any to answer, nor any that regarded.
And Elijah said unto all the people, Come near unto me. And all the people came near unto him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD that was broken down.
And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the LORD came, saying, Israel shall be thy name:
And with the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD: and he made a trench about the altar, as great as would contain two measures of seed.
And he put the wood in order, and cut the bullock in pieces, and laid him on the wood, and said, Fill four barrels with water, and pour it on the burnt sacrifice, and on the wood.
And he said, Do it the second time. And they did it the second time. And he said, Do it the third time. And they did it the third time.
And the water ran round about the altar; and he filled the trench also with water.
And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.
Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again.
Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.
And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The LORD, he is the God; the LORD, he is the God.
And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there.

I am sure that most of you are familiar with this account. Did you notice something though? Elijah spoke. This is the Word of Command that he spoke. By the Word of Command, Elijah called down fire, by the Word of Command Elijah kept the heavens from raining for 3 ½ yrs.

In LotR, Gandalf is the servant of the Secret Fire. I believe that this show that he is the servant of the One who holds the Fire. He acts like the One that holds the Fire, for he is His ambassador.

The next question posed is “Who is the One who holds the Secret Fire?” Voronwestates that The Secret Fire (also called the Imperishable Flame) is (according to HoME I think) the 'creative activity' of Eru Iluvatar.

It has been stated by many on this board and other Tolkien fans elsewhere that the story of Eru Iluvatar and the creation of Ea, that this, of all things that Tolkien describe, was closest to the Biblical account of the Creation.

Gen 1:1-3
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Silmarillion
"Therefore Iluvatar gave to their vision Being, and set it amid the Void, and the Secret Fire was sent to burn at the heart of the World; and it was called Ea."
In the Scriptures, the Spirit of God, The Holy Spirit, is often represented by Fire or a Flame (Ex 3:2-12, Ex 13:21 Jer 23:29, Matt 3:11, and Act 2:3).

In summary, I know that I used a Scriptural basis for my argument, and I know that Tolkien did not like allegories, but because of his Faith, I do believe that he may unconsciously placed some messages in the books. I believe that Gandalf was a servant of Eru Iluvatar and that He held the Secret Flame, the Imperishable Flame, which is the creative power. By Gandalf being His servant, His ambassador, he had the power to speak the things into existence with the Word of Command. It seems that the thing that he was wielding was his tongue. This contained, his words, the Secret Fire.

Also, just noticed that someone asked what was the Flame of Udûn. Jude 7, states that there is an eternal fire for the damned, the Shadow of eternal death. I believe that this is the Flame of Udûn, the dark fire.

[ June 20, 2002: Message edited by: Joy ]

[Elendur]

Very nice points, Joy. Though text from the Bible cant be used to prove points in Tolkiens canon, it is interesting to see the similarities. And let me say, that for only having read The Hobbit and The Lord of The Rings you are very knowledgable.

I just wanted to point out though, that when you said Glorfindel showed Sam her ring, you really mean Galadriel. The names are easy to get mixed up sometimes. Glorfindel was an Elf Lord (male) that lived in the house of Imladris (Rivendell). Galadriel was the Lady of The Wood (Lorien) who held one of the Elven Rings like you said.

[Lhundael]

As it is known, Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, and a number of others were the Istari, a special group of Maia sent to contest the power of Sauron. They, origionally, were not not allowed to match him power for power, until Gandalf die and was resurrected. The "secret fire" is referring to Illuvitar's Imperishable Flame. smilies/cool.gif

[Man-of-the-Wold]

I'd confirm all that's been said, and just add that in a moment of confrontation with the Balrog, Gandalf should not be expected to be pedantically precise with his expressions.

In general he is at that moment drawing on his linkage to all that is good and powerful, right to Ilúvatar, to whom through Manwe he is faithful as Olórin. So, it is not about the Ring of Fire or his regular Wizardly ways, by which his Maiarian origins are usually suppressed.

The "flame of Anor" is, perhaps, some spur of the moment piece of poetic license to punctuate the powerful reference to the Secret Fire, which the Balrog cannot overcome; the bottom-line being that you will not get to the Ringbearer! Anor is a word for the Sun at that time (what else, who knows for sure?) But, through Laurelin the Sun is derived from the power of the Ainur, which comes from the Flame Imperishable and thus, Ilúvatar whom they serve.

Also, Westron may not have offered any better references by which Gandalf could make his command and convey his will at the Balrog. It did not seem that Middle-Earthers had a very developed understanding of the Metaphysics behind their World.

The flame of Udûn is a case in point. He is essentially calling the Balrog a Fire of Hell. As a fire demon this is figuratively indisputable. But we really never get much information at all about what "hell" for Arda might be, beyond Melkor as Lucifer-like, and his fortresses not unlike the Underworld. Indeed, the story of Beren and Lúthien is not without echoes of Orpheus. How the Balrogs might fully relate to any such notion of Hell is just a mystery of Tolkien's imagination.

Also, to use the Bible is always a sound way to understand any number of writers, including many who were never anywhere near as pious as Tolkien. One does not need to have fully structured allegories to be greatly influenced by the majesty of the Bible. Both Gandalf and Elrond (to name only two characters) seem reminiscent at times of Hebraic, Hellenistic, Apostolic and Saintly forebears or perpetuators of Early Christianity, as opposed to pagan-like mystics with which they might superficially be compared.

Indeed, Tolkien was in many ways trying to cast pre-Christian (or at least pre-Norman and pre-Carolingian) images and traditions from Northern Europe in a light that were fully amenable to Judeo-Christian ethics and values. A real legendary base for the English.

In summary, I think that with Gandalf and the Balrog, as well as in other places in The Lord of the Rings (e.g., Eye of Sauron, the Redhorn, the Sun on Mount Mindolluin,) fire stands for good or evil in ways not unlike Biblical verses. I can even think of a few Burning (albeit consumed) Bushes.

[Jessica Jade]

This is a wonderful thread! Thanks for all the great info and points everyone!

I agree that the Flame of Anor is the Flame Imperishable. It makes perfect sense. Melkor, the greatest of the Valar, desired to posess it because he wanted to be God (or Eru, in this case) and shape the universe according to his will. He was, of course, unsuccessful in his search for this Fire of Creation, and that maybe have greatly spurred his arrogance and rebellion, thinking that since he was the greatest Vala, he should rightfully posess the Flame.

I believe that the Flame can also be symbolic as well as literal. By the will of Ilúvatar, all evil is turned to good in the end, and he is pure good, through and through. By declaring that he is a servant of it, Gandalf is indeed saying that he faithfully serves Eru, and works solely for the good of the universe. The Flame of Anor, the Flame Imperishable,the fire of creation could represent what is light, or all existing goodness. Ilúvatar sent the Istari to help Middle Earth in the most desperate, urgent time of need, and it makes sense that they would swear allegiance to him (Ilúvatar) as well as swear allegiance that they were fighting for the good, light side; they were fighting to defeat darkness in order for good (which was Eru's will) to prevail.

I know that this may sound really crazy, but maybe when Gandalf said "The dark fire shall not avail you, Flame of Undûn, he meant that the Flame Imperishible is dark in that it is very powerful and good and it will overcome the evil of Melkor and all his devices. I don't know. It's just a thought- just my personal interpretation.

[ June 20, 2002: Message edited by: Jessica Jade ]

[NicktheOrc]

smilies/smile.gif Maybe "The Flame Of Anor" has to do with Minas Tirith, since it was once Minas Anor before Minas Ithil became Minas Morgul. smilies/smile.gif

[Fingolfin of the Noldor]

Hey guys, something came up which was rather interesting and I think relevant to this when discussing a related issue and I thought you guys might find this an other factor rather interesting and perhaps a further point of debate. I will repost a portion my response where I put forth a specific possibility:

Perhaps, though, the question should be: Did Gandalf need to speak? If memory serves, the primary course of communication(being more exact than language), among the incarnated Ainur was that of the mind. Tolkien wrote on this issue a number of times as in texts published in Morgoth's Ring(some hints can even be found in the published silm interestingly enough), the Notion Club Papers, Vinyar Tengwar, and the War of the Jewels and though I don't have any of these in front of me at the moment I believe he may have mentioned the use of language being used in the presence of the children of Iluvatar for their benifit not so much as it was necessary. On the other hand, though I don't have any basis for this, perhaps Gandalf was using language to enunciate given his human(and hence rather obstructive) form. Tolkien in his letters says that Balrog's do not speak but maybe, just maybe alot more was being said in the scene then we know. I apologize for rambling this is a really interesting issue.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Oh, dear, my head is spinning with all these fires and flames.

Even the folk who wrote the guide-books seem uncertain about a lot of this.

This is from Robert Forster:

"Udun" means the source of the dark flame of the Balrogs, "possibly Utomno", "possibly the darkness of the Spirit of Melkor. Udun in Sindarin means "un-West". It means the same as "Utumno" which is "not-valley" in Quenya. Utumno is the first dwelling of Melkor in Arda.

Getting confused? Here's more:

Flame Imperishable: the creating spirit of Iluvatar, by which the Ainur and Ea were made, possessed by Iluvatar alone. "Also called the Imperishable Flame, the Fire, and perhaps the Flame of Anor" (nice hedging there!) See also Secret Fire

Secret Fire: the Holy Spirit, the power giving substance and life to the Creation of Iluvatar. "It was this light, also called the Flame of Anor (perhaps loosely) that Gandalf served, and the evil followers of Melkor and Sauron envid and feared.) (Me--that perhaps loosely means they fdged again.)
Most probably the same as the Flame Imperishable.

Now my head hurts even more.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit.

[Thingol]

In the section about the Istari in the Unfinished Tales it says that the Istari all swore allegiance to the sun, which was a representation of the power of Iluvatar. Although how the sun is a representation of the power of Iluvatar escapes me. As has been said the sun is the last fruit that the tree of Laurelin bore. It was set in a vessel, hallowed by the Valar, and guarded by the Maia Arien. The only reason I could think of, for the sun being a symbol of Iluvatar, is it is the brightest object in Middle Earth; it mirrors the flame imperishable that Iluvatar set to burn in the center of Ea. Although the sun is a relatively new creation, compared to the flame imperishable at least. So in effect, Gandalf is a wielder of the power of Iluvatar and also a servant of it.

[Nar]

This is a very interesting thread!

I think Gandalf's words on the bridge were actually blows in a battle that had already been joined. Wizards use words of command, as well as channeling power through staffs and so forth. I do not believe Gandalf would have repeated himself-- each word he spoke, he spoke to repel the Balrog's attack. From the moment the Balrog laid its hand on the door of the chamber, they had been joined in a bitter battle of spirit and will as well as sword and whip, with a brief respite while the Balrog shook off the cave-in and Gandalf and the company fled to the bridge. Therefore, I don't believe Gandalf had the leisure to say anything twice, essentially, 'I am a servant of the [flame imperishable], wielder of the [flame imperishable].' I think that one of those terms referred to the flame imperishable, but not both. Wasting words during a duel of Maias would be suicide. I do think 'Secret Fire' refers to the flame imperishable. I think that 'Flame of Anor' refers to Narya, the ring of fire.

Why would Gandalf refer to a secret ring in the presence of his bitter enemy? To direct its power at that enemy. 'I'd tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.' That was Gandalf's plan in a nutshell. Either the Balrog's knowledge of Narya would die with him, or Gandalf himself would die. (In the event, it was both.) If Gandalf had died and the Balrog lived, it would have found and looted Narya whether Gandalf mentioned it or not, just as the one ring was looted from Sauron's body.

Narya's power: Celebrimbor might not have been a match for Feanor, but he made the three using knowledge he had gained from Sauron, although Sauron never touched or corrupted the rings. Sauron was a match for Feanor. Could Galadriel have held the borders of Lorien against a Balrog using Nenya? I think she might have had a shot. Narya's power was directed at rekindling hope and reviving determination. Much of the power of the minions of Morgoth, Sauron and the Balrogs, as well as the minions of Sauron was in their will and negative spirit. The Nazgul killed most terribly by sending their vicims into a lethal delusion of despair with the Black breath. Most of what we hear of the Balrogs is pure physical badness, whips of fire, etc, but given that they are defined as corrupted spirits, I think that the negative force of their charisma was as deadly a weapon as their whips of fire. It's similar to the way few orcs could withstand the sight of Aragorn's face in battle. So, if the Balrog's power at the spirit-level is a force of concentrated despair, similar to the Black Breath but more powerful, then a ring that rekindles the flame of hope might be very effective. So, on that bridge, Gandalf was simultaneously parrying both the Balrog's flaming sword and shadow of despair with Glamdring and the fire of Narya, and all this whilst preparing to cut the stones from under his enemy's feet.

[ June 22, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

[ June 22, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

[Boffer]

From what I've gathered,,,,,
When Gandalf says he is the "Wielder of the flame of Anor." He is referring to his sword Glamdring. And Anor simply means Minas Anor(later Minas Tirith). I believe I read this in one of the HOME but i'm not sure which one. Anyone else have an oppinion on this?

[Daniel Telcontar]

Some people thinks that Anor and/or the flame of Anor has its name because of the cityname of Minas Anor, but it is the reverse. It is the cityname that comes from the word Anor, meaning sun. And I doubt there is any power in Minas Anor, that could have helped Gandalf when he was duelling a balrog. It is probably correct when assumed that the flame of Anor has something to do with either Ilúvatar or the Valar, since they are the only one with the power to help him at that time.

[Boffer]

AAAHhh,,,,that does make more sense. Since we're all talkin bout maias ,, i have a question. Is it possible that hte Watcher In The Water could be a maia enigma as ungoliant? IF anyone has any information on the Watcher In The Water please respond.

[Joy]

This is one of the classic threads that I don't want to see die smilies/smile.gif

This thread might answer a few questions that I see coming up now.

[lindil]

Elendur, your idea is certainly plausible.

"What does "The dark fire will not avail you" mean?


I think Gandalf was simply saying that " You know the 'light' of morgoth will prevail over the Light of Eru.

[doug*platypus]

The most enlightening part of Joy's biblical meanderings were the part at the end:

Jude 7, states that there is an eternal fire for the damned, the Shadow of eternal death. I believe that this is the Flame of Udûn, the dark fire.

Excellent point - I hadn't thought about Hell before, because as far as I know there is no Hell as such in Middle-Earth's afterlife. Hell is embodied by Mordor, or by Angband/Utumno/Anfauglith. But we may possibly infer that there was a Hell, or a Dark Fire, that the Balrogs served. Perhaps they were some kind of cult worshipping this Dark Fire. They certainly seem to be quite distinct from the more powerful Sauron, who embodied many forms. And from what Gandalf says, as soon as they are destroyed they will "go back to the abyss prepared for [them] and their master".

Possibly Melkor/Morgoth made a Dark Fire in mockery of the Flame Imperishable that he could not find? Perhaps this thing was real, and in Utumno/Angband, and possibly later Barad-Dur (although the Balrogs were really servants of Morgoth, and after his defeat fled and hid instead of serving Sauron).

It seems almost crystal clear that Gandalf as a servant of Iluvatar was a servant of the Secret Fire/Flame Imperishable, an authority that could be held only by the Ainur that descended into Ea. The Flame of Anor is more cryptic because he is said to be its "wielder". It seems likely to me, though, that this is an extension of the Flame Imperishable theme, and the acknowledgment that he has been given power to exercise his authority. Possibly Saruman or the other Istari could have claimed the same, although it is unlikely they would have done so. Saruman may have tried to persuade the Balrog to join him, or at least not to hurt him. I'd like to see what Radagast would've done! Run home to momma, I think. I think that Gandalf by saying that the Dark Fire "will not avail" the Balrog is saying the equivalent of "my dad can beat up your dad", and hoping that since he serves a higher and more powerful purpose, he will win.

Which echoes what Nar was saying about the power of words in Gandalf's magic. I think his whole spiel was a form of taunting, and an attempt to empower himself, like "I think I can, I think I can!" The little wizard that could. And he did. Go Gandalf! Also, I don't think that he could have communicated telepathically with the Balrog. They weren't really on the same wavelength. cf Gandalf's words to Frodo about Bilbo and Gollum having some kind of understanding, since they were so similar.

[InklingElf]

I think Gandalf was simply saying that " You know the 'light' of morgoth will prevail over the Light of Eru.

The light of Morgoth will prevail over the Light of Eru? Did you mean that or was it a mistake? Well, whatever you mean I think it was the complete opposite. You know the Light of Eru will prevail over the dark fire of Morgoth

Lindil:Sorry if I misunderstood your meaning smilies/confused.gif I'm afraid my comprehension skills aren't working so well today.

From what I've gathered,,,,,
When Gandalf says he is the "Wielder of the flame of Anor." He is referring to his sword Glamdring. And Anor simply means Minas Anor(later Minas Tirith). I believe I read this in one of the HOME but i'm not sure which one. Anyone else have an oppinion on this?

Glamdring? Well it could be a possibility but consider this: Glamdring (as we recall from The Hobbit) was a weapon stolen by the Cave Trolls and as Elrond says means 'Foehammer'.

Anor:The name for the Sun in the Sindarin language. It appears in many names, including Minas Anor (correct!), the original name for Minas Tirith, meaning 'Tower of the Setting Sun'. It is also seen in the flower-name elanor, 'sunstar', and in the title Gandalf claimed for himself on the Bridge of Khazad-dûm, 'wielder of the flame of Anor'.

In the section about the Istari in the Unfinished Tales it says that the Istari all swore allegiance to the sun, which was a representation of the power of Iluvatar. Although how the sun is a representation of the power of Iluvatar escapes me. As has been said the sun is the last fruit that the tree of Laurelin bore. It was set in a vessel, hallowed by the Valar, and guarded by the Maia Arien. The only reason I could think of, for the sun being a symbol of Iluvatar, is it is the brightest object in Middle Earth; it mirrors the flame imperishable that Iluvatar set to burn in the center of Ea. Although the sun is a relatively new creation, compared to the flame imperishable at least. So in effect, Gandalf is a wielder of the power of Iluvatar and also a servant of it.

I strongly agree.

This is one of the classic threads that I don't want to see die

[Dain]

Well, I think this has gone back and forth a lot, but I'll add my voice.

Reading the Silmarillion, you learn that the sun (unlike in many other mythologies) is basically left-over from the original lights of the world, the trees in Valinor, and so saying he wields "the fire of the sun" may mean that he wields the power of "good" fire related to the trees, but I don't think it can be the same thing as the Secret Fire/Flame Imperishable that he is a servant of. That, basically, means he's a servant of life, good, and the wishes of Illuvatar and Manwe, who sent him to ME. As has been noted, this is all a powerful contrast with the flame of Udun and his dark fire. Has to be one of my favorite scenes in the books, and definitely my fave from the films.

About the ring, he never seems to use it, and Elven rings (well, even the One) are usually more subtle than simple flame-enhancing weaponry. I bet it doesn't hurt to have it, though... He doesn't wear it in the film, though, maybe PJ forgot about it. Galadriel has hers (in the extended version). smilies/confused.gif

About Feanor vs. Balrogs, and Gandalf vs. Balrog as well: Maiar (and even Valar) are much closer in power to elves and men than we tend to think (at least, physical, fighting power). At least, no-one ('cept maybe Eru) can "snap his fingers and make someone disappear" in an omnipotent sort of way. I mean, Fingolfin fights Morgoth and wounds him and resists his strength pretty impressively. But then, Fingolfin is a bad mother... for an elf. smilies/wink.gif

[ February 14, 2003: Message edited by: Dain ]

[InklingElf]

You're cool Dain smilies/smile.gif .

I don't think PJ forgot about the Ring of Fire......Maybe it might be in ROTK?

About Feanor vs. Balrogs, and Gandalf vs. Balrog as well: Maiar (and even Valar) are much closer in power to elves and men than we tend to think (at least, physical, fighting power). At least, no-one ('cept maybe Eru) can "snap his fingers and make someone disappear" in an omnipotent sort of way. I mean, Fingolfin fights Morgoth and wounds him and resists his strength pretty impressively. But then, Fingolfin is a bad mother... for an elf.

Quite true.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

I'm not so certain Gandalf is so close to the sun, so to speak. I'd tend to say by wielding the flame of Anor, he meant the ring, because from an 'elemental' standpoint, he as Olorin was a servant and helper of Manwe, who was the lord of winds. This of course explains Gandalf's friendship with the great Eagles, (though as Gandalf the Istari he is somewhat different from Olorin). Limited to the confines of human physicality, he could not truly wield flame in the same manner one would expect, although in "The Hobbit" he threw down bolts of flame at the howling Wargs and ignited and killed tons of them. But spirit of fire, he is not. Which is why I tended to say the ring Narya, is the flame of Anor. Of course, Vilya was not the water droplet of Anor, nor was Nenya the Adamant of Anor, so it doesn't truly make sense. Of course, the Balrog is flame of Udun, because Balrogs have always represented ravaging fires, and they dwelt in Hell (whether the depths of the earth, or Utumno, or of the later wastes and gates of Angband. Udun is another name for the great volcanic ring that acted as the gates to Mordor, but Sauron was not in command of any of the Valaraukar, ever, for his own purposes. Servant of the Secret Fire? This could not refer to his being Istari, as Radagast was sent to deal more specifically with nature, while Gandalf specialized in aiding Men (and Hobbits), and Saruman elves. So what secret fire, did he serve? The sun was hardly a secret, his ring however, was kept secret until the very end, so I'll say again I tend to believe that the ring is what he refers to.