Balrogs, yet again.

[Lostkano]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 1</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
I just finished Fellowship o' the ring, so I don't know the whole story, but I have a question. In the mines of moria, the Balrog overcame Gandalf (A far as I knew, but I doubt he actually died). Does that mean that Balrog is stronger than an Istari(wizard)? I thought that the Istari were supposed to be the counteractive force which would balance out evil in middle earth. But that would mean that even just a SERVANT of the dark lord is stronger than the most powerful of the Istari sent to Middle-Earth. Is this true, or am I just stinkin' confused?

Lostkano-

&quot;...and with that the Bow of Galadriel sung with pleasure at being a weapon against the enemy. A dead silence fell over the fray as the magical arrow met it's target, and a smile crept over the face of the bow's holder, Lostkano...&quot;

</p>

[Sharkû]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hungry Ghoul
Posts: 1003</TD><TD><img src=http://www.tolkiens-legacy.de/draugen2.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Balrogs, yet again.

It's practically impossible to answer this question without giving away nasty spoilers about The Two Towers and Return of the King. But there your questions will be answered.
Nevertheless here are some other points: as Gandalf said, facing the Balrog: '...and already I am weary!'. While on the other hand the Balrog was too mighty for Sauron to control - he was an evil creature of ages past, a servant of the Dark Lord of whom Sauron was but a lieutenant.

'Who travels widely needs his wits about him / The stupid should stay offline'</p>

[Estelmo]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 2</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Balrogs, yet again.

The whole problem is that you apparently haven't yet read &quot;Silmarilion&quot;. Once you do that you'll find a lot more about balrogs - at the least they are equal to the istary.

</p>

[whiteone]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 9</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Balrogs, yet again.

yep and when you finish the 3 books

<CENTER> http://1118gal.homestead.com/files/whitebanner5.jpg
Come Visit the White Council
Where Evil Dares not come
<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/councilwhite/" TARGET="_black"> <FONT text-align="center" font-family="Tahoma, Arial" color="#ffffff" font-size="8pt">Click here to jorney to my chamber.</A>
The White shall reign</p>

[Ulumuri]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 2</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Ad: Balrogs, yet again.

Suilaid.

The Balrogs belong to the same order as the Istari (and Sauron, also), the Maiar. If by Dark Lord, you mean Sauron, then no, they're not His servants. They serve Morgoth, who was responsible for their corruption. Also Gandalf is probabky not 'the most powerful Istari'. That honour is hard to award, for each Istari has skills of their own. However, Saruman, being the oldest and presumably the wisest, is usually assumed to be the most powerful of the Istari, and was the head of the White Council besides.

</p>

[Theodred21]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Phantom Rider
Posts: 1211</TD><TD><img src=http://www.jrrtolkien.org.uk/Graphics/Buttons/torch.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Ad: Balrogs, yet again.

Welcome to The Barrow-Downs Ulumuri! <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

<center>http://pub39.ezboard.com/brohan73264Rohan!</a>~http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiThe Barrow-Downs!</a>~http://pub75.ezboard.com/barda61763The Tolkien Discussion Board!</a>~http://pub89.ezboard.com/btolkienrealmTolkien Realm!</a>~http://pub73.ezboard.com/btheminesofmoriaMoria-The Black Chasm!</a>~http://pub89.ezboard.com/bdutchenglishcoorporationfortolkienfansDutch-English Coorporation for Tolkien Fans!</a></center><marquee> Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising, he rode singing in the sun, sword unsheathing. Hope he rekindled, and in hope ended; over death, over dread, over doom lifted out of loss, out of life, unto long glory! </marquee></p>

[Halbarad]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 47</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Ad: Balrogs, yet again.

Gandalf had an unfair advantage having his little ring so I would say that he would have been the most powerful. As for Saruman being the wisest, you may recall that he fell into folly early on...

"A little people, but of great worth are the Shire-folk. Little do they know of our long labour for the safekeeping of their borders, and yet I grudge it not."</p>

[Hunter Two One]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 9</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Ad: Balrogs, yet again.

as the balrog's nature has already been mentioned, i don't think it would hurt to mention a bit more and it doesn't spoil the story ,uch) ...

in the fellowship of the ring, a hint of the balrog's and gandalf's lineage would be discerned. Gandalf says as a challenge to the balrog whom he called &quot;Flame of Udun&quot; (in reference to the underworld, being a servant of Morgoth - the first dark lord who was greater than Sauron),

&quot;... I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor ...&quot;

the Secret Fire as mentioned in the Silmarillion, was the &quot;imperishable flame&quot; sent by Iluvatar (or Eru, The One) to burn at the &quot;heart of the world&quot;. &quot;Flame of Anor&quot; may be in reference to the elven ring Narya (Fire) being that Anor is the Sindarin for &quot;Sun&quot;. by saying that he (Gandalf) was a servant of the secret fire, he was informing the balrog that even if they were both Maiar, he was more powerful because (1) he was a &quot;handpicked&quot; servant of Eru and (2) his powers were enhanced (by the flame of anor).

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 977</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Ad: Balrogs, yet again.

Halbarad, the Elven Ring would have helped little in the battle with the Balrog. The properties of the Elven Rings were preservation, healing and inspiration. They were of little use in battle or domination of a foe.

Hunter, I have suggested elsewhere on these boards that the &quot;wielder of the flame of Anor&quot; may mean that Gandalf was a Maian spirit of fire, in nature similar to the Balrogs but uncorrupted. I have little support for this, but I don't think he meant the Elven Ring for the reasons discussed above. Just throwing this in for discussion purposes.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Elenhin]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 52</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Ad: Balrogs, yet again.

On Gandalf's Elven Ring:
While it is stated in LotR and other places that the Elven-Rings were of no use in a battle, can it be absolutely so? We know that Narya had the power to &quot;rekindle the flame in the hearts of the Free Peoples&quot; (or something like that) and Gandalf seemed to have taken advantage of that power during the siege of Minas Tirith. Could it be possible that the Ring encouraged Gandalf and discouraged the Balrog?

We also know that Gandalf did lots of fire-magic (fireworks, naur an edraith ammen etc.) and that Galadriel did lots of water-magic (the Phial, the Mirror)... and that Gandalf wore the Ring of Fire and Galadriel the Ring of Water. To me this suggests that the powers of the Three Rings may not have been only in preservation and healing - there must have been something which made Narya different from Nenya and Vilya after all.

About Gandalf as a fire-spirit:
Wasn't it said in the Silmarillion that Olorin was a pupil of Lorien and that he often listened to Nienna? I haven't usually connected these two Valar to fire in any way.

Also note that while Gandalf calls the Balrog a &quot;flame of Udun&quot; he says that he's a &quot; servant of the Secret Fire&quot; and the &quot; wielder of the Flame of Anor&quot; (not that he's a fire himself, like the Balrog).


I always took the &quot;wielder of the flame of Anor&quot; as a reference to Narya and connected Gandalf's fire magic to the Ring, not to his original Maia-nature.
Not that my impressions are necessarily correct, but I just wanted to throw in my thoughts as well.

--
Elenhin

"My god, it's full of stars!"</p>

[Hunter Two One]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 12</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Ad: Balrogs, yet again.

i am of the same &quot;mind&quot; as Elenhin because if Gandalf were a spirit of fire himself (just as the balrog was), i don't think that he would've said that he wielded the flame of Anor. the only thing he wielded was Narya which is why i think flame of Anor may be in reference to Narya.

however, come to think of it, since his powers are mostly fire-related, it could also be possible that he refered to himself being a Maiar who wields fire as a weapon, too.

anyway, let me think about it and read some more ...

</p>

[Gilthalion]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hobbitus Emeritus
Posts: 621</TD><TD><img src=http://home.att.net/~robertwgardner/lotrmap.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Ad: Balrogs, yet again.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> While it is stated in LotR and other places that the Elven-Rings were of no use in a battle, can it be absolutely so?<hr></blockquote>

If it is so stated, then yes! By definition, as the writer defined it. The properties of Narya were not such that one could throw fireballs or lightning with it. In that it &quot;kindled&quot; spirits to valour, then it had uses in battle, but it was evidently not of any direct use.

<center><table><tr><td width=250><marquee><font face=verdana size=1> http://www.barrowdowns.comBarrow-Downs</a>~I help out around this site, the premier destination for lovers of the writings of J.R.R. Tolkien!</marquee></td></tr><tr><td width=250><marquee><font face=verdana size=1>http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000Bare Bones</a>~A place where I initially put a lot of Middle-earth and Modern-earth musings. </marquee></td></tr><tr><td width=250><marquee><font face=verdana size=1> http://pub41.ezboard.com/btarostineruhirTar Ost-in-Eruhir</a>~The City of God: A forum for Christian fans of Middle-earth.</marquee></td></tr><tr><td width=250><marquee><font face=verdana size=1> http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000/gilthalion.htmlGrand Adventures</a>~This is where you can listen to me read from Tolkien's finest scenes in RealAudio.</marquee></td></tr><tr><td width=250><marquee><font face=verdana size=1>http://www.barrowdowns.com/FanFicHobbits00.asp?Size=The Hobbits</a>~It's almost finished! A full length fan novel set some time after the War of the Ring! Meet many old and new friends as you visit Middle-earth again!</marquee></td></tr><tr><td width=250><marquee><font face=verdana size=1>http://www.tolkientrail.comTolkien Trail</a>~A great fansite with plenty to offer, including ENTMOOT, another fine forum.</marquee></td></tr></table></center></p>

[Elenhin]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 53</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Ad: Balrogs, yet again.

I am, of course, not suggesting fireballs or lightnings (in the fashion of D&amp;D-style fantasy writers) but other - fire-related -powers than just healing and preservation.

It seems to me that Gandalf was using his Ring very differently than Elrond and Galadriel. They were helping their communities to fight the growing world-weariness, but Gandalf didn't have any such use for his Ring as he didn't stay in any place for a long time. Therefore, if the Ring really was so significant as the story claims, I believe that the Ring must have something to do with Gandalf's &quot;magic powers&quot; (when talking about Middle-Earth, &quot;magic&quot; isn't exactly the right word I think - it has nasty connections to D&amp;D-style magic which has nothing to do with Tolkien) and especially his speciality in handling fire.

--
Elenhin

"My god, it's full of stars!"</p>