Female Orcs?

[Balin999]

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i'm not sure if we had that question before but were there any orc wives or female orcs at all? i mean... how could Sauron create such a big army? he must have had women, but... honestly, what woman would like the idea to go to bed with an orc??




Behold the King of Moria!</p>

[Odysseus819]

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Re: Female Orcs?

Yeah was there an Anna Nicole Smith alive in the Third Age?

</p>

[Samwise of the shire]

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Re:hmmm strange question

But I guess that there were female orcs, I mean how DID Sauron have such heyyyy wait what if SARUMAN sent some half orcs to Sauron?

</p>

[Inziladun]

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Re: Female Orcs?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Yeah was there an Anna Nicole Smith alive in the Third Age?<hr></blockquote>

Only the wealthy orcs had a chance. <img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol">

Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p>

[Mithadan]

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Re: Female Orcs?

I foresee a rapidly degenerating thread.

I don't buy PJ's &quot;pods&quot; theory. There are two logical options: (1) female orcs are kept &quot;safe&quot; in only the deepest and darkest of orc strongholds; or (2) there's no outward way to tell the difference between fully clothed orc sexes (I always thought Gorbag and Shagrat were a little too buddy-buddy).

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Inziladun]

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Re: Female Orcs?

All orcs we get a close view of are described in masculine terms as far as I remember. But I guess they could be like the Dwarves,other races not being able to tell between their males and females.

Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p>

[The X Phial]

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Re: Female Orcs?

Maybe they all start out as one sex and then change to the other after a while. They are all born female, and then after they reproduce they become male...or something. This theory is based on nothing but my own imagination, but at leats it's original. <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

&quot;It's a girl.&quot;
&quot;You dumbass, it's always a girl.&quot;
&quot;Oh, yeah.&quot;

-*-The X Phial-*- You must believe in free will, you have no choice. Isaac Singer</p>

[mwcfrodo]

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Gender ambigious dwarves?

Sorry to veer away from whether there were female orcs, but I'm intrigued by Inziladun's comment that other races couldn't tell male dwarves from female dwarves. Is that stated somewhere?? If so, where? Does that mean female dwarves had beards?

</p>

[Inziladun]

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Re: Gender ambigious dwarves?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> It was said by Gimli that there are few dwarf-women...They are in voice and appearance,and in garb ...so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart.<hr></blockquote> Appendix A RoTK

I always took that to mean the women had beards. They would have to,to so closely resemble the men. I think there's a thread about that somewhere.

Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p>

[burrahobbit]

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Re: Gender ambigious dwarves?

It's in the appendix. I suppose it does mean that.

Back on the subject at hand. I've never thought about it before now, but in the minute I've given it I would side with mithadan, orc women in the deepest darkest strongholds. But I'll do him one better, perhaps they were &quot;dedicated breeders,&quot; constantly pregnant, giving birth, or becoming pregnant. It would help explain how their numbers increase so quickly.

That, or the free peoples can't tell the difference between orc sexes.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[Lady Eowyn]

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Re: Gender ambigious dwarves?

hmm, maybe they always had triples or so everytime??
That's why their number increased so fast <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">
Just an idea.....

And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom</p>

[Meneldil]

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Re: Female Orcs?

I don't think this question can be answered without considering the question of the origin of Orcs (there's a wonderful thread titled &quot;Orcish fear&quot; in the Silmarillion board). Orcs must, ultimately, either have been 'puppets' animated by Morgoth's power, in which case I'd question whether they'd have been able to reproduce - they might have hatched from pods (I seem to remember a contrary reference in a footnote in HoME X), or have been corruptions of Eru's creatures (Eruhini or lesser creatures, genetically-engineered apes, perhaps). If the latter is true, they'd probably have reproduced in the same manner as the Eruhini or the animals from whom they were derived.

The references to forced cross-breeding between humans and orcs in /Late Writings/ also supports the theory of sexual reproduction.

</p>

[Sharkû]

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Re: Female Orcs?

For pure speculation, I think the fact that orcs were bred not for the sake of them, or for the beauty of Arda, but for the purposes of Melkor, is vital.

For a warrior- and slave-race, whose sole existence should be blasphemous, the beauty of distinct sexes seems less appropriate than asexual reproduction, or hermaphroditic creatures.

</p>

[The X Phial]

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Re: Female Orcs?

That begs the question, though, of how the orcs were cross-bred or bred to specialization as we see in Mordor with the sniffer orc. Maybe Sauron had the power to change orc DNA (maybe) but I doubt Sauruman (who is credited with a new orc breed) could. Oh well, this is all speculation anyway, and I take your point about the balance of having two sexes not being a part of orc design.

-*-The X Phial-*- You must believe in free will, you have no choice. Isaac Singer</p>

[Meneldil]

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Re: Female Orcs?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> For a warrior- and slave-race, whose sole existence should be blasphemous, the beauty of distinct sexes seems less appropriate than asexual reproduction, or hermaphroditic creatures. <hr></blockquote>

This assumes that Morgoth created the orcs as a species. I'm not too sure if Morgoth could create an independent thinking species without the Secret Fire - Aule definitely couldn't. If the Orcs were only a perversion of a species created by Eru, the species would originally have been created for the beauty of Arda; hence distinct sexes would not be inappropriate.

</p>

[Gilthalion]

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Re: Female Orcs?

(Drive through (quickly) any government housing project or trailer park in the USA and you will see the horrifying answer with your own eyes!)

I remember Gollum gnawing the bones of a &quot;little imp&quot; he had caught. Nassty little squeaker!

I would imagine that Orcs are a species of degraded/mutated men or elves or both that do indeed sexually reproduce. Like most reprehensible cultures, the female of the race is kept in slavish bondage. Relatively few in number, harems of them for the Great Goblin or his toughest followers.

Lesser males were not allowed to breed. Such pleasures(?) were denied all but the fittest.

Female orclings were likely enough killed (and eaten) at birth, unless singled out for some particular breeding characteristic. They were likely raised to breed and were bred until dead. By the litter. Females from lines that produced many large litters were allowed to live to become breeders themselves. Male goblins were more useful for labor and battle. The females were only necessary for reproduction.

Or perhaps it was set up like Smurfs...

&quot;Papa Orc! Papa Orc!&quot;

(The foregoing is all just guesswork of mine, but it seems a wicked enough setup to me...)

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[Odysseus819]

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Re: Say It Ain't So

If orcs were originally perversions of elves, rather than truly new creations, does that mean -- COULD that mean -- that orcs go to the halls of Mandos when they die?

</p>

[Mithadan]

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Re: Say It Ain't So

OK, Odysseus. Its time for you to venture down to the Silmarillion/Canon Barrow. We have a couple of threads and a few dozen posts I think you would enjoy. Feel free to import anything you wish up to here.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Odysseus819]

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Re: Sorry, teach

Hmm I feel like a student who disrupted the class and now has to write a 500-word essay on the The Fall of the Roman Empire. Actually I HAVE visited the Siml/Canon barrow -- it's great, although in many respects beyond my level of familiarity with JRRT. But as i am given to wandering anyway, I will obey your rede, O Mithadan, and report/import back to this thread if I find the relevant stuff.

p.s. I also read part of your Tales, very enjoyable.

</p>

[Mithadan]

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Re: Sorry, teach

Thanks Greek Hero. More to come soon.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Glorfindel]

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Swimsuit

Female orcs Swimsuit calander... Yuck.
I think sauron might be the only one who orders that.

</p>

[Inziladun]

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Re: Swimsuit

There's an image. Yechhh.

Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p>

[Galadrielle Annatar]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Orc females

Orcs were originally elves who when newly made before Orome discovered them were taken by Melkor and perverted to become his slaves(Melkors worst deed).

I always assumed that after that they could just be spawned, not sure at all tho.

</p>

[Meneldil]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Orc females

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Þus cwæþ Galadrielle Annatar:
Orcs were originally elves who when newly made before Orome discovered them were taken by Melkor and perverted to become his slaves(Melkors worst deed).<hr></blockquote>

That is the Elves' guess re the origin of Orcs. In his later writings, JRRT began moving away from that notion.

</p>

[Samwise of the shire]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re:I agree with Gilth....

That might be the way it was sort of like wolves-that dont let the lower wolves breed only the leader and his harem are allowed to...-and people who give disregards to females-such as in India they poisin little girls, or they do something else thats just as abominable-.Huh? No way Mene.where'd you get that?Imean the Tolkien changing his mind thing.
Samwise of the Shire

</p>

[Erchamion]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re:I agree with Gilth....

Just imagine Orc-babies *shiver*.

Get you gone and fly, for here is a fire that shall consume you, and all evil things.</p>

[Lady Eowyn]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Re:I agree with Gilth....

EEEEEW. those must be the ugliest babies ever....
or maybe orcs are cute when they're small... Nah <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom</p>

[Taimar]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Orc females

When the Company of the Ring are being pursued in the Mines of Moria, Gandalf at one point states that he must rest, even if all the Orcs ever spawned are pursuing us (or words to that effect). Just thought I`d mention this, as it echoes Galadrielle`s comments a few posts back.

I seem to remember reading some of JRR`s thoughts, probably in HoME somewhere, that female Orcs were kept in harems and only the most powerful warriors were allowed access to them.

</p>

[Gilthalion]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Orc females

If that's true, then my guess was lucky, since at the time I didn't have the HOME and I haven't read it all even now!

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[Taimar]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Orc females

Great minds think alike, Gil.

</p>

[Halbarad]

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Re: Female Orcs and origin of orcs

Fangorn says that Morgoth made orcs in mockery of the elves, and trolls in mockery of the Ents. Was it Elrond that said that the power of darkness cannot create things of its own, only ruin what has already been made? In the Silmarillion it said that orcs came out of the pits of Morgoth, and insinuated that they were tortured elves.
But also, I was under the impression that the orcs spawned somehow- some foul process no doubt. The Uruk-Hai were described as some foul union of orcs and men- Saruman was accused of that by Gimli so does that mean that Saruman was the first cloner? I shudder to think of orcs and women together, or men with orcs for that matter.

Orc spawn- think of it as frog spawn, only larger

</p>

[Evenspire]

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Orc families

My guess would be that orcs are like slugs and snails, hermaphrodite. They are each both male and female, laying eggs that do not need taken care of. A young orc would be just like an older one, just smaller.

Half orcs though....

</p>

[Eldar14]

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Re: Orc families

If you want to see the other thread of similar topic, it is http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000641here</a>


</p>

[Fingolfin]

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Re: watchamacalit

HoME 10:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> (* [footnote to the text] One of the reasons for his self-weakening is that he has given to his 'creatures', Orcs, Balrogs, etc. power of recuperation and multiplication. <hr></blockquote>

Notice tolkien says Morgoth gave the power of multiplication to the orcs this seems to indicate they procreate and so would reenforce the idea od orcish babies

</p>

[CubanHobbit]

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Re: Female Orcs?

okay I have a really good explination to that, in FotR i think Treebeard said that trolls were a 'perversion' of ents and that orcs were a 'perversion' of elves that would mean that they reproduce by the same means, i guess trolls reproduced a-sexually, with pollen. Not to change the subject but were goblins a 'perversion' of humans? I always thought that goblins were a different spececs then orc but i my be wrong in LotR's case

<the only Cuban Hobbit></p>

[Gilthalion]

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Re: Female Orcs?

I think that goblins are bred from tribes of small orcs, particularly in the Misty Mountains.

Here is a question: If orcs were perverted from elves (clearly they could see well in the dark, had great endurance, had liquours and medicines that were effective, and gave off some sort of presence that an elvish blade could detect), did they have other elvish characteristics? Barring an unnatural death, were they immortal like Elves?

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[Bob Wehadababyitsaboy]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Female Orcs?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I don't buy PJ's &quot;pods&quot; theory. There are two logical options<hr></blockquote>

Isn't there <u>at least</u> three options?

3. There are no female orcs.

The pods sound like a play on the Matrix movie.
I guess when the early stuff said that orcs came from the slime, it rang a bell for PJ.

</p>

[Gilthalion]

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Re: Female Orcs?

Congratulations on your new son!



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[Bob Wehadababyitsaboy]

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Re: Female Orcs?

<img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

ob.
Orcs were made from stone when The Hobbit or There and Back Again was written.

</p>

[Gilthalion]

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Re: Female Orcs?

no, that was trolls...

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[Bob Wehadababyitsaboy]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/wight.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Female Orcs?

No right back at you.

<img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

They were made of stone.
QS is very clear on this point.

</p>

[Bob Wehadababyitsaboy]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Female Orcs?

Since you doubt me and my obligatory comment to stay on topic, which was very naughty of you to do without research:

Quenta
c. 1930
The Shaping of Middle-earth p. 82
&quot;The hordes of Orcs he made of stone, but their hearts were of hatred.&quot;

Quenta Silmarillion
c. 1937-38 revisions
The Lost Road and Other Writings p. 233
&quot;These Orcs Morgoth made in envy and mockery of the Elves, and they were made of stone, but their hearts of hatred.&quot;

Tell me again when The Hobbit or There and Back Again was written, and why they aren't made of stone as I said they were, and which you corrected.

Please, thank you and whatever else will get an answer.

</p>

[Gilthalion]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Female Orcs?

Well uh...

Gee!

In the last couple of years, I've never seen that comment or those citations! Everyone always referred to &quot;spawning&quot; or to various things Tolkien said (I think in his letters) regarding the social nature of Orcs.

First time I ever heard they were made of stone!

I certainly accept your citations. Hmmmmm. But if Tolkien DID later change his mind, then that might supercede his preceding notions.

It would fit with Trolls being made in mockery of Ents, and the statement in THE HOBBIT regarding trolls being made of stone and such. Why not use the same manufacturing process with orcs?

I must leave it to the more knowing to reconcile the matter!

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[Bob Wehadababyitsaboy]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Female Orcs?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I certainly accept your citations. Hmmmmm. But if Tolkien DID later change his mind, then that might supercede his preceding notions.<hr></blockquote>
Is that about the Orcs from slime c. 1917-1930, Orcs from stone c. 1930-1951, Orcs as a spawn of the earth, or as believed by the wise in Valinor; possibly corrupted Elves c. 1952-1955, Orcs as corruted Elves c. 1955-1957, the probability of an Elvish strain in the Orcs c. 1958-1960, or the even later Orcs as corrupted Men c. 1960-?

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[Valros Barazhor]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Female Orcs?

A few ideas folk,
It should be assumed that Orcs breed because:
A) They were able to breed with Dunlendings to create
Half-Orcs, Neccessitating some compatible form of
reproduction.
B) They would need some method of reproducing without
the aid of Magic or Divine Power as they flourished,
even though Morgoth was imprisoned.
C) It seems a pretty common theme in all of Tolkien's works
that all his Races of people and creatures bred in the
standard human fashion(though I can't really explain
Trolls or Dragons as there is no reference to their
breeding)
All in all, If I was a great corruptor of Divine creations I would mock all aspects, perhaps when creating Orcs Morgoth
made sure there were both male and female?
Cheers

</p>

[whiteone]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Female Orcs?

but it just doesn't seem right <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

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[HerenIstarion]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Female Orcs?

to Bob Wehadababyitsaboy, jallanite, Aiwendil, or any who may have concern

Since this topic has it's main concern with orcs, I will ask a question answer to which I once knew, but I've forgotten it. In first age orcs had special name for the Noldor (similar as they called Gondorians Tarks in third). I stumbled upon it somewhere in HoME series, but I can't remember where. Maybe if you remember, it will be very kind of you, for I (oh, shame on me <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)"> ) even asked this as a question in trivia, and than, as nobody answered for several weeks, totally forgot the answer myselfhttp://www.plauder-smilies.de/verlegen.gif

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[doug*platypus]

Dig, Dig, Snuffle, Snuffle, Snort, Snort, OOH! Look at this thread!

For a warrior- and slave-race, whose sole existence should be blasphemous, the beauty of distinct sexes seems less appropriate than asexual reproduction, or hermaphroditic creatures.

I'd have to say that you bring up a good point, Sharkey, and convince me 100% in the opposite direction. If they were hermaphroditic, then all would have been breeders, which would inconvenience the armies no end, I'm sure.

Hobbitus Emeritus seems to give a horribly accurate picture of the Life Cycle of the Female Orc, showing how they would be used if they existed. I think they do exist, in exactly the same way that Dwarf-women do, and that the role of the female is an important comment on what both these races were like. Warlike and insensitive, almost pure Yang/male energy, without the necessary balance. Eventually these races died out, and Men, who were a little more progressive in their attitudes, inherited the earth. The Ents and the Entwives is another (pretty weird) story entirely.

[doug*platypus]

Oh, one more thing.
I don't buy PJ's "pods" theory.
Very wise, Mithadan! There's many PJisms I don't buy, but so long as movie tickets isn't one of them I guess New Line won't mind too much. Peter and bespectacled Weta guy whose name I can't remember often use the phrase "genetically engineered". This is a hot topic in New Zealand, and the world at the moment. Saruman using 'genetic engineering' is a very modern concept which I'm sure Tolkien wouldn't have had any inkling of, and is basically a tool to add some applicability to the modern world. Can't really blame them for that. The Island of Dr Moreau by H.G. Wells is pretty cool, and may be a bit more of an appropriate background to Tolkien's world.

[Bêthberry]

Hmm. A couple of points:

... perhaps they were "dedicated breeders," constantly pregnant, giving birth, or becoming pregnant.

Now just how many children did Rosie Cotton Gamgee bear, as one of the Free Peoples? A baker's dozen, wasn't it?

I think they do exist, in exactly the same way that Dwarf-women do, and that the role of the female is an important comment on what both these races were like. Warlike and insensitive, almost pure Yang/male energy, without the necessary balance.

This comparison between dwarves and orcs greatly overstates any superficial similarity. Dwarves were neither warlike nor insensitive, and were, in fact, more immune to the effects of the rings than any other race. They were children of Aule, after all, and not Melkor, they appreciate beauty and creating things, and are said to have a role in rebuilding Arda after the final fall.

Bethberry

[Nibinlondwen]

To answer your question, no I dont think that there were and female orcs.
Tolkien wrote the books and he alsow created the orcs. I dont know why, but some parts he left out. but it sounds crazy to me to say something like "and the orc-man took the orc-woman's hand and kissed her lips"
You have seen the film have you not?
well, you saw how the uruk-hais were born if you did, that is how peter jackson thought it would be. and honestly. By my oppinion, there SHOULD be female orcs. Both Melkor ens Sauron took women and men of the elven breed and made the orcs. so did the femail-elves turn into men? Am i wrong?
I dunno, but maybe this doesnt make sense. But think about it and make a oppinion of yours. cuz tolkien is dead and cant explain anymore. so its up to all and themselves to belive as they want.

thanks for reading.

[Bekah]

According to the Silmarillion (which as we all know isn't very accurate), the orcs were mutilated elves. It goes on to say that the orcs still bred like the First-born (aka elves). This was the deed that Iluvatar hated the most.

[Finwe]

I agree with Bekah. I don't think that Morgoth would have "created" or mutilated a species that would have spawned. He wanted to hurt Iluvatar. That was why he probably left female attributes on some Orcs. The thought of a race that ugly and horrible reproducing like the Elves, who were so beautiful and noble, is enough to make anyone sick.

[Burzdol]

What of there is now difference between male and female. The could look just the same, fight the same, and even act the same. They would still be a different sex though, right?

[Finwe]

That's true. Perhaps they resemble the Dwarves to some degree. You can never tell the females apart from the males, and frankly, I don't think I'd want to.

[Bekah]

Just to lighten the mood - has anyone read Terry Pratchet books?

Particularly the one about Cheery/ Cheri Littlebottom? I forget what it's called. Anyway, the female dwarves are very hard to distinguish from male dwarves, until Cheery decides to change her name and wear skirts and lipstick and earrings.

Carry on with the orcs, though...