Far from the Orc I love

[Kalimac]

NO, this topic isn't as scary as the header! smilies/smile.gif. What I'm wondering about - and I do apologize if this has come up before - is where are all the Orc women? It would be easy to think that they don't even exist, except for that passage in the Silmarillion "For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the children of Iluvatar" so presumably there were female Orcs somewhere (there's also that reference to Gollum killing "a small goblin-imp" in "The Hobbit" but that's more easily explained away as being non-canon). So presumably there are Orc-women (and children) SOMEWHERE, but where in LOTR could they be? Unless they're like female dwarves and blend in so much with the men that nobody could tell the difference, but still, there don't seem have been any Orc home villages or anything, and obviously the women wouldn't be hanging around guarding Cirith Ungol or anything like that - at least, you'll be looking a while before you find any Orc referred as anything except "he". It's understandable that they wouldn't be referred to much - it's hard to picture Shagrat or Grishnakh pining while on guard duty, wistfully humming "Black is the color of my true love's hair" while remembering happier times, but still...where were they?

[LadyArwen]

Hm ... now this is a very interesting topic. To tell the truth, I'm far from a Tolkien expert, though I do love his books - I think your best bet is to ask one of the Ops, the Three Wise Men of this site smilies/biggrin.gif

[Neferchoirwen]

Oh okay. I thought Tolkien's works are being integrated into musicals. I saw Lady Nazgul with a Les Miz going on. Oh well...
But the all-male orc issue really seems to be unclear.
btw...I love 'Fiddler on the Roof'

[Amanaduial the archer]

Unless they're like female dwarves and blend in so much with the men that nobody could tell the difference
has ne1 here read terry pratchett books?(if not, Y NOT!?)it says that all dwarves grow beards and there is atually one dwarf called cherie who every1 thinks is a bit strange as she...wears a skirt and a bra!shock horror!it could be something like that.
i thought about this a bit while reading lotr, but the thought of 2 orcs...together....*shudder*AAAAArgh!noooo!must not go there!
......black is the color of my true loves hair......oh my dear shagrat, when will you be coming home from murdering and pillaging?*sigh*.....hmmmmm
lol
amy

[Nevtalathiel]

Yes, I have read Terry Pratchett and I have a theory that Gimli is really female, the only female member of the fellowship and it would explain his "close friendship" with Legolas smilies/eek.gif Maybe it's just my twistsed mind which gets this though! LOL

[Eruhen]

I might have to go with the 'twisted mind' theory that you thought up, Nevtalathiel. The books specifically say that Gimli is the SON of Gloin, not his daughter or anything else. Although of course you're entitled to your opinion, strange as it may sound to others! smilies/evil.gif

[Nevtalathiel]

But if you've read Terry Pratchett, you'll see that all dwarves are refered to as "he", even if they're female! Maybe its still my twisted mind though!

[Starbreeze]

Ok, when I first saw this title I thought of Fiddler on the Roof - where whichever of the daughters it is, is saying goodbye to her father before going off to Siberia.

Maybe orcs aren't born as such, maybe they're like amoebas and sorta grow from each other, or maybe they are born from "test tubes"?

[Amanaduial the archer]

it would explain his "close friendship" with Legolas hmmm...ok really could hav done without that new and rather disturbing revelation!*shudder*. this board is like an aol chat i had on aol about whether sam was gay or not....
lol
amy

[Gorothlammothiel]

StarBreeze, Orcs like Amoeba? They were once elves......tortured and mutilated by the dark powers.....does that sound familiar to you? smilies/smile.gif

[Birdland]

I can't think of anything worse than being a female Orc. (shudder) They treat their comrades-in-arms so badly, can you image how they treat their women-folk?

Really can't picture an Orc coming home to the little woman, shouting "Honey, I'm home!"

[Aralaithiel]

NO!!!! Not "Fiddler on the Roof"!!!!! smilies/eek.gif
ACK!!!!
Actually, it is a good musical.
On topic, I'm with the Orcs as "test tube" babies. I don't even wanna think about orc reporduction! smilies/tongue.gif
And no Gimli is NOT female!!!!!! smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Nuranar]

Kalimac, I'm glad you brought this up! I've been wondering how to state the question myself. smilies/tongue.gif

Here's another thing: Anyone have any thoughts on how the orcs living in Moria managed to live? I mean, what did they have to eat? There were so many of them!

[Kalimac]

Thanks, Nuranar smilies/smile.gif. It didn't seem like a a very serious topic but I was curious. And Starbreeze, actually I was listening to my CD of "Fiddler on the Roof" while I was posting, so the the title sort of came naturally (and to be honest it was meant to be a eye-catching). And that is the song where the girl is going off to Siberia to join her reform-minded fiance, and if you've ever seen Siberia ... well, it's an even sadder song after that.

The only theory I've been able to come up with - such as it is - is that the Orc females are all in places like the Misty Mountains and safe underground holes like those, which is why they don't come into LOTR at all - they're keeping the home fires burning, probably in more ways than one. Orcs don't like being out in the daylight anyway (except for the Fighting Uruk-Hai, but well, they were weird anyway) so there are probably hidden colonies in places like those where the off-duty Orcs presumably return. I can't see them marrying ("Till mutual backstabbing us depart") but there'd probably be a good bit of domestic violence. Though honestly it's easy to picture the Orc-women giving as good as they get.

[Nevtalathiel]

Sorry if I've disturbed you Amanaduial the archer, maybe I should come with a warning label-"comments may offend or disturb, not suitable for under 8s or those of a squeamish disposition"

On a *slightly* more serious note, there must have been orc-women if Saruman was cross-breeding them to make the uruk-hai, unless he was using genetic engineering, which somehow doesn't sound right!

[Amanaduial the archer]

u sayin im under 8?ah, now im really insulted!nah kiddin, but a good point about saruman, i thought about that while watching the film but not for to long because at that point in the film several things happen at once, and my mind track was not exactly on just what is under lurtzs loin cloth.....oh god.....anyway, dont u see that slightly smaller looking orc who when she sees lurtz emerging faints?thats probably his mother.

They treat their comrades-in-arms so badly, can you image how they treat their women-folk?
surely that woukd be the point?half their comrades in arms might well be their womenfolk!
whenever i hear that song now in fiddler on the roof, im gonna think of poor shagrat far from home....*tries to stiffle a laugh*....*fails miserably*....
lol
me

[Nevtalathiel]

not necessarily under 8, maybe just with a squeamish disposition smilies/biggrin.gif

having that uruk-hai kind of burst out of that bubble of mud in the film was just wierd and *really* made me wonder about orc reproduction!

[mordor136]

I thought I saw alot of them at the Miss Mordor Pagent. tolkien only says what they were in the begining not how they are bred.
meaning perhaps there are no orc women.

[Neferchoirwen]

...and maybe they just don't reproduce at all. Maybe the consequence they (as former elves) had to face was to never reproduce. I think it's an appropriate punishment, don't you think?

[ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: Neferchoirwen ]

[Amarinth]

The only theory I've been able to come up with - such as it is - is that the Orc females are all in places like the Misty Mountains and safe underground holes like those, which is why they don't come into LOTR at all - they're keeping the home fires burning, probably in more ways than one. Orcs don't like being out in the daylight anyway (except for the Fighting Uruk-Hai, but well, they were weird anyway) so there are probably hidden colonies in places like those where the off-duty Orcs presumably return. I can't see them marrying ("Till mutual backstabbing us depart") but there'd probably be a good bit of domestic violence. Though honestly it's easy to picture the Orc-women giving as good as they get.

lol! you're consistently eloquent AND funny, kalimac. i was mulling over your post and arrived at the same guesses, that is, places in the lotr where a considerable population of orcs have been mentioned. incidentally, it may be possible that there are only a small proportion of women-orc relative to the ubiquitous male, just enough to, ah, keep the evil bosses' business open. don't need too many women around anyway as the likes of laundry, dusting etc. are not level one priority in your normal orc household. funny, i had the same impression about there being few women elves --

uruk-hai are weird -- LOL -- you mean aside from them being ORCS? smilies/rolleyes.gif

---------------------------------------------
every man's life is a path to the truth -- hesse

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

My guess is that there were so many fewer female orcs than males, that the powerful orcs had herums (I doubt I spelled that right) and that is how they multiplied so quickly. One male orc times ten female orcs equals lots of baby orcs. Especially if they gave birth to more than one at a time. Saruman's pits in the movie, I believe simply sped up and enhanced the growth process so he could have an instant army.

[Kalimac]

Amarinth - thank you smilies/smile.gif [Kalimac blushes]. I meant that the Uruk-Hai was were extra weird, so to speak, because of the way Saruman "genetically engineered" them. (How DID he do that exactly? I can't picture him with a lab full of petri dishes in Orthanc. And in the movie they say he "by foul craft crossed Orcs with Goblin men" which is quite a trick when you think about it, but they never do show us exactly how).

Harems would make sense. A lot of animals have those battles between males in which the winner gets to keep the loser's harems; it seems realistic that the Orcs would be into that sort of thing.

[Orodhromeus]

Saruman didn't create the Uruk-Hai, at least not in the books' world. They existed in Mordor before the War of the Ring (we saw them in Book VI anyway). I can't tell you more than that though.

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

I can make a guess-maybe it's like the women of Haradrim and in the East. It says (I forget which book I as reading-pretty sure it was Unfinished Tales)But anyway,it says that the women from the East and the Haradrim women were very man-like and they could fight too. They used to live around Mirkwood or something and the men who lived there would try and burn their homes or something and the women would actually fight back. Cuz they were big and beastly-like. That's probably how the women orcs are if there are any-beastly and easily mistaken for the men. Who knows, maybe there were women orcs fighting in The Lord of the Rings. My only other guess is that orcs are bred how Saruman made the Uruk-Hai. I know it says that orcs were once elves, tortured and all that, but maybe when Morgoth made orcs, he changed something to make them multiply in different ways. Which is a pretty bizzare thing and most likely isn't the way! By the way, I hope there are no orc women because that is a very distubing thought!! Who would wanna do that with an orc, even if they are orcs themself!!! Ew...disturbing.Oh!!! Maybe if there are no orc women, the orcs multiply from the women of Haradrim or something like that. Which is yet another disturbing thought but maybe that was it.

[Rosa Underhill]

there must have been orc-women if Saruman was cross-breeding them to make the uruk-hai

I recall something in the books about "breeding orcs and men". The thought made me cringe. Anyway...

I'm thinking that the orc-lasses were fighters just like the orc-lads. And I think the harem idea is a little backwards. Apparently, there are very few she-orcs, so you can't have a female harem. I'm thinking that the orcs are really ruled by their ladies and, well, you can take it from there. Of course, this theory would have to suggest that orcs give birth (if they even give birth at all) to litters of more than one....kid? Pup?

[Ruthwen]

I think... I think most of the Orcs we see (Shagrat etc) are actually the females. It would explain their love of shiny things, like the mithril coat and the Ring, wouldn't it?

Nah, ignore me. I'm just being stupid. smilies/smile.gif

[Nevtalathiel]

but they never do show us exactly how

Kalimac, is it really something you want to know? Maybe orc reproduction is just one of the things we have to accept that happens without really knowing HOW, which is possibly a GOOD thing!

[goldwine]

Well... I have pictures in my head which don't seem to want to go away! Thanks guys! Perhaps some of the orcs were female? Do we only assume that they were male because of their names etc? This is the nicest solution and won't give me orc-breeding nightmares!

[Kalimac]

Nevtalathiel, I think it was a poor choice of words on my part smilies/evil.gif . What I meant was "explain how" - a couple of lines by Saruman would be sufficient - NO show-and-tell for that part please, Mr. Jackson! Rosa mentioned the part about "breeding Orcs and men" and it did sound sort of like Saruman was the evil and much more dramatic precursor to Gregor Mendel, that's all.

Anyway I'm still thinking the Orc-women were underneath some mountain somewhere, though it would make sense that they'd be fighting along with they guys, except that they're all called "he"...wait...that's it! Maybe Black Speech only has one pronoun! (Like Turkish, where "o" means he, she and it - depending on context). So when they speak Westron, they're not used to using different pronouns, so they just use "he" to mean he, she, and it. That would explain it. It wouldn't explain the lack of young Orcs in the fortresses and so forth, but then, the war hasn't been going on THAT long.

[Nevtalathiel]

Saruman was the evil and much more dramatic precursor to Gregor Mendel

Was he crossing wrinkly orsc with non-wrinkly orcs and then crossing their offspring and seeing how many came out wrinkly?

The lack of a female pronoun in the Black Speech sounds like a good idea, though!

[KingCarlton]

With the Orcs being featured mostly at battles in the story, which is not a proper place for females and children, I'd guess it was not important to mention them.
That they exist has to be taken as a given, everything cannot be made specific....in a story.

Know Peace

smilies/tongue.gif

[Nevtalathiel]

Ooh, King Carlton, you might want to be careful in case you get mobbed by a group of feminists, or worse feminist orcs!

[Orodhromeus]

I can make a guess-maybe it's like the women of Haradrim and in the East. It says (I forget which book I as reading-pretty sure it was Unfinished Tales)But anyway,it says that the women from the East and the Haradrim women were very man-like and they could fight too. They used to live around Mirkwood or something and the men who lived there would try and burn their homes or something and the women would actually fight back. Cuz they were big and beastly-like. That's probably how the women orcs are if there are any-beastly and easily mistaken for the men. Who knows, maybe there were women orcs fighting in The Lord of the Rings. My only other guess is that orcs are bred how Saruman made the Uruk-Hai. I know it says that orcs were once elves, tortured and all that, but maybe when Morgoth made orcs, he changed something to make them multiply in different ways. Which is a pretty bizzare thing and most likely isn't the way! By the way, I hope there are no orc women because that is a very distubing thought!! Who would wanna do that with an orc, even if they are orcs themself!!! Ew...disturbing.Oh!!! Maybe if there are no orc women, the orcs multiply from the women of Haradrim or something like that. Which is yet another disturbing thought but maybe that was it.

Haradrim (Southrons) & Easterlings were all human (though more dark-skinned than the Númenóreans, Dunlendings and other human of western M-E). They had nothing to do with orcs. They were just allies of Mordor.

[KingCarlton]

Mobbed by feminist Orcs...
smilies/eek.gif smilies/eek.gif smilies/eek.gif

smilies/evil.gif

[Nevtalathiel]

That could make for an interesting fanfic couldn't it, the battle by female orcs for the right to fight. Hmm...perhaps I'll leave that to someone else!

[Amanaduial the archer]

hmmmmmm, interestin......u know this muct be one of the most bizarre topics on the whoe of barrowdowns!

[dragongirlG]

uh...weird. But I do believe there were female orcs, and they weren't with Shagrat or any of the Orcs we saw before. Then again, I never thought of goblins as female. Strange topic...hahaha maybe Saruman did in-vitro fertilization? It'd make more sense than genetic engineering. *shudders* I have strange scenes going through my mind...yuck!

[Nevtalathiel]

Please, stop there! I never thought I was squeamish or easily disturbed before, but IVF for orcs is just too much, even for me! smilies/eek.gif smilies/eek.gif smilies/eek.gif

[Mithadan]

The "breeding pods" seen in Saruman's pits in the Movie are an embellishment by Peter Jackson and appear nowhere in the books. Its safe to assume that there were female orcs, though their culture is unknown.

[Starbreeze]

actually I was listening to my CD of "Fiddler on the Roof" while I was posting, so the the title sort of came naturally

Hehe funny, coz round about the time that you were posting I was also listening to the Fiddler on the Roof soundtrack (my friends though, not my own)! Funny coincidence!

[Raefindel]

Now, Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember , I think it was Gandalf saying ... "If every orc ever spawned..." I believe they ARE spawned. But that does not negate the need for females, just the process by which reproduction is achieved. Which brings us no closer to the answer to of the question, I'm afraid. Sorry. smilies/frown.gif

[ April 10, 2002: Message edited by: Raefindel ]

[Birdland]

Forty posts regarding the mating habits of the Medieval Northen Orc? I don't think even Marlin Perkins would have delved THAT deeply into the subject.

[Kalimac]

Sigh. I guess that'll teach me to ask questions like "where are the Orc women" - I guess the subject was kind of loaded after all.

Who is Marlin Perkins, BTW?

[Birdland]

Oooops! Birdie gives away her age again. Marlin Perkins was one of those naturalist guys who had a nature show on in the 60s and 70s.

Perhaps I should have said "The Crocodile Hunter". smilies/smile.gif

[goldwine]

I remember good ol' Marlin Perkins (whoops that's my age showing too!) I think we should stick to Marlin - the croc hunter would want to get right in there with the mating orcs and tell us how cute they are!

[Eärendil]

But crocodiles are cute! smilies/biggrin.gif

[Belin]

Crocodiles, um, maybe. Orcs, no. smilies/rolleyes.gif

But, at the risk of adding more absurdity to this thread, the business about spawning (and, incidentally, of all the odd/disturbing images this thread has brought up, I must say a female orc laying eggs like a fish is definitely the strangest) brings up yet another insoluble question: What about the little Orclings???? Do orcs get parental? ...I must say, this is scary on many levels: I'd hate to be raised by Orcs, myself, and one must be careful to stay away from the young ones; Orcs are much worse than bears, I'm sure! Or are they just immediately turned over to some commander so they can be properly raised as good little slaves of the Eye?
I must say, this kind of a childhood, in conjuction with things discussed on
this thread (http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000860) would certainly help to explain why Orcs are so mean and nasty....

--Belin Ibaimendi

[ April 13, 2002: Message edited by: Belin ]

[Amanaduial the archer]

this is such a completely reandom thread!if u think bak to the film, u c that lurtz appeared to be born full grown(how....?)and that they all seemed to be waiting 4 saruman who immediatly took lurtz away, so maybe the handed-over-to-commander thing is a good theory. how theyre born full grown is still a mystery tho....and not one that i think ill indulge in to deeply....

[Orodhromeus]

(hem...I think it's the 10th time I say this this week smilies/smile.gif In LotR-book, the Uruk-Hai weren't created by Saruman and Saruman did nothing but rule over them. Lurtz and all the Uruk-Hai creation scenes were mere additions by Peter Jackson.

[Nevtalathiel]

Broody orcs-scary smilies/eek.gif

[Midgardsormen]

LOL...of course we would shudder to think about Orcs 'doing it' but why should they?? If an Orc likes the way he looks, why would he not like it if a female Orc had similar features??
Personally I think that there were not few female Orcs (I cannot remember Tolkien saying anything about numbers??). I do think they stayed away from the fighting though. I also think that although they originally were 'corrupted Elves', they would have to be able to breed....it would be impossible to capture and enslave that many Elves!! I think over time it became normal for a female Orc to have several kids at a time...maybe 3-4 became the norm. I also think that maybe they grew up much faster...there might not be much motherly love so the babies would have to learn to fend for themselves early.
I do not think the Orcs necessarily had harems...I think it more a case of the most desirable women being enticed by the fiercest males...but they took what they could get. I cannot see them being faithful to one spouse can you?? smilies/biggrin.gif If the kids were weaned early, a female Orc could probably have a brood every couple of years...if you do a bit of maths, you can see that they could thus breed much faster than both Elves and humans, even if the method of procreation was similar.
Maybe I am not squeamish enough, but the thought of Orcs having sex does not worry me at all. What did appall me the first time I read it was how Orcs once came about....I would NOT have wanted to be a female, be it Elven or Human and fall into the hands of the Orcs. (but what they do with their own kind, c'est la vie!)

[dragongirlG]

Can you imagine a female Orc down in a little cave, minding the children, saying, "I am woman, hear me ROAR!!!"? Hahaha!

[Nibinlondwen]

I saw just the same topic the other day, and i aswered something like I THINK there SHOULD be female orcs. maybe they are like the dwarves or maybe theres no difference between fem and man orcs, they may be uncaring mothers that fight but they have a low standard in the troups.'
But when it comes to the thing, i really dont think there were any of them. maybe tolkien left that out for us readers to figure out on our own.
no one can tell now...

[littlemanpoet]

Okay. I can't resist any longer.

I agree with the Ghastly Neeker Breeker and Mithadan. That is, the petri dish thing is an embellishment of the movie; and there had to be female orcs.

Tolkien didn't comment on it because it didn't serve the purposes of his story, and also because to do so would be to talk about something quite horrible. Think about it:

common orcish traits: dominance by means of violence; beastly behavior; every perversion imaginable. My guess is that female orcs were probably slaves with only two functions: breeding and brooding. They were probably a lot smaller than male orcs, because that's the way the ruling orcs would want them; the chieftains and his cronies probably did all the breeding, and there was probably all manner of disease. To be female orc would be a cursed existence beyond all bearing, I'm thinking.

[Silmarien]

I must admit I wouldn't have read this thread unless I was wanting to play one of twin orcs in an RPG. Any way I did a search and found this in another thread I would imagine that Orcs are a species of degraded/mutated men or elves or both that do indeed sexually reproduce. Like most reprehensible cultures, the female of the race is kept in slavish bondage. Relatively few in number, harems of them for the Great Goblin or his toughest followers.

Lesser males were not allowed to breed. Such pleasures(?) were denied all but the fittest.

Female orclings were likely enough killed (and eaten) at birth, unless singled out for some particular breeding characteristic. They were likely raised to breed and were bred until dead. By the litter. Females from lines that produced many large litters were allowed to live to become breeders themselves. Male goblins were more useful for labor and battle. The females were only necessary for reproduction. I know this idea has been raised by others but I thought this made it very clear.

It seems to me that the general concensus is that there were female orcs (though this may just be I'm biased to the way I'm being persuaded).

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Actually the 'spawning' concept goes rather well with Movie Saruman's breeding pits. The female(s) lay eggs which are fertilized by selected males and the result grows to maturity inside those muddy pouches. No 'childhood' and no family life of any kind.

If I recall correctly from the HoME Tolkien recognized certain, shall we say theological difficulties with the concept of Orcs as corrupted Elves, or Men for that matter. In either case they would have souls and so could *not* be automatically and irredeemably evil - which Orcs definitely are. Orcs therefore *must* be souless, possibly animated by minor evil spirits or the power of Morgoth.

[Sapphire_Flame]

I am officially and thoroughly disturbed now... smilies/eek.gif fascinating topic though...

[Sapphire_Flame]

I felt the need to revive this thread...
Or are they just immediately turned over to some commander so they can be properly raised as good little slaves of the Eye?
This is an interesting thought. I suppose for the most part this would be what happens, but suppose an ickle baby orc wasn't handed over, or was kept aside for a different purpose? Would he still be evil and violent, or would the lack of martial upbringing affect how he behaved?

Maybe I am not squeamish enough, but the thought of Orcs having sex does not worry me at all.
Yeah. Hey, do you think that orcs would get creeped out talking about humans or elves having sex? Just a thought... smilies/rolleyes.gif

Abedithon le,

~*~Aranel~*~

[Noxomanus]

I think the idea of Orcs laying eggs is ridiculous......no mammal (except platypus and echidna) lays eggs and I'm quite sure Tolkien knew that. (though not neccesarily the exceptions to the rule.)He surely wouldn't have primates laying eggs,that's for sure.If you ask me,we shouldn't make a fuss and just accept the idea of Orcs "multiplying in the manner of the Children of Illuvatar",wich is the most direct and satisfactory answer you could wish for.

[Frodo2968thewhite]

Okay, going by the opinion that LOTR actually happened, the only logical way to create more orcs is to reproduce...so there must be orc women! And if you think about it, the orcs are ruled by "Gorthaur The CRUEL" (a.k.a. Sauron), so I think that he would just make the orc women fight and work too! Let's say there's a 3:1 ratio of orc men to women, then why waste oh.....a couple hundreds of thousands of orcs(if not more) just to make the women nice & comfy. SAURON IS EVIL smilies/evil.gif , so he would put the women to work!
Of course, that's just my theory... smilies/wink.gif