Gothmog and Sauron

[jimmyjhjr]

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Was Gothmog (the Lord of the Balrogs) more powerful, or did he rule over Sauron (himself being a Balrog by definition)?

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[Inziladun]

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Re: Gothmog and Sauron

Sauron is said to be the greatest of Morgoth's servants, acting as his right hand. The balrogs were angelic spirits of lesser degree.


Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p>

[jimmyjhjr]

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Oh yeah

I forgot about that, lol, I guess Gothmog would have to be second then. But since Sauron is a Maia, he would have to be a Balrog, right? I guess Gothmog is the Lord of the Balrogs with an exception of Sauron. But you said Balrogs are of lesser degree, I don't believe so, they're both Maiar, Sauron's just more powerful (I'm just saying he is a Balrog, so a Balrog can't be of a lesser degree).

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[The Barrow-Wight]

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Re: Oh yeah

All maiar were not Balrogs, but all Balrogs were maiaric in nature (see a really long discussion of this in the Silmarillion Project thread). So Sauron (and many other Maiar) were not balrogs.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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[jimmyjhjr]

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I didn't say that

I know that all Maiar aren't Balrogs, for instance, Olorin, anyway, any Maiar that follows Melkor I believe is, isn't that the definition? I don't know, I just finished the books yesterday, so I'm a newbie, lol.

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[Elenhin]

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Re: I didn't say that

Only Maiarin spirits of fire who followed Melkor were Balrogs.

For example:
Sauron followed Melkor, but he wasn't a spirit of fire. Thus he wasn't a Balrog.
Arien was a spirit of fire, but she didn't follow Melkor. Thus she wasn't a Balrog.
Gothmog was a spirit of fire and he followed Melkor. Thus he was a Balrog.

I hope this clears it up <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

--
Elenhin

"My god, it's full of stars!"</p>

[jimmyjhjr]

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Actually....

Then was Gothmog actually a Balrog? In the Book of Lost Tales 2, it says he's the Son of Melko.

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[Adunakhor]

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Re: Actually....

jimmyjhjr wrote:

&quot;I know that all Maiar aren't Balrogs, for instance, Olorin, anyway, any Maiar that follows Melkor I believe is&quot;.

If you have read Silmarillion you have probably read about these Maia spirits, all faithful to and followers of Morgoth but still not Balrogs:

Thuringwethil, Saurons messenger from Tol-in-Gaurhoth, appear as a huge bat.
Draugluin, the huge werewolf in the same tower, slain by Huan.
Carcharoth, the giant wolf, protector of the gates of Thangorodrim.

Yes, it is written that Gothmog was the son of Melko in BoLT2, but it also says that Tolkien discarded this mythology in newer versions.


&quot;Not before Manwë steps down from Taniquetil and Morgoth rises again, the last battle will be fought in the end of times, Dagor Dagorath..&quot;


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[Inderjit Sanghera]

In terms of necromancy/spells: Sauron
Fighting: I think Sauron. I really don't rate Gothmog that highly, as every time he has slain someone powerful, he has hade help from other Balrogs, and the onne time that he gets into a duel, with Ecthelion, he is killed, albeit by Ecthelions helmet. Though he does sweep Tuor out the way like he was nothing.

[-Imrahil-]

Gothmog was powerful nonetheless, not a normal Balrog. He probably had more brute force than Sauron, although not when Sauron held the one ring. I think of Sauron being more wise, he has his troops do the work, he organizes the battles. Gothmog less so, less spell-oriented.

[obloquy]

He probably had more brute force than Sauron,

What are you talking about? Bigger muscles? No, Sauron was greater: he was more powerful, mightier. He also ranked higher. There is no indication anywhere that his might was only in his noodle, or that Gothmog could beat him in arm-wrestling.

Myths Transformed:
Melkor had corrupted many spirits — some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs.

And no, I didn't just cut off the part where he says "except Gothmog, cuz he rox."

[Orome]

yeah i am sort of confused about why sauron would be more powerful with the one ring than before he made that ring. Didn't he just put a great part of his power that he already had into the ring, plus the power to control the other rings?

[Eru]

Didn't he just put a great part of his power that he already had into the ring, plus the power to control the other rings

yeah. otherwise would he have spent so much time looking for it in the War of the Rings? he needed the ring to regain his power.

-Lenwa

[Mhoram]

I don't have quotes on hand to back this up, but I think this is how it works with the ring. Sauron takes a certain amount of his original power and pours it into the ring, what this does is for one gives him that control over the other rings, but I believe it also magnifies his power, so that he has more power than he did before he had the ring. When he loses the ring he not only loses control over the other rings, he also loses that power gain given by the ring. Here's how I see it:

Sauron had 10 units of power.
Sauron puts 5 units of power into the ring.
Sauron with ring now has 5 units of his own power, plus the 5 in the ring, plus a bonus of 2.
Sauron loses the ring and he goes back down to 5 units.
If Sauron gets the ring back he's back up to 12 units.

[ November 28, 2002: Message edited by: Mhoram ]

[the witch king]

i think tho sauron was counted as beeing 2nd only 2 morgoth wen u look at his track recored in sim he dosent fare 2 well in most fights where he is directly involved where as gothmog tends to do better fightin at the frount line do u think there could ov bin some kind ov rivelry btween them 4 morgoths faver?