The Ultimate Discourse About Gildor

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Not so long ago, I chanced upon what is probably a perennial issue in the midst of a very long topic discussion. The issue was a relevant but tangential offshoot from the main topic (as if that never happens).

Well, I took too long composing my reply (imagine!), and the Barrow-Downs ejected me, and my brilliance was lost. But don’t be too upset; I have recalled much of it below. So, now I’m back—having a functional DSL modem again—and I’d like to elicit comments about my comments (which is what we do here), regarding the following topic from the Lord of the Rings, Book I:

Did Gildor Inglorion fail poor Frodo, Sam & Pippen by sending them on their way without providing escort or any more tangible aid, and is this therefore a flaw in the story, in that here a High Elf of Gildor’s caliber commits such a selfish error?

Admittedly, I was once in my distant youth somewhat put off by Gildor’s inaction, after all the ancient and dreaded Nazgûl were pursuing the Hobbits, who were desperately making their way to Rivendell, where Elrond certainly awaited them. Much of the thread, in which I was attempting to reply, was largely critical about this largely—as it might seem—inconsequential interlude in the story.

But I think that such conclusions fail to recognize the meaning of the encounter between the Hobbits and the High Elves, while still in the Hobbit’s Shire, and it trivializes the nature of the help that these Elves do bestow.

GILDOR’S SITUATION

First off, I assume that Gildor, though not direct kin to Finrod Felagund, is of a noble lineage within the House of Finarfin, and of such age that he likely fought beside Túrin Turambar. So, it is fair to say that he was not without means with respect to what amounts to power in Middle-Earth

Still, it is rationalized that Gildor had limited knowledge of what was really going on, and could hardly guess at the Ring. So, he couldn’t really appreciate the problem, but I think my observations above already shown that that doesn’t hold water, and even if he knew it was the One Ring, he probably would have done no differently, especially if one considers the danger of the Ring itself. What happened to Boromir could happen to anyone in Middle-Earth.

Also, as Gildor relates, the Elves have their own troubles, and his people are only lingering in the outskirts of Lindon ere they take passage from Círdan’s Grey Elves, but this can also appear as simply selfish disregard for others, and a kind of shallow resignation toward the problem of Sauron, for which the Noldor are especially culpable. It also grates against the examples of Glorfindel, Elrond, Galadriel and Legolas, who do what they can.

But this misses the mark. The Eldar are not leaving the world simply because they want to, but rather they and their power – in an active sense – are truly fading. The mortal lands are increasingly alien, and from long sorrow they’ve learnt how interaction with the affairs of mortals (be they Men or Hobbits) can lead to horrible disaster. Think Túrin. The Elves must sadly leave the problem of Sauron primarily to the mortal races, with whom even in the case of most descendents to the Edain, they can no longer relate. The time of the Eldar’s glory and struggle is profoundly passé.

This also explains Gildor’s deep reluctance to even give advice, because of the fear, even though he knows much, and could say much that was undeniably wise, that whatever he did say could prove disastrous, in that it might paralyze the Hobbits with fear, be misunderstood, or simply misleading given even Frodo’s knowledge.

This leads to my central tenet, which is that it is not so much a question of what Gildor “can” or “could” do, but rather what he “should” or “is allowed to” do. Just like Bombadil later on, Gildor is immediately struck by the fact that this is not a chance encounter. Like Bombadil, he realizes that it is someone’s plan, just not his. But in stark contrast, Gildor does not have Tom’s mastery of his immediate world. He thus is deeply at ease in trying to decide how best to respond to this mysterious turn of events.

Therefore, Gildor, does exactly what he’s supposed to do. He accurately perceives the part he is to play, which is that discretion is be better part of valor at that point.

REALISTICALLY, WHAT COULD HE HAVE DONE

First of all Gildor’s group includes elf-women, and even the male elves are probably not carrying serious arms. This is no band of elven warriors. So, they are really in no position to effectively provide security to the Hobbits against the Black Riders, but have merely startled one Ringwraith with song of Valamar.

Second, they are still in the Shire, which as Gandalf says has a power of its own, which is clearly working to the advantage the Hobbits, and may explain the Elves presence, as does the connection with Bilbo (an Elf-friend by grant from Thranduil) and the spot of meeting.

Third, even if Gildor and some of the Elves could take measures to protect the welfare of their women-folk and so forth, and joined up with the hobbits, such a move could be nearly impossible to conceal in the Shire and beyond, which would have only caused other problems, and have been easily tracked by the Ringwraiths. And even if Gildor & company could keep the Nine at bay, what’s to have prevented the Nine from then summoning more help, ere the good guys could all reach Imladris.

Gildor, correctly judges that stealth, low profile and apparent vulnerability are all to the Hobbits’ advantage, inside the Shire and beyond. And indeed, the Nine are probably much more experienced at countering the power of their old foes, the Noldor of Eriador, if prepared for it, than the long overlooked Hobbits, who by the end of the story prove themselves quite resourceful, and all the more so, because it is unexpected.

Finally, Gildor and his people are comparable to Tom and Goldberry in another way. No one seems to think that Tom Bombadil could have hooked up with the Hobbits and led them to Rivendell. No, he really can’t deal effectively with matters beyond a certain realm, where he is omnipotent and thus free, and cannot really stray too far from it, except the occasional discourse with Farmer Maggot or a mug at the Prancing Pony.

Similarly, Gildor and his people are in their own world, merry shadows with only memories of greatness, which is probably true of most of the Eldar remaining in Eriador, except for Elrond’s and Círdan’s immediate retainers, who still maintain the obligations of their allies and ancestors long dead. The elves light singing in jest about Bilbo and the Dwarves in The Hobbit may not be so uncharacteristic.

WHAT GILDOR DOES DO

First of all, he conveys on Frodo the status of Elf-friend, which is only confirmed by Elrond when he quite seriously places Frodo at the level of Beren, Túrin, Húrin and Hador. So, even as Frodo does some foolish things through the course of Book I, he also exhibits great strength, presence and wisdom, too, which comes to fruition thereafter.

From the time of meeting Gildor, Frodo’s acquires—with all of the understatement of being a Hobbit—something of the power and nobility of the Elder Days.

The greatest gift of Gildor’s though is the advice he gives Frodo. He rightly perceives Frodo’s intentions are not to endanger his friends. Gildor plants that seed that allows Frodo to accept the company of a few companions whom he can trust. I don’t think that that could have been justified otherwise, and the results would have been disastrous. Not coincidently, seeds are planted in Sam and Pippin.

I also suspect that the elves do play a role in throwing the riders off track, and are not idle in terms of confusing their movements through or around the Shire, perhaps with the assistance regrouped rangers, who initially were no match for a group of the Nine themselves. Remember, it is some time before the Nazgûl even approach Crickhollow.

Finally, there is no doubt that Gildor sets in motion news that precedes the Hobbits and alerts others, facilitating additional “chance” encounters: Maggot, Merry, Tom, Glorfindel, and Gandalf’s eventually diversionary run, but it also contributes to their most important meeting of all, with Elessar, who’s interaction with the Hobbits is a critical development, because he is directly affected by their plight.

Indeed, Gildor is simply the first of many friends unlooked for, to paraphrase Elrond. The most notable being the meeting with Faramir, which as with the nature of the Northern Ranger’s lifestyle harks back to the Elf-friends of old.

WHAT GOES AROUND, COMES AROUND

But this first one in Book I is not the only encounter with Gildor, chance or not. Indeed, destiny plays itself out when he and Bilbo are there for the last riding of the ringbearers.

[Birdland]

In summation: "Love to help you Frodo, but I have a boat to catch."

You did bring up an interesting point M-o'-W; the granting of the name "Elf Friend". I had considered it to be "merely" a password of sorts, something that might get Frodo into some really great "A List" Elven parties.

But your theory that it may be much more; not only a blessing conveying special status in the Elven world, but something that would bestow an actual "Elvish air" on the receiver, is worth thinking about. I had also never considered just who else bears the title "Elf Friend". Not many, apparently.

The power of the word, indeed!

[lindil]

I like the topic so much I have copied my reply over from the previous thread of the same topic.
I happily note that a few of my earlier points regarding Gildor seem to have been taken up into your own reflections on him.
-=-=-=-
from the Gildor Inglorion thread:

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000594

-=-=-=-=-

from that thread:


Well I, suprisingly got to the end of this thread w/ no one expressing what to me seemed the obvious.I thought for sure I would be pre-empted. but then again maybe I am just plain wrong!
my 2 cents;

Gildor searched his heart as to what he should do for Frodo and did it.

Just because you can help someone is it always right? Gildor clearly sensed something big was afoot and he hesitated to set anything in motion that was not meant to be.

Gildor knew that the Dunedain kept watch {aragorn was almost certainly one of those warned by Gildor's highly effective communications network.
All told we know it reached Aragorn, Bombadil and Rivendell, not bad for a slacking, racist wimp.


No I think Gildor Inglorion was practicing what the taoists call Wu-Wei. Acting w/out self-interest. I believe although puzzled and alarmed by the situation he weighed his possible responses in his heart and saw that it was not his or his companies part to escort them further.


But let us look at what the brief meeting did accomplish.

*The ring saved from immediate peril.
*Hobbits greatly heartend and [ Frodo and Sam at least] greatly enlightened.
*Frodo was pronounced an 'Elf-Friend' before he even left the Shire [ I believe the Elf-Friend title also had a certain blessing that went w/ it. like Faramir's staff.

*He also asked that Elbereth's Starts shine upon his road [which they undoubtedly did].

*set them up w/ food better than anything we will probably ever eat - vegetarian too if I recall.

*gave Frodo counsel to take friends [ the counsel of which helped sway him when the conspiracy was unmasked].

*Implemented the emergency contact system along the old Arthedain/Cardolan border.

not bad in my book. Actually the Gildor and co. scene has always been along w/ lothlorien my favorite in the book.I always come away so inspired I can not imagine Gildor being anything other than perfectly in-tune.


So, again Gildor did exactly what he needed to do. Just like Elrond [ a more common lightening rod for the ' he/Rivendell did not help enough' question] did not go to Mordor himself.Gildor and Elrond where wise enough to be where they were most needed and mature enough too do there part and no more, no less.

btw 'house of Inglorion' almost certainly means not a son of [ in which case he proably would have been King after Gil-Galad] but 'of the household of'.

And possibly a generation or 2 removed at that. Still as Finrod was one of the noblest [ The noblest in my book] of the Noldorin princes, even being his butler would have been a good job.

[ September 19, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]


Another note:
I just read the Grey Havens chapter yesterday and I noticed that Gildor departs with the Ringbearers.

[ October 20, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Let's not forget that Gildor Inglorien was one of the strongest in the house of Elrond, after all he had seen the light of Valinor and he glowed in the darkness of the night. No doubt he was obligated to protect his own band before some endangered hobbit travelers. He gave enough aid to get them at least to Bree. Even if things went horribly awry. Not to get off topic, but could Gildor be very close kin to Glorfindel? It makes sense.

[Amarie]

Man-of-the-Wold,
Gildor, correctly judges that stealth, low profile and apparent vulnerability are all to the Hobbits’ advantage, inside the Shire and beyond.
I think you've got it right here.
I see that someone has pointed out the fact that Gildor stayed in Middle-earth until Frodo and them departed. Maybe Gildor would have left Middle-earth sooner had he not met the hobbits.
It could be that Gildor guessed that Frodo had the One Ring. If this were the case, I see no reason that he alone would not have reached the same conclusion that the wise did back in Rivdenell..stealth would be the best hope.
Even if Gildor did not suspect the ring, the same reasoning could be applied. He knew they had something that Sauron wanted and that nazgul were sent after Frodo. So he still could have reached the conclusion that stealth was best. You say that the nazgul could have called for back up and I agree with this. Gildor would have known that too. I hadn't gave much thought to this before,I just assumed that he thought it was not his place to accompany Frodo and I left it at that. I even responded so in the other thread. Now I see there was more to it, and I am glad because now I think even more highly of Gildor who was already my favorite elf in The Lord of the Rings.
Thanks for this topic... smilies/biggrin.gif

[HerenIstarion]

And if elendili come into view, would you be so kind to consider Concerning Elf-Friends Thread (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001487)also?

Your humble servant posted there his opinions and was answered by profound and thought-out replies.

[Gandalf_theGrey]

Hail and Well Met, Man of the Wold!

* bows a greeting * smilies/smile.gif

Kudos on an excellent post. There's much treasure in your words. Time now permits only a brief response to one of your points, though in truth you deserve far better recognition and acknowledgement.

You say:

Similarly, Gildor and his people are in their own world, merry shadows with only memories of greatness, which is probably true of most of the Eldar remaining in Eriador, except for Elrond’s and Círdan’s immediate retainers, who still maintain the obligations of their allies and ancestors long dead. The elves light singing in jest about Bilbo and the Dwarves in The Hobbit may not be so uncharacteristic.


In my eyes, Elves making merry and singing lightly in jest does not diminish their respectability, but rather vouches for the kind of personal integrity and humility that allows one to laugh at self and with others. I would say the same for Tom Bombadil. I'd even venture that it takes courage to be oneself in such a way, to show sincere lighthearted whimsy. In a world where people judge according to appearances and often seek to project an aura of dignity the better to make a powerful first impression, and look for an expected air of answering sizing-up dignity in those they meet ... how very refreshing to simply enjoy life!

Contrast this with Mordor, where a wholesome sense of humor is unheard of. Jesting in the East often becomes the jousting of weapons ... figuratively, and even literally. I would offer the difference between Elves and Orcs as being, that Orcs by their nature are given to a mockery that destroys rather than to an Elvish gentler good-natured bantering that bonds.

Gandalf the Grey

[Amarie]

Keeper of Dol Goldur,
I'm sure Gildor was a great elf even among those in Rivendell but he was not the only "high elf" or calaquendi, among them. It was Frodo who said that Gildor's company were high elves and I believe he based this on the fact that they named Elbereth in song and nothing more. I have questioned Frodo's reasoning. I think the fact that these elves walked with a shimmer about their feet might be evidence that Frodo was correct even if his reasoning is not.
Perhaps someone who knows the works better can clear this up?
As far as Gildor being close kin with Glorfindel, I do not think it can be ruled out. smilies/smile.gif Glorfindel is a Noldor. Gildor is of the House of Finrod and so likely a Noldor too. Glorfindel was a golden haired Noldor, but we do not know the color of Gildor's hair. Everything I know about these two shows that there is no way of knowing if they are close kin. The fact is that they are both mistery elves. So who can be sure?
Hopefully others will have something new to add to this though.

[Saurreg]

Gildor said that he was an exile from the House of Finrod. I was wondering was he a vassal of Finrod and his brothers or was he born to parents who were servants of Fealgund? If he was a direct servant of Finrod, then where did he go after the destruction of Nargothrond? Did he he take refugee in Doriath? Or did he go to the havens (which is improbable since he was going there when the hobbits met him)?

Can anyone tell me?

[burrahobbit]

First off, I assume that Gildor, though not direct kin to Finrod Felagund, is of a noble lineage within the House of Finarfin, and of such age that he likely fought beside Túrin Turambar.

Why exactly do you assume that?

Let's not forget that Gildor Inglorien was one of the strongest in the house of Elrond, after all he had seen the light of Valinor and he glowed in the darkness of the night.

Maybe Keeper of Dol Goldur [sic] could provide us with the unpublished Tolkien material from which he gleaned so much heretofore unknown information about Gildor. It would certainly be valuable in the current discussion. Did Tolkien mail this bit of information to you personally, Keeper?

[ October 28, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

[HerenIstarion]

JRRT


I am Gildor,' said the Elf who had hailed him. 'Gildor Inglorion
of the house of Finrod. We are exiles, one of the few companies
that still remain east of the Sea, for our kindred went back to the
West long ago. We are Wise-elves, and the elves of Rivendell are
our kinsfolk.'(18)


CT


At this time Finrod was the name of the third son of Finwe (first Lord of
the Noldor). This was later changed to Finarfin, when Inglor Felagund
his son took over the name Finrod but my father did not
change 'of the house of Finrod' here to 'of the house of
Finarfin' in the second edition of The Lord of the Rings.

both quotations form HoME VI, drafts of LoTR

even less is given in LoTR as it was published:

I am Gildor,’ answered their leader, the Elf who had first hailed him. ‘Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod. We are Exiles, and most of our kindred have long ago departed and we too are now only tarrying here a while, ere we return over the Great Sea. But some of our kinsfolk dwell still in peace in Rivendell

Scarcely more than that, indeed, so speculations about Gildor fighting/not fighting beside Turambar etc are somehow not backed up, seemingly.

burra, say cheese to people sometimes, would you smilies/wink.gif ?

[burrahobbit]

Cheese is pretty nice, certainly much less boring than Gildor.

[HerenIstarion]

Let's start the "cheese" thread than, though AFAIK Tolkien never mentioned any differentkinds of cheese, just plain common simple 'cheese'. smilies/rolleyes.gif

[burrahobbit]

Perhaps you are right, HerenIstarion. I will have to look into this further.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

smilies/smile.gif
Ah, to clarify is fun.

As for my assumption of Gildor and Turin, I only assume that Gildor is of such age that it is possibly that he fought at Tumhalad. As a noble in the House of Finarfin, it would be logical that he lived at Nargothrond rather than anywhere else at that point.

Also, as for the tra-la-la-lalling elves encountered by Bilbo and Dwarves, I only comment in contrast to those that would say that such bahavior is not consistent with later implications about the High Elves of Rivendell. I have always rejected this supposed contradiction, thinking only that at the time of Bilbo's first arrival there, there was none of the very dire business afoot that defines the War of Rings, and that merry, seeming frivolous activity is not foreign to any elf (high or low) at any time, as that they are never really grim like Men are often described, but only serious and terrible when they need to be for reasons of war.

Rather, it is perhaps one of the faults of Feanor, that he takes life and "possessions," so seriously, in an non-elf-like way.

But, I am only trying to offer ways to understand the context of Gildor's situation, in that at that time, he like most elves of Eriador (exceptions being the Council members), are concerned rather exclusively with their own daily affairs and amusement, and that this is not so much a matter of choice, but of their continual alienation from the ways and lands of Mortals.

[Frodo Baggins]

Umm question?


Where does it say that Gildor was part of the house of Elrond? If iremeber he was never there. Theere was, however, Galdor, sent from the Havens by Cirdan.

Are Gildor and Galdor related?

[Gothmog]

Resurrecting a very old thread here... I don't know if this is the right place, but it is the ultimate discourse about Gildor, so why not?

I'm not going to go in on why Gildor left Frodo alone because that discussion seems neverending. What I'm curious of is Gildor's origin.

The facts posted here and on other threads is to start with:

Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod. Though the house of Finrod doesn't necessarily mean he is of the house of Finrod Felagund: Finrod was Finarfin's name in an early version. According to CT (quote in Heren's post below) House of Finrod wasn't changed at he same time. That also means Gildor might not be related or servant (depending on the definition of the word house) of Finrod Felagund at all.

Inglorion=Son of Inglor. Inglor Felagund=Finrod Felagund. But we know that Finrod (=the "modern" Finrod from now on) left his beloved Amarië in the Undying Lands. If Gildor indeed was Finrod's son he would have been the rightful Highking of Noldor after Gil-Galad and taken over Nargothrond after his father, instead of Orodreth. Besides, no son of Finrod is ever mentioned. Could Amarie have given birth to a child after Finrod went to ME? Maybe, but how would Gildor get across the sea? I don't know of any elves arriving from the west, only sailing to the west (resurrected Glorfindel could be an exception).

Gildor says that he has relatives, or rather "kinfolk" in Rivendell. Does that mean anything? Or is it kinfolk as in elves? He doesn't seem to live in Rivendell no matter his possible family ties.

Something that might be unnimportant but anyway: Gildor was on the ship that left Grey Havens together with Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf, Bilbo, Frodo and many more. This shows he is an elf of dignity, doesn't it?

By naming himself as of the House of Finrod, he implies that he has tight bonds to either Finrod or Finarfin, which I presume means he's been around for a while. Did he live in Nargothrond during Finrod's era? Did he meet Túrin? The only Gildor mentioned in Silmarillion is one of the twelwe companions of Barahir...In short: who was he back then?

And who is he now? I hope someone can help me with some more information here. And I know it's been discussed elsewhere, but new, fresh thinking is never wrong!

[Thinlómien]

Inglorion=Son of Inglor. Inglor Felagund=Finrod Felagund. But we know that Finrod (=the "modern" Finrod from now on) left his beloved Amarië in the Undying Lands. If Gildor indeed was Finrod's son he would have been the rightful Highking of Noldor after Gil-Galad and taken over Nargothrond after his father, instead of Orodreth. Besides, no son of Finrod is ever mentioned. Could Amarie have given birth to a child after Finrod went to ME? Maybe, but how would Gildor get across the sea? I don't know of any elves arriving from the west, only sailing to the west (resurrected Glorfindel could be an exception).


Hmm... In the War of Wrath a host of Vanyar came to Middle-Earth with valar to fight Morgoth. If Gildor was born in Valinor (and was a son of Finrod and Amarië), maybe he came to Middle-Earth then and stayed there. Why would he come, I've no idea. But since Tolkien was a conservative, and Amarië is described just the 'beloved' of Finrod Felagund, so maybe he (Tolkien) wouldn't write them to have children because they weren't married.

And I'm not so sure about the Inglorion... Does it really mean someone's son? I know the -ion ending is an possessive (fg. Heren Istarion is the Brotherhood of wizards), and it would be logical that it means someone's son. Where did you anyway get that information, Gothmog?

[Gothmog]

You have a point about the Vanyar. But I doubt he was a son of Finrod anyway. As you said; why would he come to ME? And why haven't we heard of him if he's from such a noble family?

I might have been too quick to give out the info of Inglorion= son of Inglor. I read some discussions in the Gildor-subject before posting the previous post and there were the connection made. I thought it was on this thread, so I'm sorry. Careless of me. I'll try to find the thread were this was mentioned and quote it for you. I can't remember reading about it in any books, but the poster of that fact seemed certain. I'll be back...

[Gothmog]

Ok, I regret posting Inglorion=Son of Inglor as a fact. It should be considered one possible translation or theory. Here's some quotes and threads that shed some light on Gildor's name:

The name seems to suggest that Gildor is Finrod's son. There is however no mention of this in any genealogy. It does say that he is of the house of Finrod.

Strange, since the name makes him his direct son (since the "ion" is in this case meant in the biological sense).

Son of Inglor, early name for Felagund.
From Gildor Inglorion (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2021) post #12 ~Pengolodh

Also, these threads tackle the problem of Inglorion:
Gildor son of Finrod (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2380)

Gildor's origin (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=862)

And a quote from the Encyklopedia of Arda concerning Inglorion:The surname given to himself by the Elf Gildor when he met Frodo and his companions in Woody End in the Shire. Inglorion is a patronymic, and means 'son of Inglor'.

This interpretation means that Gildor was potentially a very important Elf indeed, because at the time these words were written, Inglor was the name of the Elf-lord called 'Finrod' in The Silmarillion, and the name Finrod belonged to his father (known in The Silmarillion as 'Finarfin'). This suggests that Gildor was of very noble descent, and was in fact the son of the founder of Nargothrond.

It's hard to tell whether or not this was Tolkien's intention when he chose the names. In The Silmarillion, it's stated categorically that Finrod (equivalent to Inglor in this context) had no wife or children, which seems to contradict Gildor's claim. This may simply be a case of Tolkien using an existing name without intending any particular significance (as he did, for example, with 'Glorfindel'), but it's possible to speculate that the name Inglorion carries much more meaning that might appear on the surface.

Thank you for correcting me Thinlomien! Does anyone know the correct translation of "ion"? Another question added to my infinite pile of why? who? when? what? where? ehhh? :rolleyes: And please give your views of Gildor's origin.

[Thinlómien]

I know the -ion ending is an possessive (fg. Heren Istarion is the Brotherhood of wizards) This is all I know. I think those who know more elvish than I will tell more about that (if they happen to get to view this thread).

[Alcarillo]

Does anyone know the correct translation of "ion"?
In Quenya, -ion is one of two plural genitive suffixes (the other is -ron). For example, macili ohtarion means warriors' swords. But this is not -ion's only meaning, as Ardalambion shows us:
SON yondo (male descendant), also short form yón (Yón referring to Jesus as "the Son" in the source); dative i yondon "to the Son" in VT43:36-37. Cf. also the suffix -ion, e.g. Finwion "son of Finwë". Vocative yonya *"my son", a contraction of *yondonya. (The forms vô, vondo "son" in LT2 are certainly obsolete, as are the notions there recorded that yondo meant "(great) grandson" and that yô-, yond- "son" was used only in poetry. But LT2 does confirm that -ion was "very common...in patronymics".) SON OF THE DARK (= Morgoth) morion -YO, VT44:12, 17, VT43:36-37, MR:217, LR:61, LT2:336, 344, LT1:260 cf. FS
So -ion can mean "son of". I hope that cleared up any confusion.

[Gothmog]

Yes, thank you. That cleared things up...and made others more difficult. Still no-one dares to share their views of Gildor? I expected some of the people here on the Downs engaging in a fierce debate of his origin and role in ME. Maybe this topic is already old and discussed to much...

[Rhod the Red]

I think Gildor and his company should have escorted the Hobbits all the way to Rivendell. It wouldn't have been much trouble to put off wandering in The Shire!

While the Hobbits had gone into Bree the Elves could have waited outside and then joined them once Strider led them out. Simple.

[Thinlómien]

I think Gildor and his company should have escorted the Hobbits all the way to Rivendell. It wouldn't have been much trouble to put off wandering in The Shire!

While the Hobbits had gone into Bree the Elves could have waited outside and then joined them once Strider led them out. Simple.
Maybe the Elves had something else to do. :rolleyes:

[Rhod the Red]

Surely nothing could be more important than escorting the Ring to Rivendell? In my view nothing else did, Gildor knew that Frodo was persued and it would have been logical. Was Gandalf also meant to escort them, yes. The fact he couldn't turn up only increases the necessity of escort in my view.

[Thinlómien]

I actually didn't want start arguing on this topic... *sigh*

But, as many mentioned in LotR, Elves do have their own affairs and worries and they don't want to mix up with mortals' matters.

Gildor himself said he wouldn't like to counsel Frodo. If he wasn't ready to do that (though he actually did), why would he have been ready to escort Frodo on a journey that'd take weeks?

Even if Gildor would have thought it good idea to escort Frodo, his companions maybe wouldn't. (See the first point.)

Maybe the Elves were afraid also, and didn't want to set against the nazgûl.

The Elves were no free escort or guard service.

Last, and definitely not the least, the Elves didn't know about the Ring and so didn't understand the whole importance of the matter.

[Rhod the Red]

"Elves do have their own affairs and worries" So did Hobbits, but did that stop them from trading with outsiders?

Do the Elves refrain from talking to Frodo, Sam and Pippin? No. The particular 'Wandering Companies' were just wandering as far as we know, certainly according to the name.

"why would he have been ready to escort Frodo on a journey that'd take weeks?" He was ready, but wanted to travel somewhere else. Who knows where? But they were travellers themselves, done plenty already no doubt and it wouldn't have been much trouble for them personally.

"Even if Gildor would have thought it good idea to escort Frodo, his companions maybe wouldn't." So? He was the leader of the Company, he could easilly have ordered them to follow. If they disobeyed, he could have abandoned the WC to accompany Frodo.

"Maybe the Elves were afraid also, and didn't want to set against the Nazgûl" I'm sure they were afraid, but so were Frodo, Sam and Pippin. Did that stop them from trying to jouirney to Rivendell? No, they just travelled on.

"The Elves were no free escort or guard service" Then what was Glorifindel doing? While he was ordered by Elrond to do so, does that mean Gildor shouldn't have because he wasn't? Not in my view.

"the Elves didn't know about the Ring and so didn't understand the whole importance of the matter." They didn't need to, Frodo barely knew anything, most of the story was kept secret by the White Council. If you came across others fleeing to a friend's house, surely it is logical to help them. Friends help eachother, period.

[Thinlómien]

They didn't need to, Frodo barely knew anything, most of the story was kept secret by the White Council. If you came across others fleeing to a friend's house, surely it is logical to help them. Friends help eachother, period.
I think you hit the point with this, though not for your own argument's good. The Elves weren't Frodo&Co's friends. They were on the same side and helped them, but that doesn't make them their friends.

So? He was the leader of the Company, he could easilly have ordered them to follow. *khrm* I don't believe he was a guy of that type.

If they disobeyed, he could have abandoned the WC to accompany Frodo.WC? Water closet? :eek: Care to elaborate?

I'm sure they were afraid, but so were Frodo, Sam and Pippin. Did that stop them from trying to jouirney to Rivendell? No, they just travelled on.
I think you miss the point. Frodo, Sam and Pippin knew what they were endangering themselves for. The Elves wouldn't have. A few people are willing to put their lives at stake without asking why.

So did Hobbits, but did that stop them from trading with outsiders? Trading is a different thing from mixing up in their businesses. The Elves showed the hobbits hospitality and respect that could be equal with hobbits' trading. Anyway, I hope I don't need to quote all the Elves in LotR who say that Elves take no interest in mortals...

[Rhod the Red]

Gildor and his Wandering Company(WC) could havehelped, it was not out of their way. But they chose not to, almost to their peril!

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Resurrected as per related thread.

Inglorion *could* mean 'son of Inglor (Felagund);' but it doesn't have to. As pointed out above, it's a regular genitive formation; or he could be a 'son' in the clan-sense, just like the Rohirrim were all considered 'Eorlingas' (which has a similar meaning, 'Sons of Eorl.'). So it could just as well mean that Gildor was simply a member or descendant of the 'Finrodrim,' the people of Nargothrond. Indeed the notion that he was Felagund's son would almost have to be definitively ruled out, because if he were, he would be High King of the Noldor, and indeed (by the latest genealogy) a superior claimant to Gil-galad!

Back when this thread was last active, Hammond & Scull's Reader's Companion was not out: in notes excerpted there, it is made clear that a) Gildor's company indeed came from Rivendell, and b) they were actually on their way back there, having made a visit to Emyn Beraid to look in the Palantir. But of course (b) could not possibly have been in Tolkien's mind when he wrote the chapter.

Unfortunately, nothing I'm aware of indicates whether Gildor was born in Aman or Middle-earth.

Glorfindel: a vassal and perhaps kinsman of Turgon and the House of Fingolfin, not Finarfin.

Weapons: Not necessary. The Ringwraiths (aside from the Captain) were not (now) warriors; and they were blinded, confused, and frightened by the aura of High Elves, which also apparently masked the 'Ring-scent.'

[Galin]

I think Inglorion means 'son, or descendant of Inglor'.

The genitive marker (in Quenya) is not -ion but -o and plural -on (as Silmarilli-on, Istari-on).

Here is must be a patronymic I think (-ion is a patronymic in both Quenya and Sindarin).

[Nerwen]

Yes, I think you're right, Galin.

In case people don't get that last post: the "-ion" ending of a word like "Istarion" is made up of -i (nominative plural) + -on (genitive plural).

Since there was only one Inglor, "Inglorion" must be "Inglor" + -ion (patronymic).

So we have a problem.

Perhaps Gildor was illegitimate?;)

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Not necessarily: as I said, it could have a figurative tribal sense like OE -lingas.

I can't imagine that Tolkien really meant to have a Noldorin royal pop up in the Woody End, and then make no more mention of him! In which case the name must have some alternate significance than biological son of Felagund.

[Galin]

Not necessarily: as I said, it could have a figurative tribal sense like OE -lingas.

I think the A.S. patronymic is -ing, -ingas (-ling is a suffix for forming personal nouns and adverbs)

'The patronymic -ing is used occasionally to form common nouns, as cyning, 'king', but more often with personal names to indicate 'the son of', as in Æthelwulfing, son of Ethelwulf, or a tribe, as in Helmingas, descendants of Helm.' An Anglo-Saxon Reader (Krapp and Kennedy)

But this is Elvish not Old English in any case. It seems the Elvish patronymic can be used in another way, like possibly Falassion *'son of the coast' for example (obviously not an actual child of the coast), but I think in this example, attached to a name, I would tend to go with 'son, descendant' of some Elf named Inglor.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I'll defer on the linguistics, never my strong suit... none the less, at the time Tolkien wrote the chapter Inglor was the founder of Nargothrond, not just 'some Elf', and I just don't see any indication at all that Gildor was ever conceived as descendant of Finwe.

I suppose that at this early stage, still very much in Hobbit-mode (in fact the break from that trajectory had just occurred, with the conversion of Gandalf into the Black Rider) Tolkien was prepared to be rather careless with elements from the Legendarium. But then again "We are Exiles" etc already establishes a much closer linkage than anything much in The Hobbit.

[Galin]

... none the less, at the time Tolkien wrote the chapter Inglor was the founder of Nargothrond, not just 'some Elf', and I just don't see any indication at all that Gildor was ever conceived as descendant of Finwe. ...

Right, I'm aware that Inglor was Felagund, but with respect to the later context, Inglor can be 'some Elf' (is all that I mean), no matter what Tolkien thought when he was writing the chapter.

I'll add that one of my comments above refers to a distinction in Quenya (better explained by Nerwen), posted because of what had been said earlier in the thread (including the Quenya examples), so as to try to distinguish between the Q. nominative plural marker and the Q. genitive.

That said, Gildor Inglorion would be Sindarin in my opinion. In short the genitive in Sindarin is another matter, but I still think we have the patronymic here in any case.

[Nerwen]

Yes, the name Gildor is Sindarin, but that doesn't make any difference.

His second name still means "son or descendant of Inglor". So either it's a different Inglor, or this is an unusually broad use of the patronymic. Or maybe he was adopted?;)

[lindil]

In http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2021 I posted {what seems to apply as well then as now} this:


http://forum.barrowdowns.com/ubb/icons/icon1.gif
Well I, surprisingly got to the end of this thread w/ no one expressing what to me seemed the obvious. I thought for sure I would be pre-empted. but then again maybe I am just plain wrong!

my 2 cents;

Gildor searched his heart as to what he should do for Frodo and did it.

Just because you can help someone is it always right? Gildor clearly sensed something big was afoot and he hesitated to set anything in motion that was not meant to be.

Gildor knew that the Dunedain kept watch {aragorn was almost certainly one of those warned by Gildor's highly effective communications network.
All told we know it reached Aragorn, Bombadil and Rivendell, not bad for a slacking, racist wimp. ;)


No I think Gildor Inglorion was practicing what the taoists call Wu-Wei. Acting w/out self-interest. I believe although puzzled and alarmed by the situation he weighed his possible responses in his heart and saw that it was not his or his companies part to escort them further.


But let us look at what the brief meeting did accomplish.

*The ring saved from immediate peril.
*Hobbits greatly heartend and [ Frodo and Sam at least] greatly enlightened.
*Frodo was pronounced an 'Elf-Friend' before he even left the Shire [ I believe the Elf-Friend title also had a certain blessing that went w/ it. like Faramir's staff.

*He also asked that Elbereth's Stars shine upon his road [which they undoubtedly did].

*set them up w/ food better than anything we will probably ever eat - vegetarian too if I recall.

*gave Frodo counsel to take friends [ the counsel of which helped sway him when the conspiracy was unmasked].

*Implemented the emergency contact system along the old Arthedain/Cardolan border.

not bad in my book. Actually the Gildor and co. scene has always been along w/ lothlorien my favorite in the book. I always come away so inspired I can not imagine Gildor being anything other than perfectly in-tune.


So, again Gildor did exactly what he needed to do. Just like Elrond [ a more common lightening rod for the ' he/Rivendell did not help enough' question] did not go to Mordor himself. Gildor and Elrond where wise enough to be where they were most needed and mature enough to do their part and no more, no less.

btw 'house of Inglorion' almost certainly means not 'a son of' [ in which case he proably would have been King after Gil-Galad] but 'of the household of'.

And possibly a generation or 2 removed at that. Still as Finrod was one of the noblest [ The noblest in my book] of the Noldorin princes, even being his butler would have been a good job.

[ September 19, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

______________

[Galin]

Yes, the name Gildor is Sindarin, but that doesn't make any difference. His second name still means "son or descendant of Inglor". So either it's a different Inglor, or this is an unusually broad use of the patronymic. Or maybe he was adopted?

Right, I agree that's what it means. I mean the whole name is Sindarin, and the point I was making is that the explanation above is in a Quenya context. In other words, is -ion also a genitive in Sindarin?

Technically the genitive in Sindarin wasn't really addressed, even though it would not change my mind about Inglorion.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, off the top of my head I can think of 3 Sindarin/Noldorin examples

Ereinion 'descendant of kings'
Eldarion 'descendant of Elves' (might be Quenya)
Arathornion 'son of Arathorn'

However, these date from the late or post-LR period. When did Noldorin abandon the go-, bo- prefix as a patronymic?

[Galin]

I would say Eldarion is Quenya and might contain a patronymic.

Instead of Eldar-ion with a plural 'Elves' I think (not sure) it's possible we might have Elda-ri(g)-on with *rig- 'crown' plus a masculine, as similarly, perhaps, in Telperion, or more certainly the element 'crown' in Sindarin Galadriel 'Maiden crowned with gleaming hair'

On the other matter, good question. I can say without much delving (being lazy) that at the time Etymologies was being constructed go- was said to be used for patronymics in Ilkorin (go-Thingol).

[Nerwen]

Right, I agree that's what it means. I mean the whole name is Sindarin, and the point I was making is that the explanation above is in a Quenya context. In other words, is -ion also a genitive in Sindarin?

No, Sindarin doesn't have genitive endings– it uses word-order and prepositions instead. Theoretically, "Inglorion" could just be a descriptive name or title, c.f. "Thalion"– except that as far as I'm aware it doesn't mean anything.

(I think "Inglor" is in fact meant to be a Sindarin adaption of a Quenya name.)

So I guess we're still left with Inglorion = "son or descendant of Inglor". Perhaps it's meant in a non-literal way?:confused:

By the way, "Eldarion" is definitely Quenya.

[Galin]

Etymologies aside, I think Inglor (Q. Ingalaure) means *Gold of the Ingar or (long version) 'the one with golden hair like that of the Ingar'. The Ingar being the folk of Ingwe, 'The Foremost' (Vinyar Tengwar 34)

__________

Edit: 'Gold of the Ingar' is based on texts in Morgoth's Ring however, as distinct from a look at Inglor at the time JRRT wrote the chapter where Gildor appears. On the name change, from the 'new' texts in Parma Eldalamberon 17:

'Certainly Finrod must become name of Felagund instead of Inglor, NOT of his father since 'Finrod' never left Valinor and could not have a 'Sindarized' name.' JRRT

JRRT then notes that the names of Finwe's sons were Kurufinwe, Nolofinwe and (Sara-,) Arafinwe -- adding that the mother-name of Arafinwe was Ingalaure (because his hair was golden, even more golden than the Vanyar). It is further noted that as originally written the mother-names of Arafinwe were 'Laurin or Ingalaur' the latter changed to Ingwelaure -- altered to Ingalaure. For an earlier reference to Inglor in Etymologies see root ID- *ídí 'heart, desire, wish' and etc.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Ceratinly in 1938 there was no problem with a Noldo having a Noldorin name!

I do note that the feminine patronymic -iel (Q. -ielle) came to have a general and very common meaning 'maiden'

I also could swear, but I can't find it, that in early drafts of the Lorien material Legolas is referred to as go-Thranduil. Of course, at the time both Leggy and the Galadhrim were conceived as being Ilkorins, so that doesn't help a lot.

[Galin]

Ceratinly in 1938 there was no problem with a Noldo having a Noldorin name!

Not in 1938, no ;)

I can't seem to find 'go-Thranduil' in the one volume index to The History of Middle-Earth anyway -- 'go-Thingol' isn't noted there but that appears in an Etymologies entry. Go-Feanor and go-Maidros are noted in the index (hailing from HME I) for examples. Maybe it was missed? It seems you have checked the text already however (I didn't check the text myself).

[Gwathagor]

I don't find Gildor problematic, personally, since the elves as a whole play a minor role in the War of the Ring and even, more specifically, in the story (LotR) itself. Legolas accomplishes the least of all the members of the Company. Elven-folk as a whole, with their power and significance fading, are relegated to the role of counselor-along-the-way, rather than warrior and day-saver.

[alatar]

It's funny that this thread is prominent now as, last eve, I just finished reading (rereading) that part of FotR. And in this reading, it did strike me as odd that Gildor does little to aid Frodo, or at least it seems that way. What does (or could have) Gildor and his wandering company do to help the Ringbearer?

They provide safe lodging the night that they all meet. Remember that one of the Nazgul was hot on Frodo's path when the elves showed up. If Frodo, Sam and Frodo did not travel and stay with the elves that night, just what would have happened?
The elves provide sustenance - food and drink - that aid not only the Hobbits' physical bodies but also their spirits. After a draught of the liquid placed in the waterbags, the Hobbits are ready for an army of Black Riders. Was this the courage that Frodo sought?
The next day, the Hobbits are hunted by but not captured by the Black Riders. Was this due to some help by Gildor? Farmer Maggot's dogs may have had some unseen help, and who knows what kept the Black Rider from finding the Hobbits until they were safely across the Brandywine?

On the other hand, Gildor and company seem a little to unhelpful, in retrospect. It works when you don't know what the Black Riders are, but after you realize that these are the Nine, you'd think that Gildor could have done more overtly.

But I'm no elf - even if I say both yea and nay.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Ok, at http://sindanorie.lima-city.de/RS&TI&WR.htm there's more info than my feeble linguistic ability can absorb (note at the bottom of the page). In pertinent part, we learn that


At the same time {i.e. the Gnomish Lexicon] -ion is the genitive plural of consonantal nouns, e.g. glôr 'gold' > glorion....

By the time of The Etymologies Noldorin, Ilkorin and Doriathrin are the languages of the Celtic branch. Both -on and -ion occur as agentive suffixes, as in #faron 'hunter' (SPAR-), Dúrion/durion 'a Dark-elf' (DOƷ-, DÔ-, MOR-) or else form names as Mirion 'ordinary N name of the Silevril (Silmarilli)' (MIR-), Gelion 'merry singer', also a river (GYEL-). Probably associated with this is the patronymic suffix -ion < YŌ, YON- 'son'.......

There's also Erchamion, expressly Noldorin (=Ilk Ermabuin).

But only in part. There's much, much more. Through all of Tolkien's *constant* changes of mind I think what I've learned is that Tolkien happened to like the sound of -on, -ion as an ending, and then had to explain all the different ways he used it! There is also a whole stack of geographical -ions: Eregion, Dorwinion, Dorthonion, Erydwethion, etc.

[Galin]

I was going to try and suggest a place-name 'explanation' too (stretch!), but the patronymic is still the prime choice in my book. Tolkien could be quite creative if he really wanted to wriggle out of something, but (correct me if I'm wrong) he had not published that an Elf named Inglor was Felagund (in any case).

Readers got to know 'Inglor Felagund' through what are essentially drafts, and the texts in PE17 show us once again that Tolkien could be quite fluid with his nomenclature.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

But, again, how would you interpret Erchamion? 'Son of the empty hand?' I don't think so. Sounds agental to me.

I don't think Inglor was published in the LR- but Finrod (=Finarfin) was.

[Galin]

But I have no reason to think that 'One-hand' is the name of some Man that could be Beren's father, and Beren himself becomes 'One-handed'.

Yes, I agree we could wriggle (as I say, even try a place-name). If we didn't know, Arathornion might not mean 'Son of Arathorn' technically, but it would likely be my prime choice for 'Aragorn Arathornion' if I had an idea that Arathorn was one of the West-men.

Point taken that it's not the only possibility. I would agree with that; it never was really, but the patronymic got and gets my vote if I had to choose.

[Nerwen]

Hmmn. I don't think we can resolve this question.

I still think Inglorion is most likely a patronymic (for the reasons Galin stated). Maybe Tolkien intended to have Gildor to play a more important part in the story than he ending up doing. Then later he saw no need to correct the name, because "Inglor" was no longer Felagund and "the House of Finrod" need not (I think) imply a blood-relationship.

[Galin]

I would agree Nerwen that perhaps Tolkien saw no great problem from a revised context point of view. I do think 'House of Finrod' implies family ties. In the entry for root NÔ- from Etymologies:

noss clan, family, 'house', as Nos Finrod House of Finrod.

In PE17 NO- is still a root for 'generation, people, folk, large group regarded as of common ancestry.' It seems possible that Nos Finrod was used by some in Middle-earth for (essentially) Nos Finarfin, considering that Finarfin stayed in the West.

Since I'm in Etymologies, under root ID-

'Q. indo heart, mood; cf. Indlour, Inglor (Indo-klár or Indo-glauré). N. inn, ind inner thought, meaning, heart.'

Inglor could mean 'gold-heart' according to this -- or 'splendour-heart' 'N. poetical claur splendour, glory -- often in names in form -glor' (Etymologies KAL-), and thus possibly 'gold-hearted' with Inglorion.

Though again there seems to be a later interpretation that fits with the linguistic history landed on for The Lord of the Rings (meaning Inglor as a Sindarization of Ingalaure). In PE17 indo appears, seemingly 'mind, region/range of thought, mood' from IN-I-D 'mind, inner thought'

[William Cloud Hicklin]

whereas in late writing 'heart, mood" is Ore.

[Galin]

It seems that at the time of writing The Lord of the Rings (or at least in the time 'surrounding' this general period) Inglor Felagund had a wife and children, and in notes to the QS manuscript even Gil-galad was his son. In early workings of Of The Rings of Power And The Third Age Galadriel was a daughter of Felagund the fair (and the elder sister of Gil-galad).

The conception that Inglor had no wife arose in the early 1950s in any event, in The Grey Annals. Even after this statement in GA, Tolkien, perhaps mistakenly, gave Felagund a son, Artanaro Rhodothir ('Orodreth'), but then noted that Finrod 'had no child (he left his wife in Aman)'. And in an isolated note dated 1965: 'Finrod left his wife in Valinor and had no children in Exile.'

I don't think Tolkien had even printed the name Inglor* (as a name of Felagund) in the first edition, and so readers would not think of Gildor as Inglor Felagund's son even in the 1950s. It's really a case of readers being shown (by CJRT) certain draft texts, otherwise Gildor as the son of (some Elf) named Inglor is not problematic.


Galadriel55's post in 'Ever wonder...' inspired me to come back to this.

Thus one a side note I'll add: not that Galadriel55 said otherwise, but Fingon does not really mean 'Lord of Hair' as I take the explanation. As a Sindarin name it might be interpreted 'Hair-shout', as JRRT notes in the essay (the word cáno meant 'commander' in Quenya), but even the Quenya name Findecáno didn't really mean 'Hair-commander' as much as it was the word 'commander' with fin(de) added on -- as an echo of an ancestral name -- 'and if this was also specially applicable it would have been approved as a good invention.'

And it was suitable for Fingon, since he wore his long dark hair in great plaits braided with gold. In short, the 'meaning' of the name elements together is not really the point with respect to Fingon... if one is wondering why such a odd seeming name exists that is.

:)

_________
*even if he had, there could be more than one Elf named Inglor, just as there seems to be more than one Elf named Rumil in The Lord of the Rings.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

This was rather beside the point when I started this thread eight years ago, about whether Gildor was negligent or prescient in how he helped Frodo, and that his assistance was a great deal more than met the idea and critical to the story, but no, Gildor is not a decedent of Finwe. Don't be silly. Aside from the Line of Elros, only Elrond, Galadriel and their children have such lineage in Middle-Earth. That Gildor was of high rank among the people of that House is indisputable. As for the other elves in his wandering company, I think it is fair to say that whatever he said or did, it was in keeping with the other members, who were no more or less selfish than he, but there is still the practical point of their being a probably not well-armed group of elven people.