Middle Earth maps/geography

[Prefect]

I've only gotten through the Hobbit and the Fellowship so far. . .but I'd like to know in advance so I can purchase the proper book(s)

In any Tolkien book, is there any detail about what lies over the Sea? I'm very curious about the geography and interactions between peoples. . .

[Inziladun]

By 'over the Sea' do you mean Númenor or Valinor? If Númenor, there is a map in my paperback Two Towers and in paperback UT, though not very detailed. As far as Valinor goes, I don't know of any 'official' commercially available map. There is however, The Atlas of Middle Earth by Karen Wynn Fonstad. This has many maps including some of the whole of Arda, as well as Valinor. The accuracy of some of her maps can be questioned, but overall the book is an interesting read for those curious about the geography of ME and Arda as a whole. There may be other books I am unfamiliar with.

[ November 26, 2001: Message edited by: Inziladun ]

[Elrian]

The Tolkien Illustrated Encyclopedia by david Day had quite a few different maps in it for all the ages. If you want to read about the lands and the people over the sea, buy The Silmarillion by Tolkien. It tells all about the beginning, the Valar, and the previous ages and events. Unfinished Tales is a collection of stories about some of the characters of Tolkiens books, it explains the Istari(wizards), the story of Celeborn and Galadriel, as well as many others. smilies/wink.gif

[Prefect]

I know several who are very knowledgeable. . .and I asked them the same thing.

One friend of mine told me that perhaps the maps of ME were upside-down, and that ME was America, across the sea, (which would be the Atlantic) was the land of the Men or Kings or whatever. . .and that when they came into the Americas for good, the Hobbits and Elves and Dwarves simply went into hiding, and are too clever for us to catch today!

I found that an interesting if not consistent idea!

[KayQy]

But if ME's America upside down, it would have to be South America, since "North" is farther from the equator. (This could almost make sense, since I've heard that the poles have switched places over the eons.) This would make Valinor...Africa! Or if it's not upside-down, then either America's ME and China's Valinor, or Europe and America, respectively. I am personally inclined to think the latter, not out of any filial pride, but simply because I am particularly convinced that the main ingredient of lembas is chocolate, which came originally from the Americas.


smilies/biggrin.gif I'm going to stop now...

[Elenhin]

Well... Menelvagor (Orion) and Valacirca (What do you call it in English? The Dipper or something like that?) could be seen from the Hobbits' lands, and they are constellations visible only from the Northern hemisphere. This places the 'Northwestern' Middle-Earth on the Northern hemisphere of our times as well.

As for Valinor's position on the modern Earth - it was removed from the 'Circles of the World', and is not accessible to humans. Therefore it can't be any of the modern continents.

[Orald]

Tolkien intended for ME o be a history for England, and Europe as well. So we know the maps are of prehistoric Europe. But we need to consider the scale, the length of Mirkwood is roughly the same mileage as London to Newcastle, so Tolkien must have included much of Europe. So all that has to be done once there are maps of the same scale is try and mach up coastlines as best as possible.

[Prefect]

alright, thanks for speculating with me, one more thing

I bought the Silmarillion today, and I'm looking at the map inside the cover. I know that if I read it, I'll probably find out where that stuff is. . .but being the lazy sort I am. . .where exactly is that? I've tried matching the names on it to other maps. . .and I've tried looking up elf-names of the places on the standard ME maps. . .where exactly is all that? is it in the NW corner of ME?

[Inziladun]

That's Beleriand, which in the First Age was the northwest corner of ME. If you look at the extreme right of the map you'll see Ered Luin, the Blue Mountains that lie north and south of the Grey Havens in the LoTR maps. Beleriand was sunk under the Sea by a cataclysmic event you'll read about in the book.
One word on the Silmarillion: it is a bit hard to follow the first time you read it, so you might want to take your time. And then read it again to really understand it. That's what I did.

[Prefect]

Yes. . .i've been warned about the Silmarillion. . .but actually I'm quite suited to reading things like that

I actually bought it, and four of the history of LOTR books. . .so I'll be doing much reading lately

Another geography question then:
I'm not going to read through all of the books to find this out when I can get an answer in a day or so. . .Is the Sea of Ruhn ever spoken of in detail in any books? I'm curious about that area of ME. . .and even what lies beyond it, but I'm afraid nobody's written about that. . .

[Elrian]

The sea of Rhun, the Inland sea northeast of Morder, beyond it I think is Far Harad. I read somewhere that Cuivienen was beyond it. In the Chapter Cirion and Eorl in Unfinished tales, it tells of the Wainriders that King Onedher of Gondor defeated, they went into the lands beyon Rhun and multiplied unknown to Gondor, In Cirions time they came out of those lands and began drifting towards eastern Mirkwood, slaying or driving forth up the running river into the forests. That is when Cirion enlisted the aid of Eorl. Hope that helps you some. It was also into those lands beyond the Sea of Rhun(the East) that the Blue Wizards went into when they arrived. Not much is told of them either.
Aragorn mentioned that he too had been into those lands where the stars were strange.

[Orald]

I think you are mixing your lands up a bit Elrian, I occasionally do as well, especially with the southern part of Eriador.
The Harad and Far-Harad would be the South, this would explain the different stars, because only in the southern hemisphere would there be found stars that are unlikethose in the northern hemisphere.

[Atariel]

did Tolkien actually do any maps of Valinor? if so, where can one obtain them? you see, i am totally and utterly in love with Valimar. i need maps! Argghhhh! Okay, maybe i am over-reacting, but you must see my plight. Who can think of heaven when Valimar is there? Who would choose a Caribean island over Valimar? Well, valimar before the poisoning of the Two Trees, anyway.

[Dimaldaeon]

Tolkien did actually draw some maps of Arda and guess what, the Halls of Mandos are in the North not the West. Christopher Tolkien actually knew this yet still hasn't revised the Sil to include this fact.
I don't think Tolkien ever went into much detail about Rhun and the Harad, which is a shame as i would love to know more about these areas.

[Luinadar]

Hi Prefect,
Something I discovered which you may find interesting -
"If Hobbiton and Rivendell are taken (as intended) to be at about the latitude of Oxford, then Minas Tirith, 600 miles south, is at about the latitude of Florence. The Mouths of Anduin and the ancient city of Pelargir are at about the latitude of ancient Troy." (L294)
For further geographical comparrisons try here: http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~lalaith/Tolkien/Grid.html