Who/What was Tom Bombadil

[Tarlondeion Of Gondolin]

Who/What was Tom Bombadil

[red]

An enigma.

[The Barrow-Wight]

Everything you ever wanted to know about Bombadil is right here: http://www.barrowdowns.com/Themes_Bombadil.asp

[Sharkû]

Except that the links are still to the old board. smilies/wink.gif

[The Barrow-Wight]

At least they still exist... Phew.

[Colubra]

It is debated widely over countless boards that Tom was a manifestation of England, a Vala, the spirit of the earth, or even a hobbit. And the list goes on. And of course no one will ever agree, but some thing I read in Letters, was that even Tolkien didn't know who Tom was. He said, 'Tom is Tom,' and he went on to say that it was a mystery and that was the beauty of it all, but I don't have the exact quote.

Colubra

[Dáin Ironfoot]

From what i have read and heard, I think he is a maia, one of the people of the Valar.

[obloquy]

Tom isn't Tolkien's only enigma. For example, Gandalf tells us that there were evil things in the deep places beneath the mountains that were older than Sauron! Stir up any curiosity? Well, sorry, he doesn't elaborate. They remain enigmatic.

[Dáin Ironfoot]

Yes! Ive allways wondered about "the nameless and shapeless things beneath the mountains". I think they were made by Morgoth, who else, or they were flaws in the song of the Ainur, or maybe something like ungoliant, maybe something that descended from the void? I bet the dwarves would have found them sooner or later if the balrog hadnt caused so much trouble.

[Heretic]

If memory serves me correctly, Gandalf was talking about the Balrog, so there is one of those evil things.

Originally posted by obloquy:
<STRONG>Tom isn't Tolkien's only enigma. For example, Gandalf tells us that there were evil things in the deep places beneath the mountains that were older than Sauron! Stir up any curiosity? Well, sorry, he doesn't elaborate. They remain enigmatic.</STRONG>

[obloquy]

Here's the exact quote: 'We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted. Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into dark tunnels. They were not made by Durin's folk, Gimli son of Glóin. Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day. In that despair my enemy was my only hope, and I pursued him, clutching at his heel. Thus he brought me back at last to the secret ways of Khazad-dûm: too well he knew them all. Ever up now we went, until we came to the Endless Stair.'

I don't think he was speaking of the Balrog.

[Gollumm]

If people have read The Letters, they know better the answer is "Tom is Tom", and Tom is not a Vala, nor Maia.

I do not understand why some people would wanna say "I think...", then give buncha quotes that would mislead newbies to wrong answers.

Tom is just Tom. Dont ask too much. That is not fun.

[Evil Anya]

I know a lot of people who think that Tom is a maia or the spirit of England and I've even heard someone theorize that Tom was the incarnation of Tolkien in Middle Earth. "Tom is Tom" is the idea I like best, it makes the most sense to me.

[obloquy]

That's probably because it's the only one of the opinions you mentioned that has any textual support. smilies/smile.gif

I agree with you.

[Evil Anya]

Indeed, sometimes the most obvious answer is the right one. Occam's razor and all that.

[Mithadan]

Who's Tom Bombadil? He wasn't in the Movie. smilies/evil.gif

[Luineglin]

Tom is Tom he was the first as he will be the last that is all u need to know for that is all we know and the best answer is mostly the simplesest so dont ask why or how it just is as he just is

[Elrian]

Originally posted by Mithadan:
<STRONG>Who's Tom Bombadil? He wasn't in the Movie. smilies/evil.gif</STRONG>

Only because Peter Jackson wouldn't do anything more than a cameo!
smilies/biggrin.gif

If he was the first, then wouln't he have been Eru himself?

[Luineglin]

he was first in middle-earth not first over all he has existed since the world has

[Zippo]

Tom's Character was based on a doll that one of his childern played with. I cant remember where i heard that.

[sk8er74t]

Tom Bombadil was the first in middle earth, not the first in creation. he might be an elf. the only problem is elves weren't created when he was. he takes the description of a dwarf or maybe a hobbit. but we know that he wasn't either of those. so we have to conclude that he was a screw up. he was probably the first elf ever made, and Eru didn't like him, so he discarded him. Tom probably went off into the forest, found a nice place to live, and never grew older, (much like the elves). he didn't here of any other life until he ran into it in his own forest. when he found the being he was surprised and realized he wasn't alone, and adapted. time is endless for Tom, and he is probably as powerful as the Valor. This is why he was a screw up, the Valor didn't want a race of super beings, so the said something like "let him go and live on his own," and thats what he did.

[Luineglin]

okay may i ask where u found this out? just courious.

[Luineglin]

okay may i ask where u found this out? just courious.

[orc999]

tom is a miar very much like gandalf. he owns one of the rings and is very powerful. smilies/evil.gif

[orc999]

read one of the books methadan. and i don't want you to ask who was tom bombadel again

[orc999]

sorry i spelled maiar wrong. MY BAD!! smilies/biggrin.gif

[zifnab]

tom is a miar very much like gandalf. he owns one of the rings and is very powerful.

I didnt know Tom had a ring, what kind was it, what was its power. It seems that he wasnt very interested in The Master Ring when Frodo was there. And it seemed that the ring had no power over him, when he put it on, or even the desire to have it. I think he actually laughed at it! It seems to me that Tom didnt really need a ring, all he had to do was sing a little song to get the job done.

[Elrian]

Originally posted by orc999:
<STRONG>read one of the books methadan. and i don't want you to ask who was tom bombadel again</STRONG>

Bombadil owns no Ring,That isn't in any of Tolkiens books, nor the Histories of Middle Earth. And Mithadan is a well respected, and very knowledgable member/leader round here.
smilies/mad.gif

[Kin-strife]

Dont' get upset Elrian. Orc999 obviously didn't realise that Mithadans post was sarcastic. I myself found the post irritating until I looked up to see Mithadans name, than I cracked up right in the middle of the computer room in college. It was very embarrasing and I'd thank you not to ensnare me like that again Mithadan. smilies/wink.gif

[Mithadan]

Elrian - Thanks for defending my "honor". smilies/rolleyes.gif

Kin-strife - Whoops. Sorry. smilies/wink.gif

Bombadil theories I have heard, Tom is:

1. An enigma (JRRT says this himself, but in an early draft in HoME, Tom is described as an "aborigine" - check the definition for additional cannon-fodder for arguments).

2. A Maia (if LoTR and the Sil. must be internally consistent, this is the only theory that really works).

3. Iluvatar (sorry, JRRT in Letters expressly says Iluvatar has never physically entered Arda).

4. Aule (the smith of the Valar now wanders in the woods singing nonsense songs and picking lilies? Not!).

5. Beren (there's some visceral appeal to this one, but Beren was mortal).

6. The embodied spirit of Arda/or of the Imperishable Fire (hard to disprove but not really consistent with the mythos).

7. The spirit of "unfallen" man (assumes a "fall" resulted in man's mortality which is likely not consistent with the mythos).

8. A repentant Witch-King (see the Tolkien Sarcasm page).

9. The spirit of the English countryside.

Theories I've not seen discussed, Tom is: one of the original firstborn Elves; Maglor; the real "Shepard of the Trees"; Peter Pan; Jim Morrison.

Tom REALLY is a doll which was the favorite toy of one of JRRT's kids, the subject of various bedtime tales, which he decided to work into the story.

[Gayahithwen]

Mithadan, when I first read your post, I thought you was a newbie that just had found this place because you had seen the movie, or something, but then I realised your membernumber was very low, so I guessed you was being sarcastic.. ^_^ I have no clue what Tom is (duh) and I will not even pick a guess.. the first elf theory sounds quite interesting, but I don't really think it could be right, because the elves first awoke at the same time as the stars where made, right? Oh well, ignore me.. I'm just an Animated Skeleton..

[Orald]

Now all you need to do, Mith, is disprove everything that can be and then we will have some real good theories. I am intrigued about this Jim Morrison theory, tell me more smilies/smile.gif

[Elendur]

I know Tolkien says he is an enigma. What he really means is "I'll let you find out for yourselves!". You know Tolkien purposely left some things unexplained. Very good idea if you ask me.

I have always thought that Tom was kindof like the enbodiment of Arda. When Eru made Ea, he sent the 'Imperishable Flame'. What I think is that when he did that, Tom was made. Good old Tom who knows the earths pains and joy. Quite a weird old man, but Tom is one of my favorite characters. smilies/smile.gif

The only thing I dont know is if the Valar ever saw him. You would think in the time uncounted during which the Valar made the lands and waters and everything, they would have noticed a small person hopping along with a blue feather in his hat singing Merry Dol Merry Dee Good day to the Valar! smilies/smile.gif

I am being silly, but that is really what I Think.

[Elrian]

I was more stunned than upset when I seen that post about Mithadan, I'd read his fan fiction long before I'd joined the board, I found it unbelievable anyone would say something like that. And your welcome Mithadan! smilies/wink.gif Those are some interesing speculations on who else Bombadil could be: Theories I've not seen discussed, Tom is: one of the original firstborn Elves; Maglor; the real "Shepard of the Trees"; Peter Pan; Jim Morrison. A young Santa Claus or maybe Jimmy Hoffa too. smilies/smile.gif

[Telgaladiel]

* as she stares at the discussion, trying to take it all in, her eyes begin to take on a glazed look*

Oh dear, oh dear oh dear oh dear.... my head hurts. I have so much to read, so much to read... All the mythos and everything else.

Erm, my current vote (until I read everything) is that Tom is Tom, used for JRRT's own pleasure for putting in personals in his novel.

Now, let me finish reading everything, and then I'll come back and see what else there is...

oh...my head...

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I think that Tom Bombadil is included (in LoTR at least) to provide some light relief and a short rest for Frodo et al, not to mention the reader. This would explain why he disappears, apart from a necessary mention at the Council of Elrond, after they leave the Barrow Downs.
As such, there's not really much need to explain a great deal about him; in fact the enigma makes him more compelling than he would be if we knew the whole story. I do wish he'd associated a name with that brooch, though... ;)

My question would be: Do we really want to pin Bombadil down? Surely he's more interesting as an enigma and there is a saying that we lessen what we define.

[Elrian]

Bombadil disappears? That's not in my book. Is this in the new revised edition?

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

I agree with the Squatter's second paragraph...and we will continue debating this subject because any "sensible" opinion cannot really be proven wrong, can it??
*tho anyone suggesting that Tom is Michael Jackson WILL be shot down*
and all because Tom's an enigma
smilies/wink.gif

[Elrian]

Also I doubt you would catch MJ in a outfit like Bombadils with a feather in his cap! smilies/biggrin.gif
Besides it has already been cleared up Bombadil was a doll smilies/wink.gif

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

Elrian would you put anything past him???

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

"Bombadil disappears? That's not in my book. Is this in the new revised edition?"

(Bows head in shame)
Err...it's been a while since I last read it. This would be the "Abridged by my terrible memory" version. In my defence, I am currently reading LoTR again, and the Silmarillion is next on the "must re-read" list.

Sorry.

[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: Squatter of Amon Rudh ]

[sk8er74t]

lol, i cant believe my post kept this alive. although i think that my theory is better than all the rest, because it gives an answer to the most agrivating question in the book. who Tom really is? no one knows, accept for a stupid doll that his kids played with. Christofer Tolkien, i have one up on u now smilies/smile.gif anyway, this post should be continue for forever, because its proven to be a haven for answers to a great question. "who or wat is Tom Bombadil?"

[mordor136]

If I may skip way back and comment on orc999's post. he skipped fotr. I dont know why he was even in that disscusion. smilies/tongue.gif

[Zippo]

Yes his posts were quite irrelevant....read the books....Bombadil with a ring...Eh!

[Nazgûl]

If mordor136 was smart enouph to start making fun of orc999 said he would realise that he should study in math semenar so orc would be able to stop making fun of him after each test smilies/biggrin.gif

[Nazgûl]

i meant of what orc999said smilies/redface.gif

[Paladin]

I don't agree with the theory that Tom was a Maiar like Gandalf. If that were true,he would not have been able to handle the one ring without it having an evil effect on him...the reason why Gandalf will not touch it. He is also not an Elf,as the ring probably would have sunk its "claws" into him and he would not want to return it to Frodo.

Tom although an enigma...must be some sort of supernatural being who is more powerful than Sauron,and the Maiar since the ring has no effect on him. He also laughs at it as if its pathetic!

I originally though he may be an incarnation Eru(in disguise so to speak). But if Tolkien said in his letters Eru never walked on Middle Earth,than that can't be so. I guess he'll always be an enigma...although we can at least deduce that he is very powerful,and probably supernatural in origin like the Maiar,although more powerful or at least less corruptible.

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

"more powerful than Sauron"...hmm...that depends on classification of "power". If power is an ability to remain untouched by desire, then yes-but earth-shattering power etc. I'm not so sure.
Is immunity power??!!???!!!

[Mankáno]

I don't think Tolkien wanted to explain, or decide who Tom was, he was an enigma and the only explanation is in Tom's own word to Frodo.

Something significant is that Tom said he was there (in Middle Earth) before the Dark Lord came from outside, I think he was referring to Morgoth, not Sauron, as he also said he was there before the elves went to the west.

Now, if we try to find an explanation in the books, or in Tolkien's letters or notes, we won't find any, but in the general context, it seems to me he was a maia.
We know the maiar were spirits, and there many of them, some were very powerful like Eonwe or Arien, and some were less powerful.

Of all the creatures defined in the Tolkien's books, Tom would only fit in the maiar category IMO. But that's only speculation of course

[Dwarin Thunderhammer]

Tom Bombadil is Elvis! How else can you explain all that singing and those flashy outfits? smilies/biggrin.gif

[Legolas]

Please refer to the Encyclopedia of Arda...offers the most complete examination of evidence. Tom was an entity..

[River Jordan]

Thunderhammer said:
Tom Bombadil is Elvis! How else can you explain all that singing and those flashy outfits?

He's ALMOST right! Just a little typo there - Tom Bombadil is ELVEN! Yes, it's true, the mystery is solved - he is most definitely an elf! (If not, then at the very least a good elf-friend - he's very elf-like!)

- your friendly neighbourhood elf, *River*

[Carannillion]

I've also seen somewhere that Tom (and Goldberry) is listed as a Maia. Yet, I think I'll stick to the Great Enigma thing.

Mankáno said:
Something significant is that Tom said he was there (in Middle Earth) before the Dark Lord came from outside, I think he was referring to Morgoth, not Sauron, as he also said he was there before the elves went to the west.

If he was there before Morgoth, then we truly have an enigma on our hands, because Morgoth - Melkor, as was his real name - was of the first Ainur who entered Arda; he participated in the shaping of Arda (or misshaping, if you like; destroying what the other Valar forged and built). So, if Tom was there before everyone else, I'd go for The Flame Imperishable Incarnate, or Ilúvatar's 'extended arm'. But I'm not convinced of any of these theories.

*still clinging on to Tom=Enigma*

[Luineglin]

when will this topic end ive been gone for a moth and it is still going why wont u die

[ArwenBaggins]

I agree with *river* and all the other people who think Tom is an Elf. But why dont you ask Tolkien himself! smilies/rolleyes.gif yeah right! Like we're going 2 ask a 110 year old corpse! smilies/wink.gif

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

lol it doesn't die coz you can express a "sensible" opinion without fear of being proven wrong
and arguing's just plain fun smilies/wink.gif

[Lush]

A friend of mine said this:
"Tom Bombadil is the coolest character in the LotR because he's just a sweet ancient crackhead with a pretty girlfriend."
Suits me.
Now, at the Council of Elrond, does Gandalf not talk about Tom Bombadil? Does he not say talk about the fact that Tom is "his own master", and he will be a "most unsafe guardian" for the Ring because he will forget all about it? I thought this was interesting.
Gandalf also mentions the fact that in the end, if the Dark Lord is given free reign, Tom Bombadil will fall, "Last as he was First."
No less confusing, but very curious.

[Veryamehtar]

I think Tom Bombadil was a manifestation of Eru (Iluvatar). When Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin are invited to have a meal with Tom and Goldberry, Frodo asks her, "Who is Tom Bombadil?". She answers, "He is". This is exactly what 'Eru' means and so I think this is a hint to the origin of Tom Bombadil.

[the witch king]

i see him as some kind of earth spirit, i think he was created as a part of arda unlike the valar etc who reside there in.

[bombur]

I must disagree with Paladin. The fact that the ring does not affect Tom proves nothing. If Tom is Maiar, he like Sauron needs not become invisible. And the lust for the ring is not lust for the ring itself merely. The ring corrupts moreso by the power it gives, then in itself. Gandalf clearly states the REASONS why he dares not touch it. He is not without (benevolent) ambitions. Being so concretically and lucratively offerred power to fulfill them, he fears he might not be able to resist temptation. This correlation exists through the book. Smeagol succumbs to the ring, while Deagol does not seem to. Smeagol lusts for power. Bilbo and Frodo are to a great degree unnaffected. They, like most hobbits, desire little pleasures of life. Sam seems totally unnaffected. He is kind and brave, but lets face it. Sam is simpleton not desiring anything beyond fullfilling ones duty, being loyal to ones friends, seeing wonderful things and tending a garden. Boromir succumbs. He desires power. Power in war, power to rule, fame as a savior and hero.

Lust for the ring is in great part lust for power.

Tom has no desires. He is. Other beings might have as well been safe from the lust for ring. Radagast "the simpleton", "the bird tamer" might have been one. Galadriel was able to resist the temptation. The ring was not magically beaconing to her. She was tempted by power, but she decided to "diminish, go to west and remain Galadriel." Most likely the only human who could have safely handled the ring would have been the master of the prancing pony.

Immunity to the lust for the ring does not arise from power, but rather from being content to things and oneself "as are." Being happy and simple qualifies. Being powerful enough to be exactly what one wants qualifies as well. So does having found/accepted ones place and lot in life.

***

I think Tom was Maiar as are all the "ancient" spirits/beings in LOTR. I mean including treebeard and the great eagles. I'll dig out my silmarillion and LOTR and check, if I can back this consept with exact quotes. However I see it like this. In the begining there was already a great amount of "spirits" some of them participating in the song with eru, some not. Theese spirits were of varying degrees of power (...and perchance - age). Mightiest among them being Melkor.

Then when arda was created, many decended there. Some of the more powerful became valar. Many clad themselves like the valar and became the maiar serving them. Some took residence among the kelvar and olvar or something (I think this is said in the discussion between Yawanna and Eru.) This is the origin of the eagles and ents. The eagles and ents living in the end of the 3rd age are either decendants of maiar and mortal animal/plant, or maiar who have lived in mortal body long enough to forget almost all of what they were. Some of them did not go to live with valar, but rather to live with the land, so to say. One of theese spirits/maiar is Tom. Or maybe he is not exactly maiar... if maiar means one of the servants of valar. But I think Tom is definately of the same stock as were maiar, valar, dragons, werewolves and the first ents and eagles.

[ December 12, 2002: Message edited by: bombur ]

[the phantom]

Hey, I don't know if you've seen this thread or not, but if you haven't you definitely should.
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001272