balrogs and wings debate

[Bers]

Okay, I was reading an old thread that was a long debate about wether or not Balrogs have wings. I just finished reading Fellowship for about the millionth time, and I noticed this passage because I was wondering why everyone depicts Balrogs with wings, because I didn't think they had them. This is what it says about the Balrog:

"The Balrog made no answer.The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall..."

Tolkien gave them wings, therefor they are winged. I think this is conclusive evidence, but am open to more debate.

[mordor136]

finally someone with my point of view. I have been quoting that for a long time.

[Sharkû]

Well, it's not like we have been discussing that since yesterday or so only smilies/wink.gif

[Fenrir]

Plus, when the fellowship are going along the Anduin they see a winged Nazgul and it reminds them of the balrog.

[inglorion]

Finally! People are finally talking sense smilies/smile.gif
Balrogs and wings are as alligators and teeth... of course they have them!
Greetings, gildor

[Elenhin]

Sigh.
This (http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=10&t=000137) gives quite a good summary of the no-wing point of view.

And the Nazgul-steed reminded Gimli of the shadow of the Balrog. Not of the Balrog itself.

[Edit: the link should work now.]

[ December 23, 2001: Message edited by: Elenhin ]

[obloquy]

Finally, conclusive evidence! And all this time right under our noses! smilies/biggrin.gif

[red]

LOL! Poor, poor Goldberry. I hate to break it to ya, but you have LOTS more to read. The Lord of the Rings does not contain the only references to Balrogs. You will also find more fuel in the Silmarillion and the History of Middle Earth series (12 books in all). Happy reading!

-red

[Dáin Ironfoot]

Ok I am new to this furon, but not to the books. Yes it says that Balrogs have wings, but i dont remember any reference to them flying at all. Why didnt it fly when it fell into the chasm near the bridges of moria

[Bers]

Okay, I have read Silmarillion, but I've never read the History of Middle Earth. I still think that the part I quoted says it pretty clearly though. I will definitely read the other books, and maybe it will give me more perspective. I would've read them before, but I've never heard of them. I suppose you'll laugh about that too. Go ahead, you can laugh all you want. It's not like my point was totally invalid. So there.

[Elrian]

Originally posted by Dáin Ironfoot:
<STRONG>Ok I am new to this furon, but not to the books. Yes it says that Balrogs have wings, but i dont remember any reference to them flying at all. Why didnt it fly when it fell into the chasm near the bridges of moria</STRONG>

In the Silmarillion when Melkor is attacked by Ungoliant after returning from Valinor, the passage reads that the Balrogs arose and passed over Hitlum to go to his aid.
smilies/rolleyes.gif

[obloquy]

...for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I [Galadriel] passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat.LotR

The riders passed over to the islet, and glittering eyes watched them wanly from the shadows of the banks.
LotR

A short way back the road had bent a little northward and the stretch that they [Frodo and Sam] had passed over was now screened from sight.LotR

Soon the dwindling company [of Elves], following the Isen, turned west and rode through the Gap into the waste lands beyond, and then they turned northwards, and passed over the borders of Dunland.LotR

And the host of the Teleri passed over the Misty Mountains, and crossed the wide lands of Eriador, being urged on by Elwë Singollo, for he was eager to return to Valinor and the Light that he had beheld...The Silmarillion

Thus it chanced in the waning of the year that Aredhel came to the south of Himlad, and passed over Celon; and before she was aware she was enmeshed in Nan Elmoth.The Silmarillion

Thence they [a host of Orcs] passed over Gelion with fire and terror and came far into East Beleriand.The Silmarillion

Thus led by Tuor son of Huor the remnant of Gondolin passed over the mountains, and came down into the Vale of Sirion...The Silmarillion

These are only the uses of "passed over" that deal specifically with earth-bound beings 'passing over' the ground. I intentionally excluded anyone 'passing over' rivers or bridges or the sea, since the relevancy of those uses can be debated. There are many more occurrences of this phrase that have to do with the Nazgul on their winged steeds passing over the ground, however. I only intended to prove that Balrogs 'passing over' doesn't cinch the issue. And I don't suppose it needs to be said that there are countless uses of "arose" that apply.

Well now I must arise and pass over my living room to the kitchen for a drink. smilies/biggrin.gif

[ December 23, 2001: Message edited by: obloquy ]

[Orald]

I really like obloquy. He is so wise and knows all the right answers.

[Fenrir]

Dain, when the balrog fell into the abyss it couldn't have flown because there was not enough space to use it's wings properly.

[Elenhin]

The Balrog didn't have room to use its wings in the 100-foot wide chasm, but it was able to force them through the one-orc-wide door of the Chamber of Mazarbul?

And anyway, the Balrog wasn't a giant. A creature only a bit larger than a man can not have 50-foot wide wings.

[ December 23, 2001: Message edited by: Elenhin ]

[Fenrir]

Maybe the balrog was very overweight and needed a huge wingspan. smilies/smile.gif

[obloquy]

If that was meant to be as sarcastic as it appears, Durelan, I apologize for anything I might have said or done to offend you.

[Tarlondeion Of Gondolin]

As well as all these factual reasons there is also the fact that if you look at any artwork and the film the Balrog looks way way cooler with wings

[Dáin Ironfoot]

Thanks obloguy, very helpful. Ill bet the wings had shrunk after thousands of years in Khazad dum, and therefore be useless.

[Mithadan]

Goldberry, I think that no offense was intended. The Balrog wings issue, together with the nature of Tom Bombadil, is among the most unsettled and, for reasons beyond me, inflammatory issues arising from LoTR. Everyone has VERY strong opinions and everone has reasons for holding their opinions ranging from strict construction of the words JRRT used to analysis in terms of simile/metaphor.

I note with approval that most of the "old hands", having thoroughly beaten this one into the ground, are standing aside to let our newer members reach their own conclusions and advance their own theories. Maybe someone will come up with the Ultimate Balrog Theory (and thus be awarded the honor of our Fourth Poster of the Week).

[red]

Maybe someone will come up with the Ultimate Balrog Theory (and thus be awarded the honor of our Fourth Poster of the Week).

Awww, Undé, it's too bad you aren't eligible!!! smilies/wink.gif This could have been your big chance!

-réd

[ December 24, 2001: Message edited by: red ]

[Heretic]

I should get a "Fourth Poster of the Week" with my connection thread, which no one cares about.
*sniff*