The Great Eagle Mystery

[Ulmo]

Greetings all! I am longtime Tolkien fan and a first time poster here (well, 3rd post really). This is one fantastic Tolkien site!

Anyway, I have a question for you all, one that has nagged at me for a long time:

How come Gandalf didn't simply strap Frodo onto the back of an Eagle and send him on his way to Mordor? smilies/eek.gif Seems like it would have a much more efficient way to destroy the ring, no? I realize that this would have totally altered the main storyline and create a much less exciting adventure, but the lapse in logic is glaring. Did Tolkien ever address this issue? Maybe Eagles were afraid of the Ring? Any thoughts?...........

[Serevian The Ranger]

because gandalf is not a crack head

[Serevian The Ranger]

naw i am just joking maybe because people could shoot down the eagles like the wood elves and frodo can't handle the dangers of mordor by himself and i doubt an eagle can carry horses and men, and gandalf,etc..

[Ulmo]

How can you shoot down an Eagle that is flying a couple thousand feet up in the air? Besides, it's obvious that it would be much safer to fly to Mordor than to walk/run/ride/float, yes? Why would horses have to come with them? Frodo was going to go off to Mordor by himself anyway, at the end of FotR, so why couldn't he simply go off by himself, or with Gandalf only, on the back of an Eagle?

[amyrlis]

I think it's more because the Eagles did not typically "bear" people on their backs. It was a great favor that the Lord of the Eagles did for Gandalf in rescuing him from Orthanc and bearing him to Rohan. He did it because he is in debted to Gandalf - Gandalf saved his life once by healing him of an arrow wound. It would have been too much to ask for the Eagle to carry Frodo all the way to Mordor. Also, the Eagles are "servants" of Manwe, kind of like Gandalf serves the Valar. Gandalf can not use his power to rule men, only to guide them. I think the Eagles role is much the same - they can provide aid, but need to remain a bit removed from the troubles of Middle Earth. Anyway, just my thoughts.

[Mithadan]

This is a frequently discussed question. The obvious answer, that it wouldn't be much of a story then, doesn't serve here. Otherwise, there are several possible responses.

1. The eagles were not under Gandalf's control. In the Hobbit, they were attracted to the fir wood by the fire and commotion, and the Battle of Five Armies by the din and hue of war. Gandalf is rescued from Orthanc by an eagle who journeyed there at Radagast's request and later from the top of Zirak-zigil perhaps at Manwe's request.

2. Assuming that Gandalf did not know of the airborne Nazgul, Sauron did nonetheless have spies in the air in the form of crows, etc. The Ringwraiths were abroad and were capable of sensing the Ring. A flight of eagles bearing Frodo and the Ring would eventually be detected before reaching Mordor. The eagles could not fly the whole way at once so there was danger of assault during a rest stop and again when the eagles reached Mordor.

3. Gandalf knew of the Nazgul, or suspected that Mordor was otherwise protected from intrusion via the air. A flight of eagles would have been very open and obvious as it approached Mordor.

4. The eagles could not carry such a burden over such a distance or they would not do so. Also, the eagles were only nominal allies; the Hobbit notes that some are not trustworthy.

I'm sure I'm missing a few possible reasons. Welcome to the Barrow-Downs Ulmo!

[Voronwe]

The Eagles certainly seem rather mysterious beasts. They either turn up when escape by other means appears impossible, or at the crucial moment of a finely balenced battle.

It is possible that the Eagles were a way in which the Lords of the West influenced events in Middle Earth when a little help was needed. For example, the consequences of Gandalf not being rescued from Orthanc would quite likely have been disasterous.

However, if the eagles were under the control of the Lords of the West, they would almost certainly have not been prepared to do something as direct as carry the Ring to the fire. The Ring 'belonged to Middle Earth' - it was something for the free peoples to deal with on their own.

From a pratical standpoint, it would probably have been a very tiring journey for both Frodo and the Eagle carrying him. I don't recall any instances of people actually riding on Eagle's backs - they always seem to have been carried by the arms. All the recorded 'eagle carryings' were over relatively short distances compared to the flight from (say) Rivendell to Mordor.

Finally, even if an eagle had succeeded in carrying Frodo and the Ring all the way to Mount Doom, Frodo would not have been able to throw it into the Fire, and the whole quest would be vain. Frodo would quickly have been spotted by Sauron, and the ring would have been taken from him and returned to Sauron.

It was Galadriel who sent Gwaihir to look for Gandalf when he was carried (newly reincarnated) from Zirak-Zigal.

-Voronwe

[Ulmo]

Interesting insights, thank you Amyrlis, Mithadan, and Voronwe. smilies/smile.gif

Still tho, it seems odd to me that the journey would be a difficult one for an Eagle. If a Butterfly can fly 3,000 miles+ [give or take smilies/smile.gif] (The Monarch), in one migration, it doesn't seem a stretch to believe that a 9-10 ft. Eagle could fly from Rivendell (or anywhere else) to Mordor, even with an 80 lb.(?) Hobbit in tow! If it wouldn't be wise to have the Eagle fly straight into Mt. Doom (and why this, I am still not quite clear)[the image of Frodo on the back of an Eagle, flying into the heart of Mordor, with Wagner music blaring in the background, with the enemy all around them, dodging one close encounter after another, "delivering the payload", and then flying out of there to safety is pretty damn cool! smilies/eek.gif ] , wouldn't it still be better to have the Eagle "drop Frodo off", so to speak, somewhere near Mt. Doom, or Mordor? Seems like it would eliminate a lot of potential encounters with the enemey on the ground. And if Gandalf could not summon an Eagle, why not Radagast? (Could Gandalf have gotten in touch with Radagast?) Why not Galadriel? Also, I understand that if you had a big flock of Eagles, say for one for every member of the Fellowship, it would be easy for the enemy to spot, but what about one elite Eagle (with Frodo), flying high and stealthy, under cloud cover? Would that be easy for the enemy to spot? It doesn't seem like it would be. Anyway...........

Food for thought smilies/rolleyes.gif

[ December 28, 2001: Message edited by: Ulmo ]

[Princess Of Darkness]

I have a question. How would Frodo breathe if he were flying that high in the claws (or on the back) of an eagle. Doesn't the air get thin at that elevation? i don't know about that kind of thing, and i just wondered.

[Maédhros]

Another possibility:

The mountains surrounding Mordor are too high for the eagles to fly over.

However, I think I'll stick with the explanation previously posted - that the eagle would be spotted and the ring subsequently captured by Sauron, thus defeating the purpose.

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

this may be a weak point but the air above Mordor was always thick with smoke and ash-which would make it hard to both breathe and navigate

[Mister Underhill]

As Voronwe has noted, even if the Eagles could have flown Frodo to the entryway of Orodruin, the quest still would have failed. Frodo, unprepared and untempered by his journey, would certainly have claimed the Ring rather than casting it into the fire, and without Gollum along, there is no doubt as to the eventual outcome of that scenario. JRRT hints in Letters that if Gollum had not caused the Ring’s destruction in the way that he did, Frodo might have had a moment of clarity after claiming the Ring where he could have thrown himself (and it) into the fire for a suicidal victory, but I’d venture to say that an untested Frodo would not have been able to accomplish that. The journey was necessary, and Gandalf’s foresight that Gollum would play a pivotal role at the end turned out to be true.

I know we usually stick to Tolkien’s works here, but stepping back and viewing the story in mythological terms (once again), I’m struck by this topic as an example of something I recently read in Joseph Campbell (a well-known authority on comparative mythology): “…if the hero, instead of submitting to all of the initiatory tests, has, like Prometheus, simply darted to his goal (by violence, quick device, or luck) and plucked the boon for the world that he intended, then the powers that he has unbalanced may react so sharply that he will be blasted from within and without..."
[ January 04, 2002: Message edited by: Mister Underhill ]

[Legolas]

The butterflies don't carry extra baggage smilies/wink.gif

The trip is a long one...the Eagle would have to stop to let Frodo rest and eat.

Even if the Eagles were at the command of Gandalf, and one *could* carry Frodo that distance, evil would be drawn to the ring. Through the palantir, Saruman could've easily spotted their plan and I'm sure that with his vast power and knowledge of magic, he could've made the journey unbearable for the eagle.

[ May 01, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Elendur]

and later from the top of Zirak-zigil perhaps at Manwe's request.

I thought that Galadriel had sensed that Gandalf was still alive and in need of help so she sent out an eagle *Gwaihir?* to look for him. Then he saw the lightning and such coming from the top of Zirak-Zigul and came there to find Gandalf.

[Luineglin]

your right i think she did send a eagle to look after him. and i like your sig.

[Telepréion the Elf]

I dunno much but isn't the only reason the plan wored anyway because it was the last thing that Sauron expected them to do? Anything else would have therefore easily been foreseen!

[Ulmo]

Yeah, you guys are right, the plan probably would not have worked (and we wouldn't have had the great, epic story of the War of the Ring if it had worked, so I am glad it didn't turn out that way). I just like the image of Frodo, on the back of a giant Eagle, soaring into the heart of Mordor! smilies/wink.gif

BTW, what do giant Eagles eat? Deer? Orcs? Men!?

Thanks for all of your insights. smilies/smile.gif

[Elrian]

Sheep according to the Hobbit.

[Jellinek]

The Eagle in question could ofcourse have tossed the ring in the fire himself, either with or without a hobbit attached.

Don't flame me for this plz, I'm in a particularly evil mood today

[Voronwe]

Would the ring have corrupted the eagle, I wonder.

-Voronwe

[Mister Underhill]

I don't think an eagle could fit down the shaft leading to the Sammath Naur. Whether the "smoking cone" of the mountain provided a large enough aperture to dive bomb a Hobbit through is open to debate.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I agree with Mr. Underhill on the deeper, mythological meaning of the long journey. We would probably all like shortcuts in life, but find out that they don't take us where we want to go, or need to go, perhaps. We aren't ready for the goal until we've completed the way there.
Frodo would not have had the inner (and outer!) strength for the final, most difficult part of the journey had he not built it up through earlier experiences. (Kind of like athletic training for the soul!)
And at the end of the book, when Gandalf leaves the hobbits, he tells them that their experiences have been trained them to take care of the Shire's problems without him.

[Birdland]

OK, here goes: (since we can't use the "would have ended the book" defense.)

Sauron would probably have had defenses that would have forbidden Gwaihir and his folk from entering his realm. Like "Eagle Zappers" or something.

But when the ring was destroyed and Sauron was cast down then all his defenses would have failed, making it (relatively) safe for the eagles to swoop in and rescue Frodo and Sam.

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

BTW - What IS the airspeed velocity of an unladen eagle?

[Sindalómiel]

Originally posted by Birdland:
<STRONG>OK, here goes: (since we can't use the "would have ended the book" defense.)

Sauron would probably have had defenses that would have forbidden Gwaihir and his folk from entering his realm. Like "Eagle Zappers" or something.
</STRONG>

Are those like giant bug zappers? smilies/tongue.gif

[Birdland]

Originally posted by Sindalómiel:
<STRONG>

Are those like giant bug zappers? smilies/tongue.gif</STRONG>
Exactly! Eagle Zappers, Hobbit Hotels, Ranger Raid...there is no end to Sauron's treacheries. smilies/evil.gif

[Lindolirian]

If Frodo were to fly to Mordor on an Eagle, there would have to be an armada of Eagles to protect them from the fliyng Nazgul. Many Eagles would have to die protecting Frodo and the one who carries him. The eagles were most likely not willing to do this. Also there is a chance that the Nazul would have killed frodo, or the eagle that bore him and all would be lost. It is better to sneak in rather than an all out attack. I think the Council of Elrond chose the smarter thing and that's why it worked.

[SlinkerStinker]

I don't recall any instances of people actually riding on Eagle's backs - they always seem to have been carried by the arms.

In The Hobbit, when the eagles return the group from their eyrie, they let at least Bilbo ride on the back of the eagle.

This time he was allowed to climb on to an eagle's back and cling between his wings.

Also from the hobbit, the Eagle Lord in speaking with Gandalf says that they won't fly them near men less they think the eagles are coming to steal their sheep and shoot at them. If they are that adverse to flying into the "danger" of a lone sheppard, flying into Mordor would have been out of the question until Sauron was defeated.

[Smaug]

If eagles could fly over the Pelori, they could easily fly into Mordor. Also, Gandalf knew that Frodo might give in to the ring. Gandalf also knew that Gollum was important to the quest.

[Finwe]

I think that the Eagle Zappers that everyone is talking about were the flying Nazgul. I mean, think about it. Can an unarmed eagle fight a Ringwraith on top of a clawed flying lizard-thingy? Especially if it has a Hobbit on its back? Even if it could, I don't think anyone would want the Eagle to succeed. Think about it. "In place of a Dark Lord you shall have an EAGLE! Not dark, but feathery!" The thought itself is amusing.

[drigel]

I think Sauron would also remember what damage eagles could do back in his young lieutenant days, and had the proper zappers plugged in for them...

You could ask the same question of why didnt Bombadill or Beor do it? Enigmas.......

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

You could ask the same question of why didnt Bombadill or Beor do it?

Beor- as one of the Fathers of Men had been dead for several thousand years at the time of the War of the Ring. smilies/wink.gif

Beorn- (which is who I think you meant) was also, I believe dead at this point. Tolkien mentions specifically that in the time since Bilbo visited that the leadership of his 'tribe' had been taken over by his son, Grimbeorn. This suggests, at least to me, that Beorn himself had died. As for why he wouldn't have taken the ring, go back and read that chapter over again. He's really less of a likely candidate than Bombadil. Very disinclined to join the affairs of the world.

smilies/rolleyes.gif I just had to jump in and mention the difference between Beor and Beorn. I suppose it's a common typo, as I see it rather a lot.

Sophia

[Tinuviel of Denton]

And Bom badil was the same way. Someone did suggest that they send the Ring to him, but they (the smart people at the council) knew that he would forget about it, and wouldn't take proper care. Frankly, I can't see him leaving Goldberry and the Old Forest, just to destroy the Ring, even though it did have no power over him.

Sorry about the space in the middle of Tom's last name, but the program keeps censoring the first part of it.

[ June 02, 2003: Message edited by: Tinuviel of Denton ]

[ June 02, 2003: Message edited by: Tinuviel of Denton ]

[cheesemaster]

How well do you think that one eagle could take on 9 nazgul. Or even if there were more Sauron would surely know of the eagles approach and send billowing smoke over his mountains. The eagles wouldn't fare very well in ash from MOUNT DOOM! So they would have to fly low, and you get shot with arrows if you fly low. Sauron would have a plan for that anyways, he is one smart man. smilies/evil.gif

[Envinyatar Tauro]

I think you are ignoring the obvious fact of the ring itself. We know the ring has different levels of influence over different species. The reason Gandalf didnt take it apon himself to carry it was that he would not be able to resist its power.
I dont remember any direct evidence of this with the eagles, but its certainly possible that they have a low resistance to the ring's power, so they could not be trusted even with carrying one who held it.

[Gilthalion]

Another potential hazard for an aerial assault would be the weather itself. If Sauron's arm was long enough to send a storm upon Caradhras, then surely he could whip up a doozy of a storm closer to home. This, combined with the lack of secrecy, the smokes, vapors and ashes from Oroduin, and the Nazgul, crows, and Sauron-knows-what-else, would have almost certainly doomed the mission. Besides, it seems that Manwe sends the Eagles to the rescue AFTER the people have faithfully done what was needful.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

While the storm on Caradhras may not have been anything to do with Sauron, it is true that
His arm has grown long indeed
and that he had to power to do such things. As I've said, the Nazgul were in all probability faster than the Eagles in flight, and certainly much better aerial warriors. Eagles were dreadful to those on the ground, but such birds of prey need to drop from a height and strike with talons. The Nazgul not only wielded swords and dragonish creatures that probably could fight in the air, but fear. A guard of Eagles would not have been much good, as the Nazgul would know immediately which one was carrying the Ringbearer.

It simply fits in with the point of the whole thing, that a full assault on Mordor is doomed to failure. Mordor was invincible to the powers that its enemies wielded.

[Noxomanus]

All in all it would be stupid to try this.Eventhough destroying the Ring in Mt. Doom was 'folly and a desperate action'.

[Meneltarmacil]

I think the Eagles were faster than the ringwraiths' beasts, but the ash and dust would slow them down and make it impossible for the eagles to fly. The ringwraiths and their beasts are used to ash and dust, and could easily have overpowered them.
BTW, what do giant Eagles eat? Deer? Orcs? Men!?
ANYTHING THEY WANT TO!

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Yes, such as sheep, stolen from the Woodmen I believe.

Actually it's impossible to say which was faster, Nazgul or Eagle. Both are fast. There is some evidence to suggest that Nazgul are faster, though, namely that they were able to fly, in the Battle of the Captains of the West, from the Morannon, across Gorgoroth and thence perhaps over half the way to Orodruin in less than a minute -- of course, they burnt up when Gollum finally fell in. There is the feeling that they did manage cover a lot of the distance between the Gates of Mordor to Mount Doom before the Ring was destroyed.

[Finwe]

That was also because they were driven by Sauron's desperation to get there. His very existence depended upon them getting to Orodruin in time. That was a very powerful driving force, and since Sauron put his entire will into getting him there, it is understandable that they made that journey in about a minute or two.

[Friend of Fingon]

Perhaps the Eagles did not aid the Fellowship in their quest to destroy the ring by simply flying them to Mordor because the plight of the ring was for the free peoples of Middle Earth to accomplish. The Eagles, although mortal, were considered the messengers and servants of Manwe and were allowed to aid the peoples of Middle Earth in times of need, but maybe not with this specific quest....who knows.

I believe they could make the trip, as Eagles did nest in the highest peaks of the Misty Mountains in the third age, and could fly great distances and easily carry a man. However I agree that the clouds of ash and the summoned elements of weather would be a deterrent to them. But I do think a squad of Eagles would easily handle the Nazgul and their flying steeds. After all, the Eagles do have a solid history of combat and taking care of business. Remember, these were the creatures that fought and destroyed Ancalagon and his brood in the War of Wrath. Even if the Eagles of the Third Age were one-third the size of their kin from the First Age, they would still have a wingspan of roughly 50 feet along with talons, beaks, brains, and the ability to fight as a team in battle. My money would be on the Eagles of Manwe over the slow-witted Nazgul-gang any day.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Welcome to our humble Tolkien-obsessed universe, Friend of Fingon. I hope you find your stay here, as I'm sure we'll find your posts, enjoyable.

Slow-witted? Well, I don't think so smilies/smile.gif. TheNazgul would have been formiddable aerial fighters; however, your pointing-out of the Eagle's involvement in the War of Wrath does cast some doubt into the theory that the Nazgul would have been able to beat them.

It raises another issue, as well. Along with your statement:
because the plight of the ring was for the free peoples of Middle Earth to accomplish. The Eagles, although mortal, were considered the messengers and servants of Manwe...
. In the War of Wrath, which was for the salvation of the Free Peoples of Middle-Earth, the Eagles played a significant part. The Valar certainly had a part in this part of Middle-Earthian history; admittedly this situation was rather different, then.

But there are also the Istari, without whom the Free Peoples of Middle-Earth would also have been destroyed. They too were a direct intercession on the part of the Valar, so as you can see, the War of the Ring was not entirely fought only by people of Middle-Earth. The Eagles themselves had a part in the War of the Ring as well; there was first the rescue of Thorin and Co (most important), and then the Battle of Five Armies, and along with that there was Gwaihir's rescue of Gandalf from Orthanc -- absolutely vital -- and from Zirak-Zigil, equally vital. Yes... so as you can see the Valar, even through the Eagles, which are the subject of our discussion here, did not in fact leave the War of the Ring up to the peoples of Middle-Earth at all.

I should have thought that an Eagle attack on Mordor, while a seemingly more forthright act than those stated above, could have been counted to fall under this permissable Valarin involvement.

smilies/smile.gif Having said this, it is true that a glorious Eagle attack would have almost totally taken away from the Gondorin/Human/Elvish fighting contribution to the victory of the War of the Ring. Aragorn would not have proved himself, and neither would Gondor have; who knows? perhaps Gondor would have gone soft after this, a land become sheltered, with a protected king. At any rate, the fact that Aragorn and Gondor/Rohan had to fight, in battle, for their salvation is important.

Perhaps this particular element of the War of the Ring was better left up to Middle-Earthians, then. Hmmm... smilies/smile.gif still, the fact remains that it would be Frodo who would have to throw the ring into the fire in the end. That he was transported there by the Eagles can, perhaps, in this case be said to play a similar role to that of Gwaihir in rescuing Gandalf.

-----
Having worked myself up to this point in a somewhat haphazard fashion, I will conclude by reaffirming by belief that the Eagles, while undoubtedly terrible fighters, would not have carried such a mission as this through. The chance that they would be 'feared' out of the sky is a distinct one, as well as the possibility of their being dismayed and quenched by Sauron's massive emanating psionic power (there would have been no greater power there to shield them from this, and they could not have escaped the range of Sauron's Eye were they to execute this mission). There is more, though.

It is interesting to note that Gwaihir, reported to have been in the area at the time of the Battle of the Pellenor, did not lead any attack on the Nazgul themselves in this battle; neither could they attack the Nazgul in the battle before the Gates, a battle in which they were definitely there in numbers. It may well be that the feat was beyond them, you know.

Finally, the really clinching reason for me is the Nazgulian ability to 'sniff' out the Ring's whereabouts, especially within Mordor itself I should think. As I have pointed out, it is likely that they would know exactly which Eagle (i.e. the one that was carrying Frodo) to go for. The power of all nine of them at once, supported by the nearby Sauron, would have scattered Eagles right and left in their charge; and whichever unfortunate Eagle happened to be carrying Frodo would be mercilessly beaten out of the sky and pillaged for his Ringbearer and Ring. The other Eagles wouldn't matter. The Nazgul would have, surgically almost, removed the Ring from the Eagle pack with mightful ease -- and then of course it would have failed.

Rather a long ramble, and done hastily as well... it should be understandable smilies/smile.gif. Anyway, welcome again. I hope it's of some use.

[ August 27, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Very extensive, Master Eagle! :)

If Gondolin could be protected by immense siege weapons, Sauron, who no doubt knows of the existense of eagles, could have built giant machines for shooting things out of the air. Maybe a precursor of the Patriot missile, don't you think?

And, the destruction of the Ring doesn't mean that the war is over.

[Insert quotes here, but my book is missing]

Sure, they could have ended Sauron forever(assuming they successfully do it), but what about the Southrons? The Easterlings? The Corsairs seething for revenge? Maybe many would slink away, seeing the fall of Sauron, but many, who only depended on Sauron as a sort of united banner, would still have laid waste to the rejoicing Gondorians! C'mon - Sauron destroyed? The people of Gondor would flip over in joy, and won't realise their mistake until it is too late!

[willkill4food]

I wonder what delusion of grandure an eagle would have (ie Sams changing Mordor into a giant garden), maybe the entire land full of thousands and thousands of sheep and horse, no one in the world would know how to use a bow and arrow, and of course no annoying wizards to have to rescue...

I doubt any eagle would of accepted the journey, just as maybe other powerful beings in ME did, the eagles really seem to show up just for rescues, they dont get the people into the mess, they get them out of it...

-willkill

[Mister Underhill]

Downers aren't the only ones to ponder the Great Eagle Mystery, as this dramatization (http://mirror1.howitshouldhaveended.com/HISHE_LOTR_small.wmv) (7MB video) shows.

[Bergil]

someone once hypothesised that the animal minds of the eagles would fall easily to the lure of the ring, and they knew it. this seems very beleivable.

[obloquy]

What would an animal do with the Ring?

[Boromir88]

The Eagles aren't a Middle-earth taxi service and would never agree to such a thing. The times that the Eagles have helped out they only agree to take their passengers so far. In The Hobbit and when Gwaihir rescues Gandalf on Orthanc, both times the Eagles only took their riders so far. They aren't powered by Engergizer batteries and do get tired.

[Raynor]

They aren't powered by Engergizer batteries and do get tired.Yet in The field of Cormallen, Gwaihir tells Gandalf:
- I would bear you, answered Gwaihir, whither you will, even were you made of stone.Admitedly, he is the mightiest of Thorondor's descendants, but still - one eagle who _could_ be up to it.

[Thinlómien]

Downers aren't the only ones to ponder the Great Eagle Mystery, as this dramatization (http://mirror1.howitshouldhaveended..._LOTR_small.wmv) (7MB video) shows.
That link doesn't work for me. Are you sure you have the correct address or do I just have problems with my computer?

[Mister Underhill]

D'oh! I of all people should know to check my links when I post. The busted one above is now fixed (http://mirror1.howitshouldhaveended.com/HISHE_LOTR_small.wmv). Thanks for the heads-up, Thin.

[Thinlómien]

D'oh! I of all people should know to check my links when I post. The busted one above is now fixed (http://mirror1.howitshouldhaveended.com/HISHE_LOTR_small.wmv). Thanks for the heads-up, Thin.
You're welcome. :)
I checked it; it was funny :)

[Glaurung]

An interesting topic... I think it would be very weird if the eagles wouldn't refuse to do that. They weren't very interested in the wars of men anyway, were they? And even if Gandalf would have one of the eagles consented to carry Frodo to Mount Doom, it would have been quite easy for Sauron or his servants to spot a great eagle with a hobbit on its back flying to Mordor, save flying straight to Mount Doom. Of course the eagle could have left Frodo somewhere outside Mordor, but how could Frodo then get over the mountains, for he would then be alone (for nine eagles carrying the fellowship would look a bit weird to Sauron, wouldn't it?) with not even Gollum helping him... If I'm right with the fact that it would be impossible for Gollum to follow an eagle flying high, if Gollum even knew about Frodo riding an eagle. :p

[Farael]

This sure is an interesting topic... but I think there are two points that are not being considered.

-If I'm not mistaken (and I may be) at the Council of Elrond, it's said that a frontal attack on Mordor would undobtedly fail. A lot of eagles flying straight into Mordor would be considered a frontal attack, right?

-Now, even if the Eagles managed to beat out the Nazghul (or their lovely birds, because a grounded Nazghul is not able to fight a flying eagle) avoided the poisonous gases and other such things and were not tempted by the ring... what would stop Sauron from detaching a couple thousand orcs, men and even Oliphaunts to Mt. Doom? or even better, why would HE not be there? If I'm not mistaken, it's in the movie not the book where it's said that Sauron can't regain his shape. I might be wrong, but there's nothing in the book to say that Sauron could not go there and ruin the party for the eagles.

Even if Sauron could not take a human(oid) shape, there would certainly be A LOT of orcs and such things clogging everything up. Heck, I'm sure Sauron would be willing to force the orcs to put up even wooden structures on top of where the molten lava is to get the Ring... and if a couple thousand Orcs die in the fires, whawt does he care? once he's got the ring it's game over.

[Raynor]

I might be wrong, but there's nothing in the book to say that Sauron could not go there and ruin the party for the eagles.In letter #246, Tolkien states that:
Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic. In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanour and countenance.In the same letter, he comments on how Sauron himself would come to claim the ring from Frodo (if he didn't destroy it). In The black gate opens, TTT, Gollum says that "he has only four (fingers) on the Black Hand", which is a further indication that Sauron has a body.

[Farael]

In letter #246, Tolkien states that:
In the same letter, he comments on how Sauron himself would come to claim the ring from Frodo (if he didn't destroy it). In The black gate opens, TTT, Gollum says that "he has only four (fingers) on the Black Hand", which is a further indication that Sauron has a body.

Thanks Raynor, I do not have the letters but I did remember Gollum's quote. Yet I was not sure it might have meant something else. Thanks a lot.

[A_Brandybuck]

I think, that the real question concerning the eagles is not, if they would make it to fly to the Orodruin with Frodo and the Ring, but if they are allowed to interfere in the events of Middle-Earth.
It has been often posted, that the Eagles are the messengers of Manwe in Middle-Earth. Consequently they are under the control of Manwe. But we know, that the Valar, of course including Manwe, sent the Istari to Middle-Earth to assist the Free Peoples of Middle-Earth in their fight against the Dark Lord Sauron.
But the Valar didn't send the Istari to lead the Free Peoples of Middle-Earth against Sauron and consequently play the main-role in defeating Sauron. So why shouldn't the same rules count for the Eagles?

When the Valar wanted the Eagles to play a main-role in freeing Middle-Earth, why did they make the efforts that the Istari were diminished in power and their mission had only supporting character?

But flying with Frodo to Mount Doom means exactly taking a(the) main-role in defeating Sauron.

[Sardy]

I think, that the real question concerning the eagles is not, if they would make it to fly to the Orodruin with Frodo and the Ring, but if they are allowed to interfere in the events of Middle-Earth.
It has been often posted, that the Eagles are the messengers of Manwe in Middle-Earth. Consequently they are under the control of Manwe. But we know, that the Valar, of course including Manwe, sent the Istari to Middle-Earth to assist the Free Peoples of Middle-Earth in their fight against the Dark Lord Sauron.
But the Valar didn't send the Istari to lead the Free Peoples of Middle-Earth against Sauron and consequently play the main-role in defeating Sauron. So why shouldn't the same rules count for the Eagles?

When the Valar wanted the Eagles to play a main-role in freeing Middle-Earth, why did they make the efforts that the Istari were diminished in power and their mission had only supporting character?

But flying with Frodo to Mount Doom means exactly taking a(the) main-role in defeating Sauron.

Agreed. None of the other explanations (tired eagles, eagle zappers, etc.) make much sense and seem to be grasping at straws. On a side note, I disagree with Frodo needing to make the long jouney in order to be "tempered" enough to release the Ring---I believe the opposite. The Ring's power over Frodo grew with every passing moment of the journey, until it nearly had him in the end. I think that Frodo was in much better physical and psychological---and spiritual---condition ealier in his journey...

I prefer to consider the Eagles as messengers of Manwe and not wanting to take an active role in changing the course of history in Middle-earth. Their actions (rescuing Gandalf from Orthanc could be viewed as an "issue" between Istari that never should have occured in the first place---and rescuing Frodo and Sam from Mount Doom as action after the conclusion of the war had been determined).

One question though: What of the Eagles involvement in The Battle of Five Armies? (Other, of course, than that Tolkien had not adequately thought out his mythology at that point...)

Also, the Eagles mandate of non-involvement aside, there is a point about them vs. Nazgul that I would like to make. At the Council of Elrond (where the decision to have an Eagle carry Frodo would have been made) the ringwraiths had just been washed away at the Ford. When Frodo asks if that is the end of them, Gandalf replies, "No, their horses must have perished, and without them they are crippled. But the Ringwraiths themselves cannot be so easily destroyed. But there is nothing more to fear from them at present." If the Eagles had been an option, the timing could not have been better---the Ringwraiths were crippled and far from their Fell beasts. And I know of no other winged forces of Sauron...

[Formendacil]

Personally, I hold to the theory that the Eagles carrying Frodo to Mordor would have been WAY too obvious...

Not from a storyline point of view, but from and in-story point of view.

The Eagles, you know, are pretty conspicuous creatures. Any sighting of them tends to herald something big. So Sauron, who's eyes are constantly scouring the West for signs of suspicious activity (like Aragorn...), and whose Palantír handily solves the problem of limited sightrange, would most likely have seen the Eagles coming.

What then?

Well, even the Eagles take a certain amount of time to go from Point A to Point B. Sauron, who certainly would have had Rivendell at the top of his "to watch" list at the time Frodo was there, would have noticed almost immediately if the Eagles had picked up some passengers, and headed straight to Mordor.

Sauron, who was in a corporeal form, and more than able to move and fight (contrary to what PJ would have us think...) would certainly have time to get to Orodruin, and camp out there.

And even without the Winged Nazgûl, there were undoubtedly several ways in which Sauron could attack a flying eagle. But even if there wasn't, he could just wait at Mt. Doom until Frodo, Gandalf, and the Eagles showed up.

What then?

Well, since Gandalf was still Gandalf the Grey, and had not yet received his greater mandate as Gandalf the White, he probably would have died. After all, the Balrog got him, and Sauron was a lot stronger than the Balrog. Meanwhile, all it takes is a host of orks to keep Frodo occupied (or even just a big boulder in front of the entrance) so that he can't drop the Ring in.

With Gandalf and any other companions dead, Sauron can now turn his full attention to Frodo. Face to face, the Ring wanting to return to Sauron, is there any doubt what would happen?

Sauron would regain the Ring.

Remember, the great strength of Gandalf and Elrond's plan was it's utter foolishness. The reason that was so successful was that it meant that it was an IGNOREABLE thought, and so Frodo and Sam were able to SECRETLY sneak into Mordor. Eventually, Gandalf even went so far to aid this secrecy that he risked pretty much half the military might of the West in a suicidal march on the Morannon.

The Eagles aiding the Battle at the Morannon was therefore an asset at this point, since it added to the spectacle and likely helped keep Sauron's attention on the West. As for the Battle of Five Armies, there was no Sauronic threat at the time, nor was there any reason for secrecy.

That, basically, is my opinion.

[Sardy]

Not sure that I agree. Sauron's downfall was that, in his lust for power, he never in his wildest imagination considered that anyone might try to destroy the Ring. THAT was the strength of Gandalf's plan, not it's "foolishness."

That said, if Frodo (or Gandalf, or Aragorn, or Glorfindel) were to attempt to ride an Eagle to Mt. Doom, they would have had a very good (better that Frodo walking it there) chance. I still contend that the Ringwraiths were currently out-of-commission. Sauron would never have blocked passage to Mt. Doom (either with orcs or boulders) because he would have assumed that whoever was riding the Eagle was riding in to challenge him mano-e-mano using his own ring against him. Sauron would've been shocked and dismayed as the Eagle swooped right on past his tower and on to the Crack of Doom, leaving the Dark Lord with no time to do anything but watch as the Ring's inevitable unmaking proceeded.

[Formendacil]

Sauron would not necessarily have expected a one-on-one fight. The Eagles, after all, were the messengers of Manwë, and their appearance would mean a certain blessing from the Valar- a blessing that a one-on-one fight USING the Ring would never have garnered from the Valar.

Furthermore, anyone with strength half-ways capable of challenging Sauron with the Ring would have spent time using it, becoming stronger. They wouldn't hop on an eagle and head straight to Mordor! Especially if they were wise and powerful enough in the first place to convince an Eagle to take them there...

Anyway, that's my opinion. You don't have to accept it...

[Sardy]

Anyway, that's my opinion. You don't have to accept it...

Just making for interesting discussion. :) I personally believe that the Eagles were mandated not to get involved, as well. But barring that mandate, I believe that they might've been the best solution.

I was just discussing this with another friend who is also a writer, and it really is simply AMAZING that Tolkien could have created such a rich, detailed, expansive and complex world (a great feat in and of itself!) and also been a brilliant enough storyteller to, within that world, make the case that the only option was Frodo's journey...!!!