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obloquy
05-03-2001, 11:03 AM
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Could it be said that Aragorn has the blood, however slightly, of a Maia? Through his Numenorean line of Elros, and then through Elros' mother Elwing, and she through her father Dior, and he through his mother Luthien, and she, obviously, through her mother Melian. Or did this Maia mix disappear when Elros chose to be counted among Men? In either case, at least Elrong would still have a fraction of Maia in him.

Not that it's a particularly significant topic for discussion. Any thoughts?

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obloquy
05-03-2001, 11:18 AM
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Edit

How do you edit? Obviously, Elrong should be Elrond.

</p>

burrahobbit
05-03-2001, 11:18 AM
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Re: Bloodlines

The odds are in favor of Aragorn being 100 percet Man, though he could still have a bit of Elf and Maia. Elrond for sure had Elf and Man and his odds for having Maia are much better, I'd say it's a safe bet for him. Tolkien probably intended Aragorn to have a bit of all three.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

Drew2K1
05-03-2001, 12:15 PM
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Re: Bloodlines

Doesn't it refer to Aragorn as looking like an Elven lord somewhere?

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Drew2K1
05-03-2001, 12:19 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
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Edit

When you are at the forum list or topic list login in at the upper left of the page, then there is an edit post button next to your post.

</p>

burrahobbit
05-03-2001, 12:23 PM
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Re: Bloodlines

I'm sure it does.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

enep
05-04-2001, 04:14 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Ghastly Leprechaun
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Re: Bloodlines

All descendants of the Numeroneans/ have some fraction of elven/maia blood in them, theoretically speaking - Elros was half, his son quarter, his son an eighth so on, so on, but whether that tiny portion of Elvish/maia blood makes Aragorn part Elf is something else.

- enep</p>

Gilthalion
05-04-2001, 10:02 AM
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Re: Bloodlines

I don't know that you could say ALL Numenoreans had the Elven-Maiar heritage, but certainly all of the Royal line.

Perhaps by the time of Aragorn, there was enough intermingling that much of the surviving posterity of the Numenorean refugees had something of the Royal line. It was remarked that in Aragorn was something of a throwback (to paraphrase) and seemed to be much like his noblest ancestors. This, by comparison, was not true of the average Joe Gondor.

<center><font face=verdana size=1> http://www.barrowdowns.comBarrow-Downs</a>~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000Bare Bones</a>~http://pub41.ezboard.com/btarostineruhirTar Ost-in-Eruhir</a>~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000/gilthalion.htmlGrand Adventures</a>~http://www.barrowdowns.com/fanfichobbits.aspThe Hobbits</a>~http://www.tolkientrail.comTolkien Trail</a> </center></p>

Amandil
05-04-2001, 11:02 AM
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Re: Bloodlines

Aragorn, for all his traveling, seems to have made the most of his faded pair of genes :P

At least he washed them with All-Brightening Elvish Genes, courtesy of his laundress Arwen, before passing them on to his descendants.

I think the Maia-stain went out in the rinse after they were preshrunk to fit the mortal world.


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red
05-04-2001, 04:15 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mischief
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Re: Bloodlines

I like this Amandil character. Very entertaining... <img src=biggrin.gif ALT=":D">

-rÚd

<blockquote><font size=2>

"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."</p>

-A Short Rest, The Hobbit</p></blockquote></p>

enep
05-04-2001, 09:09 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Ghastly Leprechaun
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Re: Bloodlines

<img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol">

- enep</p>

Drew2K1
05-05-2001, 01:11 PM
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Re: Bloodlines

Very....<img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

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Amandil
05-05-2001, 05:00 PM
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Re: Bloodlines

By the time of the War of the Ring, I would think that almost all of the bloodlines of N˙menorean stock would have been diluted into almost non-existance execpt in the noblest of families. Even there, there had to be a lot of dimunition due to interbreeding with the &quot;natives&quot;. Look at the Kinstrife in the past. It happened even at the highest levels.

And then someone produces a Faramir, and bang, out come the good genes.
Even Boromir was proabably a throwback to the good ol' days.

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Earendilyon
07-16-2004, 03:02 AM
I was just browsing trough some old threads and stumbled on this one. While reading, a thought broke to the surface:

People talked here about Aragorn (and his ancestors) having Maiar 'blood' in their veins. The problem is, Maiar had no blood, for they were naturally discarnate. They could clothe themselves with a body (hroa), though, and having worn that hroa long enough, they could even become incarnate, eventually. (See also obloquy's article ╦alar and Incarnation (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=5879).)
Melian the Maia did clothe herself with a body, after meeting Thingol. What kind of body? A Maiar body? No, for such a thing doesn't exist. So, she clothed herself in an Elvish body! So, her blood was also Elvish blood. An therefore, none of here descendants had Maiar blood, but only Elvish, or mixed Elvish - human.

symestreem
07-16-2004, 06:03 AM
But as an elf, she was an ubertalented elf, with ubertalented elf genes. Perhaps it was not possible for an elf-elf pairing to actually produce genes like hers. In that sense, she was special. And she passed her specialness on to her daughter, obviously, and on from there.

Earendilyon
07-16-2004, 09:29 AM
I agree with you, that Melian was indeed special. But her 'specialness' was a specialness of her spirit, her fea, and not of her body, which was Elvish. So, I stay with my opinion, that her genes were also Elvish and hence her blood also.

Elennar Starfire
07-16-2004, 10:16 AM
But what of Luthien's magic? She was able to weave a sleep-spell, and disguise herself as a bat and Beren as a wolf. Was this ability normal for elves? Or was it from Melian?

NightKnight
07-16-2004, 11:31 AM
Many elves seem to have had magic abilities, even those who didn't have a maia as mother. Finrod disguised himself and his company as orcs, Galadriel captured light in a bottle etc. So Luthien's magic talents don't have to come from Melian.

Melian did take a physical form, but is it stated somewhere that it was an elvish body (can't remember, and I haven't got Silm here)? Remember, the Valar took physical forms as well, and maybe that's what Melian did. If so, her descendants have maia-blood in them. I did a calculation once, and found out that Arwen has 1/16 maia-blood. I posted it somewhere in the ME Mirth forum, if you're interested.

Firefoot
07-16-2004, 11:37 AM
Earendilyon, you say that in taking the form of an Elf, Melian's body became that of an Elf. However, her genes would still be those of a Maia. She was still Maia, just in Elvish form.... and now he [Dior] appeared as the fairest of all the children of the world, of threefold race: of the Edain, and of the Eldar, and of the Maiar of the Blessed Realm. Now Elros and Elrond his brother were descended from the Three Houses of the Edain, but in part also both from the Eldar and the Maiar;... It does not include Melian as an Elf. Also, I think you might be taking it a little too literally - by saying they have Maiar blood in them probably just means that they are descended from Maiar.

Edit - cross-posting with NK. It does say she took an Elvish form: she took upon herself the form of the Elder Children of Il˙vatar, and in that union she became bound by the chain and trammels of the flesh of Arda.

Dűrbelethwen
07-16-2004, 11:52 AM
I have noticed that it seems like Aragorn is second in command to Gandulf in the company of the Ring. Even above Legolas. I wondered if it had anything to do with his Maian ancestry?

Earendilyon
07-16-2004, 01:00 PM
Earendilyon, you say that in taking the form of an Elf, Melian's body became that of an Elf. However, her genes would still be those of a Maia. She was still Maia, just in Elvish form. It does not include Melian as an Elf.
(...)
Also, I think you might be taking it a little too literally - by saying they have Maiar blood in them probably just means that they are descended from Maiar.
Firefoot, my point is exactly to point out, that Melian had an Elvish body, so she did not have Maiar blood nor Maiar genes, because those are physical, whereas Maiar are spiritual, discarnate. The blood and genes Melian clothed herself in when clothing herself in a body, were Elvish.
Maybe I do take it a little too literally, on purpose, to make clear this difference between fea and hroa and between discarnate and incarnate. I do agree (of course!) with Tolkien when he says that Dior was of threefold race, but only his fea was, not his hroa: his fea descended from a Maia, from Elves, and from Men; his hroa from Elves and Men, because there is no such thing as a Maiar hroa.

NightKnight
07-16-2004, 01:56 PM
I have noticed that it seems like Aragorn is second in command to Gandulf in the company of the Ring. Even above Legolas. I wondered if it had anything to do with his Maian ancestry?

I think it was rather his ancestry from Elendil/Isildur and the kings of Arnor and Gondor than his maian ancestry. But most of all I think it was that he was an experienced ranger, and he had walked in the Wild for many years. Legolas was of a royal family, just like Gimli (more distant though) and Boromir (in a way), but I think that it was his experience that gave him the lead. Also, when Legolas and Gimli are talking to Merry and Pippin in Minas Tirith about the Paths of the Dead, one of them (Legolas, I think) says that it was the Grey Squadron's love for Aragorn that kept them going. He was definately a leader, so why not.
Faramir wondered why Aragorn led the company, and not Boromir. But he also answered it: Boromir must have acknowledged who Aragorn was, the rightful king of Gondor and Arnor.

obloquy
07-16-2004, 03:17 PM
What an irrelevant question. The loser who created this thread should be banned.

NightKnight
07-16-2004, 03:29 PM
Absolutely. ;)

Guinevere
07-16-2004, 05:03 PM
Well, I think "blood" is just used as a metaphor for what you inherit from your ancestors... So it's irrelevant whether Melian as a maia had actual blood. (While conceiving and bearing her child she certainly had a body) . And I am sure she must have passed on something to Luthien.
And of Aragorn, Legolas said: ...for is he not of the children of Luthien?Never shall that line fail, though the years may lengthen beyond count.

For Tolkien this "bloodline" seems to have been very important!
in letter #144 he wrote...the Elder Children, doomed to fade before the Followers (Men) , and to live ultimately only by the thin line of their blood that was mingled with that of Men, among whom it was the only real claim to "nobility".

In Elrond (and Elros) the lines of all the Elven houses (Noldor, Vanyar, Sindar) come together as well as the lines of all 3 houses of the Edain (Beor, Hador, Haleth) (plus the Maia strain from Melian) And in Arwen, there is in addition the line of the Teleri of Aman (through her mother Celebrian)
I'm sure this is no coincidence!
Because of Arwen's marriage to Aragorn the inheritance of all this nobility will live on in Men.