orcs and trolls

[Serevian The Ranger]

if orcs are a kind of elve how come they are not immortal too? and how long can a troll live

[Schvenn Of The Schack]

Orcs have been corrupted so they are no longer what they once were.
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It's similar to the idea that Judeo-Christian society has accepted.
Because Adam was corrupted he was no longer perfect and was therefore able to die, otherwise being a perfect man he would have lived forever, the same as Jesus; unless of course his life was ended unnaturally as was Jesus'.

Trolls can live until they see the sun.
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[Luineglin]

we dont know how long orcs can live i dont remember hearing about one dying of old age.

correct me if i am wrong really now please do this if i am wrong

[Orald]

No, you are correct Luineglin. Infact the orcs actually refer to the old times when they were the Dark Lords favorite, this could mean that they were there before the rings of power were forged, or it might just mean that the nazgul weren't always Sauron's favorite.

[Imperica]

You never know, they could be referring to Morgoth as their Dark Lord instead of Sauron.

[inglorion]

As far as I know Orcs were 'made' from Elves and Trolls from Ents, and since they are both immortal I guess the Orcs and Trolls are immortal as well.
This brings us to the Half-Orcs of Isengard; if I remember rightly they were a union between Orcs and Men, a kind of super-Orc-race, but were they mortal or immortal? Or were they able to choose just like the Half-Elves? I guess not... any thoughts?

greetings, gildor

[Elenhin]

Not all half-Elves were given a choice. Only Earendil, Elwing and their children were able to choose their fates. As for all the other half-Elves, such as the Princes of Dol Amroth (one of their foremothers was Mithrellas, an Elf from Lorien), the rule seems to have been: if you have any Mannish blood, you share the fate of Men. Therefore, I think that the Orc-Men were all mortal.

Breeding Orcs with Men was not Saruman's invention though. Melkor had started it already in the First Age (HoME X), and Sauron did it probably in the Third Age as well - LotR says that all of Saruman's "inventions" came from Mordor.

[Luineglin]

Maybe only those of the Edain and Elves were given a choice? (probally wrong on this one guys)

[obloquy]

Is it not possible that the rule was more like, If any of your forefathers chose the fate of Mortal Man, you are bound to their decision? This makes more sense to me, since a mortal could never birth an immortal, and one would have to be originally immortal to make the decision. All those who had the choice were born immortal (and had immortal mothers) and then opted for mortality. It's like a step you can only descend and never ascend. Make any sense?

I may be missing something, but I think the history fits with this concept.

[Luineglin]

that is a good theory obloquy i think it is correct also and fits well with the history.

[Elenhin]

Obloquy, that theory fits the descendants of Elwing and Earendil perfectly. I wasn't talking about them though. As only Earendil, Elwing and their descendants were able to make any kind of a choice in the first place, your theory doesn't fit any other half-Elves. (I can't think of any other half-Elves than the child of Mithrellas right now, though.)

[Thingol]

What about the new breed of trolls that Sauron made for the war of the ring, the Olog-hai, who could endore sunlight? Anyone have any insights into if they were cross bread between other races, or just enhanced in power? And if they were enhanced in power, any ideas on how that was accomplished?

[Luineglin]

that is a good question Thingol i dont know but maybe someone else could help because this also perplexes me

[obloquy]

Well the theory only needs to fit the descendants of half-elves. The first half-elf in a familial line would always get the choice because he/she had no predecessor to make it for him/her. Likewise, the son or daughter of any Elf-Man couple would always get it, even if the Man in the equation was a half-elf who had chosen mortality.

[Luineglin]

ohhhhhh now it all makes since mucho thanks obloquy.

[Dáin Ironfoot]

I dont recall wich it was but one of the books said that orcs do not die naturally, so i assume the are immortal. I think the Olog-Hai were somewhat a mix between trolls and orcs.

[Frodo Baggins]

It is said by Frodo in the book that the dark power cannot create new things, they can only twist and mock. Gandalf said that Orcs were made by the dark power to mock the Elves, and Trolls were made to mock the Ents. if that is helpful.

[NyteSky]

Interesting. I assumed the orcs were mortal because they had to breed like rabbits just to survive. Not that it makes much difference, they usually either kill each other or are killed by another race before they have time to get old. smilies/wink.gif

[Orald]

From Letter 153:

I think I agree about the 'creation by evil'. But you are more free with the word 'creation' than I am. Treebeard does not say that the Dark Lord 'created' Trolls and Orcs. He says he 'made' them in counterfeit of certain creatures pre-existing. There is, to me, a wide gulf between the two statements, so wide that Treebeard's statement could (in my world) have possibly been true. It is not true actually of the Orcs – who are fundamentally a race of 'rational incarnate' creatures, though horribly corrupted, if no more so than many Men to be met today. Treebeard is a character in my story, not me; and though he has a great memory and some earthy wisdom, he is not one of the Wise, and there is quite a lot he does not know or understand. He does not know what 'wizards' are, or whence they came (though I do, even if exercising my subcreator's right I have thought it best in this Tale to leave the question a 'mystery', not without pointers to the solution).