Was Boromir a mistake?

[The Youngest Ent]

I haven't really been able to find many opinions on this one, and this is something that I've long thought: that Boromir was never truly meant to be a member of the Fellowship, and that his joining was a mistake.

My reasons for believing this are straight from the book itself, but in particular at the council of Elrond, Boromir recounts the dream that sent him to Rivendell, stating that "a dream came to my brother in a troubled sleep; and afterwards a like dream came oft to him again, and ONCE to me." (emph. mine.)

It's in this dream that the men of Gondor are told to go to Rivendell, and the fact that Boromir was the one who went is explained the next paragraph down where it states "Therefor my brother, seeing how desperate was our need, was eager to heed the dream and seek for Imladris; but since the way was full of doubt and danger, I took the journey upon myself." So, seeing as how there are many suggestions that the Fellowship of the ring were motivated by a "force other than Mordor" and that many events were attributed to this other force, could this not suggest that it was not Boromir that was meant to go, but Faramir? Perhaps, not getting the response from Faramir that this force needed, (leaving for Rivendell) it'd been forced to settle on the lesser of the two brothers?

Later in the series it's mentioned a few other times, when Faramir discusses Boromir's death with Frodo, and states that it should have been him to go, but Boromir had forced the journey upon himself, and Denathor makes a comment of the same sort.

I'm curious as to whether or not anyone agrees with me that perhaps it was meant to be Faramir who journeyed with the ringbearer, and that Boromir was a mistake? (Almost a fatal one, as an arguement can be made that the breaking of the company was Boromir's fault, and that the chances of success were GREATLY diminished when the seperated...)

Also, how do you think things would have been different if it WAS Faramir who'd answered the call?

(If this has been brought up countless times before, I apologize...)

[Hama]

Mmm. I've often thought that about the dreams too.

If Faramir had gone with the Fellowship, I imagine that it would not have split up... they would have gone on to Minas Tirith, and been trapped there by the forces of Mordor. They would have been destroyed and the ring captured (the eye of Sauron was much on Gondor, so they probably couldn't have sneaked into Mordor). Either that or, in the face of defeat, someone would have used the ring as a last resort, with the consequences that entails.

If they were taking the ring into the presence of Denethor and Boromir in their own city, surely there would have been an attempt to take the ring and use it...

[Aiwendil]

I don't think they would have gone to Minas Tirith. Frodo knew that he had to go to Mordor and, as Sam said, was merely trying to 'screw up' the courage to go. If it hadn't been for Boromir's intervention, the fellowship would very likely have gone to Mordor together; or Frodo might have tried to sneak off alone anyway.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Knowing Boromir and Faramir's love for eachother, I think Faramir would have fallen for the ring, even if he is the more Aragorn-like/wise of the two, and Boromir would then not have touched it if it came to Minas Tirith. But, if Faramir had went, they may never have had to worry because they may not have gone through Moria, and Gandalf would still be there.

[Kuruharan]

But what if spurring Frodo to decide to go on to Mordor alone was why Boromir was in the Fellowship? Or if Faramir had been originally intended to go to Rivendell, the "forces" changed their plans in view of altered circumstances.

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

the change would have innumberable consequences
Personally I think it was better that Boromir went, as Frodo was forced to split from the company and Aragorn was then able to ride to the defence of Rohan and then Gondor-if the fellowship had not been broken, Aragorn would have followed Frodo, and there would be no Faramir in Ithilien.
Buttttt as I said at the start there's many possiblities-I like it just the way it is smilies/wink.gif

[Elrian]

It is said that Ulmo can advise by direct appearance, by dreams or through the music of the waters. It may be that Ulmo caused the dreams of Boromir and Faramir.

The ring would have had the same effect on Faramir, but he wouldn't have acted as aggressive as Boromir had. Eventually Frodo would have had to leave so tthey wouldn't be tempted. Perhaps Eowyn would have married Boromir. smilies/wink.gif

[The Youngest Ent]

I don't know if Faramir would have broken down and tried to get the ring... I've always held that the only advantage Aragorn had over Boromir in the matter was his "truer" blood... Boromir was merely a man, and the ring was too much for him... but in Faramir the blood ran almost pure, didn't it? Also, Faramir was less a man of war than Boromir, (although very capable), and Boromir couldn't even really see the reasoning behind destroying the ring, while surely Faramir would have... he let the ring go right from underneith his nose, remember, when no one would have questioned or stopped its taking.

I wonder how different Aragorn would have been, as well... with a subject of Gondor around that wasn't really interested in the throne himself, and that (later at least) was willing to immediately accept a king.

Honestly, I don't know what would have been different... I don't know why they wouldn't have gone to Moria, so maybe nothing would have changed until that part. Perhaps without Boromir to chase Frodo off, the orcs would have come across Frodo alone, and took him without the others knowing... who knows, too many options. It's fun though, to think of. smilies/smile.gif

Cause... well, Faramir is pretty damn cool...

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

Elrian just coz you want me to I'll bite smilies/tongue.gif Eowyn wouldn't have married Boromir-well I don't think she would've-errrrrr smilies/wink.gif
I don't believe that Faramir would have taken the Ring. He didn't in Ithilien, did he?????

[Jessica Jade]

I don't think Faramir would have taken the ring. He seems more pure and resilient than his brother. Remember in Henneth Annun, when he did not want to take the ring from Frodo? He didn't even want to see it. I agree that the blood of Numenor does not run so thick in Boromir; this may, in part, explain his actions at the foot of Amon Hen. We saw in Lorien how, after his thoughts and desires were laid bare by Galadriel, he began to cast strange looks at Frodo. This continues during the trip down the Anduin. Merry and Pippin are worried by the way he acts, but no one in the company, even Frodo, guesses how far the temptation of the ring has poisoned him. He has inherited the fighting strength of Gondor but not its learning; otherwise, he would certainly heed the warnings of Gandalf and Elrond.

However, it is easy to underestimate the importance of Boromir. Boromir may actually do some good by confronting Frodo. At the very least, he forces a decision. It is characteristic of The Lord of the Rings more general that bad events are turned toward a good end through some coincidence; here, Frodo's indecision is delaying the company and Boromir's action (though deplorable) forces the hobbit to act immediately. Moreover, it forces Frodo to make what his heart tells him is the right decision. He knows that he must head for the Cracks of Doom, but, as Sam correctly observes, he is simply afraid--afraid of Mordor but also afraid that if he goes back and tries to convince the others to go to Mordor, they will talk him out of his decision. This shows Frodo's deep honesty of character; he could not live with himself if he took the easy way out, even if it seemed reasonable. It is Tolkien's view, rooted in Christianity, that evil will in the end defeat itself. Thus, Boromir's treason against the Company, even though it breaks the Fellowship, has the ultimate good effect of moving the Ring further toward the Land of Shadow.

[Birdland]

If Boromir's presense was a mistake, then it was a happy one. (Sorry Boromir.)

If nothing else, when the Urak-Hai attacked the Fellowship, they would have been together in the same place, rather than being split up searching for Frodo.

What then? Aragorn and/or Faramir slain? All the Hobbits captured, including Frodo?

Now if they had survived the attack, a much bigger band would have gone into Mordor, which I'm not sure would have been a good thing. Secrecy is what got Frodo and Sam as far as Mount Doom. It would have been hard to hide the presence of so many members.
The members of the Fellowship would have died to protect Frodo and the Ring, and I'm afraid that is what would have happened if they went into Mordor.

I think the hand of Fate was involved when Boromir took it upon himself to make the Journey to Rivendell.

[Reyna Evergreen]

I agree completely, but I have one thing to say; it's called a PLOT.
If Boromir hadn't been there to mess things up, would these stories be as interesting as they are? Without him, the Fellowship may not have seperated, but think, if they would have stayed together, no one would have gone to Fangorn, and a huge chunk of the book would not even exist. Plus, Sam and Frodo would not have been alone to develop that strong relationship between themsleves, and Gollum might not have trusted that big of a group. It also takes away the effect at the end of the story, when everyone reunites and it becomes all happy (that is, if you don't count when the Fellowship ends..but all godds things must end at one point or another so...blah)
I think that Boromir was the right person to go..but then again, I may be insane and just completely missing the point! ^^

[Elven-Maiden]

Interesting thread! Boromir was definetly needed, but a mistake.... probably one that worked out for the best.

[The Half-Hobbit]

Also, if Boromir had not died protecting him and Merry, would Pippin have been moved to swear his loyalty to Denethor? And if he had not, then he probably would not have been in a position to save Faramir's life. In my opinion, Boromir was not a mistake, he was there for a purpose as clear as Sam's or Frodo's.

[Lyliac]

Eventhough Boromir's joining the fellowship might seem like a mistake, if it was an action that would have truely messed everything up, then something would have been done to prevent it. I think his action was a mistake, but one that didn't greatly affect the outcome of the journey compared to Faramir's going, because I believe that either Eru or somebody else would have done somwthing to stop it.

[The Silver-shod Muse]

Reyna Evergreen's comment made a lot of sense to me. Perhaps for this subject we ought to consider Tolkien's obligations to his personal beliefs and to the needs of his readers. The thing to remember when discussing the role of Boromir is that he reconciled himself magnificently in the end. Writing from a Christian viewpoint, Tolkien must have chosen to include that Christians, (represented as all the "good" characters and/or races in LoTR) regardless of their sins or mistakes, are always given the opportunity to come back to their Lord and Saviour and ask forgiveness, knowing that it will be given. Boromir turned out to be an admirable character, and even swore allegiance (or pretty nearly) to Aragorn. He didn't have to do that. It shows that he recognized his mistake and was willing to seek forgiveness with both his actions and his words.

[Kalessin]

I think Silver is on the right lines here in terms of a moral sensibility beneath the narrative, but Reyna is spot on - it's a story which is meant to be exciting and entertaining smilies/tongue.gif

Faramir did not go, specifically because Boromir aggressively asserted his right to represent Gondor, and was backed by Denethor. It was not a 'mistake', or continuity error ... Boromir's presence is entirely consistent and his personality, and relationship to both Faramir and Denethor, is clearly outlined in The Return of the King. The traits of father and sons are illustrated at length within the narrative, and whilst Faramir is ultimately a more noble figure (and IS able to resist the ring), it is Boromir who acts as a catalyst for dynamic narrative, and elicits a range of reactions in the reader (thus providing entertainment!).

Peace

[Nazgûl Queen]

<center><font color="red">And just say that Faramir went instead, the fellowship defeated the orcs and all went into Mordor, what else might have happened?

*They would not have had Gollum to guide them, and to take the ring nito mount doom, greatly decreasing the already smaller chances of success

*The ents would remain unroused and Saruman would not be destroyed.

*Theoden would not have been awoken, and therefore Rohan would likely have been destroyed.

*Gondor would have been destroyed because it would lack the assisstance from Rohan and the dead who Aragorn lead to Pelagir.

*Aragorn would have had less chance of being accepted as King because Boromir would resist him.

*The shire would have probably been outright attacked, maybe even destroyed.

Not very good... so its kinda good that Boromir went in Faramir's plave... "For not even the very wise can see all ends"

[KingCarlton]

This topic was really lame to begin with. It's the same as asking 'What if Sauron hadn't lost the ring would, we have had a story? '

Excellent points, Nazgul Queen !

Boromir's part in the story is as important as anyone else's, including Pippin, Deagol and even the Sackville-Baggins and it is a moot point to ponder upon.

Know Peace !

[ April 23, 2002: Message edited by: KingCarlton ]

[Thulorongil]

Though Kingcarlton has a good and obvious point, utterly open-ended thoughts and ideas like this are fun to ponder.
I actually think that even if Boromir hadn't been there to bug Frodo, the Fellowship still would have broken. It seemed as though Frodo, Gandalf, and Aragorn all saw that it was inevitable. Though, it would be weird but exceptable if they all had gone into Mordor together. If this had happened it would be very likely that we would never get Gollum as such an important character, reason being that he either continued to sneak around keeping his distance from them, the Fellowship killed him, or they were caught before he had a chance to appear. No matter which of these occured, however, this story would be short.
As I have often said before, and is said often in the books, every slight character and happening affects the outcome of what they are involved in.

And if Boromir was not a main character, Laurelin and I would only have Arwen to make fun of. (Which would not be completely terrible.) smilies/biggrin.gif

[Nephridel]

Assuming Faramir travelled with the Company, and assuming that this kept the Company together and allowed them all to escape the attack of the Uruk-Hai, I think there still would have been a problem. If the Company did not split up, with only Samwise and Frodo travelling to Mordor, the presence of the eight of them (because Gandalf would be around the area of Fangorn, since in my little hypothetical world, he still would have fallen in Moria) would be much more likely to be spotted than just two little hobbits.

Though I do think the dreams indicated that Faramir should have gone to Imladris instead of his brother, I also think that the trilogy was very well planned out and that Boromir's part in the journey was imperative.

That was as clear as mud, my apologies! smilies/redface.gif

[ April 30, 2002: Message edited by: Nephridel ]

[Lostgaeriel]

I had intended to post this a couple of weeks ago, but forgot. (I write my posts up off-line after I’ve thought them out a bit.) But Kalessin has since touched on what I have to say.

I don’t think that Boromir was a mistake. I think his existence and actions follow logically from the underpinnings of Tolkien's story. The motivations of the characters drive the plot.

Of course, Denethor preferred to send Boromir to Rivendell because he was more 'obedient' and would keep Gondor's needs above those of the Elves. Is it possible, that Denethor understood that the dream was about the Ring and hoped that Boromir might be able to bring it to him? (Of course, he never revealed this to his son. He just trusted him to do 'the right thing'. I don’t recall Boromir saying that he wants to take the Ring for his father to use – it’s for Gondor. It’s ‘his own’ idea.)

Denethor's use of the Palantír had enabled Sauron to 'capture' him. He had probably revealed the contents of the dreams to Sauron. Even while Sauron was convincing Denethor that all was hopeless - that Sauron would regain the Ring and be victorious - he was insidiously putting it into Denethor's head that aquiring the Ring was the key to victory for Gondor.

In this way, Sauron recruited yet another agent to seek for the Ring - one who would bring it near Mordor and possessed by someone too weak to wield it against him and easy enough to defeat by war. Denethor did not have the power that Elrond, Galadriel or Gandalf had and was far too easily manipulated by Sauron. (Saruman is this type of case.)

But even the best plans of Sauron have a tendency to backfire when hobbits are involved. As Jessica Jade said, Boromir's lust for the Ring
forces Frodo to make what his heart tells him is the right decision

Would this not be Tolkien’s underlying logical reasoning for the plot?

It is fun to speculate how the story would differ from the one we know. If Faramir had gone to Rivendell, I don't think he would have been tempted by the Ring. He understood its dangers and agreed with the rationale behind sending it into Mordor to be destroyed. Then what would have happened? Nazgûl Queen has already covered that very well.

[Peregrin Boffin]

I don't think Boromir being in the fellowship was a mistake. But since others have already stated my reasons better than I can, I'll just leave it at that.

Just a little stupid fact:
Faramir couldn't have gone to Rivendell because technically he didn't even exist. He was created when Frodo, Sam and Gollum got to Ithilien.

[Saxony Tarn]

well, Ent, looks like you've found quite a lot on that topic, and all well delineated. me, i'll leave it for fanfic (mine & others) but yes, i do have a strong suspicion that:

1) It was supposed to be Faramir's quest.

2) Faramir would have been quite fine up until the Ring started throwing every possible angle at him that hadn't been exhausted yet, like, "don't you want to get on your father's good side...?"

3) Boromir, meanwhile, whether or not he was savvy enough to figure out that his Da had been replaced with a pod-person, would have staged a coup d'etat and declared himself King, which would mean either a fight between him & Aragorn (read, War of Kin-Strife, part two) or, if Bor' caught the Morgul dart instead, Faramir having to convince him to give it up & step aside so the guy who healed him could take over, which would have been a masterful exchange of dialogue that i'd have loved to read (and if someone else hasn't written it in a What-If, i just may elect to...)

But Tolkein had his point to make about Boromir's Later-Earth counterparts, and once done, B. was expendable. In that respect, his "accidental" Fellowship was deliberate.

s.t.

[Child of the 7th Age]

I don't want to restate what others have so aptly expressed, but one other minor point deserves consideration. In terms of themes, I think it was important that Tolkien have at least one major character in the story who goes outside the bounds of goodness, but then makes a conscious decision to recant that choice and seek forgiveness through his actions. This has to be Borormir.

So many critics have unjustly criticized Tolkien for his one-dimensional "good" and "bad" characters, a charge that is particularly ludicrous in view of both Boromir and Gollum. Gollum was so deeply entrenched with evil that his halting attempt at repentence is easily deterred, but Boromir does succeed in showing us that he has the freedom to chose one side or the other, and that free choice still operates even after he has made a faulty decision. That is one of the critical differences between Tolkien and the ancient northern mythologies which he emulated, but only in part. There, the idea of an unyielding doom has a much stronger hold.


Faramir's reaction to the Ring would have been quite different if we judge from his later meeting with Sam and Frodo. (In that situation, Frodo was truly unprotected and Faramir showed his true nature.) So Boromir was essential to the themes of the story as well as the plot. sharon, the 7th age hobbit.

[Halfir]

The Youngest Ent:Your post has ceratinly sparked some erudite and entertaining responses.

One point that interests me is that of the quest and the quest heros - a fundamental aspect of any epic story or poem.

In the quest tradition we have the numinous object- in this instance the Ring - and those who seek - in the LOTR context - not to search for it but to destroy it. We have the Fellowship, representing Istari, Gandalf, Men - Aragorn -Boromir, Dwarves - Gimli, Elves - Legolas, and the four Hobbits.
The inter-play of characters both within races - Boromir -Aragorn, and between races Gimli - Legolas, as the quest unfolds is a powerful one.

Boromir clearly was not meant to be the recipient of the dream's message. The dream came often to Faramir but only once to him, as you note. But chance, which plays such an important role in any epic, intervenes, in the form of Boromir's insistence and Denethor's support, and it is Boromir who makes the journey.

Mistakenly? I think not. Others have posted more elgantly than I can both the literary and the philosophical reason why Boromir has to be part of the Fellowship and why his betrayal of his honor and the Fellowship's trust - albeit later redeemed in his life-sacrifice for Pippin and Merry - is integral to both the plot and the philosophy of LOTR.

Boromir's hubris- his pride - is of course his fatal flaw. He is the extremehero. As one critic has written:"He protects and leads because he considers his followers to be incapable of protecting themselves.; he trusts his own experience but is unwilling to accept anyone else's word for things outside his expereince; his physical prowess is unquestioned , but his mental strength is dubious."

And in the end, as others have said,it is Boromir's madness that provides Frodo with the impetus he needs to separate himself from the Fellowship.

Boromir's blindnes to the weakness of the heroic ethos he represents permist Frodo to go forward - aware of his own frailties. His encounter with the Nazgul has shown him what happens to those who accept a ring from Sauron; Boromir's failure shows him that process in action.

[akhtene]

Like many people here I don’t believe that Boromir going with the Company was a mistake. First, it led to what it led – the success of Frodo’s mission and armed resistance to the armies of Mordor.

Now, what could happen if Faramir went to Rivendell as he wanted to? Being much more spiritual (?) and receptive, as his dreams and the vision of Boromir’s body in the boat, he could be a much easier prey for the Ring and Sauron’s will. I just don’t believe that he was so much stronger than Isildur, Saruman or Denethor who were eventually ruined by evil will. If he didn’t crave power, then the defense of his city or just acquiring knowledge could be a good cause for desiring the Ring. Oh, I don’t mean he was so easily corruptible, I’m just speculating on the strings the Ring could pull. But being perhaps not as rash and straightforward as his elder brother he might not have lead it to open confrontation, which actually solved some of the problems.
And as Faramir was left behind and was of no great importance or danger to the Ring or Sauron, he avoided their attention (do you believe Sauron could control every living being in the world?)

I also think that Boromir’s fate, which Faramir guessed pretty well, directed the course of action he took in dealing with Frodo in Henneth Annun. First he wanted to take the hobbits to Minas Tirith, which had also been Boromir’s intention. But from my personal experience and knowledge, younger siblings seldom attempt to repeat what the elder failed. Anyway Faramir had a chance to see one way to act and he didn’t choose it. If Boromir was there he would be probably led by revenge.

Well, the thing is that I liked the thread and this crap was meant primarily to revive it… smilies/rolleyes.gif

[*Varda*]

Hm interesting topic.

Firstly, when i read the books, i didn't consider Boromir to be that important a character. After reading these posts my opinion has now changed.

Also, I believe everything happens for a reason. If Boromir went on the quest he was MEANT to go on the quest, therefore it isn't a mistake (excuse the strange logic)

As many people have already mentioned (so i won't repeat it all again) Faramir being on the Quest would have completely different (and potentially disastrous) conseqences (sp?)

I thought it was inevitable and crucial to the storyline that the fellowship was split up (which Boromir partly caused). You can hardly have a wee troop marching through Mordor to get to Mount Doom - Sauron would spot you in no time. And without Aragorn in Gondor at the time, would Gondor have been able to fight against the forces of Mordor? Also the Witch-King would still be alive as Merry wouldn't have been there to help Eowyn. Saruman wouldn't have been kicked out of Isengard because Pippin and Merry would never have met the Ents.

One detail can make a lot of difference.

Hope my insane ramblings made some sense

~~**Varda**~~

[Bêthberry]

I would like to thank *Varda* for bringing back this thread. A very good one, I think.

Other than reiterate Reyna Evergreen's point about plot and Silver-shod Muse's about forgiveness (which I think helps to suggest an interpretation of Gollem) and turning events to the good, I would like to draw a comparison. Boromir's actions, like Eowyn's, are faulty, but both show that error can be forgiven and that good can be wrought out of bad choices. The characters who make initially wrong decisions are both human rather than elf. Suggest something, I think, about the fourth age.

Bethberry

[Arwen Imladris]

If Boromir was not supposed to be there, Tolkien wouldn't have put him in.

[Melkor]

I do not think Boramir was a mistake. he was not an evil man, he just surcum to the temptation of the Ring. I think Frodo was right when he said he had to leav the company because it was causing turmoil amungst them all. who in the company could resist the timptation? Boramir had the weakest will so he was the first one to fall but you can tell he regretted it aftarwards and wasnt himself when he atempted to take the ring frome Frodo. if Frodo stayd I think eavin Aragorn would have been overcome with timptation.

[Anorien]

Boromir was a very weak character! Let's face it, he sukz. Tolkien put him there for balance, and for the fellowship to break, and Frodo go it alone. If Boromir hadn't been there to succumb to the the ring, and try to get Frodo to give it to him, Frodo would've stayed with the Fellowship. He just twisted the plot making it more complicated in interesting. But, Frodo's the best by far!!!!!!!
http://www.brightlightsfilm.com/35/images/fellowship2.jpg

[Saxony Tarn]

No, really, who's to say that his will was really that weak? if it was, then wouldn't he have tried to grab the thing at Rivendell? (rather than it having to chew on his conscience all the way to the waterfall?)

just a thought...

s.t.

(not to seem like a prude here, but statements like "so&so 'sux'" (and we know what you mean by it) don't really add anything to what you bring to the forum, and in many cases detract from it. Just before the Board Police take any notice...)

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

Boromir wasn't a mistake in my opinion. He wasn't my favorite but I still liked him. He brought 'liveliness' to the Fellowship. (No pun intended)

[akhtene]

Boromir wasn't weak!!! He was just the most HUMAN of them all. And ERRARE HUMANUM EST, which is 'to err is human' (sorry if my Latin is a bit rusty)

[orlandoandsaran]

Yes, I too don't think that Boromir was a mistake. He played a part. A major part. If he wasn't there, Frodo would still be there and most probably will be taken b the orcs.
I do not think Boromir is a mistake (sorry if that offended some of u).

[Rose Cotton]

Boromir and Faramir are very different. Boromir had his father's desire to save thier city and that's what made him fall under the ring's power. Faramir oviously wants to save his city but he was the younger brother. Less trusted, less loved. And so not as close to his father's sutley growing maddness. I don't think he would have been overpowered by the ring.

Frodo would have gone to Mordor no matter what the circomstances. And oviously Sam would have gone with him somehow. But I don't think they all would have gone with him. I don't think anyone else would have gone. Frodo would have found someway to sneek off. But there would still be the orcs.

Think of this. If Frodo did sneek off then the fellowship would eventually get worried and go looking for him. A perfect way to get to exacty the state we were in with Boromir. Faramir might have lived. No one could have died. Or another might have died.
But whoever was left would still have gone after M&P and so on.

[Aralaithiel]

Whoa! That was some heavy reading! But, I agree with Reyna, Silver-shod, Varda, and others who have posted similar thoughts.
Yes, to quote whoever posted it earlier:
...was put there for a reason. Forgive me if I did not quote it exactly as it appeared. smilies/frown.gif
I love speculation on how the story could have gone. But I also thoroughly love the story as Tolkien wrote it.
Carry on! smilies/biggrin.gif

[Anarya SilverBranch]

I do not believe that Faramir was meant to go. Boromir was obviously guided by fate or the valar or whatever to take this quest upon himself and become a part of the fellowship. Merry and Pippin probably would have been taken sooner if he had not defended them on Amon Hen or where ever it was, making the timing of the whole thing cock sided. It was destiny.

[Legolas]

Had the Fellowship not split, the Three Hunters and Gandalf the White would (most likely) not ventured to Rohan. That means Theoden would've remained under the influence of Grima. Even if he shook Grima off, would he have stood strong again? Would he have embraced Eomer again? Would his army survive without the aid of Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas? Without Gandalf to ride and bring back Erkenbrand and his army?

Rohan would've perhaps fallen under the control of Orthanc, and, together, Orthanc and Barad-dur would've sandwiched Gondor.

[ July 17, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[The Archer]

I can't say that Bromir having gone was a mistake, but it sure had some drastic consequences. And Faramir may seem as a greater man then Boromir, but he was still "a man" (a human), which means to me that he had the same weaknesses Boromir had, but under the disguise of another personality.

And Boromir spent a long time and went through several events with the "company" of the One Ring. The One Ring had plenty of time to act over Boromir's mind and will, which were weakened by the sad turn of events, and influence him in ill ways. Had Faramir been the one to join the fellowship, the One Ring would have still had time to influence him and act over his mind.

I don't know if this is a satisfactory answer, but this is what comes to my mind at this time.

[Calencoire]

My belief is that everyting happens for a reason. If Faramir had gone, he (I think) would not have been so easily tempted by the ring. Everything would have been totally different.

[cirdan]

I haven't read all the replies, so sorry if I am repeating. If Faramir had gone on the journey to Rivendell in Boromir's place (and there is no guarantee he would have made it, as Boromir is more fit for arduous travel), there is no reason to think that his fate would have been any different than Boromir's. He too could have died.
It then follows that all the events that occurred among Sam, Frodo, and Faramir could have occurred with Boromir in his brother's place. How different the story would have been! Boromir would have most certainly taken the ring then, thinking that it would save Gondor. Not being as wise or patient as Farmir, Boromir would have seen the ring as the last tool needed to destroy Mordor's armies
In response to the suggestion that a coherent fellowship would have stood an improved chance of destroying the ring, part of the success of Frodo and Sam (and Gollum) was their invisible nature and small number. The company of eight would have attracted significantly more attention. Frodo and Sam's success hinged on their invisibility from Sauron's distracted gaze. The fellowship's schism essentially saved the quest, as Sauron was distracted by the resurgence of Aragorn and Gondor.
Therefore, I don't think the story could have occurred any other way: Boromir was meant to be smilies/smile.gif

[Lathriel]

That Boromir went along might have been a mistake but I believe that it was nessecary because if he hadn't been part of the fellowship some things which had to happen wouldn't. For example, Frodo wasn't sure how he would go to Mordor but Boromir attacked him which helped Frodo make the decision to go alone. If Faramir would have gone along the quest might have gone wrong. Boromir was probably a nessecary mistake,but a sad one because he lost his life.
Boromir's death symbolizes the end of the fellowship.

[Haelothiel]

I don't believe that Boromir was a mistake. He was a turning point in the story. As many other people have stated, there is no telling what would have happened if Faramir and not Boromir had become part of the Fellowship. I believe that Boromir truly brought home to us the power of the ring: one of the Fellowship would try to take it. As someone else said, he was the most human person in the Fellowship, and he made a mistake but he redeemed himself. Boromir is one of my favorite characters because he made that mistake, but he had the strength of will to redeem himself with his life.

[Carrûn]

Boromir was not a mistake; he made mistakes but he was (at least in my opinion) still an essential part of the story. Frankly I always felt that out of all the characters he was the one with the most human connection; "book" Aragorn, while a noble and wonderful character in himself always seemed a bit too lofty and perfect.

As far as to the "what if's" I think they've pretty much all be covered already.

[NAri Brassbow]

anyone ever wonder who sent this dream?ponder htis for just a second will you,
it could have been an elaberate plan of The Enemy to weaken Gondor's strength and bring the ring closer to him. hmmmm. cheeky

[ February 23, 2003: Message edited by: NAri Brassbow ]

[Arvedui III]

Sauron didn't know where the ring was so he couldn't of sent the dream for the bringing of the ring to him. But the weakening of Gondor thing works.

[ February 23, 2003: Message edited by: Arvedui III ]

[Tirned Tinnu]

Ah, the ever-present wonder of the dream sender.
I have heard talk of it being Gandalf - for Gandalf was the keeper of the Ring of Fire.
I often used to say, "It helped him light a fire under people's asses!"
Some say it was Galadriel, working her charms. However, the voice that was heard crying out the words of the poem came from the West, where a light shone lingering amidst the dark clouds that aproached from the East...
Now what?
It's my belief that Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel, through their need, summoned the powers of the Valar to deliver the message.
I liked the BBC's version, where the voice was that of a cherub singing. Sweet.

Also, perhaps the dream came to Boromir only after Faramir resisted it. After all, he tried to shake it off, suffering with it many times before Boromir had it. I truly believe that Faramir should have gone, but then, Faramir was full of troubles of his own. Poor Faramir was saddled with the fear of his father, fear of his own destiny-
he would not have made as stout a companion to ward off the evils of Moria. He should have gone, but due to his own fears he refused. He was truly troubled.
It was so much easier to let his father make the decision, and let Boromir the Brave! go on the journey.
Perhaps the company might not have made it even as far as Caradras without Boromir's stout build to dig them out.

I'm glad Tolkien saved Faramir for later. He was such a breath of fresh air in miserable times that I like him nearly as much as Aragorn. Such a noble character! *sigh*
smilies/cool.gif

[Lady_of_Gondor]

Hi!I agree with the people that said Boromir played his own important role in the Fellowship! He is as important as everyone else..and maybe even more than others..Now when it comes to the dream, if you really believe that a "force" made that desicion for Faramir to go, then why can't we assume that the "force" wanted Boromir to go instead of Faramir too? I mean that maybe it was Boromir who was supposed to go in the end..But anyway, this is the story of the book, and I believe there is always a good reason for it so I totally disagree with Anorien. Boromir does have a reason for being there and Tolkien would have never put a character there just to cover the space, there is more to him than that..Boromir gives the human touch in this story, shows the mortal wickness and the desire for glory, the importance of it then and his desperate need to save his city in result to fall under the power of the Ring, though he is very strong and brave..So if we start thinking about different options maybe we should think that if it wasn't for Boromir in Moria or on Caradhras maybe the others would have been dead, maybe Frodo would have tried to save Gandalf and fall into shadow too, maybe the Fellowship would never seperate and the Ring would have taken then Gimli or Legolas or even Aragorn and maybe they killed Frodo and take the Ring, and millions of other options..So what I am trying to say is that the only mistake is to think of different options when the story is just the way it is and we love it this way..

[Saxony Tarn]

Ye Gods, do i spy another post on this thread opining that Aragorn seemed a little too perfect? :: raises glass high ::

i'll have to confess i had that problem in the stories w/ Faramir as well -- he came off seeming as if he the character had been watching over Tolkien's shoulder and was determined not to screw things up (which then explains why i endorse PJ making both the brothers a bit less of archetypes and a little closer to human beings)

s.t.

(dang. now i guess i'm going to have to stock up on ink and paper and speculate on how Faramir might have handled the quest in Bor's clothing... argh... a pox on this side, for all the great story ideas these posts do evoke...)

[Mrs. Greenleaf]

Well, I can see this from two perspectives..

Judging by the dreams, it's very possible that because he was not meant to join the fellowship, and for that he died.

However, if Boromir had not come the mission may not have been a sucess. I think every character had a special part to play in the journey and if Faramir had come instead of Boromir I just think the fellowship would have broken later. Eventually the ring would have corrupted someone, Boromir just proved weakest, and for that he died. I'm just thinking, is it possible that maybe Boromir was meant to die? Maybe this
was his part in the journey?

[elvesrhot]

OMG GET A LIFE...of all the subjects u pple could talk bout, y boromir? a mistake? omg talk about sad! get a life! Lord of the Rings is awesome, the best book/movie ever made and all that, but u dont live n middle earth. i kno im bein harsh, but its the truth. u r livin n the real world, instead of obsessively talking bout the purpose of boromir, try doin somthing useful w/your time.

[Saxony Tarn]

:: sigh ::

we have a cave troll. please do not feed the troll.

[Marigold Hedgeworth]

It's been pretty well established that Boromir was no mistake, so I'm just going to do some musing on Elrian's thoughts about the dreams.

It is said that Ulmo can advise by direct appearance, by dreams or through the music of the waters. It may be that Ulmo caused the dreams of Boromir and Faramir.

I really like this idea, and it seems to make sense, particularly when you couple it with Faramir's last 'meeting' of his brother, while he's keeping watch by the Anduin. It's hardly possible that Boromir's body stayed in its boat all that distance, 'specially after going down Rauros. Who better to 'protect' him and send him to his family than the Lord of the Waters?

Also, Faramir says about the boat that

It seemed to me...that it was almost filled with clear water, from which came the light.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but the whole luminescent water thing seems to proclaim Ulmo's intervention pretty loudly. Maybe he was wrapping up his involvement with the family -- 'washing his hands' of the whole affair. Pun intended smilies/biggrin.gif .

Mari

[Dunlondion]

well if things were chanded and farimir dod go than the ring may not have been destroyed however if he had gone Boromirs life could have been saved now there is a thought to ponder smilies/rolleyes.gif
plese give me your views mailto:ringman92@hotmail.comringman92@hotmail.com</A>

[Morwen Tindomerel]

If Boromir was a mistake the mistake was Elrond and Gandalf's. Surely it must have been clear to both, and probably Aragorn too, that Boromir was a potential problem yet they include him in the company - why?

IMO because their foresight tells them that he is somehow necessary to the success of the quest, which he most certainly is.

It is Boromir's attack that panicks Frodo into leaving the Company thus saving the Ring from Saruman's grasp. And it is because the Company is scattered through the woods searching for Frodo rather than caught together in camp that Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas survive the attack.

If the quest was meant for Faramir why did the dream come even once to Boromir? Faramir's repeated dreams may simply have been because he was more susceptible to such things. Nor is there any guarentee he would have resisted the Ring any better than his brother did - granted he refuses it in Ithilien but then Boromir doesn't make his attempt until after the Ring's been working on him for some months. Had Faramir been subjected to a similar trial he too may have succumbed.

Remember their father, for all his lore and 'pure Numenorean' blood Denethor falls prey to Sauron through the Palantir. Faramir might well have fallen just as his brother did, for all his wisdom, *but* would he also have had the strength to break the Ring's hold as Boromir did? To fall and turn back is an even rarer feat than resisting the Ring's initial temptation.

Had Boromir remained under the Ring's spell he could/would have tracked Frodo to Amon Henneth and taken it. Frodo was able to flee safely *precisely* because Boromir won a victory few have equalled. Could Faramir have done the same? maybe not.

[Nyneve]

I think Boromir was meant to be in the fellowship and I do nat believe he was bad or evil. I agree that if he did not join the fellowship, it would not have been broken and they would have been captured. Also, maybe I would have a different opinion if Boromir was not my favorite character in the book! He is sooooo cool. Boromir was simply meant to be in the fellowship. Sorry, I am not backed up with reasons...

[Son of Fire]

Well, we could also say, taht as it was theorized, maybe YUlmo did give the dream to Faramir in hopes that he would go to Imladris, but when he was slow to act, he gave the dream to Boromir, knowing that he would act. Also, even in Rivendell, Boromir did not want the ring destroyed, but Faramir did not want it at first sight like Boromir. Anyway,

[Mauthak the Blood-Axe]

Re: Comments made that the fellowship wouldn't have split at Amon Hen; Wasn't Aragorn already thinking about going to Gondor before the hobbits were captured? My understanding was that he was either going to do that or help Frodo to Mordor so there was still a very good chance that the Fellowship would have split.
If this has already been addressed, my bad....I didn't have time to read all the way through but I noticced several people saying that the Fellowship would not have split without Boromir etc. etc.

[Shadowfawks]

I think that maybe it was a good idea that Bormomir was part of the fellowship. Remember they would have all fallen under insanity anyway. If Boromir hadn't "motivated" Frodo to leave on his own, everyone would have gone insane. Though, I don't know why Sam was not affected by the ring. Perhaps it was his love for Frodo...hmm...Please, if anyone knows why sam was not affected by the ring please tell me.

[Shadowfawks]

Oh...and to Elvesrhot...you can get a life. I realize that the middle earth books are great and all...but haven't you ever heard of a little something call CRITICAL ANALYSIS?!!!! I bet anything that Tolkien did them all the time(coming from Oxford and all)...besides analysing a book makes you appreciate it's complexity even more and make you yourself a better writer...as for doing something better with my time...to each his own.
no offence meant towards elvesrhot.
byebye smilies/eek.gif

[Lord of Angmar]

Elvesrhot: There is no place to criticize others for analyzing their favorite piece of literature. If it weren't for people being analytical and discussing things, there would be nothing to learn. It is the essence of human nature that we must discover and analyze what we discover. If you have no useful input into the discussion, then please refrain from commenting.

The Barrowdowns has never been a place to bicker over petty issues and differences, please don't turn it into one.

As for Boromir, I think he played a crucial role in Frodo's departure from the Fellowship, and I do believe that he was "meant" (and I use this word loosely) to be with the fellowship and that he was meant to cause Frodo to make the decision of going to Mordor without the Company.

[ July 20, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]

[Lyta_Underhill]

Wasn't Aragorn already thinking about going to Gondor before the hobbits were captured? My understanding was that he was either going to do that or help Frodo to Mordor so there was still a very good chance that the Fellowship would have split.

Aragorn indeed preferred to go to Minas Tirith, but he also had said he would follow where Frodo went. If an impetus had not occurred to force Frodo into leaving surrepetitiously, Aragorn would have gone with him all the way to Mordor; what a disaster THAT could have been!

And the more I think about Aragorn's position in the Fellowship and the decisions he had to make, the less I believe that he is a 'perfect' character. I once thought he was a goody-goody, but I do not feel that way anymore. Aragorn had a hard choice to make right at this particular juncture at Parth Galen, and he could have made a very wrong decision had Frodo not left the way he did. Of course, there are other ways Frodo could have been forced to leave. He might have been pursued by Orcs and put on the Ring to escape them, then seeing his amazing vision at Amon Hen, being held tortuously between the two forces while he wore it, finally taking it off at Gandalf's urging ("Take off the Ring, fool!") and realizing all by himself that it had a terrible power and could not be brought to Minas Tirith. But it is less likely, for he would not have the shining example of Boromir to illustrate the absolute peril he would put himself and the Quest in if he were to take that road.

Also, I think Faramir would not have held out as long against the Orcs as Boromir did; Merry and Pippin would have been at their mercy much more completely. But here we do have the impetus to split the Fellowship; someone has to go after M and P before Saruman gets his hands on them. The question would be who and whether Frodo would leave of his own accord if he knew of M and P's capture...there are so many variables! It is hard to say exactly what would have happened!

Also whoever brought up the point of switching Boromir and Faramir around and putting Frodo and Sam at Boromir's mercy at Henneth Annun reflects one more of the thoughts I had had on this subject; that would be truly frightening! Would Boromir have taken the Ring outright for himself, or would he have brought it to Denethor? Denethor believed the latter, but who knows? Great discussion! Thanks! Not lame at all! I really enjoy this kind of thing, but it spins my head in circles! smilies/eek.gif

Cheers,
Lyta

[Osse]

Let's just imagine that Faramir had gone in Boromir's place;
Firstly we must remember that Faramir is not his brother's equal in battle, nor is he as strong. Boromir did no more cause the breaking of the fellowship than did Aragorn, true he tried to take the ring from frodo, but that was the will of the ring itself. True Faramir would have been less likely to fall under the rings sway, but sooner or later the fellowship would have broken anyway due to this power. Had it not been boromir who was 'freed from his peril' than what's to say Gimli or Legolas would not have fallen under the rings power?

Faramir would also have fallen at Parth Galen to the Uruk-Hai for regardless of the events beforehand the Uruks would have indeed ambushed the company, and what is to say that without the threat on the ring, frodo would not have been in their path? The ring would have been captured and given to Saruman. And if the company had split ad frodo and sam had made it to Ithilien, it would have been Boromir there as captain in Faramir's stead...he would have taken the ring there and then.

Boromir's joining of the fellowship was not a mistake, but a pre-ordaned event that was as much a part of the outcome of the war as any deed of Frodo, Gandalf or any other key character.

Faramirs character was serverly corrupted in the Two Towers film. He was dignified and wise, "the blood of Numenor ran true in his veins". It saddens me that the film has to an extent ruined his persona. Plus he should have black hair!lol


sorry this post was so long. smilies/smile.gif

[ July 21, 2003: Message edited by: Osse ]

[ July 21, 2003: Message edited by: Osse ]

[Osse]

whoever said that Ulmo may have contributed to Farmmir and Boromirs dreams is a bloody legend! I am also of this opinion and have been for quite a while smilies/biggrin.gif

[ July 21, 2003: Message edited by: Osse ]

[Olorin]

I believe that the other "force" is fate, hence it was Boromr's destiny to go and the destiny of the Fellowship to break.

[Finwe]

Well, if Boromir hadn't gone, then Aragorn wouldn't have felt that it would be dangerous to take the Ring to Minas Tirith. Aragorn had indeed met Denethor long ago (as Thorongil) and knew that if the latter laid hands on the Ring, all Mordor would break loose. Aragorn probably also knew that at some point, the Fellowship would split up, because as was said in the Council of Elrond, "even an Elf army marching on Mordor couldn't do it." The entire Fellowship would have that same effect. It HAD to split up. Boromir's "fall" proved to be the perfect motivation for Frodo (and Sam) to leave.

[Mauthak the Blood-Axe]

Re: Shadowfawks
I think Sam was affected by the ring, but because he only wore it for a short time it didn't affect him too much, and like the other hobbits it didn't have a huge effect on him as it would have to a human.....I don't have quotes to back me up but I think I remember that towards the end the ring was weighing heavily on Sam's thoughts...

[Himilsillion]

The Fellowship had to split up not only because they could not defeat Sauron by themselves but, Aragorn had to restore the Kingship of Gondor and had to lead the race of men agianst Sauron. It is also easier for two smaller people to sneak into Mordor than Seven more people of bigger size or equal size. :) Boromirr was a big factor in the breaking of the Fellowship. If Faramirr went instead of Boromirr then the fellowship would have not been broken and might have failed. If Faramirr was part of the Fellowship he would have not captured Frodo, Sam, and Gollum. Frodo would not have had to "Trick" Gollum at the Forrbiden Pool and Gollum wouldn't have betrayed Sam and Frodo to Shelob. If Gollum did not betray the two hobbits to Shelob they would have been caught at the Tower of Cirith Ungol and would have failed.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Several points:

I believe that Aragorn says he was planning to take Gimli (only?) with
himself, Frodo, and Sam. So the group sent would have still been relatively small, even with Leggy included. Faramir/Boromir would have gone to Minas Tirith with Merry and Pippin, or if captured, then the 3 or 4 hunters would have still pursued them. One can imagine a corrupted Faramir (even Gandalf and Galadriel feared the Ring's power of seduction).

The most interesting change might have been Boromir finding Frodo/Sam
in Ithilien. In that case the movie scenario could well have applied.

And to me it seems clear that it was Eru or a valar who sent the dreams. "Fate"
is a Northern European myth belief, which Tolkien obviously changed in his
legendarium to Eru Iluvatar.

Therefore it was a "mistake" (a sin of pride) for Boromir to insist on taking his brother's place journeying to Imladris, but one turned to good.

[Thinlómien]

I've also thought this in Gondor's point of view: would Gondor have won more battles and had smaller losses, if Boromir had led the army, not Faramir?

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Or (while pretty much ignoring the actual storyline) how about a
dynamic duo of Boromir and Faramir? It might not only have aggravated
Sauron but have at least slowed their daddy's despair.

[Boromir88]

See I don't find Boromir in the Fellowship a mistake, but what was actually ment to happen.

If we look at the Fellowship we see it's built on friends, Gandalf believing that friendship would be much better to get through the quest then powerful elf-lords that Elrond proposed. But in that there comes a lack in strength with the Fellowship.

You got four hobbits, an old man, and an elf, with two men and a dwarf. We see Boromir's strength step up when the Fellowship needs it most (Caradhras and Sarn Gebir). Without Boromir I don't see the Fellowship getting through Caradhras, he helps Aragorn carry the Hobbits, and on top of that he plows a passage way through the snow for everyone. Then he (with Aragorn) steers the boats through Sarn Gebir. So, if anything we see that he's ment to be in the Fellowship for his strength.

But, I think there's more to it than that, Boromir's there to cause what is MENT to happen, which is the break-up of the Fellowship. Frodo knows he has to leave, but he can't commit to it, and it's Boromir trying to take the Ring that gets Frodo nudged over the edge and realize "I need to get out of here, before this breaks the Fellowship."

[Child of the 7th Age]

Boromir88,

But, I think there's more to it than that, Boromir's there to cause what is MENT to happen, which is the break-up of the Fellowship. Frodo knows he has to leave, but he can't commit to it, and it's Boromir trying to take the Ring that gets Frodo nudged over the edge and realize "I need to get out of here, before this breaks the Fellowship."

I'm uncomfortable with what you've said here. Just how much was "preordained" in LotR? Some things yes, and other things were likely, but in many cases people had a choice.

Boromir had a choice. I truly believe that. He had the choice to say no to the temptation of the Ring. In that limited sense, he definitely failed since he did not say no. He had a second choice: to come to the aid of the hobbits and to feel real sorrow for what he had just done. In terms of that second choice, he prevailed and succeeded.

If we say something was "meant" to happen, it takes away the force of Boromir's moral decision. I think that is central to his character and indeed to the whole meaning of the story. There are points in the story when the greater powers seem to place a tiny unnnoticed finger on the scale and tilt the action in favor of the good guys. Perhaps a stream pops up out of nowhere in Mordor or Gandalf mentions that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. But such instances are rare. Moral choice rather than that which is ordained is still, in my opinion, the critical factor in the tale.

Who knows what Boromir's position within the fellowship might have been if he had passed the test of the first choice....

[Boromir88]

Child, I can certainly see what your saying, and perhaps "meant" wasn't the correct word. I should perhaps say it was bound to happen, or probable to happening...perhaps it happened for the better?

Because, I agree that everyone's got choices, our life is choices. What I "meant" was to say that from the get-go the Fellowship was faced with problems, and controversy, it just seemed like it was foreshadowed in doom and despair, and that it would be for the better that Frodo got out of there, and Boromir was the main catalyst for that. If nothing else (which I think there is) his purpose for being in the Fellowship was to be that catalyst, because the Fellowship was doomed from the start, and it would be best if Frodo got away from everyone because of the Ring. (Except Sam of course).

The Ring needed somebody to go after, and Boromir is that choice, he is the easiest choice, he's got ambitions of ruling and being a mighty General to smite down Sauron and bring Gondor to Victory. It's like once Boromir was gone, the Ring again needed somebody to prey on, and in steps Gollum.

And so, you're right and that "meant" isn't the right word, but I think "purpose" would work a lot better. There's a purpose for Boromir being in the Fellowship, and a purpose for Gollum and Frodo finding eachother again....etc.

[Himilsillion]

Boromir symbolizes the struggle of humanity. He failed to resist the temptation of the ring and gave into Sauron. He redeemed himself by protecting Merry and Pippin. I agree with Child that meant is not the right word. If Boromir did not come on the Fellowship it would have broken up anyway because it was doomed from the start and the ring would have called someone else to it, I think it would probably be Merry because of his curiosity.