Legolas and the Balrog [Archive] - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Man-of-the-Wold

09-21-2002, 01:48 AM

I don't think there is much question that Legolas, like Arwen and her brothers are among the relatively few Elves born in the Third Age, although there may be quite a lot more of that "Age" among the Nandorin East of the Misty Mountains.

He recognized the Balrog for what it was, because as a Sindar he was very well steeped in such lore, unique among the Fellowship. (Balrogs had relatively little involvement with the Edain) It is doubtful there was any other explanation for what they saw and felt, and as an Elf, Legolas's perception is not limited to mere physical clues. He probably felt something of the demonic power on another level.

Gandalf's apparently less quick realization of the Balrog is easily explained by the fact that he does not have direct contact with his Maian memory or senses. The Istari have to relearn most everything. And, what he might have gathered in Rivendell or elsewhere, he would not have bothered with, since the Balrogs were assumed gone, not having been seen throughout the Second Age. In the Books, as opposed to the Movie, the existence of a Balrog at Moria appears to have been completely unrealized by anyone, with the likely exception of Galadriel.

Interestingly, remember that Aragorn had a very strong sense about the doom awaiting them in Moria, and he may have had an implicit inkling, and only did not say the obvious when the Balrog ultimately appeared, as he would have been the only other "Fellow" who had even ever heard of a Balrog.

It seems most likely given the Unfinished Tales' account of Thranduil and his father, that Legolas of Mirkwood (as opposed to the Gnome, which I recall Tolkien not really retaining beyond the "Lost Tales!) was born some time in the Third Age.

Whether it was very early like Elrond's children, or later after the appearance of the Necromancer is pointless. The fact that he'd never actually been to Lorien before would indicate that he hadn't been around for most of the Third Age. But suffice it to say he had been alive for centuries. In the conversations of the three hunters it is indicated that though Legolas is several times older than Aragorn, he has ironically not travelled anywhere near as much.

His seeming both child-like and very old at the same time is exactly typical of a Middle-Earth Elf. Beyond the great heroes and leaders, Legolas is perhaps the only somewhat regular Elf that we ever get to know. And, Elven wisdom is not exactly the comparable to human maturity, and I think we are meant to appreciate Aragorn, Imrahil, the Grey Company and other great Men in the LotR, because of how much they impress Legolas and win his allegiance.

Of course, he is not ordinary and is an elfin prince, and should be classified as a Grey Elf, even if is mother could have been Nandorin, which is what I assume.

Again, the Nandorin of Lorien and Mirkwood seem to be a bit of an exception to the rule of Elves in decline. And their population may have seen something of a modest upswing in the Third Age, rebounding from losses in the strife of the Second Age.

Both Lorien (especially when Galadriel and Celeborn go there after the Balrog appears and Amroth's departure) and the Kingdom of Mirkwood are significant realms not mere refuges.

Also, what we see in the Hobbit would suggest that Thranduil's realm was not exclusively a place for ancient and wise elves, and that many of the elves in Mirkwood are very plausibly "Third Agers" like Legolas, so that people as old as Fangorn would have been quite remarkable for him.

Again, I think the reason he ends up in the Fellowship as opposed to a Glorfindel or Erestor is that he really does represent an Elf of Middle-Earth in those days. The Noldor and the great Sindar are fading, and have no business with the such affairs. Lindon is probably mostly Grey Elves/Falathrim, and Legolas can represent them by lineage, as well as the Elves (actually Eldar) East of the Misty Mountains, where the only really significant societies of Elves in Middle-Earth are still quite alive.

Morgoth Bauglir

09-21-2002, 07:20 AM

Gandald seemed like he knew what a balrog was to me. The istari dont have to re learn everything, because if they did they'd be only a couple thousand years old in their forms, and many elves would be older. I wouldn't want the random elf to have more wisdom than people who were sent to ME by the Valar, it wouldnt make sense.

Manwe Sulimo

09-21-2002, 05:17 PM

Not only did Gandalf know what the Balrog was, they might've been good old chums once upon a time. Balrogs (literally "Demons of Might" [key word "Demon"]) were originally Maiar (who else could've been an immortal "Demon"?).

Legolas knew because of the Gondolin thing (and the fact that any Elf worth his eyesight knew what a Balrog was ["The greatest of the Elven Banes, save the one who sits in the Dark Tower"]). Can anyone say (and I know you're gonna play the "Noldo vs. Sinda" card) reincarnation?

Elves don't "recycle" names. The Glorfindel at Gondolin and the one in Rivendell were one and the same. After Glorfindel was killed in Gondolin, he was sent back by the Valar from the Halls of Mandos. Allegedly, that's what happened to Legolas, too. (There should be a thread about that about a page back, or it might be the one already mentioned in this thread.)

Happy Hunting!

Tar Elenion

09-21-2002, 07:10 PM

--------
QUOTE:
Elves don't "recycle" names. The Glorfindel at Gondolin and the one in Rivendell were one and the same. After Glorfindel was killed in Gondolin, he was sent back by the Valar from the Halls of Mandos. Allegedly, that's what happened to Legolas, too.
----------

Elves DO 'recycle' names. There are several instances of it. Rumil was an Elf of Aman, as well as an Elf of Lorien. Two different Elves with the same name. JRRT stated that Telperimpar was a common name among the Teleri (COMMON as in many Elves had that as a name).

_That_ is not what happened to Legolas. Legolas of Gondolin was a Gnome (Noldo) who survived Gondolin and dwelt in Eressea after the fall of Melko.
Legolas of Mirkwood was a Sinda.
Two entirely different people.

doug*platypus

02-06-2003, 06:00 AM

In the Books, as opposed to the Movie, the existence of a Balrog at Moria appears to have been completely unrealized by anyone, with the likely exception of Galadriel.
That brings up a good point, MOTW (thanks for your post, by the way, I enjoyed reading it!). Didn't the dwarves know for sure that Durin's Bane was a Balrog? It killed Durin, Náin (I think), and probably quite a few other dwarves.

Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli all should have been aware of its presence in Moria, right? Or were the dwarves always unaware of what exactly was lurking in the depths? If members of the Fellowship did know that a Balrog was at large in Moria, was it not just a little too risky taking the Ringbearer through there? What about the mountain pass that Bilbo and the Dwarves used previously?

Inderjit Sanghera

02-06-2003, 06:11 AM

I think that legends on Balrog's would've been known to most Elves, sicne they were such a menace and so maybe Legolas and many elves problably would have heard vivid descriptions of them and would have sensed the Balrog's immense power.

On the Dwarves knowing it was a Balrog. I think that few of the Longbeards would have been involved in the war of the Jewels whilst the legends of the Nogrodian and Belegostain refugees may have been soon forgotten and discarded.

The Saucepan Man

02-06-2003, 12:18 PM

Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli all should have been aware of its presence in Moria, right?

Why? Even assuming that the Dwarves knew that Durin's Bane was a Balrog, only Gimli would have been aware of the possibility. But he was pretty keen to go through Moria, so that seems unlikely.

The pass that Bilbo and the Dwarves took over the Misty Mountains was, I believe, closed to them. But, had they known that a Balrog was in Moria, you would have thought that the Gap of Rohan would seem the less risky option.

HCIsland

02-06-2003, 12:47 PM

I would think the fact that Balin and crew felt they could re-establish a dwarf presence in Moria indicates that Durin's Bane was drifting into legend for the dwarfs. Surely, if Balin suspected what he would have had to confront (forget the orcs and goblins), the idea of setting up a commuity would be laughable.

Even Gandalf seemed hopeful that Balin and company may still be alive, though that hope must have been awful thin.

H.C.

Inderjit Sanghera

02-07-2003, 08:38 AM

Or maybe Balin wanted to rule a realm of his own ,regardless of the dangers? I think one of the Dwarven rings had something to do with it as well.

Attercop

02-07-2003, 12:00 PM

In "Fall of Gondolin" (Lost Tales II) he's specifically named "Legolas Greenleaf" and in the notes Christopher Tolkien says something about how this is the first mention of a party of the ring, isn't he?.... but I know details tend to shift from book to book....

Mithadan

02-07-2003, 12:18 PM

Special attention should not be attached to the use of the name "Greenleaf". That's merely a translation of the name "Legolas".

Inderjit Sanghera

02-07-2003, 01:08 PM

Legolas Greenleaf of Gondolin and Legolas of the Nine Walkers aren't the same person. legolas of Gondolin, was a Gnome, and I belive that the time in which the fall of Gondolin written, only Noldor resided in Gondolin, whereas later on, it was a mixture of Noldor and Sindar. But if the two Legolas's were the same, then surely Tolkien would've mentioned it, like he did with Glorfindel. I think it is either him re-using a character (There was also a blind Elf called Gimli, in that book) or it is simply a re-used name. For example, there is a Galdor in LoTR and one in FoG. I think that no Elf share the same name thing may have been discarded.

obloquy

02-07-2003, 03:22 PM

I think it's safe to say that nobody knew Durin's Bane was a Balrog. If anyone knew, Gandalf would have known, too. I think it's very probable that his personal attendance to the Fellowship was singular, and he had previously been content to lend confidence to a horde of orcs from the shadows. Recall how he watched the battle of Azanulbizar from Moria's gates, but never actually went onto the battle field, even when the orc army had been routed by the Dwarves. (See Appendix A part III, Durin's Folk) He may have been alerted by Sauron's presence in the Ring, or by Gandalf's presence; though the latter seems less likely since Gandalf seemed unaware of the Balrog until the 'door scene'. Then again, maybe he did sense the Balrog but kept it to himself, which would explain his words: "'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.'" In any case, the evidence indicates that Durin's Bane had been a mystery to all up until his confrontation with the Fellowship.

Dunlondion

02-08-2003, 03:14 PM

Truthfuly I think Legolas had never seen a Balrog unless he was around at the fall of Gondolin however that is impossile bacause Legolas is not that old. I do support the Theory that legolas had herd stories or songs about Balrogs and New how to Identify one.:-)

Cúdae

02-09-2003, 07:17 PM

Also take into account the fact that Legolas was the son of Thranduil, who was the King of Mirkwood and probably the head of a pretty much well-to-do family. In other words- Legolas probably had a good education and even if he had not seen a Balrog before, he knew enough fact and had heard enough legend about them to think something along the lines of, "Hey, that's a Balrog! Get me the hell out of here!" Or the Sindarin/Silvan equivalent of that.

Legolas had probably heard of the Fall of Gondolin among other tales involving Balrogs. Undoubtedly his father at any rate had and most likely would have passed that knowledge on to his son.

--Aran/Cúdae

doug*platypus

02-10-2003, 04:25 AM

Obloquy brought up convincing evidence that noone knew that there was a Balrog there. I had forgotten that line, thanks! Although in the context it seems that now Gandalf understands what had been contending with him at the door.

Now there's a funny image they should have used in the movie - Gandalf and the Balrog on either side of a door, one trying to pull it open and one trying to hold it closed! Gandalf should have let it go and it would have hit the Balrog in the head! Birds might have appeared around his head and everything!

Saucepan Man, if Gimli had known about the existence of a Balrog in Moria, Gandalf would definitely have known. And Aragorn would have been very likely to know. Legolas Greenleaf would have been less likely to know, unless the fact had been printed as dwarf-bashing in the Mirkwood Mirror or something. Legolas Greenleaf does know that the Dwarves "awakened evil" in Moria.

I'm off to the Movie Forum to complain about how Saruman ruined the surprise.

Findegil

02-10-2003, 10:17 AM

If you think Legolas did understand that the beast in front was Balrog out of his education by Thranduil, then I will ask you why didn't Aragorn identify the Balrog as what it is?

Throughout the book Aragorn shows a great knowledge about history. He was educated by high-elves that had eye witnessed the war of jewels. When there was some knowledge about Balrogs in Middle-Earth of the late third age than it was stored in Rivendell. But even after the event, when Aragorn had heard the name Balrog from Legolas and Gandalf's acceptance of it, he was not able to name the demon in his retelling to Galadriel. In Lorien it is again Legolas who named the demon a Balrog.

In my view that shows that Aragorn with all his knowledge of the past had never heard of Balrogs before.

Now let us see how you pictured Legolas: Born in the third age as the son of Thranduil a Sindar out of Doriath.

There had been no mention of any fighting Balrog around Doriath at all and the surviving elves of Belerinad did not fight in the war of wrath. So your Thranduil could only have HEARD of Balrogs - on kind of the many demons of the bad old times that had for all knowledge perished all in the last battle of the north.
Not very likely for me that he gave his son a description that was sufficient to know the demon to be a Balrog at once.

In addition, if your read the account of Thranduil in the unfinished tales, that he was during the complete third age concerned about the enemy, that was daunted but not gone for good, it seems very unlikely that an elf in such an mode will beget an child.

So my point in short: Legolas had eyewitnesses a Balrog before he meet the on in Moria. And if so when he was old enough to have been in the wars of the first age, than why not in the Fall of Gondolin? In the old FoG it was not explicit that all the elves of Gondolin were Noldoli. Later this topic shifted some times. So there is a possibility that he was both, a Sinda and an Elf of Gondolin (isn't the house of the Tree really a good name for a Sindarin house?).

And for your mention of Galdor of Gondolin and Galdor of the Havens: If I read the notes concerning Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Rivendell to be the same person, than it say also that Galdor could have been the same person. Galdor survived the FoG, as did Legolas. As a messenger of Cirdan Galdor as a surviving high-elves is likely.

At least you should see that there are some evidence for Legolas being quiet old.

Respectfully
Findegil

Inderjit Sanghera

02-10-2003, 10:42 AM

1. Galdor and Legolas wnet to Erresea-signifying that they never died. And the re-incarnated to children, into their descendanst, was I believe discarded.

2. Galdor of Gondolin is a wholly diffrent character then the one in LoTR. He is much wiser and stronger in FoG and I think the most valiant of the Gondothlim save Turgon" may have been held in some honour.

3. Elven re-naming was not rare. For example, one of Haldir's brothers is anmed Rumil and Rumil was also a Valinorean loremaster. And Arakano, the Quenya name of Argon, was also the mother-name of his dad, Fingolfin. And both of Feanor's twin sons were given the same name Ambarussa. So Legolas of LoTR could've just been re-named after Legolas of FoG.

4. Elves were credited with being able, in soem cases, to make images in their stories appear to others, like Finrod did when he first discovered men. So,the stories and images of Balrogs could've been passed down with memory.

5. If Legolas on the Nine Walkers and of Gondolin were indeed the same person, don't you think Tolkien would've mentioned it?

[ February 10, 2003: Message edited by: Inderjit Sanghera ]

Findegil

02-10-2003, 11:23 AM

1. Galdor and Legolas went to Eressea-signifying that they never died. And the re-incarnated to children, into their descendants, was I believe discarded.
That's true, but how does that form an argument here? I never said Legolas and/or Galdor were reborn.

2. Galdor of Gondolin is a wholly different character then the one in LotR. He is much wiser and stronger in FoG and I think the most valiant of the Gondothlim save Turgon" may have been held in some honour.
Again, check the Glorfindel essay! Galdor of the Havens is Galdor of Gondolin not reborn but still lingering in Middle-Earth. Or at least he could be, since JRR Tolkien was not sure if he survived FoG but said that if so he could reasonably be and since we know that Galdor survived we can assume he is. And the dishonour to Galdor is done by your characterisation of his role in LotR not by me. (Could it be that your view is here tainted by JRR Tolkiens own words concerning Galdor of the Havens in that essay, which are hardly justified?)

3. Elven re-naming was not rare. For example, one of Haldir's brothers is named Rumil and Rumil was also a Valinorean loremaster. And Arakano, the Quenya name of Argon, was also the mother-name of his dad, Fingolfin. And both of Feanor's twin sons were given the same name Ambarussa. So Legolas of LotR could've just been re-named after Legolas of FoG.
That's true, but it does only provide a possibility, which I will grant you any way.

4. Elves were credited with being able, in some cases, to make images in their stories appear to others, like Finrod did when he first discovered men. So, the stories and images of Balrogs could've been passed down with memory.
Well, yes and all the songs and stories of Beleriand were sung and told in Rivendell surly more often than in mirkwood. So that does even enhance my argument about Aragorns knowledge, does it?

5. If Legolas on the Nine Walkers and of Gondolin were indeed the same person, don't you think Tolkien would've mentioned it?
Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Rivendell were one and the same person. Did we find that knowledge in the LotR?

To be honest, I never said and don't think that Tolkien meant Legolas of Mirkwood to be the same person as Legolas of Gondolin. But that does not mean that it can't be.

And my mean point is that we do not know Legolas' age and so all the argument about he is to young to have seen a Balrog is void.

Respectfully
Findegil

obloquy

02-10-2003, 11:25 AM

2. Galdor of Gondolin is a wholly diffrent character then the one in LoTR. He is much wiser and stronger in FoG and I think the most valiant of the Gondothlim save Turgon" may have been held in some honour.

You can't support this claim. Galdor of the Tree is never reported to have died, and such a noteworthy Elf-lord's defeat could be expected to be documented. There was also a ban on the Noldor returning to Aman. They could be redeemed through their actions, though, so we don't know exactly how the ban might have affected Galdor personally. But if the ban did prevent him from returning to Aman -- or if he thought it did, at any rate -- where would you find him in Middle-earth, do you think? I think the Grey Havens is one of the likeliest places, with ancient, wise Círdan, one of the only Elves left in Middle-earth with such a noble history as Galdor. The fact that he was invited to the Council indicates that he was a lord of some importance, not just an errand runner. He says this at the Council: What power still remains lies with us, here in Imladris, or with Círdan at the Havens, or in Lórien.

There also happens to be no statement regarding Galdor's wisdom in the Fall of Gondolin. He is only said to be valiant.

As for Legolas of LotR being the same as Legolas of Gondolin, it's laughable that anyone would pretend that his ability to identify a Balrog is any kind of evidence of his age or lineage. I have never been in the presence of a rhinoceros, but I am quite certain that I could pick one out of a lineup. Think of the role Balrogs played in the stories of ages past -- Legolas calls them 'Elf-banes' -- and even in the 'religious' education of the Elves.

I suppose it's evidence that I prepared my post poorly when I edit it three times. smilies/wink.gif

[ February 10, 2003: Message edited by: obloquy ]

Ultimatejoe

02-10-2003, 12:00 PM

There was also a ban on the Noldor returning to Aman.They were all permitted to return to Tol Eressea (except maybe Galadriel) after the War of Wrath.

obloquy

02-10-2003, 12:11 PM

And yet Eressëa is not Aman. smilies/smile.gif

Aiwendil

02-10-2003, 12:12 PM

If you think Legolas did understand that the beast in front was Balrog out of his education by Thranduil, then I will ask you why didn't Aragorn identify the Balrog as what it is?

How do we know he didn't? Merely because he didn't shout about it as Legolas did?

But it is completely possible that, though Aragorn had roughly the same or better education than Legolas, he simply had not been taught precisely what a Balrog looks like. There would have been little need - they were supposed all to have been destroyed.

In my view that shows that Aragorn with all his knowledge of the past had never heard of Balrogs before.

This sounds very unlikely. Never even to have heard of Balrogs would require that he had missed huge portions of the tales of the first age.

Not very likely for me that he gave his son a description that was sufficient to know the demon to be a Balrog at once.

Not likely? Perhaps not. But certainly possible, and far more likely than any alternative.

In addition, if your read the account of Thranduil in the unfinished tales, that he was during the complete third age concerned about the enemy, that was daunted but not gone for good, it seems very unlikely that an elf in such an mode will beget an child.

But Legolas is quite explicitly the son of Thranduil: "There was also a strange Elf clad in green and brown, Legolas, a messenger from his father, Thranduil, the King of the Elves of Northern Mirkwood." (LotR II 2).

There is also no indication in UT that Legolas was alive at the time that Oropher moved east. Nor is there any suggestion anywhere that he was the same Legolas as the one from Gondolin. It seems extremely likely that we would have at least some reference - particularly considering that Tolkien clearly thought the matter of Glorfindel's reincarnation so significant, and devoted at least two essays to it. The only piece of evidence you provide to counter this is that Legolas correctly identified the Balrog. That's simply not enough.

Findegil

02-10-2003, 04:55 PM

quote:If you think Legolas did understand that the beast in front was Balrog out of his education by Thranduil, then I will ask you why didn't Aragorn identify the Balrog as what it is?

How do we know he didn't? Merely because he didn't shout about it as Legolas did?
But it is completely possible that, though Aragorn had roughly the same or better education than Legolas, he simply had not been taught precisely what a Balrog looks like. There would have been little need - they were supposed all to have been destroyed.
Because Aragorn even after he had time to think of it and was in saftey in Lórien he did not use the proper name for the Balrog even so he had heard it from Legolas and Gandalf. If this isn't eveidence for Aragorn not knowing about Balrogs, I do not know what you will call evidence.

This sounds very unlikely. Never even to have heard of Balrogs would require that he had missed huge portions of the tales of the first age.
You are right it sounds anlikely, but who else will explain his ingnorence of the Balrog that he shows?

But Legolas is quite explicitly the son of Thranduil: "There was also a strange Elf clad in green and brown, Legolas, a messenger from his father, Thranduil, the King of the Elves of Northern Mirkwood." (LotR II 2).

I never said that he wasn't the son of Thranduil. He clearly was. But when he was born is not said and so no evidence is given that he was in exictence when his father and grandfather moved form Beleriand to the Anduin their is also no evidence for the revers.

It seems extremely likely that we would have at least some reference - particularly considering that Tolkien clearly thought the matter of Glorfindel's reincarnation so significant, and devoted at least two essays to it.
I don't think so. JRR Tolkien din't read FoG when he wrote the essay concerning Glorfindel. Legolas has really a very small role in that story. So it is likely that Tolkien even missed that he had used that name in that story. And only writing this esay's he observed that Galdor of the Havens was also porbably identical to Galdor of Gondolin.

Again, I don't think that Tolkien thought of Legolas of Mirkwood being the same person as Legolas of Gondolin. But we can not really say what solution he might have found had he marked that he reused that name. (We have to think of Glorfindel and Galdor - both had not been in print, so Tolkien was free to change the names in FoG but he didn't. He did come up with a reborn Elf and a possible long lingering on the hither shore of the Lord of peoples of the Tree.) What evidence had we have of these without the essays? For Glorfindel there was a remark in the mansucripts of the council of Elrond that he will tell of his ancestry in Gondolin. But for Galdor we hav nothing.

And now thinks become even more complex: The elf from Mirkwood that brought the message of Gollums escape to the council was at first named Galdor.
So we have:
Legolas of the house of the tree in Gondolin
Galdor lord of the house of Gondolin
Galdor of Mirkwood renamed to Legols
Galdor of the Havens

Tolkien in an after view says that Galdor of Havens could have been the same as Galdor of Gondolin.

I do NOT argue that it is cannon that Legolas of FoG was the same as Legols of LotR. But I can't see enough evidence to state it otherwise as cannon. Both way's are possible even if seconde is more likely. That's all we can say nothing more. If someone wants to belive in the one way or the other we cannot ultimatley deney the possibilty.

Respectfully
Findegil

burrahobbit

02-10-2003, 06:01 PM

Legolas' dad is a Sinda. Everybody from Gondolin is not a Sinda. Legolas is not from Gondolin.

Legolas

02-10-2003, 06:07 PM

The Legolas at the Fall of Gondolin is only in The Book of Lost Tales 2.

The idea was abandoned, obviously. The Book(s) of Lost Tales contain very early Silmarillion material, most of which was revised many times over the years.

Tolkien just used the name for the elf in The Lord of the Rings.

Legolas of the Third Age was not from Gondolin. Gondolin was a Noldorin establishment. Legolas (via Thranduil) was Sindarin.

If Legolas was even alive in the First Age, he would've lived in Doriath.

[ February 10, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

Elfstone

02-10-2003, 06:39 PM

The fact that he'd never actually been to Lorien before would indicate that he hadn't been around for most of the Third Age. But suffice it to say he had been alive for centuries. In the conversations of the three hunters it is indicated that though Legolas is several times older than Aragorn, he has ironically not travelled anywhere near as much.
I agree that it's apparent that he is not very well traveled, but isn't it strange that he was able to identify crebain out of Dunland from a long distance? Doesn't seem likely that he would be shocked by the trees and Ents of Fangorn yet be familiar with crebain.

Oh well. I guess even Tolkien makes mistakes sometimes. Which may acount for the fact that Legolas was able to identify the Balrog before any of the rest of the Company.

You know, it may just be that no one who ever encountered the Balrog in Khazad-dum ever lived to describe it, leaving it's true nature a bit of a mystery. So Gimli would only know it as a great evil. Aragorn can't be expected to know everything about everything - he does spend a great deal of his life traveling, not studying ancient bad guys. Gandalf knows what they are but has never actually seen one, so even when he sets his eyes on it he may not know exactly what it is. Only an elf would have such a vivid understanding of Balrogs that he might know it from the feel and sight of it. It would certainly be the greatest evil he had ever encountered, it's shadow and flame, it's got a whip (it's got wings smilies/wink.gif ). What else would he think it was? Any halfway educated elf would know it was a Balrog, even a relatively young one from Greenwood.

Ultimatejoe

02-10-2003, 10:46 PM

Aragorn was fostered by Elrond and bears heirlooms dating back to Valinor. I'd be surprised if someone in that situation wouldn't have aquired some curiosity for earlier days.

As for Legalos; there is reams of evidence to show that Legolas isn't from Gondolin.

A) He's not of the Noldo
B) When he talks about the voices of the rocks in the foothills bellow Caradharas; he describes the Elves that they lament (The Noldor) as being a strange folk to him. Surely someone from Gondolin, carved out of rock in the middle of a field of mountains, wouldn't see the Noldor as such.
C) He has never seen the sea before. All the survivors of Gondolin made their ways to the coastlands of Beleriand and established havens. Why then would he say he hasn't seen the sea.
D) There is no evidence that it is the same Legolas as in FoG. Sp recognized the Balrog... This is hardly evidence. Glorfindel and the Balrog fought at the head of a long column of survivors on a twisting mountain pass. There is no guarantee, let alone evidence that Legolas would have had a clear view of the fracas. Considering how large Gondolin was and that there were at most 3 or 4 Balrog's there, it is unlikely he would have seen one.

Unless there is anything in the text that indicates that Legolas a survivor of the first age (and I have seen none) then we cannot as readers imply that he is. The reason we can make such an assertion about Glorfindel in the text is that he is referred to as an Elf-Lord and to past experiences that would indicate a connection to a previous storyline. For everyone's favourite travelling son this isn't so.

burrahobbit

02-10-2003, 11:29 PM

Doesn't seem likely that he would be shocked by the trees and Ents of Fangorn yet be familiar with crebain.

Oh well. I guess even Tolkien makes mistakes sometimes. Which may acount for the fact that Legolas was able to identify the Balrog before any of the rest of the Company.

Crebain are crows, there are crows all over the place.

Why wouldn't any elf know what a Balrog is? Wouldn't they tell stories about the most hard core fighters that the enemy had back in the day? Legolas's father and grandfather were around when the Balrogs were fighting the elves. Wouldn't they tell stories about that? Wouldn't Legolas recognize it from these stories?

obloquy

02-11-2003, 12:08 AM

I don't see what Legolas' little squeal has to do with anything. It doesn't mean he was the only one to identify the Balrog, it doesn't mean he was the first to identify it, and it doesn't mean he's seen them before.

Elfstone

02-11-2003, 12:58 AM

Crebain are crows, there are crows all over the place.
I'm pretty sure there aren't crebain from Dunland all over the place. He doesn't say "hey, look, there's some suspicious looking crows," he says "crebain from Dunland."
Why wouldn't any elf know what a Balrog is?
My point exactly.

doug*platypus

02-11-2003, 04:21 AM

isn't it strange that he was able to identify crebain out of Dunland from a long distance?
You're absolutely right. Movie, Schmovie.
I guess even Tolkien makes mistakes sometimes.
Open a new topic, naming two. Difficult, isn't it?

I'm with obloquy and the Rhinoceros line up. Legolas might not be the brightest of the Fellowship, but I think he would be able to guess what the demon of darkness and flame carrying the whip of fire was. And you'd think that the heir to the kingdoms of the Númenóreans, raised at Rivendell, would have a fair idea as well, even if he doesn't specifically say "Ah! I remember reading about one of these, how interesting!"
But even after the event, when Aragorn had heard the name Balrog from Legolas and Gandalf's acceptance of it, he was not able to name the demon in his retelling to Galadriel.
I can't remember exactly what he said - what was the quote? By the way, welcome aboard, Findegil.

Inderjit Sanghera

02-11-2003, 08:11 AM

" An evil of the ancient world is seemed, such as I have never seen before" said Aragorn " It was both a shadow and a flame"

He has never SEEN before.It never says he doesn't know what one is, though even if he didn't know what it was he guesses near enough.

Of course, Tolkien makes misatkes, but most often he corrects them.

And, I believe that in the BOOK it is Aragorn, not Legolas who recognises the Crebain.

Legolas

02-11-2003, 10:08 AM

It was Aragorn. Aragorn is the only person to say the word. If anyone would know, he would.

Not until they had dwindled into the distance, north and west, and the sky was again clear would Aragorn rise. Then he sprang up and went and wakened Gandalf.
`Regiments of black crows are flying over all the land between the Mountains and the Greyflood,' he said, `and they have passed over Hollin. They are not natives here; they are crebain out of Fangorn and Dunland. I do not know what they are about: possibly there is some trouble away south from which they are fleeing; but I think they are spying out the land. I have also glimpsed many hawks flying high up in the sky. I think we ought to move again this evening. Hollin is no longer wholesome for us: it is being watched.'

Keeper of Dol Guldur

02-11-2003, 04:05 PM

If Aragorn was wise and learned in the tales of old, why did he not recognize that it was a Balrog? Maybe because every last one was thought to have been destroyed in the War of Wrath? How many of them participated in the War of Wrath? Zero. That happened two ages prior. There are fouler things in the depths, probably things worse than the Watcher at Westgate, that they anticipated it could have been. After all, so many ageless demonic creatures had been brought up and nurtured by the likes of Morgoth or Sauron in the past, like the Nazgul hell-hawks, the wolf Carcharoth, and even older, more nasty creatures like Shelob still roamed the lands. Well, she didn't roam. But you see the point. There were various other things it could have been, besides a Balrog. But as an obvious thing made of dark shadow and racing with flame, that could blow Mithrandir's magic and bust down Balin's chamber, had to A. Be large, and B. A fire spirit. There weren't too many other things that fit the description they saw for themselves in Moria. Also, the Balrog was demonic looking and very much mighty, and what does Balrog (more specifically Valaraukar) mean? Exactly.

Inderjit Sanghera

02-12-2003, 09:24 AM

We don't actually know how many fought in the War of Wrath, since information on it is scarce. I would warrant that it would've been few, since Tolkien finally went form his opinion on mass Balrogs to only 7 or less.

Discord101

02-12-2003, 03:19 PM

Well too me 7 or less Balrogs is a mass of them.

...on another note, not only could have Legolas heard tales and songs about balrog but their must be some elven artists types who will have painted pictures and murals of these demonic maia spirits.

Inderjit Sanghera

02-12-2003, 03:26 PM

Well 7 is a significant change from the thousands that were originally concieved to have existed.

burrahobbit

02-12-2003, 04:21 PM

How many top generals fought in World War 2? Certainly not thousands of them, but I can tell you a bit about what they were like.

That isn't even a good analogy, WW2 was more generations ago for me than the war of wrath was for Legolas. If I could tell you about the top people in WW2, being three generations removed, wouldn't you expect Legolas to recognize a Balrog, when he is only one or two generations removed, and when Elves are much better at telling stories?

Eru

02-12-2003, 04:50 PM

Doesn't seem likely that he would be shocked by the trees and Ents of Fangorn yet be familiar with crebain.

he never was 'shocked' by the ents. well, maybe there age, because I remember him saying that he would feel young again if he were to meet an ent.

i've read this whole thread now, and i'm confused about the main point...

anyways, yeah, since elves live such a long time, knowledge is preserved far more readily than Men can preserve it. anyways, i have to go. promise to edit later. so i make sense...

Legolas

02-12-2003, 05:15 PM

No, he's not talking about Ents then. He's talking about the forest and its general vibe.

'I feel the air is stuffy,' said the Dwarf. 'This wood is lighter than Mirkwood, but it is musty and shabby.'
'It is old, very old,' said the Elf. 'So old that almost I feel young again, as I have not felt since I journeyed with you children. It is old and full of memory. I could have been happy here, if I had come in days of peace.'

[ February 12, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

Sarumian

06-01-2012, 07:39 AM

An interesting discussion. Let me offer a simple solution - Legolas had better eyesight than anyone else in the Company. A Balrog is wrapped in shadows and is not easy to be recognised at once. ;)

We can be pretty sure that Boromir and younger hobbits knew virtually nothing about Balrogs, while Frodo and Gimly potentially could have heard a little (I mean the Barlog as a kind of creature, not Durin's Bane before it was identified). Aragorn seems likely to have come across some information about Balrogs' role in the first age but could hardly expect to meet one; Olorin, as far as I concerned, had never met one in the flesh. For Legolas Balrogs were the living memory of his race. All of them were aquainted with at least one person having a first hand Balrog experience (Glorfindel), and Aragorn should have known him since he was a child. However the perception should have been quite different. Imagine, you walk through a London suburbian park and see an elk running towards you. You probably are going to be taken by surprise and feel fear. That's what Legolas feels. And now imagine meeting a dinosaur in a simillar settings. In this case you probably would struggle to come to terms with your own mind. This could be a reason why Aragorn didn't name the thing in Lorien. He probably thought: it was too difficult to believe and they would think he lied.

What is unclear for me is that dwarfs failed to recognise a Balrog in Durin's Bane. But yes, probably they forgot those events...

Nerwen

06-01-2012, 08:43 PM

Really, what was this all about?

As far as I can work out, the reasoning is that since Legolas was the first to yell when the Balrog appeared, he must have been the only one to know what a Balrog was, therefore he must have seen one before, therefore he must be a First Age Elf, therefore he must be Legolas of Gondolin!:confused:

Makes the Arkenstone/Silmaril case look positively watertight!:D

Nerwen

06-01-2012, 09:28 PM

I was going to say: what I find really funny here is the way so many of the posters talk about the scene of the Balrog's entrance as though the Company had sat around discussing the newcomer's identity at leisure, and maybe taken a poll on it.

"Gosh, I wonder what that thing can be? Maybe a really tall Orc? What do you think, Aragorn?"

"Nah, I vote for fire-troll. I'm sure they exist. Gandalf?"

"Nonsense, you fool of a Ranger. It can only be a wyvern– er, we do have those in Middle-earth, don't we?"

In fact the whole passage describes what must be a very short space of time– probably only a few seconds!

blantyr

06-02-2012, 06:58 PM

This whole discussion should be reframed as it was in the book, as a Elf-Dwarf debate. Was it a Balrog, or was it Durin's Bane?

Nelyo

09-25-2012, 01:08 AM

In Fangorn Legolas said:

'It [the forest] is old, very old,' said the Elf. 'So old that almost I feel young again, as I have not felt since I journeyed with you children. It is old and full of memory. I could have been happy here, if I had come in days of peace.'

If he was born in the 3rd Age why hadn't he felt young in the presence of Galadriel and Celeborn? In Eregion? Maybe he didn't know that Gandalf was a Maia, really, few of them knew. But he had to know that Galadriel crossed Helkaraxё, or that Celeborn saw Thingol of Doriath. For me the only explanation is that he is not that young, he was born at least in the end of the First Age.

' An evil of the ancient world is seemed, such as I have never seen before' said Aragorn ' It was both a shadow and a flame, strong and terrible.'
'It was a Balrog of Morgoth,' said Legolas; 'of all elf-banes the most deadly, save the One who sits in the Dark Tower.'

Aragorn doesn't know what it was. If he has his suspicions the never voices them. He has never seen a Balrog before. But Legolas speaks of Balrog with certainty, as if he met one. If he is at least of the same age as Elrond then he could have seen a Balrog or two)

What I say next is just my version of what could have been. It's just a reconstruction, not a very accurate one, but I've tried to be consistent.

For an elf of Doriath it was impossible to meet a Balrog. But some of the doriathrim warriors were present at Nirnaeth (Beleg, Mablung and their company). If Legolas went with them (he-he speculations), he could have seen Fingon's death hence the fear of Balrogs. He could've return to Doriath with Mablung and Beleg.
Or he could have retreated with Turgon to Gondolin. I don't think Turgon left those not of Gondolin outside if he had the chance to save them. They just couldn't leave Gondolin while it stood. We know that Gondolin had 50-50 Noldor and Sindar from The Silmarillion but we know nothing about its social structure, so we will have to believe Fall of Gondolin in that. Professor never said it was invalid after all, just an early text. If we have the House of Hammer of Wrath (ex-prisoners of Morgoth), then surely those non-Gondolin worriers could enter one of the Houses, especially if they intended to spent rest of their life (way too long) in the sity. Legolas could enter the House of Tree easily =). So when the armies of Morgoth came to Gondolin Legolas could have led the survivers out of the sity (due to his keen sight he colud find the right pass) as Legolas Greenleaf of the House of Tree. He would have seen another Balrog then...
He is his father's son so they think of simular things.
He could have desided to leave Beleriand to Noldor (to Morgoth really) and move East. He would have arrived to Erin Galen at least some years after Oropher and Thranduil. As for his lack of travelling, that little adventure would be the good reason to stay at home in the future. And all the places he visited in the past are under the water now so they don't count in Middle-Eath of the 3rd Age).
At the very end after Aragorn's death Legolas sails to the Tol Eressёa, the same isle Legolas of Gondolin sailed after the Fall of Gondolin. Who are we to say he [Legolas of Gondolin] didn't tarry in Middle-Earth an age or two?)
If we have so many versions of the same text, so many "historical notes", why don't we combine them? "The chroniclers" could make mistakes, so our task is to "find out" what really happend.

Sure Arda is big and sometimes elves re-use names. But having Glorfindel, Galdor, Legolas and Elrond son of Earendil in Rivendell at the same time is just too much ;)

Nerwen

09-25-2012, 11:16 PM

Again– exactly like the "Arkenstone-Silmaril" case. "If... if... if...if..." Sure, you could probably write a great fan-fiction where Legolas was somehow really a Noldo from Gondolin masquerading as a Sinda/Silvan Elf because... well, who knows? Actual evidence that Tolkien meant this to be the case seems to be non-existant, however.

Findegil

09-26-2012, 07:00 AM

Nelyo, you must not be dounted by hard answers like that of Nerwen, it is absolut normal that questions like this raise highly polarised diskussions. In such poeple tend too push their argumentation over the brink.

The name alone is an undinialbe evidence. And the Essay on Glorfindel and what Tolkien has to say in it about Galdor showes that this is not void.

Anyhow evidence does not mean hard fact. There are other possible and probable interpretations.

And a warning form a graet combiner of sources: Tolkiens world made a big development over time. The further apart in time of compsition the sources are you try to combine, the easier you will find some kind soul that will show that they are (in his interpretation) uncompatible at all becaus they discribe two completly seperated worlds. And most probably you will also soon hear about some kind of 'core cannon' that should be used only. To start then the discussion about the content of that 'core cannon' is like opening pandoras box.

Respectfuly
Findegil

Inziladun

09-26-2012, 07:24 AM

If he was born in the 3rd Age why hadn't he felt young in the presence of Galadriel and Celeborn? In Eregion? Maybe he didn't know that Gandalf was a Maia, really, few of them knew. But he had to know that Galadriel crossed Helkaraxё, or that Celeborn saw Thingol of Doriath. For me the only explanation is that he is not that young, he was born at least in the end of the First Age.

My interpretation is that Fangorn itself was such a different experience for Legolas he felt rather overwhelmed at that moment. He had simply never seen a forest that old before. Just because he didn't say he felt young in the presence of Celeborn or Galadriel does not mean he had to have been a peer of them; Fangorn just moved him to speak aloud.

Aragorn doesn't know what it was. If he has his suspicions the never voices them. He has never seen a Balrog before. But Legolas speaks of Balrog with certainty, as if he met one. If he is at least of the same age as Elrond then he could have seen a Balrog or two)

If Legolas was born and raised among Elves, especially of an ultimate Sindarin origin, he would have been likely to have been knowledgeable of First Age history, and I think the "whip of flame" it carried alone would have immediately brought Balrogs to his mind. What other creatures in Middle-earth had used such weapons?

Mithalwen

09-26-2012, 07:42 AM

I had also assumed it was Legolas' keener sight that led him to first identify the Balrog and I think that this is just a case of the name being recycled.

Tolkien did recycle names and unlike with the case of Glorfindel where the coincidences between Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Rivendell were too strong to be ignored there is not the same evidence.

Legolas of Gondolin if he were avaliable to be part of the fellowship would have been of a stature to compare with Glorfindel and it is clear that Legolas of Mirkwood is not "an elf Lord such as Glorfindel". His behaviour does not fit with being a veteran of Gondolin. Also Legolas of Gondolin would surely have fought at the last alliance yet Legolas of Gondor has not travelled so far. Much more consistent with being either unborn or left behind as heir while his father and grandfather fought in Mordor.

Legolas can be old enough to regard Aragorn and Gimli as children without being a first age Elf.

Nerwen

09-26-2012, 09:22 AM

Findegil– I'm actually not picking on Nelyo, or you. Or trying to stop anyone talking about anything. However, by the same token that people are allowed to put forward arguments, other people are allowed to point out the flaws and gaps in those arguments.

William Cloud Hicklin

09-26-2012, 11:01 AM

Even in the late Glorfindel essay, Tolkien didn't say that "Elves never re-used names," but that "repetition of so striking a name [as Glorfindel] would not be cradible. No other major character in the Elvish legends... has a name borne by another person of importance." Legolas and Galdor of Gondolin weren't really major characters in the legends, not by Glorfindel/Ecthelion standards.

Whereas by the start of the writing of The Lord of the Rings the old 'Fall of Gondolin' had receded into dim memory and most of its chieftains (Galdor, Legolas, Rog, Duilin) with it, Glorfindel (and Ecthelion) remained present; as late as the later Annals of Beleriand (ca. 1937) he is still mentioned- and understandably. Only two Elves ever destroyed a Balrog, even though both died in doing so. Moreover, Glorfindel and Ecthelion are still present after the writing of the Lord of the Rings, being named as Isfin/Aredhel's escort in the first draft of 'Maeglin.' (Ecthelion also appears at the end of the Long Tuor).

So Glorfindel survived, as a character in Tolkien's mind, whereas the old Gnome Legolas to all appearances disappeared except as a sound-series. (Note also that the old 12 Houses of Gondolin had disappeared by the Long Tuor (1951), with its new military organization based on the Seven Gates. We can just barely preserve Glorfindel's Golden Flower by making it a poetic name for the Gate of the Sun and its guard).

----------------------------

But I suppose if we want to get all speculative, and still be cognizant that Legolas of the Nine Walkers was a Sinda, grandson of an Elf of Doriath and not any sort of Gondolingoldo, we could call to mind that Elves had at least two and often three (or more) names, and any one of these could be the name in everyday usage. One could thus speculate that "Legolas" was neither his father-name nor his mother-name, but an epesse (cognomen); and further posit that it was bestowed once he showed in his youth evidence of very keen eyesight even by Eldarin standards, so that he was likened to the legendarily far-sighted Legolas of Gondolin and so nicknamed.

urbanhiker

09-26-2012, 11:44 AM

This is my first post on the Barrow Downs forum, and primarily I want to acknowledge Nerwen's articulate thoughts. Well said, Nerwen, particularly in regards to the nature of argument. We shouldn't hold our theories too dear but rather seek the higher goal of Truth, or at least accuracy.

The original question, why Gandalf didn't immediately recognize the Balrog when Legolas did, is framed incorrectly. When Gandalf first encountered the Balrog, at the door of the Chamber of Mazarbul, he didn't see the Balrog. It was behind the door, and had not yet burst into flame. When the door broke apart, Gandalf still couldn't clearly perceive the Balrog. All he saw was something "dark as a cloud."

Later, in the large hall before the bridge, the Balrog leaps over the fire-lit fissure and the flames leap up to greet it, kindling its mane and revealing it for what it is. A Balrog. A shadow and a flame. Legolas wails "A Balrog is come!" and at almost the same Gandalf mutters "A Balrog. Now I understand." They both recognized it. They both recognize it at almost exactly the same time, and to my reading, they discretely recognize it each for themselves. Gandalf's quiet realization bespeaks a deeper understanding of the nature of their enemy.

That's all I've got for now. Thanks for reading.

William Cloud Hicklin

09-26-2012, 01:35 PM

Good maiden post, urbanhiker! :)

Yes, your points are all well taken.

I would add in the thought that people generally in the first instance accept what they are prepared to believe- but in this case we have a combination of seven Walkers with a relatively narrow perception of time-scale, even Gimli, and two whose perspective is staggeringly wide from a mortal standpoint.

Remember, no Balrog has been seen for nearly six and a half thousand years.* In real-world terms, that puts us in the Lower Neolithic: man has developed pottery and mud-brick construction, but not writing; history has yet to start. Even the Epic of Gilgamesh isn't that old. Add to that the fact that even the Wise were under the impression that all the Balrogs had been finished off in the War of Wrath, it was an extinct life-form, and the idea of encountering one at the end of the Third Age would be as shocking, as literally incredible, as encountering a real live Neanderthal or saber-toothed cat.

But Legolas and Gandalf don't view time in quite the same way. "Like I said to Moses that time..." Leggy might or might not have been born in the Elder Days, but he still wouldn't be especially freaked out by a millennial time-span; and Olorin, we can assume, actually took part in the Great Battle. This on top of the fact that the two of them might perhaps be more sensitive to the supernatural or 'evil' emanation of the thing (although Gandalf senses a Powerful Being well before he sees and identifies it).

Whereas Aragorn and Boromir, even if well-schooled in the ancient legends (less likely in the case of Boromir), would I think be disposed to think of Balrogs as a matter of ancient history as utterly removed from their real present world as the Silmarils, and thus not disposed to include them on their immediate mental "list of horrible creatures this flame-shadow thing might be". This especially since Middle-earth generally and Moria in particular contain any number of nameless monsters; the two of them had just hacked off the tentacles of one of them not two days before.

Gimli had a ready-made classification and name for the thing, which was of course correct. Just not the whole truth.

---------------

*Except for certain Dwarves, who didn't identify it with the Valaraukar of Angamandi.

blantyr

09-26-2012, 01:37 PM

William Cloud Hicklin

09-26-2012, 01:53 PM

I'd also note that elven names are descriptive. If one pulls out the right elvish to english dictionary, they mean something. This left me scrambling a while back, naming my elven character in a Middle Earth game. This experience suggests to me at least that there have been lots more elves in the history of Middle Earth than good elven names. While JRRT might have started out thinking he'd never repeat a name, I can quite understand that he might not have stuck with it.

Especially since we know for a fact that, at least when it came to father-names, the Elves DID repeat names- Finwe named his three sons Finwe, Finwe and Finwe originally! (Later Curufinwe, Nolofinwe and Arafinwe). Curufinwe Fayanaro in turn gave his twin sons the same name, and named his fourth son (Curufin) after himself.

Inziladun

09-26-2012, 04:44 PM

There is a quote from Tolkien that touches upon the question of the Fellowship's recognition of the Balrog.

[The Balrogs] were supposed to have been all destroyed in the overthrow of Thangorodrim, [Morgoth's] fortress in the north. But here it is found (there is usually a hang-over especially of evil from one age to another) that one had escaped and taken refuge under the mountains of Hithaeglin (the Misty Mountains). It is observable that only the Elf knows what the thing is-and doubtless Gandalf.
Letters # 144

Being an unrepentant pedant, I note that Tolkien says not that Legolas knew the Balrog, but "the Elf" did so. To me that supports what I (and others) said: that it was not Legolas as an individual that gave him any special insight, but his race. Note that Tolkien also says that Gandalf did indeed know it for what it was. Perhaps his "now I understand" remark could mean that he then fully understood what Durin's Bane was, and how it had affected the Dwarves in Moria.

William Cloud Hicklin

09-26-2012, 05:18 PM

Perhaps his "now I understand" remark could mean that he then fully understood what Durin's Bane was, and how it had affected the Dwarves in Moria.

That as well as understanding what dreadful will had contested the door of Mazarbul with him: it all was clear to him now.

urbanhiker

09-26-2012, 10:27 PM

That as well as understanding what dreadful will had contested the door of Mazarbul with him: it all was clear to him now.

Yes, well said! An incompletely perceived but powerful will contests the door of Mazarbul with Gandalf, and later after sparking into fire is revealed to be a Valaraukar, a Flame of Udun, and it all makes sense: a Balrog survived the War of Wrath and is now within one jump of the One Ring, and Gandalf is going to have to lay his body down to protect the Company. Fantastic storytelling.

Morthoron

09-27-2012, 07:50 PM

Actually there is a rewrite that was discarded before the original mauscript was sent in to the publisher. Tolkien did have an alternative storyline:

"Oy! Oy!" wailed Legolas. "Balwog! A Balwog has come! Good gwacious!"

Gimli quivered and wet his hauberk. "Durin's Bane!" he shrieked while covering his face.

The burning behemoth stepped from the shadows and a coruscating flame licked and sputtered over its monstrous hide like a sun's corona. Then slowly it unfurled its great black bat wings, which spanned the entire cavern, and it unleashed a deafening roar.

"Oh my," Frodo said in awe, "so Balrogs do have wings!"

"Over the bridge!" cried Gandalf. "This foe is beyond you all, fly! I shall hold the bridge. Fly!"

The rest of the Fellowship needed no further encouragement, and they bravely rushed across the bridge, leaving Gandalf, small and alone, in the middle of the great span. The Balrog stepped forward, each pace crushing rubble beneath its ponderous footfalls. It stopped at the head of the bridge and glared down at its pitiful foe.

"You shall not pass!" Gandalf said firmly. He then uttered a memorable phrase about being the servant of the secret fire, wielder of the flame of Anor, and then another basically stating that dark fire would not avail the flame of Udûn; unfortunately, these are copyrighted statements and lawyers are more tenacious than a Balrog could ever be. "You shall not pass!" he shouted again defiantly.

The Balrog at first did not answer. It took a few tentative steps onto the bridge, then cocked its head like a puppy looking intently at the wizard. "Olórin?" it said in a confused, rumbling growl.

Gandalf shifted uneasily on the bridge. "You…you shall not pass," he repeated, but hesitantly. Gazing up at the fiery Balrog, he then murmured, "Roger?"

"Ollie!"

"Rog!"

To the amazement of the Fellowship on the far side of the bridge, and the dismay of the Orcs scratching and biting themselves in irritation on the other side, the Balrog and the wizard started laughing. "It's quite all right!" Gandalf shouted back to his comrades, tears of joy streaming down his face. "I thought the presence at the top of the stairs was familiar," he continued. "This is Rog, or Roger, if you will. He is an old choir chum of mine from back during the Ainulindalë, the Music of the Ainur in the deeps of time. I had the first seat in the baritone section, and he sat right below me in the bass section."

"Good times, good times!" Roger boomed.

"They've gone funny," Samwise whispered to Frodo.

"How long has it been, Rog? Thousands of years, certainly," Gandalf said.

"Before the sun and moon!" Roger snickered, and they both started laughing again.

"Remember that time when you burned down that sacred copse of oak trees? Yavanna was furious!"

"Or the time you made Nienna cry?"

Oh, she was always crying about one thing or another!"

As they laughed and joked and reminisced, Aragorn inched his way toward Gandalf on the bridge. "Gandalf," the dismayed ranger whispered, "shouldn't we be going?"

Gandalf frowned but then sighed. "Rog, we must be going – quest and all. Do you mind?"

"Not at all, dear Ollie," Roger replied.

They gazed into each other's eyes and then smiled warmly. They moved toward each other for one final embrace, but the Balrog's immense weight was too much for the ancient bridge. It collapsed under them and the Balrog went careening off into the darkness. Gandalf had managed to grab a crumbling handhold, but he, too, was slipping. He gazed up wide-eyed at the fellowship and muttered, in what seemed to be relief, "Thank Eru, my role in this fiasco is over!" Then, as if in afterthought, he said, "Fly, you fools!" He then let go and plummeted into the depths.

"They're not going to believe this back in Rivendell," Aragorn said in disbelief.

"Well, I can't go telling this tale in Gondor," Boromir added. "It's just terrible propaganda. The soldiers will start slitting their wrists."

"Ve åre døømed," Gimli grunted as he slumped to the ground.

Frodo reflected for a moment. "What if…we rewrote the scene?" he said slowly, rolling the thought over in his head.

"Did what?" Aragorn asked.

"What if…we just rewrote the scene?" the Hobbit repeated. "You know, Gandalf fights valiantly against the evil Balrog, and they both topple from the bridge - thus saving the Fellowship!"

"You…you think it could work?" Boromir said hopefully.

"It's better than the truth," Frodo replied.

"Bloody well right," Samwise said with a wink.