Tolkien vocabulary I (serious)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Who needs Reader's Digest to increase your vocabulary - there's lots to be learned from LotR et al! I've found a word that doesn't show up in my humble dictionary, and I can only guess its meaning from the context.
Maybe you'll find some interesting ones to share, inform or speculate on! Here's mine:
"puissant"
Faramir uses it speaking of Aragorn in RotK, Chapter "The Steward and the King", calling him "high and puissant". Any ideas?

[ July 23, 2002: Message edited by: Estelyn Telcontar ]

[Elrian]

Puissant=powerful

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Thanks, Elrian!

[Oliphaunt]

One word I've often wondered was the word "Fey".

[Thingol]

Fey: Dangerous or crazed mood.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Just wondering about Tolkien's vocabulary and style in general: His use of language is not just old-fashioned to us - some aspects are quite archaic for the time he wrote it in, definitely different from his contemporaries. Do you think it was just a personal preference, the way he thought, spoke and wrote? Or was it a deliberate choice, to give his works the feeling of ancient mythology?
I get a kick out of his explaining the "translation" of names etc. in Appendix F - there's another work of literature in the back of my mind that claimed to be a translation, but it doesn't occur to me right now.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

My personal view is that JRRT used that style of language for two reasons: He wanted to write in an authentic epic prose style and he liked that sort of language anyway. Few people of his time were better qualified to use it.
Incidentally, puissant is Norman French, what one might call the official language of knighthood in England (knighthood itself being a forcibly imported concept). The word occurs quite often in the Morte D'Arthur, in which we find a later retelling of Gawain and the Green Knight. I don't know whence 'Fey' comes, but they used to call fairies "the fey folk" and sometimes it can be used to describe someone with perceived supernatural abilities as well as a recklessly fatalistic mood. It can generally be considered to imply a certain other-worldliness, as in the name Morgan le Fay, which uses a corrupted form.

[Sharkû]

'fey' is an intriguing word worthy of being observed on the syntagmatic level:
Dread was round him, and enemies before him in the pass, and his master was in a fey mood running heedlessly to meet them. (Sam's experienced account in Cirith Ungol) ‘Greatly changed he [Aragorn] seemed to me since I saw him first in the king’s house,’ said Éowyn: ‘grimmer, older. Fey I thought him, and like one whom the Dead call.’ [...] Alas that a fey mood should fall on a man so greathearted in this hour of need! But the Lord of the City [Denethor], Beregond, has fallen before his city is taken. He is fey and dangerous.’ (Pippin) [...] Théoden could not be overtaken. Fey he seemed, or the battle-fury of his fathers ran like new tire in his veins [...] He stood a moment as a man who is pierced in the midst of a cry by an arrow through the heart; and then his face went deathly white; and a cold fury rose in him, so that all speech failed him for a while. A fey mood took him.
‘Éowyn, Éowyn!’ he cried at last: ‘Éowyn, how come you here? What madness or devilry is this? Death, death, death! Death take us all!’ (Éomer on the Pelennor)
Then Fëanor laughed as one fey, and he cried: [...] ' ! Let the ships burn!'[...] he was fey, consumed by the flame of his own wrath. They came upon Morwen by the banks of Sirion, and Mablung besought her to return to Menegroth; but she was fey Then at last Túrin knew that doom had overtaken him. [...]And he laughed as one fey

[Eol]

One word: Linugistic.

[Elrian]

linguistic means relating to language

[ January 17, 2002: Message edited by: Elrian ]

[Rachel]

I love Tolkiens language, its why I enjoy reading LOTR over and over. I also noticed that some of his sentences are very long and he uses 'and' an lot.

Lol one girl I know said to me once that she tried to read lotr but it was written in Old English smilies/rolleyes.gif! So I pulled out my copy of Beowulf and showed her what Old English really was.

I came across the coolest word in Tolkiens letters: "Verisimilitude" (sp?) - something which has the appearance of being real. He used it say something about how he tried to make the books seem more historic than fantastical.

[Lostgaeriel]

Hey Sharku!

Thanks for the great examples of Tolkien's use of the word "fey". I like that word.

'fey' is an intriguing word worthy of being observed on the syntagmatic level:


But what does "syntagmatic" mean?! I can't find it in my dictionaries at home. Is it the same as "syntactic" - of or relating to syntax or in accordance with the rules of syntax?

OK. I found "syntagmatic" in some online dictionaries. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition 2000 [http://www.bartleby.com/61/] gives the meaning as "Of or relating to the relationship between linguistic units in a construction or sequence, as between the (n) and adjacent sounds in not, ant, and ton. The identity of a linguistic unit within a language is described by a combination of its syntagmatic and its paradigmatic relations."

And from CRITICAL TERMS AND DEFINITIONS edited by Malcolm Hayward June 22, 1995 [http://gradeng.en.iup.edu/mhayward/terms.htm] -
"Relationships between words which occur by virtue of the syntactic context of the words, as compared to paradigmatic relations (other words that are like that word)."

So Sharku, could you please elaborate on how a person like me, not well-educated in literature or linguistics, goes about observing the word "fey" [or any word for that matter] on the syntagmatic level? I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be looking for.
Eager to learn. smilies/smile.gif

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I found something interesting in the Concise Oxford Dictionary. They only give the modern usage of "fey": "vague and unworldly", which is annoying. They do say, though, that it's from the Old English word "faege". I'm assuming either that JRRT uses the word as it would have been used in Old English or that the Oxford dictionary isn't what it was in his day. Probably both: every sort of drivel seems to have found its way in lately.

I don't doubt that, aside from other considerations, the use of this archaic language was another small act of rebellion against the inexorable march of progress, which since his time has seen "gobsmacked" and "downsize" accepted as real words, and "impact" somehow transformed into a verb. Poor fellow must be revolving in his sepulchre as I write.

[ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: Squatter of Amon Rudh ]

[Rinberethial Bloom]

I was watching this documentary on Tolkein (pretty good actually) and they said Poland had a heavy influence on his vocab and style of writing

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Poland? In what way?

[Rinberethial Bloom]

haha I just posted a new topic on this but anyway

It was the way the Polish recorded their history through songs and these songs and the songs/poems in the books are all written to the beat of rowing a boat

[Rinberethial Bloom]

and a few other stuff like particular words and the style of the Elvish language

[Estelyn Telcontar]

"Fey" - at first thought I would have defined it as "crazed, beside one's self". I looked it up in my English - German dictionary and was intrigued by the first definition given. "Todgeweiht", which means "doomed to die", of Scottish origin. The other definitions (high-spirited, extrasensory) I find too modern for Tolkien's context. Merriam-Webster's online dictionary confirmed that - 1. Scottish - doomed, fated to die, marked by a foreboding of death or calamity.
Now, looking at Sharku's quotes (nice list!), I find a very strong connection between "fey" and death. It seems to be a recklessness, not heeding consequences in the face of almost certain death. In some cases (Frodo, Aragorn, Theoden et al) it gives the one affected an ability to dare something that would normally be too risky, in others (Denethor, for example) it closes their minds to reason. Then, those are probably two sides of the same coin.
So, what makes the difference between being heroically or foolishly "fey"? Does it lie in the personality structure of the one affected? In the situation?

[KayQy]

Yes! Words! We loves them, my precious, yes we do...

"Doom". You get such a sense of inexorable fatality with this word when reading LotR that you don't get from, say, hearing C3PO say "we're doomed" every five minutes.

A lot of interesting things also popped up when I tried reading the Spanish translation of FotR. They translated nearly all the names, so I had to go to the dictionary a lot. It was something to realize that Withywindle=Willow-wander (more or less), and that the Shire basically means "the Neighborhood". (Makes sense if you think about it, but I never had.)

He took such pains with his words, didn't he?
smilies/smile.gif smilies/smile.gif smilies/smile.gif smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/biggrin.gif

[Sharkû]

You may be interested to hear -- if you haven't already -- that this idea led to a new site feature:Talking Tolkien (http://www.barrowdowns.com/TalkingTolkien.asp?Size=), a soon growing collection of analysis of 'Tolkien-words'.

I have never heard of any Polish influence to Tolkien. I only know his statement "I can't write Russian and find Polish rather sticky yet" (Letters).

Syntagmatic is a high-brow term with a low-brow meaning, it basically just means 'in the context of a sentence', as opposed to the also mentioned paradigmatic, where words that could have been used instead of the word in question could have been used. Paradigmatic observation basically just means giving synonyms, or definitions.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

and that the Shire basically means "the Neighborhood". (Makes sense if you think about it, but I never had.)

To an Englishman it means more than a neighbourhood. Quite a few of our counties' names end in "shire", and Tolkien has thrown elements of various counties, both North and South into the hobbits' country. Yorkshire, for example, was divided into Ridings, an old Scandinavian division into thirds, in JRRT's day (recent governments have divided the county up, like the philistines they are, to create more seats in parliament); Berkshire, where I reside, contains towns called Newbury and Bucklebury, which might sound a bit familiar and there's a place in Hampshire called Micheldever. It's almost as though JRRT was trying to gather together all of his favourite country towns and put them beyond the reach of railways, housing estates and tarmac.
So, what makes the difference between being heroically or foolishly "fey"? Does it lie in the personality structure of the one affected? In the situation?
It's a matter of how appropriate the mood is to the situation and what action it leads you to take. If the situation is hopeless and the mood causes a great act of self-sacrifice that saves everybody else then it's heroic. If it causes an unnecessary and futile sacrifice then it's criminally stupid. Then there are shades of grey in between.

"Doom". You get such a sense of inexorable fatality with this word when reading LotR that you don't get from, say, hearing C3PO say "we're doomed" every five minutes.

That's because not one of Tolkien's characters is a neurotic android who camps it up constantly.

[Mister Underhill]

Lostgariel, I think Sharkey means in essence that 'fey' is worth being examined in context, and also in comparison to other uses which are also in context -- many examples of which he has so kindly provided for our edification.

Squatter, I get frustrated with the deficiencies of my dictionary too! Maybe the problem is that you're using the "Concise" rather than the "Unabridged" Oxford Dictionary. I presume that the "Unabridged" would have the fuller definition, but I cannot say since they want you to pay money to look things up in their online version. I guess you can get away with that if you're the best (or at least have managed to foster that perception!). Among the things I desire to own one of these days is one of those gigantic Unabridged Oxford Dictionaries that requires its own table.

KayQy, the prof does get his money's worth out of "doom", doesn't he? Tolkien may be the first place I encountered that word used to mean "a decision or judgment, especially an official condemnation to a severe penalty" (Webster's), as when the Valar punish Fëanor: Therefore this doom is now made: for twelve years thou shall leave Tirion where this threat was uttered.

I've always loved the way Tolkien uses the language to evoke the overwhelming evil and otherworldly power of his villains, as in the confrontation between Éowyn and the Witch-king. Biblical "lo!" and "behold!" make his descent seem like the coming of the Angel of Death. His otherworldy steed stinks of death, and we learn that the Dark Lord nursed it with "fell" meats. "Lord of carrion" and "dwimmerlaik", Éowyn names him. I love that latter word, though I've never been able to find a suitable definition.

Estelyn, neat thread!

[Telchar]

dwimmerlaik sounds alot like another rohirric words: 'Dwimordene', which is Lorien, and is translated haunted Valley and Dwimorberg: Haunted Mountain.

Robert Foster CGME has dwimmerlaik translated to: work of necromancy, spectre.

If you want a translation of the word I recommend an Old English dictionary smilies/smile.gif

[The Mirrorball Man]

Originally posted by Mister Underhill:
"Lord of carrion" and "dwimmerlaik", Éowyn names him. I love that latter word, though I've never been able to find a suitable definition.

As far as I know, "dwimmerlaik" is not, and has never been, an English word. It must be some kind of Rohirric slang, roughly derived from the Old English words gedwimer (witchcraft) and líc (corpse.)

[Sharkû]

Settling down from my victory dance that I was able to reply six minutes before the hobbit, let me dwell on the word dwimmerlaik a bit.

Shippey's invaluable "Road to Middle-Earth" provides some information:

"Éomer says Saruman is 'dwimmer-crafty', using an old word for 'nightmare' or 'illusion' to say that wizards are 'skinturners' like Beorn, which as far as we know they are not." (117)

"Close in both place and time was the Brut, an Arthurian Chronicle-epic by one Lajamon. Tolkien certainly valued this as a repository of past tradition, borrowing from it, for instance, Éowyn's word 'dwimmerlaik'." (300)

To speculate wildly, as I will, on the origin and relations of 'laik' may be idle, but interesting nevertheless: as a simple meaning, it might come from "Late Latin laicus, from Late Greek laïkos, from Greek, of the people, from laos people" (www.m-w.com, laical. More interesting may be a connection with the German word Leiche, corpse; that connection seems indeed plausible even with the relation of English-German sounds in mind. (edit) That assumption of mine is proven correct by Mirrorball Man's kind providing of the OE/AS word smilies/smile.gif

[ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: Sharku ]

[The Mirrorball Man]

Originally posted by Sharku:
That assumption of mine is proven correct by Mirrorball Man's kind providing of the OE/AS word smilies/smile.gif

I always knew that my painful foray into the grim world of Old and Middle English might come in handy one day. smilies/wink.gif

[Mister Underhill]

Congratulations on your swift reply, Old Man! I salute you! TDS takes full responsibility for his defeats as well as his triumphs. smilies/wink.gif

To lower the intellectual standards of the thread for a moment, the components of "dwimmerlaik" also bear resemblance to two other words, both of which will be familiar to players of certain popular RPGs: "dweomer" and "lich".

"dweomer" - "...occurs only once in medieval literature - in a work from around 1205. Even then it does not occur alone but in the compound term dweomer-craeften meaning "magic art". It is thought to be related to the Old English gedwimer (or gedwomer) "sorcery".

"lich" - (from a more reputable source, the invaluable www.m-w.com) (http://www.m-w.com)) body, corpse (from Old English lIc)

[ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: Mister Underhill ]

[Estelyn Telcontar]

KayQy, I found a nice usage of "doom" in the dwarves' song in the Hobbit:
"they heard the tramp of doom" - tramp of doom sounds good, doesn't it?
Earlier in the same song I found the noun "fells" - I'm assuming it's related to the adjective "fell", which is another word worth looking at. The context that spontaneously occurs to me is "one fell swoop". Anyone have some more etymology on that one?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Maybe the problem is that you're using the "Concise" rather than the "Unabridged" Oxford Dictionary

I was considering the same possibility. Have you seen how much the full Oxford costs, though? I shall have to buy a copy from 1952 just to be able to afford it (mind you, not many good words have been coined since then, so it's probably just as good).
I now feel thoroughly humbled in the etymological stakes, so I shall pop off and fail to fill in the Times crossword.

[Eldar14]

On the issue of Polish affecting Tolkien's language, I remeber from his biography reading a part about when he was younger how he visited a Polish speaking country and loved the language. I believe it influenced some of his created languages, but I don't know which it would be. Possibly Qenya, or not.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I believe it influenced some of his created languages, but I don't know which it would be. Possibly Qenya, or not.
I may well be wrong, but I thought that Quenya was based on old Norwegian.

I once heard a recording of some Polish folk songs, sung by ordinary people who'd been singing them since childhood. JRRT would have loved that sort of thing, as it's the traditional means of passing on knowledge in a pre-literate society (they sounded quite nice too). His own feelings regarding English mythology, not to mention his earlier opinions about the Norman conquest, are widely known.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I would like to pick up this thread to comment on the use of the word "doom" by Tolkien. KayQy and Mister Underhill already mentioned it, latter as being used to signify decision or judgement. While rereading LotR in the last weeks, I realized that the word does not have the completely negative connotation we give it nowadays. We think of doom as a downfall, disaster, ruin... I find it is used more like we would use the word "fate" - the Doom of Men is often spoken of. There are many other examples; I would like to quote several from The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen (appendix A):

...maybe my doom will be not unlike hers. (Arwen to Aragorn)

A great doom awaits you, either to rise above the height of all your fathers since the days of Elendil, or to fall into darkness with all that is left of your kin. (Elrond to Aragorn)

...the doom that is laid upon us. (Elrond to Aragorn)

...her choice was made and her doom appointed. (of Arwen)


Especially the second quote shows that "doom" does not necessarily mean a terrible fate; it could end in glory!

[Rimbaud]

Among the things I desire to own one of these days is one of those gigantic Unabridged Oxford Dictionaries that requires its own table.

*smug smile*

While rereading LotR in the last weeks, I realized that the word does not have the completely negative connotation we give it nowadays.

This is absolutely correct. Indeed, the further you retrace steps through the usage, the milder the meaning becomes. However, before I blandly state that it was previously used simply as synonomous with Fate, let me temper with: Doom has had ever a darker facet than Fate, in Fate's current usage. Fate and Doom are entwined throughout litearure. The Ladies Fate, weaving their webs,knew that well. Fate used to be far grimmer a concept than simply 'the future' or 'what is ordained'.

Fate bound all of us and we are all fated to die. In the same way we are all doomed to die. Both words are resonant with a morbid poignancy; this is negative only from a certain perception of mortal death. That Doom, as is apparent in Tolkien's mythology, is not necessarily a negative event; indeed, in that mythology, the Elves are jealous of that particular Doom.

By the way, Morte D'Arthur...Fantastic. Have you read Tolkien's translation of St. Gawain and the Green Knight? It is interesting, although I don't believe it to be the best.

Two great Radical views of Fate and Doom; Octave Mirbeau and Arthur Rimbaud. If you are new to either; I suggest "The Torture Garden" for the former and "The Complete Works" for the latter. Although "The Torture Garden" is certainly not for the young, impressionable or faint-hearted.

Great thread; shall return.

[piosenniel]

Would someone please discuss the word, 'leaguer' - in reference to 'the leaguer of Morgoth' and 'the leaguer of Gondolin'.

Is it the same in definition as 'beleaguer', but more active?

[Rimbaud]

Leaguer is a noun as well as a transitive verb; just as 'beleaguer' it is derived from the Dutch leger \; akin to Old German legar ('bed'). However, as a noun it carries the additional and indeed perhaps pre-eminent meaning of "a military camp".

As a transitive verb it carries the same meaning of 'besiege'.

A tertiary meaning in noun form, derived from 'league' is simply 'member of a league'.

Part of etymology given taken from www.m-w.com. (http://www.m-w.com.)

[piosenniel]

Thanks, Stephanos!

So, when Tolkien speaks of the leaguer of Gondolin, does he mean that Gondolin is besieged or beleaguered? Or, does he mean that Gondolin is beleaguering/besieging Morgoth's territory? I'm unclear on that.

[Rimbaud]

You are correct, I did not provide clarity with regard to your question; Tolkien uses both meanings interchangeably.

For instance:
Now when Turgon learned of the breaking of the leaguer of Angband...

Here, it is clear he is using it as a noun in place of the word 'siege'. This is confirmed one sentence later:
But he believed that the ending of the Siege was the beginning of the downfall of the Noldor...

Yet, little later:
For unsummoned and unlooked for Turgon had opened the leaguer of Gondolin, and was come with an army ten thousand strong, with bright mail and long swords and spears like a forest.

Here, in my opinion, Tolkien uses the word to mean military camp' or perhaps more relevantly, 'barracks'. You have to examine the context. Hope this helps.

[ July 23, 2002: Message edited by: Stephanos ]

[Mister Underhill]

I've always thought Tolkien usually used "leaguer" to mean not so much a siege as simply a containment or partition. So when they put a "leaguer" on Angband, they're not actively laying siege to the fortress, but they are preventing anyone from getting in or out. Likewise, the leaguer of Gondolin is a sort of self-imposed containment with the obvious purpose of keeping the city's location secret. No one can leave. I wouldn't characterize Gondolin as a military encampment.

Maybe Unabridged Oxford-boy (I saw that smug smile! smilies/wink.gif) has more information -- my wimpy Webster's is no help.

[Rimbaud]

I wouldn't characterize Gondolin as a military encampment.

Well, neither would I. In fact, I am inclined to agree with you. Yet, that wouldn't be much fun, so I'll stick to my original point and say that the 'opening of the leaguer of Gondolin' was the opening of the barracks, the armed forces spilling out, rather than the 'opening' of the City itself.


I've always thought Tolkien usually used "leaguer" to mean not so much a siege as simply a containment or partition

Absolutely. So did I, until I checked upon direction of piosennial's question. In my most recent post I found "the Siege" and "the leaguer" used interchangeably. When considered alongside the fact that "the leaguer of Angband" was not a siege insofar as we would label it - medieval siege machinery and waves of assaults - but, as you say, "a containment or partition" my thought is that perhaps Tolkien is using the word and concept "siege" in a broader sense than we would apply it today.

To dig at the etymology of "siege" itself: Middle English sege, from Old French, seat, blockade, from siegier to seat, settle, from (assumed) Vulgar Latin sedicare, from Latin sedere to sit.

Which, to my eye, does not suggest the need for any 'activity' but can indeed include "containment or partition" within its meanings.

As for my Unabridged-Oxford...sadly, currently I am bereft. He dwells in my London home and I am in exile in Philadelphia.

[Mister Underhill]

Unabridged-Oxford, how do I love thee? Let me trace the etymology of the ways...

Good points, Stephanos, all well-considered. I can hardly argue with the interchangeable use of "leaguer" and "siege" by Tolkien -- I meant to distinguish his useage from how I normally think of a "siege": "Encirclement and blockade of a town or fortress by an army determined to capture it." - Webster's II New Riverside; "A military blockade of a city or fortified place to compel it to surrender." - www.m-w.com. (http://www.m-w.com.)

Since the Noldor had no hope of either capturing Angband or compelling Morgoth to surrender, there's an element of the modern conception of "siege" that's missing -- but as your etymological notes deftly show, a more passive reading of the word is certainly possible.

Your take on "leaguer" vis a vis Gondolin is certainly interesting, but since, as you point out, it's no fun if we agree, I'll nitpick a little and see if I can back up my reading with a few parallel useages: But seeing the assault upon Tilion the Valar were in doubt, fearing what the malice and cunning of Morgoth might yet contrive against them. Being unwilling to make war upon him in Middle-earth, they remembered nonetheless the ruin of Almaren; and they resolved that the like should not befall Valinor. Therefore at that time they fortified their land anew, and they raised up the mountain-walls of the Pelóri to sheer and dreadful heights, east, north, and south. Their outer sides were dark and smooth, without foothold or ledge, and they fell in great precipices with faces hard as glass, and rose up to towers with crowns of white ice. A sleepless watch was set upon them, and no pass led through them, save only at the Calacirya: but that pass the Valar did not close, because of the Eldar that were faithful, and in the city of Tirion upon the green hill Finarfin yet ruled the remnant of the Noldor in the deep cleft of the mountains. For all those of elven-race, even the Vanyar and Ingwë their lord, must breathe at times the outer air and the wind that comes over the sea from the lands of their birth; and the Valar would not sunder the Teleri wholly from their kin. But in the Calacirya they set strong towers and many sentinels, and at its issue upon the plains of Valmar a host was encamped, so that neither bird nor beast nor elf nor man, nor any creature beside that dwelt in Middle-earth, could pass that leaguer. - The Silmarillion, Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor

For Turgon took great liking for the sons of Galdor, and spoke much with them; and he wished indeed to keep them in Gondolin out of love, and not only for his law that no stranger, be he Elf or Man, who found the way to the secret kingdom and looked upon the city should ever depart again, until the King should open the leaguer, and the hidden people should come forth. - ibid., Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin

[ July 23, 2002: Message edited by: Mister Underhill ]

[piosenniel]

Would the Girdle of Melian be considered a leaguer of Doriath in any way?

[Rimbaud]

smilies/smile.gif It's almost a disappointment to give in...but reading, I found this, which I think conclusively tilts your way...

...but Turgon shut his ear to any word of the woes without, and vowed to march never at the side of any son of Feanor; and his people he forbade ever to pass the leaguer of the hills.

I can only reconcile this through a potential use of metaphor; on a literal reading this leaguer does not mean either "military camp" or "siege". I would perhaps, were the point more than mere semantics, argue that that is a metaphor but my mind leans the same way in this as yours so I shall refrain...

smilies/smile.gif

[ July 23, 2002: Message edited by: Stephanos ]

[Mister Underhill]

Now if I could only arrange for an impassable leaguer around my bank account, I'd be in good shape...

[Estelyn Telcontar]

This great discussion of the word "leaguer" would be a fitting addition to the Talking Tolkien page on the site! How about it, mods and ops?

[Kettle of fish]

This has been one of the more enjoyable threads. Keep it coming.

[Rimbaud]

In tardy reply to piosennial's additional question, which I have just observed...
Would the Girdle of Melian be considered a leaguer of Doriath in any way?
...the discussion between Underhill and I would appear to suggest an affirmative in that case.

Any further words or phrases worthy of this thread?

[Mister Underhill]

Just to follow up and refine the useage of "leaguer" a bit more, I'd say the principle is right with Melian's Girdle and Doriath, but Tolkien's useage of the word usually seems to include a physical blockade or barrier -- the Noldor forces permanently encamped near Angband; the impassable hills surrounding Gondolin; the sheer peaks of the Pelóri around Valinor.

I'd venture to opine that the shade of meaning of "leaguer" isn't quite right for Doriath's more intangible partition.

[Rimbaud]

I confess to some disagreement there. 'Beleagured' can be applied to a stressed or fractious mental state, which is intangible. I do not believe there must be any materiél barrier or partition. Although I will concede that Tolkien may well not have used the word in such a context and thusly may not have applied 'leaguer' to the protection of Doriath.

[ July 24, 2002: Message edited by: Stephanos ]

[Mister Underhill]

I agree with your point, Stephanos. I was referring more to Tolkien's (somewhat unique) use of the word in its "defensive" mode and probably should have dropped the Angband reference from my list of examples.

[greyhavener]

Words are such a playground and it's wonderful to find people who can make it across the bars!

[piosenniel]

One more vocabulary question: Would you discuss 'rede' and why Tolkien might have chosen to use it instead of a more common word such as 'counsel' or 'scheme'.

It came to my notice reading about the Fall of Gondolin in the Book of Lost Tales II, where Idril uses it quite often when talking about what she thinks needs to be done.

[doug*platypus]

Confusing language? Look no further than Bagshot Row... What's come of his weskit?

Hamfast Gamgee Help!

Of course, I could wander off this site and look the word up, but then I would be depriving you all of the chance to look at this interesting word and its etymology! Plus, most of the internet is too bright... there's nothing like a Deeply Delved barrow. Mmm... shameless self-promotion...

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

'Weskit' is a rustic form of 'waistcoat'.

'Rede' is probably used because Tolkien thought it looked better than 'counsel' in the context. I suspect that it also has something to do with the fact that 'rede' is a survival through Middle English of Old English rædan, whereas 'counsel' comes from the Latin consilium via Old French conseil. It could even be that Tolkien was just using a synonym of 'counsel' so as to avoid overuse of either term.

[Corwyn Celesil]

No one has at yet responded to a much earlier question about the meaning of the word 'fell,' which is frequently used when describing the people of Rohan. My admittedly American dictionary describes it thus: "1 Fierce; terrible; cruel. 2 Deadly: archaic except in the phrase "one fell swoop," a single effort or action that is completely effective, devastating, etc." That is pretty much what I gained from the context of the writings I have read that used that word. Many word meanings can be extrapolated from context. Any other thoughts on 'fell'?

[Sparrow]

The word 'fell' in the context of its use in the works of Tolkien is probably best described by the 'admittedly American' definitions you provided, particularly '2 Deeadly; archaic except in the phrase "one fell swoop."' Tolkien often uses the word to describe the agents of evil (e.g. a "felll blade," "fell beast," "fell host," "the fell captain of Mordor," etc.), although I believe he also uses it occassionally in a way that connotes ferocity, prowess and/or power when referring to the actions of the 'good guys' of Middle-earth.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

He's also been known to use 'fell' in the sense of a pelt or hide, as in Bombadil Goes Boating ("'I'll give your otter-fell to Barrow-wights. They'll taw you!'") and in the Lay of Leithian, where he wrote: His dreadful counsel then they took,
and their own gracious forms forsook;
in werewolf fell and batlike wing
prepared to robe them, shuddering.The first quotation raises another question: what does 'taw' mean? My Concise Oxford has "Make (hide) into leather without use of tannin, esp. by soaking in solution of alum and salt." A dire threat indeed!

[Sparrow]

"Make (hide) into leather without use of tannin, esp. by soaking in solution of alum and salt."

A horrifying notion! Those barrow-wights are truly capable of unspeakable evil.

Perhaps taw is a bit of jibberish constructed by Tolkien for the use of Iarwain alone, although my guess would be that even if this were the case, there would be a bit of clever etymology behind it.

Tolkien also uses 'fell' as a noun in "Of Beren and Luthien" in The Silmarillion, describing Luthien 'in the winged fell of Thuringwethil,' in which I would assume 'fell' means something possessing the qualities and characteristics that 'fell' - as the adjective synonymous with 'cruel' and 'ferocious' - describe.

~Sparrow

[Sharkû]

The "fell of Thuringwethil" is undoubtedly just her hide, as it fits perfectly with the definitions in the OED:
"1. The skin or hide of an animal [...] 3. A covering of hair, wool, etc., esp. when thick and matted; a fleece. Often in phr. a fell of hair, a head or shock of hair." (OED2 on CD-ROM, _fell n1_)

_Taw_, on the other hand, means just what Squatter said, but also has less specific meaning clearly associated with the processing of animal hides:
"1. trans. To make ready, prepare, or dress (some raw material) for use, or for further manipulation; e.g. to soften (hides) by beating, to heckle (hemp), etc.; [...]
† 3. fig. To treat (a person) abusively or with contumely; to vex, torment; to harass, afflict; to abuse, outrage, profane. Obs. [...]
b. To whip, flog, thrash. Obs. exc. dial." (ibid, _taw v1_)

[Sparrow]

Touche.

[parakeet]

I have kept a list of unusual vocabulary from LothR. Some of the words seem familiar, but not in the context. I read a 3 volume edition that may not match other people's copies. Does anyone know of a LothR vocabulary list or glossary? It seems that most such things are about 'elvish'. I am interested in the uncommon English words. Below is a few examples:
Volume 1
p.72 lor
90 brakes, ride
91 greensward
107 worriting
116 fell
120 spinney
128 dragonets
141 wights
157 damasked
181 pate

266 glede
306 doughty
369 bole
408 thrawn
417 wains
421 rowans

[Inziladun]

I'd hate to commit a forum fowl for being off-topic, but I'd just like to make the observation that a post from Sparrow was followed by a post from parakeet.

[The Might]

Thanks for bumping this thread, Inzil, I never really thought about the existence of "Tolkien vocabulary". I'll have to mark strange words the next time I re-read LotR.

[Morthoron]

I'm at work currently, so I'll answer what I can off the top of my head (while at the same looking terribly busy and professional):

p.72 lor -- mild expletive contraction for "lord"
90 brakes, ride -- a "brake" is a thicket, a "ride" is a stretch of open land
91 greensward -- an area of grass
107 worriting -- colloquial for "worrying"
116 fell -- An upland stretch of open country; a moor
120 spinney -- a thorny thicket
128 dragonets -- a type of fish or a miniature dragon
141 wights -- you're kidding me. You need this defined?
157 damasked -- could either refer to elaborately designed cloth or the steel of a blade
181 pate -- top of the head
266 glede -- a bird of prey, like a kite
306 doughty -- courageous or brave; usually only Dwarves are doughty (really!)
369 bole -- another name for a trunk or base of a tree
408 thrawn -- crooked or misshapen; could also mean perverse or stubborn
417 wains -- wagons
421 rowans -- a rowan is a type of tree with red berries

[Pitchwife]

Let's not forget eyot "small island", another favourite word of the Professor's, which is a curious linguistic bastard, consisting of OE eg "island" (which still survives in such place-names as Bardsey, Orkneys) with a French diminutive suffix tagged on.

Interestingly, the already much discussed fey "doomed to die" has a cognate in German feig, which originally had the same meaning as in English and is still so used in the Nibelungenlied, but has shifted to meaning "timid, cowardly, craven" in Modern German - quite the opposite of Tolkien's fey. Diachronic semantics is a funny thing.

[Morthoron]

Interestingly, the already much discussed fey "doomed to die" has a cognate in German feig, which originally had the same meaning as in English and is still so used in the Nibelungenlied, but has shifted to meaning "timid, cowardly, craven" in Modern German - quite the opposite of Tolkien's fey. Diachronic semantics is a funny thing.

Fey is also synonymous with 'netherworldly', 'supernatural' or 'of the faeries', as in Morgan le Fay (or the alternate le Fey), from the French fée or fairy.

[Mithalwen]

Parakeet, Hammond and Scull's Lord of the Rings - A readers companion includes explanation of unusual vocabulary as well as many useful references and insights. It has pagination for 3 and single volumes but superficially your pages do seem different however given that the notes follow the text and are divided into identically named chapters it should still work.

I wonder if it is just because I have been reading Tolkien so long that most of these words don't seem strange? Maybe not in all cases though some may be specifically British usage... like fell in the geographical sense. Brake is used locally to me to refer to gorse thickets.