Gandalf and Sauron

[RL Zero]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Registered User
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
If Gandalf was not constrained in power in Middle Earth would he be as powerful as Sauron. Seeing how they are both Maiar I would think yes. However I did read something I can't remember which lead me to believe that not all Maiar had the same amount of power, which would say one would be superior to the other. Both are constrained since Gandalf cannot use his full power in Middle Earth and Sauron put much of his power in the Ring, but Sauron seems to have much more power even then. Gandalf fights atleast a few of the Nine on Weathertop, defeats the Balrog at the cost of his own life, casts down Saruman the once head of the Istari, and stands down the Witch-King at the gates of Minas Tirith. I think it is safe to say that by the time he is Gandalf the White, he is the second most powerful being on Middle Earth.

My favorite quote says it: &quot;Dangerous!&quot; cried Gandalf. &quot;And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.&quot; -Gandalf

mailto:ring-lord@mailcity.comZero</a>
http://ring-lord.tripod.comRing Lord</a></p>

[burrahobbit]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Gandalf and Sauron

I've been thinking about this myself. the Valar and Maiar are the same thing, Ainur (I wonder which part of the song Gandalf did), only with different levels of power. Melkor is listed as the most powerfull, and for one to have the most power there need to be at least two levels. So it is very possible, maybe even definite, that Sauron would be more powerfull than any of the Istari if they were allowed to show their true power. Maybe the idea was to send many lesser Maiar but with power totaling greater to overthrow Sauron so none would become a new Dark Lord, or a much lesser Dark Lord that could be overthrown much easier, say, with the knife of an underling.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[RL Zero]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Gandalf and Sauron

Correct me if I'm wrong but I always was lead to believe that if two Maiar did battle in Middle Earth it would have cataclysmic repercussions. This is why the Istari were constrained in power. I mean the Valar could easily come over and take care of this.

The Valar numbered 15 who were the mightiest of all. The Maiar served the Valar. It seems the Maiar did vary in power, since it was named Eonwe was the mightiest. Gandalf was acknowledged as the wisest of the Maiar. Balrogs were once also Maiar.

mailto:ring-lord@mailcity.comZero</a>
http://ring-lord.tripod.comRing Lord</a></p>

[Balin999]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Gandalf and Sauron

burrahobbit i think if the white council had overthrown Sauron with the help of the One , one of them HAD to claim the power over the others and after saurons defeat would have become the &quot;new&quot; Dark Lord
i think gandalf says it when he talks to frodo in &quot;the shadow of the past&quot; or in the council of elrond im not sure.


</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Chief Wight
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Gandalf and Sauron

Even Galadriel, who was only Elven, was afraid to use the One Ring lest she lest be overwhelmed by the power it would impart. But the power would be just that, imparted. And since it was the power of an evil Maia, she would be turned to evil without a doubt.

But in this case, I'm sure that Gandalf could overcome her. The chief Istari could certainly overpower anyone who was 'borrowing' the power of a Maia.

mailto:barrow-wight@kitgraphics.comThe Barrow-Wight</a>
http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a></p>

[burrahobbit]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Gandalf and Sauron

Balin, I meant the combined power of the Istari without the added &quot;boost&quot; of the Ring. I count the Ring as Saurons power. Much like when the Valar grouped against Melkor, who was strongest of their kind, in the beginings of the world.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[galpsi]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Gandalf and Sauron

Might want to think about Tolkien's background as an English Catholic and as a Medievalist in this context. Conciliarism vs. ultramontanism and definitions of error. Leo IX, Gregory VII and all that. Maybe these discussions are supposed to remain within Middle Earth? Please correct if so.

</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Chief Wight
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Thoughtful discussions....

Non-Middle-Earth topics like you have suggested are fine as long as we keep them in their own thread. If such things are discussed enough, I'd be happy to create a forum for them.

mailto:barrow-wight@kitgraphics.comThe Barrow-Wight</a>
http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a></p>

[Balin999]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Thoughtful discussions....

i see burrahobbit
and Turin, i remember galadriel telling frodo (when he wants to give her the ring) that she would be both beautiful and terrible and no one could stand to see her or sth like that

</p>

[Taimar]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Gandalf and Sauron

Olorin (Gandalf) states in UT that he is afraid of Sauron. Perhaps this indicates that Sauron would be more powerful in a direct confrontation.

</p>

[RL Zero]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Gandalf and Sauron

Maybe he fears what will happen.

mailto:ring-lord@mailcity.comZero</a>
http://ring-lord.tripod.comRing Lord</a></p>

[Oliphaunt]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Gandalf and Sauron

In my opinion, I don't think Gandalf could have beaten Sauron. Sauron was the number 2 to Morgoth, the most powerful of the Valar and the Maia. Morgoth had thousands of servants, orcs, dragons, fell beasts and balrogs (also Maia). We don't know what Gandalf's status was among the rest of the Maia.&lt;p&gt;
The next thing we have to consider, is that even if Gandalf waltzed up to Mordor, with everyone, all the wizards, all the elves from Rivendell, Lorien, all the Ents in Fangorn, Gondor, Rohan and any ally they could muster, I still think that the hosts of Mordor could defeat them if the Ring of Power were not destroyed.&lt;p&gt;
And even if Gandalf could do that, I don't think he would. The job of the Istari was too help, not do everthing. It was supposed to be there struggle. I also agree with the idea of the effect it would have on ME.

</p>

[galpsi]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Gandalf and Sauron

I think that your last point, Oliphaunt, is the point. But as to whether he could have sucessfully challenged Sauron, do we think that the Dark Lord's retreat from Dol Guldur was purely strategic?

</p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000201>galpsi</A> at: 7/11/00 6:29:36 pm

[Taimar]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Gandalf and Sauron

It is clearly stated that Sauron`s retreat from Dol Guldur was a `feint`.

Look into the http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/library/classiccourt/77/Mirror of Desire.</a> </p>

[galpsi]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Gandalf and Sauron

It is clearly stated (at the Council of Elrond) that the retreat in 2941(t.a.) before the forces of the White Council was a feint. I know no such clear assessment of Sauron's retreat to the East in 2063(t.a.).

</p>

[Taimar]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Gandalf and Sauron

Sorry, I misunderstood.

Look into the http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/library/classiccourt/77/Mirror of Desire.</a> </p>

[galpsi]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Gandalf and Sauron

I really meant that reference more as a question than as an answer. But then, I think that the question sits best that way, unanswered. It seems to me that this was an issue which JRRT left unresolved, at least within the confines of LotR. There is seemingly contradictory material pertaining to it. It is always hard to be sure whether JRRT even solved this question for himself, or whether he even cared to. If so, I think he chose not to foreclose thought on the subject by a decisive answer. Maybe, instead, the question of the two Maia's relative strength seemed to him like an unwise diversion from the more pressing issue of banishing the corrupting power of the Ring from ME. Not that I forbear from hazarding opinions. Sauron was weaker when Gandalf drove him from Dol Guldur in 2063 than he was during the War of the Ring. His preponderant might seems to me to be one of the essential preconditions of the of the story of the War of the Ring as JRRT told it.


</p>

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Gandalf and Sauron

beautiful discussion!
I would love to some day explore the idea of how the Catholic Churches own internal debates set some or most of the stage for JRRT's conception of the hierarchy of the Ainur -
but I am afraid it would be almost total speculatioon {unless someone knows of sources of T.'s church readings -that I don't}
as to what he did or didn't know.

however I am reminded of the fact that 2 non-Ainur defeated sauron with the ring.
was not Gandalf with glamdring the &quot;equal &quot; of Elendil and Gil-Galad w/ their respective weapons?
Of course we will neverknow and the point was rightly made earlier
that the istari came not to engage in sraight on confrontations of power - but rather as some would now say-build community . help to restore the essentialy broken links between the differnet racesand lands in a way that a mortal {even a world traveler and Elf- friend such as Aragorn } could not.
lindil



</p>

[galpsi]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Gandalf and Sauron

I'm similarly interested in the Catholic pedigree, but I don't think that anybody has troubled to bibliograph Tolkien's reading. The project smacks of dissertation. The White Council -- the group at xenite.org, not the one in the third age -- seems to have explored the Inklings angle as much as anybody I know of. If you haven't already, check their archives or maybe start a thread to see if anybody there knows.

</p>

[Suldaledhel]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Gandalf and Sauron

I agree that Gandalf and Sauron are of equal power.... however I feel that when Gandalf was reborn as Gandalf the white I feel that Gandalf's power was not constrained in middle earth as he was *impervious* to all wounds and the Nazgul seemed afraid of him during the battle upon Mordor... If I am wrong however please correct me!!

Goodbye and Farewell wherever you and may your eyries recieve you at the journy's end!!

</p>

[Tar Elenion]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Gandalf and Sauron

JRRT says that Sauron and Ganalf are of a similar nature or origin that is they are Maiar. However he says that Sauron is of a far higher order. This indicates to me that Sauron is more powerful than Gandalf.

Tar-Elenion

</p>

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Gandalf and Sauron

Tar-Elenion
is the reference to Sauron being of a far higher orderin HoME or letters ? I do not recall it in LOTR /SIlm/UT.


</p>

[Boring]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Gandalf and Sauron

I've read on a forum (forgot wich one) that the combined power was greater than that of sauron but the power of a single Istari was less then Sauron cause if one of the istari was tempted te be a new dark lord he would be more easly overthrow then the yester one.

but if you count the wisdom in some one strength i would say that Gandalf would be a stronger then Sauron

</p>

[Serevian The Ranger]

abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz

[inglorion]

Good point Serevian and thanks for bringing this discussion back to life again, else I had never discovered it and then the world would have to live without this post smilies/smile.gif

The whole 'who is stronger'-issue is of no importance if you ask me. Since Gandalf was not allowed to use his full strength to accomplish what he was sent for: the destruction of Sauron. If the whole thing was just a matter of brute strength don´t you think the Valar would have sent someone who would have obliterated Sauron and his gang? The Valar were quite clear about this being a problem of Middle-Earth and not of Aman, however since they were still the Guardians and all, they sent in the Istari to help the Free Peoples. Not to do the job for them.
Another point is the way in which the Evil, in this case Sauron, is battled is very important. Of course the One Ring makes the matter more complicated. You can´t just go and beat the hell out of Sauron making sure he will never be able to cast his shadow over the world again, and expect everything to be ok. The Ring will find itself a new master and so on ... The only way to get rid of Sauron was the indirect sneaky approach used by Gandalf, inspiring those he helped to stand up and do something about it, as is plainly shown in 'The shadow of the past' where Gandalf gradually leads Frodo to his departure from the Shire. By telling him all about the Ring he makes Frodo see the best thing to do is to leave, which he almost certainly wouldn´t have done without Gandalf´s information. There are many more examples in the book of this kind of work, Gandalf´s work. This is what he does, nothing more and nothing less. Of course on a few occasions he uses force, but only when all other possibilities have run out and only in a restricted way. I think if he really was to show his full strength, bearing in mind he had Narya, it would have made quite a firework.
However, his skill was not in force but in wisdom, the opposite of Sauron you might say. That is why you can´t really say which one is stronger; their fields of development are too different.

Greetings, gildor

[mordor136]

I have been wondering since I first found this forum. Sauron is only one Istari,and he is handicapped because he put most of his power into the one ring. Could not all the Istari combined overthrow Sauron. The blue wizards, radagast , gandalf,and saruman are all maiar. So they should be able to pull it off.

[Fenrir]

If there was another Last Alliance led by Gandalf I suspect the two great armies would cancel each other out.
ME would be ruled by Hobbits, the only race that wouldn't participate. Everything east of the Misty Mountains would be completely destroyed.

[Turambar]

I believe that Gandalf says at least twice in LotR that Sauron is more powerful or dangerous than him.

[inglorion]

Certainly he says Sauron is more powerful, simply because Sauron´s specialty is being powerful and dangerous; that´s why he´s in Middle-Earth after all.
Gandalf shouldn´t be powerful, that´s not his nature, although he is of course quite powerful. There are different ways to use power:
the Sauron-way vs. the Gandalf-way.
Maybe Sauron is more powerful because his way is the easy way. Gandalf said somewhere that Sauron was becoming very powerful but he still wasn´t above fear. Giving in to ones fears is easier then resisting them. And according to Master Yoda fear leads to the Dark Side. Maybe it´s not entirely LotR but I think the old Jedi´s words can be used for this whole situation as well.

[Serevian The Ranger]

your welcome i like bringing stuff to life even dead dogs

[Lindolirian]

In the Silmarillion it says that Sauron was the most powerful of the Maiar. But it said that Gandalf (then known as Olorin) was the wisest. Irt doesn't help Sauron much to have all the power but to not use it properly. For example he did a stupid thing in letting a few little insignificant (or so he thought ) hobbits ito his realm. He considered Gondor to be the greater danger. So it was not all the power that made him the best but being not as wise as Gandalf that killed him.

[sauron_96]

Sauron is only one Istari,and he is handicapped because he put most of his power into the one ring. Could not all the Istari combined overthrow Sauron. The blue wizards, radagast , gandalf,and saruman are all maiar. So they should be able to pull it off.
---mordor

let me just say that sauron was not an istari, for there were only five. gandalf, saruman, radagast, alatar, and pallando.
you could say that if the wizards should combine their powers to overthrow the dark lord, they would win.
But to reiterate what a few have been saying, its purely skeptical. They were sent not to fight power with power, but to educate and urge the free peoples of middle earth to fight sauron in some way. And if their powers were constrained, then it becomes doubly hard to speculate.

[Elendur]

I will set one thing straight, and that is Sauron is not one of the Istari. The Istari were Maiar sent to Middle Earth with restrictions on their power and the same weaknesses that mortals had. The Istari were sent to Middle Earth in the Third Age, whereas Sauron had obviously been around since the beginnings of Ea. And Sauron had no restriction to how he could use his power.

This is kindof an odd topic to have a thread on anyways. Gandalf, or the other Istari, would not have directly assaulted Mordor. They could not have won.

[Luineglin]

we will never know because the istari could not reveal themselves and let us know how truly powerful they really were. sauruan is not an istari so we cannot know his true amount of power either there are many ifs and maybes in this topic. another point i will reiterate is that the istari could not assualt morodor but rather encourage the other free races to do so.

[Elrian]

Sauron was a Maia, who once served Aule before aligning himself with Melkor. He was stronger than both Saruman and Gandalf.

[obloquy]

I recently posted a quote from HoMe that clearly implied that Olorin was equal to Sauron in power, though not greater.

[Elrian]

I don't think he was greater than Sauron in the form he was sent in though. They were sent to aid the free peoples not confront Sauron outright. But as Olorin, he would have been a match for him.

[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: Elrian ]

[Legolas]

To the poster who mentioned all 5 Istari taking on Sauron - we know the blue wizards set off into the west and did not return. It's not written anywhere, but it may be safe to assume that were not interested in the affairs of western Middle Earth, as it had no effect on them. As noted by many others throughout many posts of this nature, the Istari were restricted by the form in which they entered Middle Earth (Saruman least of all because of his disregard for 'good').

[ January 07, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

also, the likelihood of Saruman-corrupted by power-uniting with Gandalf...?

[O'Boile]

My favorite quote says it: "Dangerous!" cried Gandalf. "And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord." -Gandalf

That does seem to sum it up right there. Good job RL zero.

[bombur]

Some comments on relative strenghts...

Sauron with the one ring, versus backstabbing hobbit with Orthanc-fire bronze cannon... Sauron dies. (Lets remember that Fingolfin was only an elf and in a duel he managed to maim Morgoth, a Vala before death.)

Aragorn wielding the palantir, Sauron not... Sauron loses the control of the Palantir.

For rather methaphysical reasons, Istari are SUPPOSED to engage Sauron without succumbing to the same Maiar power trip Sauron is taking in the mortal lands of middle earth. They have come as advisors and co-ordiantors. If all five of the Istari were to cast aside their limitations they basically could have stormed Mordor in form of five combatmachines equal in form to balrogs or as monstrosities like what Sauron was when engaging Elendil etc. If they had succeeded, Valar would have been automatically considering whether they should send 25 new istari to deal with theese new problems in the balance of the natural order. If they had fallen under countless hordes of trolls, nothing accomplished.

LOTR does not address POWER as a roleplaying game does. It is somewhat more mature in the approach, I think. The power of the mights of middle earth is shown in tactics, plots, armies they are able to recruit, allegiancies they are able to convert/gather, wills they are able to manipulate, distances they are able to see through, enemy plans they are able to reveal...

Had Galadriel worn the ring and succumbed to the temptation of raw power it offered, where would Mithrandir gotten the army to storm Lothlorien? Would he have joined with orcs? This all assuming of cource that by her new power of will and their old friendship and association, Galadriel had not been able to convince Gandalf to serve her.


Janne Harju

[Tirned Tinnu]

Wonderful replies abound in this thread! You've cleared my mind about Gandalf vs. Sauron.
I do however, have one comment:
Gandalf was not really there to conquer Sauron; he was there to bring balance back into Middle Earth. He sought to co-join the Races of Elves and Men back to their former glory. He wished for peace, above all things, and obviously wished to help in any way that he could.
I see that often his goal was to impart ambition in the hearts of Elves, Men, Hobbits and Dwarves, and to aid them in completing their fate-given tasks.
He was not there to take over - he just helped where he could.

[ September 06, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ]

[ September 06, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ]

[Luinadar]

It probably has less to do with power - how do you measure that kind of mystic strength anyway? - and more to do with motivation, will and ethics. Sure Gandalf could go as apocalyptic as Sauron, but he never would as it wasn't his nature. To emulate Sauron in a flagrant display of power would be evil, period. That is why The Dark Lord is so feared and revered, he has no morality to keep him in check and therefore no real limit to the horrors he is capable of. Saruman however could have been a realistic corporeal threat to Sauron. Sauron himself most likely knew this too, and therefore enslaved the will of Saruman so as to remove his only possible peer in power and darkness.

[Ar-Luman]

Obviously strength and power did not win the day for Sauron. So even if Sauron was much more powerful than Gandalf, what did it profit him? Gandalf was the wisest and through wisdom he brought down the Dark Lord. So that in itself shows power greater than strength and might.

[Luinadar]

I agree that Gandalfs strategy was crucial to defeating Sauron, but its ultimate execution had more to do with Hobbit resilience and tenacity didnt it? Also in single combat, Gandalf vs Saruman, Saruman won. So although Sauron had no physical presence as such, his potency in single combat would surely still be extremely formidable. Enough to defeat Gandalf?

[Legolas]

bombur, you must take into account that by that time, Morgoth had been weakened as his power was spread too thin.

For everyone, there is more on this Istari vs. Sauron in this thread: The Powers of the Istari (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001982). I encourage you all to read it. If not anything else, read the first post of it.

Turned Tinnu is right - the wizards weren't sent for direct confrontation, as Tolkien states:

...whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men and Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt.

This is because Middle-earth had to save Middle-earth on its own. If the Istari simply went in and pounded Mordor apart, what would Middle-earth have gained? It would be likely that some other evil would take over since the men, elves, and dwarves had not learned to trust in their own strength and abilities to do what is right. The Ainur of Middle-earth weren't placed there to baby the inhabitants everytime they got in a jam.

[ October 02, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[TolkienGurl]

Well, I'm no expert on matters concerning the Valar and of other topics from the Silmarillion, but it seems to me that Gandalf was sent to Middle Earth to be a sort of guardian angel, aiding the those who were prominent in the War of the Ring, yet not becoming too involved. Didn't it say somewhere that the War of the Ring was to be the final and most important struggle in Gandalf's time on Middle Earth? Well, maybe the challenge was trying not to interfere too much.

Correct me if I'm wrong! smilies/wink.gif

~TolkienGurl~

[bombur]

Legalos
”bombur, you must take into account that by that time, Morgoth had been weakened as his power was spread too thin.”

Indeed, but still he was vala, and also Sauron was betting heawily in his armies.

Luinadar:
”It probably has less to do with power - how do you measure that kind of mystic strength anyway? - and more to do with motivation, will and ethics.”

Yes, basically I agree. But it has got to do with power as well. I mean, being offered the one ring Gandalf is very tempted. He knows, thet hie power would increase even more if he had the one ring, and THEN he went apocalyptic.

I do not think the war of the ring and the role of the Istari are merely about ”letting the kids handle it themselves.” I think it is about taking the apocalyptic influence of Maiar and Valar AWAY from mortal lands. I mean, if this is the MAIN goal, then it can hardly be acchieved by unleaching five more maiar with no restraints upon Middle Earth. We shoul remembered that the Valar have history of a serie of literally earth shattering conflicts to think about. They know that it is just not ”how it all was meant to be.”


Janne Harju

[Fallen King of Angmar]

yep I love that one too )(