High elves?

[Artalwen]

I have been very curious, so my curiousity finally got me to ask the question:

Were there any high elves left at the time of Frodo and Pippin and Merry and Sam, when they had to go destroy the ring?

[Aule]

Galadriel was a high elve. The high elves were then elves that had seen the light of the tree's before they were destroyed.
Or were of the Noldor, Teleri or Vanyar, but i don't thnk any of the Vanyar had ever come back to middle earth after the overthrow of Melkor.

[Legolas]

Glorfindel was a High Elf, so was Galadriel. Quite possible that there were some Noldor in Rivendell, and more that came back across the sea with Galadriel.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

There were supposedly some Noldor in LothLorien too. Galdriel, Elrond, Glorfindel and Gildor were high Elves, though there were only a few Noldor left, most of them were in Rivendell. The Sindar could be classified as High elves, so Celeborn, Thradnuil, Legolas and Cirdan could be classified as high Elves.

[Jurion]

I always thought that High Elves were those elves that saw the light of the Trees in Valinor so the only elves being classified as High Elves in Middle Earth are Noldor descent (and Thingol). So Elrond is not a High Elf but Galadriel is. I don't know if Gildor and Glorfindel are old enough to have seen the light of the Trees or if they were born in Middle Earth.

This means that it is not impossible, though that there remain more High Elves in Lothlorien or Rivendell or any other place in Middle Earth.

[ January 14, 2003: Message edited by: Jurion ]

[Aratlithiel]

Properly speaking, the title High-elves should apply to those two Kindreds of the Eldar who sailed over Sea far back in the First Age to dwell with the Valar. However, in translations from the Red Book, and following the usage of the Dunedain, the term has been primarily used to indicate those of the Noldor (the Second Kindred) who returned to Middle-earth in Exile before the Age was ended.

Either way you look at it, Glorfindel was a High-elf. He was of the Firstborn and had returned to Middle-earth in Exile during the Elder Days. He is featured in many of the Middle-earth tales including the Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales and The Lord of the Rings.

[Aule]

A little correction Aritlithiel on the kindredsthat went over the sea, there were infact 3, the Teleri, Vanyar and Noldor.
Jurion Glorfindel was a high elve who had been killed during the first age by a Balrog and then reincarnated.
I always thought that Elrond would be counted as a High elve, cause he is half Noldorin on his Mothers side. So that even though he wasn't alive during the years of the tree's he would still be counted as a high elve as he is part of that race that went over the sea.

[Jurion]

I know who Glorfindel was, but the problem I see is that we do not know if Glorfindel ever saw the light of the Trees. If so then he is indeed a High Elf, if not then he is 'merely' a younger Noldor. The same apllies to Elrond, he has not seen the light of the Trees so he cannot be a High Elf, which is another name for Calaquendi.

[Legolas]

Elrond is not an elf, so he can't be a High Elf.

Like I said before, Glorfindel is a High Elf. Why do you say otherwise?

[Aratlithiel]

A little correction Aritlithiel on the kindredsthat went over the sea, there were infact 3, the Teleri, Vanyar and Noldor.

Sorry to nitpick, Aule, but I'm a little anal about this stuff. The Quendi were divided into two main branches: the lesser East-elves (or Wood-elves) and the West-elves (or Eldar). The Eldar were the Three Kindreds who were summoned to dwell in Eldamar, but only two of them did so. The Sindar (or Grey-elves) stayed in Middle-earth. In this way, the race of Elves became divided into three: Wood-elves, Grey-elves (Sindar) and High-elves (the name for those Eldar who went to Eldamar). When some of these High-elves left during the rebellion, they became known as Noldor - Galadriel and Glorfindel were two of these.

The First Kindred is not named at all. They still dwell in the Blessed Realm and have never left.

The Second Kindred is the Noldor.

The Third Kindred is the Sindar.

Elrond is descended from Luthien who was a Sindar. Since the Sindar did not return to Eldamar at the summons, they are not considered High-elves. However, the fact that Luthien is descended from Thingol (Grey-elven King) and Lady Melian (one of the Valar) you would think he would get some kind of special dispensation or something.

Sheesh! This Elf stuff can get confusing!

[Maédhros]

Well, if you want to be as true to the book as you can then, if you read the index of LOTR, you will notice that in LOTR when they talk about High Elves, they use the definition that they were the followers of Fëanor to ME.
Yes, Gildor is referred to as a High Elf in LOTR.

[Lalaith]

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A little correction Aritlithiel on the kindredsthat went over the sea, there were infact 3, the Teleri, Vanyar and Noldor.
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Sorry to nitpick, Aule, but I'm a little anal about this stuff. The Quendi were divided into two main branches: the lesser East-elves (or Wood-elves) and the West-elves (or Eldar). The Eldar were the Three Kindreds who were summoned to dwell in Eldamar, but only two of them did so. The Sindar (or Grey-elves) stayed in Middle-earth. In this way, the race of Elves became divided into three: Wood-elves, Grey-elves (Sindar) and High-elves (the name for those Eldar who went to Eldamar). When some of these High-elves left during the rebellion, they became known as Noldor - Galadriel and Glorfindel were two of these.

The First Kindred is not named at all. They still dwell in the Blessed Realm and have never left.

The Second Kindred is the Noldor.

The Third Kindred is the Sindar.

Elrond is descended from Luthien who was a Sindar. Since the Sindar did not return to Eldamar at the summons, they are not considered High-elves. However, the fact that Luthien is descended from Thingol (Grey-elven King) and Lady Melian (one of the Valar) you would think he would get some kind of special dispensation or something

I hate to nitpick too but Aule is actually right. The three kindreds who went to Valinor were indeed the Vanyar, the Noldor and the Teleri. The Vanyar, led by Ingwe, are the only elves with golden hair, and they never returned to Middle Earth. However, the Noldo Finarfin, Galadriel's father, married a Vanya which is why she has gold hair.
Thingol, or Elwe, was a Teleri, and when he became enchanted by Melian the Maia, some of his kindred stayed to look for him. The other Teleri, led by Elwe/Thingol's brother Olwe, were pulled to Valinor on the island of Tol Eressea. Those who stayed (and also some of the Teleri kindred who left the Great Journey from Lake Cuivenien earlier) are known as Sindar.
However, Thingol had previously gone to Valinor as an emissary, so he had indeed seen the Light of the Trees. Hence Luthien with her Eldar/Maian descent, is certainly not Sindarin!

[Jurion]

Legalos I say otherwise because I am not entirely sure that Glorfindel ever saw the light of the Trees. I have yet to see proof (in books written by Tolkien or edited by his son) that he ever saw the light of the Trees, I might have missed it or read over it or something, so if you have this proof then please show me. If he was born before the Noldor went in Exile then he is indeed a High Elf but if he was born after the Noldor returned to Middle Earth then he is not a High Elf

[ January 14, 2003: Message edited by: Jurion ]

[Aratlithiel]

I apologize - I am not making myself clear. The names of the Kindreds I gave above are those by which they were known after the exodus from Eldamar.

Luthien was born on Middle-earth to Melian and Thingol (a.k.a. Sindacollo) and is therefore Sindarin - regardless of her descent. She cannot be a High-elf without having been to Aman.

And being a High-elf has nothing to do with having seen the trees - the High-elves are the Elves of Aman and all Elves who ever dwelt in Aman. Descendants don't qualify.

[Jurion]

I always thought that High Elves were the same as the Calaquendi and Calaquendi being Elves who saw the light of the Two Trees.
The Encyclopedia of Arda (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm)

Calaquendi, The Elves of the Light:
Elves of the Light'; a name given to the Vanyar, the Noldor and that part of the Teleri who travelled to Aman in the youth of the world and saw the light of the Two Trees of Valinor; Elu Thingol of Doriath is also counted among their number.

You say that Glorfindel is a High Elf because he died and went to Mandos, was reincarnated and came back to Middle Earth?

[ January 14, 2003: Message edited by: Jurion ]

[ January 14, 2003: Message edited by: Jurion ]

[Voronwe]

I am not entirely sure that Glorfindel ever saw the light of the Trees.

You have Gandalf's word for it in The Fellowship of the Ring that Glorfindel had dwelt in the Blessed Realm. This might not been seen as definitive proof that he had seen the light of the Trees however, but there is a statement proving that he did from JRRT in the essay 'Glorfindel' (HoME XII):
he left Valinor in the host of Turgon

However, as has already been pointed out, all the elves of Aman were High Elves, irrespective of whether they had seen the light of the Trees or not.

[ January 14, 2003: Message edited by: Voronwe ]

[Jurion]

Thanks for pointing that out to me Voronwe. So it seems that Glorfindel had seen the light of the Trees and is a Calaquendi. If you say that all elves who ever dwelt in Aman are High Elves then I take your word for it.

[lindil]

Glorfindel of Gondolin almost certainly saw the Tree's as he was a lord of Gondolin.

The Noldor in Gondolin would be unlikely to have attained such stature if he was born in M-E.

As regards High-Elves and Kalaquendi, [I look at it this way although I am not sure if JRRT wrote anything definitive on it] they could have been said to be synonomous unti the Noldor began giving birth in M-E, then their descendants were still High Elves [ due to Noldorin culture one could say] but they were not Kalaquendi, not having seen the light of the trees.

[Jurion]

Lindil, I think that you are probably right.

[Legolas]

If he was born before the Noldor went in Exile then he is indeed a High Elf but if he was born after the Noldor returned to Middle Earth then he is not a High Elf

Somewhat of an unwritten postulate: children of High Elves are High Elves too, if only by inheritance of the title. They did not necessarily have to see the Light of Trees with their own eyes to be High Elves.

Even so, it seems likely that Glorfindel would have seen the light himself, being old enough to have came back, either with Fingolfin or Feanor, since by the Fall of Gondolin, he was established as a noble chief there.

[Lalaith]

There is a definitive chart on the various branches of Elvendom in the back of the Silmarillion, for those who are interested.

Thingol did indeed dwell in Aman in the time of the Two Trees, although he returned to Middle Earth. However, he did ban the use of Quenya, the High Eleven tongue, in Doriath, as those who spoke it had slaughtered his Teleri kin in Alqualonde.
I believe that being of Calaquendi descent would also make you Calaquendi. Celebrimbor, for example, son of Curufin, appears to have been born in M-E, and yet he is not Sindarin, but Noldor.
Legolas, a Sindarin Elf, says so when the Fellowship visit Hollin.

[Jurion]

I don't think that being the descendant of a Calaquendi makes you a Calaquendi, but I do not dispute that being the descendant of a Noldor makes you a Noldor as well, it is still the same 'culture'.

Thingol was counted among the Calaquendi because he was one of three emissaries (Ingwe, Finwe, and Elwe=Thingol) who went to Valinor with Orome before the great journey of all the Eldar. Thingol never saw the light of the Trees again because he met Melian. The people over whom he ruled, part of the Teleri, were still Moriquendi.

[Lalaith]

Thats very true. But you could argue that the divisions of the elves happened at the time of the Great Journey. After that, you simply belonged to the division you were born into.

[Artalwen]

Thank you all for answering my question, I really appreciate it! So there weren't many...but there were some? That's great to know!

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Lalaith, Celebrimbor was proably born in Valinor, since of the sons of Faenor who were married, none of their wives went with them to M-E. (Maglor, Curufin and Caranthir were married.)

[Lalaith]

That's really interesting. I wondered about Celebrimbor's mother, who I have never found mentioned. Where does it say about the wives of the sons of Feanor?

[Frodo Baggins]

*Ahem* For a small clarification.....


Elrond's father Earendil was half elven half human. His mother Elwing was Elven and human as well, though I can't remember which perpoetions, but I think she's a bit more elven, and also 1/8 Maiar. Therefore, Elrond may be halfelven, but he's more elven than human. Becuse of this I think he can be classified as being of elven kind.

[Lalaith]

Elwing's mother Nimloth was a Sindarin Elf. Her father was Dior, who had a human father, and an elven/maia mother.

[Jurion]

Elrond's father Earendil was half elven half human. His mother Elwing was Elven and human as well, though I can't remember which perpoetions, but I think she's a bit more elven, and also 1/8 Maiar. Therefore, Elrond may be halfelven, but he's more elven than human. Becuse of this I think he can be classified as being of elven kind.

But Elrond's brother Elros, who was clearly no Elf, had the same lineage. Elrond being an Elf comes from choice given to all half-elves. Elrond chose to be counted among the Firstborn, while Elros chose to be a king of Men.

[Lalaith]

I still want to know about the wives of the sons of Feanor! Anyone?

[lindil]

Lailath, I do not have time to check now , but my guess is that the bit about the wives of the sons of Feanor was in THe shibboleth of feanor in HoME XII.

Again to try and clarify,

Being the child of the Noldor [ and by extension a High-elf] makes you a noldor[ and by extension a High-elf].
If you were born [ as Noldor] in M-E after the death of the 2 trees, then you [ most likely] would NOT be considered a Kalaquendi, because the name reffers explicitly to Elves who had seen the light of the 2 Trees.


So...

All Kalaquendi are either Vantar, Noldor or teleri [ including Thingol]

All of the above are also High-Elves.

However not all High-Elves are Kalaquendi if they were born of the above parents [excepting Luthien for now] if they were born in M-E and never saw the light of the Trees.

[Aratlithiel]

The following is a direct quote from The Silmarillion...

"The Elves of Aman, and all Elves who ever dwelt in Aman were called the High Elves (Tareldar) and Elves of Light (Calaquendi).

"All Elves that did not cross the Great Sea were called Dark Elves (Moriquendi)."

BUT

"In the period of Exile of the Noldor it was often used of the Elves of Middle-earth (other than the Noldor and the Sindar) and is then virtually equivalent to Avari (the Unwilling, the Refusers - the name given to all those Elves who refused to join the westward march from Cuivenen.)"

So it appears that the meaning of High-elf changed with the Exile. Before the Exile it included ALL Elves who had dwelt in Aman. After the Exile it referred only those Elves who had dwelt in Aman AND joined the westward march.

There is no High-elf by extension...you had to have been one of the Firstborn who dwelt in Aman and crossed westward. Both Celeborn and Galadriel were High-elves but their daughter Celbrian is referred to only as a Noldor - she is not a High-Elf because she had never dwelt in Aman. Noldor is not synonymous with High-elf.

[Lalaith]

Oh dear, now I'm even more confused. Celeborn a High Elf? I thought he was a Sindarin, a relation of Thingol dwelling in Doriath.
Sigh.

[Jurion]

After the Exile it referred only those Elves who had dwelt in Aman AND joined the westward march.

If this is so then Celeborn cannot be a High Elf in the Third Age because he had never dwelt in Aman. He stayed in Beleriand east of the sea and never made across the sea.

[Aratlithiel]

CRUD!! I KNEW I should have proof-read before hitting submit!! You're absolutely right my apologies. Celeborn was a Sindar, he was NOT a High-elf. Sorry. Fingers were moving faster than the brain.

[lindil]

"After the Exile it referred only those Elves who had dwelt in Aman AND joined the westward march."

So if I understand your supposition correctly, daeron was a High-Elf but Celebrian was not?

This makes little sense.

Why would Noldor born after the exile not be high-Elves and Sindar born before would?

[Aratlithiel]

Who said the Sindar were High-elves? The Sindar never went on the Great Journey and so could not be High-elves. Daeron was a Sindar and not a High-elf. It doesn't matter WHEN they were born, it only matters WHERE they've been. If you've lived in Aman, you're a High-elf.

[lindil]

"The title of 'Eldar' was applied to the Elves of Aman and to those who undertook the great journey" [ i.e. the Sindar and also the Laiquendi of Ossiriand it says undertook not completed].

So you are recognizing a distinction in starting and completing the great journey?

I did not see this distinction in your quote above, indeed, I saw the opposite, and thus my elaboration.

However, I looked up High-Elves in HoME X and found this on p.349 of the Athrabeth, which seems to decide the matter firmly according to your interpretation.

THe Elves who were in or who had ever dwelt in Aman were called the HiGH-Elves (Tareldar}.

However knowing in my heart that that was too simple a resolution and that JRRT was bound to contradict himself smilies/rolleyes.gif

We find in PoME, page 31 the following For when the Fathers of Men came over the mountains for the first time they met the Eldar, or High Elves; and the Eldar were at that time engaged in ceaseless war with the Dark Lord.

on page 73 of PoM-E he calls the Teleri who never crossed the sea "kin of the High-Elves.

However the point of view which I espoused earlier [ and by the way I do not subscribe to the eldar= HighElves, even though there is at least a single reference to it] is clearly stated in PoME p.175 [ from the Tale of years] 750 second age: Foundation of Imladris [or rivendell] and of Eregion [or hollin] as dwellings of the Noldor or High-Elves.

here the entirety of the Nodor are given the title High Elves - including the children of the Noldor [ who may have begun to predominate the original Exiles].

on PoM-E p.221, we have the unusual usage of " but though Mithrellas was of the lesser silvan race [ and not fo the High-Elves or Grey] ..." as if Noldor and hig-Elf were synonomus.

In the PoME [ page 256] begining of what came ot be The Numenorean Kings section of Appendix A in the LotR , we read there were 3 Unions of High-Elves and Men.

In the RotK this reads, "Eldar and Men".

This follows what we would consider the more normative usage [at least for luthien - although one could reasonably argue for her being a High-Elf on the virtue of her half-maian anscestery.

On the next page in both PoM-E and RotK, we see to him therefore was granted the same grace as to those of the High-Elves [ed. note Sindar/silvan too?] that still lingered...

In the Shibboleth [ a very late work .68] we read ...Quenya was a language of lore known and used only by the dwindling remnant of the High-Elves [of noldorin descent],...

that unusual usage seems again to inply there were other non Noldorin Eldar in M-E.

It does also confirm however the use of High-Elves for those of 'Noldorin descent'.

one final note; in the PoM-E index under High-Elves it says after the main entries [i]see Eldar!

I recently gave away my copy of the letters, but I have access to one perhaps more easily searched - i would however be suprised to see anything other than the same sort of story we see in PoME, a varrying set of contradictory usages.

I rather imagine that JRRT used them with some distinction in his mind, but often in the course of writing chose more according to euphony than exactness.

The muse is a right brained creature it would seem.

[Aratlithiel]

Ugh! This is too involved and the thing is, no matter which point you argue, you're always at least half-right. I think the problem is that High-elves had a specific definition before the Great Journey and then a revised one after resulting in some confusion over what qualifies. Same goes for Dark-elves.

Someone needs to do a "Lines of Descent" that gives the title (High-elf, Grey-elf, etc.) along with the names. This is way too much contradictory info. to keep in my poor head! I can barely keep my brain from rolling out my ears the way it is!!

Lindil, if you could whip up something like that and send me a copy, I will bow down to your superior Elf knowledge! smilies/smile.gif (Hmmm...does that sound like a challenge?)

[Lalaith]

I quite agree, this is all making my head spin!
But one thing on which Tolkien does seem to be quite categoric - the definition of Eldar is 'Elves of the Great Journey.' Those who refused are Avari.
BUT - while all High Elves (Calaquendi) are Eldar, not all Eldar are Calaquendi. The Sindar and Nandor, who made the Journey but never got to Valinor, are Umanyar - defined as 'Eldar who are not of Aman'.
BUT - both Umanyar and Avari are Moriquendi - 'those who never saw the light of the Trees.'
I'm not sure if this helps.

[lindil]

well perhaps Tar Elenion has a head for this sort of thing, but I have already done what I can [ and spent waaay too long at it too smilies/wink.gif ].

I think that the contradictions are way to embedded.

We shall in future posts just have to speak as carefully as possible.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Sorry to nitpick Lalaith (My god, this is beginning to sound repetitive) but:

. The Vanyar, led by Ingwe, are the only elves with golden hair, and they never returned to Middle Earth.

Some returned for 40 odd years in the war of wrath.

However, the Noldo Finarfin, Galadriel's father, married a Vanya which is why she has gold hair.

Finarfin married a Telerin princes-Earwen, daughter of Olwe. It was Finwe who married a Vanyar, Indis, who was close kin of Ingwe, sometimes she was his sister and sometimes his niece. Finarfin and his children, have golden hair. Just a question where is it in the Silmarillion that states that Fingolfin had golden hair? His eldest son, Fingon, is said to have dark, gold-plaited hair (Hence his Quenya name Findekano-hair shout) and Aredhel also had dark hair, and I’m sure that Argon had dark hair as well. I have never, to my knowledge found nay reference to Turgon’s hair, or it’s colour. Anyone know? Also, on the subject of Aegnor’s hair, which was said to be ‘strong and stiff, rising upon his head like fire’. Well it seems that Aegnor ha pretty funky hair. Anyone care to describe it in their own way. I fancy he was rather like some characters form a Japanese anime named Dragonball Z.

So, there’ my nitpicking, though I suppose that someone will be picking my nits soon enough. I would also like to say how much I have enjoyed reading this topic and there have been many great and informative posts.

[Legolas]

The Silmarillion states that only Finarfin and his descendents inherited the golden hair of his mother, Indis:

Alone among the Noldorin princes he and his descendants had golden hair, derived from his mother Indis, who was a Vanyarin Elf.

Turgon's daugther Idril is the only exception we see:

But fairer than all the wonders of Gondolin was Idril, Turgon's daughter, she that was called Celebrindal, the Silver-foot, whose hair was as the gold of Laurelin before the coming of Melkor.

A possible explanation of this is that she inherited this hair colour from Elenwë, her mother.

Your generalizations of hair colour are way too broad.

Vanyar were not the only kindred to have golden hair. That is totally, completely false. smilies/wink.gif

Thranduil and Glorfindel (just off the top of my head) had golden hair.

ALMOST all of the Vanyar had blonde hair. MOST of the Noldor had dark hair. The hair colour of the Teleri is varied (dark, gold, silver).

You must think of it like this: 144 elves awoke in the beginning. They didn't divide themselves up into three/four groups based on hair colour and only reproduce within their own groups. The division of kindreds came later on when the elves were deciding which [eventual] elf-lord they would follow.

[obloquy]

Exactly. Well said, Legalos.

The reason the tribes (as they eventually divided) had largely similar features was probably due to most sticking to their close kindred, and thus each tribe being generally -- though definitely not exclusively -- comprised of a particular family or many related families.

Another similar post (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001235).

[Lalaith]

Mea Culpa, Inderjit. Of course it was Finarfin's mother not his wife that had golden hair. I don't know how I came to make such an error. :blush:

[lindil]

Forget hair colour!

Was Gil-Galad [ if he was born in M-E] the High-King of the noldor but not a High-Elf?! smilies/wink.gif

[Legolas]

Of course not. smilies/wink.gif I'm in full agreement. Whether or not the classification of "Calaquendi" is not inherited, being the label of High Elf is. All Caliquendi are High Elves, but not all High Elves are Calaquendi.

[Jurion]

I agree, Gil-Galad was a High Elf by inheritance but he was not a Calaquendi.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Note: The quote on the fact that all Blonde haired elves hair was blonde was a quote from someone else’s post and I was correcting it. My fault, I should have made that clearer.