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Isengard
07-19-2000, 05:27 PM
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I was just wondering on the limit to Gandalf's powers before and after he fought the Balrog. I know he was pretty powerful before and was even more powerful after.

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RL Zero
07-19-2000, 05:49 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: How Extensive were Gandalf's powers?

He fought the Balrog a Maiar when he was Gandalf the Grey. He was mortally wounded but reborn as Gandalf the White. As Gandalf the White he could not be harmed by a weapon.

He was Maiar restricted in power, but was probally right behind Sauron in the Middle Earth power structure.

I think its funny how the Hobbits see Gandalf as more of a Magician that performs at parties instead of the extremely powerful being he is.

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Taimar
07-19-2000, 05:59 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: How Extensive were Gandalf's powers?

One noticeable change after Gandalf`s reappearance is that he is far less reluctant to use his powers. If you think back to when the Company are trying to light a fire on the slopes of Caradhras, it is only as a last resort that Gandalf actually helps. Compare this to when he shows himself to Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli under the eaves of Fangorn. He (quite frivolously) sends an arrow of Legolas` flaming into the sky. I think that some of the strictures which had been placed on Gandalf the Grey were removed when he became Gandalf the White. Perhaps the Valar thought this necessary due to Saruman`s fall from grace. I think that Saruman was (originally) the strongest of the Istari and Gandalf became what he should have been.

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RL Zero
07-19-2000, 06:03 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: How Extensive were Gandalf's powers?

I agree Saruman was the strongest of the original Istari. He held Gandlaf at Isengard and Gandalf could do nothing.

I also agree that Gandalf became less conservative. I think the hour for last measures was at hand.

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Isengard
07-20-2000, 04:33 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: How Extensive were Gandalf's powers?

I completely agree with al of you. There was a definte change in Gandalf's Power and composure. I mean before he was very reluctant to show what he could do yet when he became The White he beacme very strong and was not reluctant to weild his destructive nature. Lets face it. It was like finding a whole new Gandalf. Like a long lost twin that has been working out at the gym all of his life and is so much more powerful than you.


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RL Zero
07-20-2000, 09:22 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: How Extensive were Gandalf's powers?

He was pretty mean to Grima, when the met in Edoras. I don't know if the old Gandalf would be like that. Probally not. Well maybe.

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The Barrow-Wight
07-21-2000, 01:33 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: How Extensive were Gandalf's powers?

I don't know that Gandalf's power was any greater when he was 'the White'. Instead, I believe he returned to Middle-Earth unfettered by the original constraints of the Istari. Thus, as 'the White' he was allowed to use his power in a less restrained manner.

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galpsi
07-21-2000, 11:25 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: How Extensive were Gandalf's powers?

I have sometimes thought the colors of the wizards were to be understood according to very traditional occidental color-symbolism. White is paradigmatically pure. The Istari were Maia made to come to ME like men, to share their struggles, somewhat like Christ had to partake of the humbling experience of creation to save the created. Gandalf the Grey was besmirched, mortal, man-like, but when he was reborn he was white, unstained, purified. The discussion where Saruman repudiated his symbolically-pure whiteness in favor of the scientifically-subtle conception of white, understood as encompassing all colors, carries a certain resonance if this is so. For those with a metaphysical bent, like JRRT and like Gandalf, sophisticated optical theories offer no very good replacement for purity. The young hobbits note that the new Gandalf is freer than the old one. I think that that is a symptom of his liberation from the artificial constraints of his (sub)mission.
btw, a particularly fabulous example of this kind of color-symbolism in Christian art is Matthias Grunewald's Isenheim Altarpiece. Check it out!

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lindil
07-22-2000, 12:24 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: How Extensive were Gandalf's powers?

In addition Gandalf was newly returned from Valinor-which was I imagine an energising and in the literal sense of the word 'inspiring' ocassion - but I think the
way Gandalf bears himself in the remainder of his war against Sauron is as much from an initiation of sorts from grey to white
{whatever that means - although I seriously doubt the Istari had any colours in valinor- I wonder if this was a formalising of the hierarchy for the purpose of completing their mission[ hopefully] w/ out confusion .
but back to the powr of gandalf 'the white'and his return from valinor in the Silm. p.106 we read that when the noldor returned to ME that 'the light of Aman was not yet dimmed in their eyes'; implyng that they had a certain power [from association or by osmosis] which I see know reason that would not also effect a maia returning to ME.
lindil

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Boring
07-22-2000, 02:09 PM
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Re: How Extensive were Gandalf's powers?

Gandalf was very powerfull. and his wisdom was very powerfull. but he also had a great power of Narya the ring he wielded that Cirdan gave him.

And i 2 think he was more powerfull as Gandalf the White. it seems to me that he lost his boundries so he then could put forth his full and

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The Westward Road
07-25-2000, 08:12 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: How Extensive were Gandalf's powers?

The light of Aman, lindil, was the light of the trees which only existed in the Earendal's (sp) star (Simaril) during the third age. I imagine that Olorin had seen the light but that was long before he came to ME the first time as Gandalf.
I do not feel that Gandalfs death/rebirth gives him that much more power.
The book says Gandalf dies and is reborn but I feel Gandalf only uses these analogies to get around a long and needless explaination of his true form and origin. He probably did pass away like Sauron did when Luth. and Beren defeated him.The Valar and Maiar could cast of there forms which copyed the children of Ilvatar like clothes. He then passed back to Valinor as a spirit where he probably reported to the Valar. After he returns he finally acts openly in to take down Sauron. The LT of Bradbadur even says the greyfool has often snuck around behind our back but has stuck his nose out to far this time. Gandalf was forsighted and knew that when he returned it was time to show his true power.(he may have spoken with Mandos of Nienna in Valinor) Because He did not seem like a threat until he returns from the west Gandalf was able to do things like become friends with the rangers and hobbits. It just another case of the weak succeeding where the wise have failed.(ex Hobbits bring down Sauron instead of Elves of Numenoreans) Sauraman was supposed to be the strongest. He opposed Sauron longer, but he failed. Gandalf held the greater power, like the hobbits had the greater will and thus good carry the ring longer, Gandalf just hid it. Then when it counted He was unviel in the end. The grey fog lifted to show his true self that he fufilled his mission and raised all of the children against the darkness

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Shadow of Udn
08-09-2002, 01:25 AM
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Shadow of Udn
08-09-2002, 01:26 AM
Ignore this, please, I was just testing my picture but didn't fancy starting a new thread just for it.