The Effects of Fantasy

[Rosa Underhill]

Wow, it's been far too long since I've been on this board. I've missed you guys! After Spring Break I discovered what being a busy college student really means, that's why I haven't been around much lately.

Okay, I've got a bit of a tough question here and no one has to share if they don't want to, but I need some more info for my research paper that's defending fantasy literature.

What I'd like to know is, did fantasy books (Tolkien or otherwise) ever help you make it through a time of crisis?

I know they helped me get through the worst years of my life (middle school) and that's why I cherish them all so much. Any thoughts you guys could give on this would be greatly appreciated and if I use any quotes in my paper I'll be sure to ask permission first.

[Starbreeze]

Yes, they did help me. In several ways. For a start they helped me through adolesence. As most of you know it is a tough time for anyone - all those emotione etc. well I also had to cope with pressure from all sides regarding "fitting in", exams, parents, friends plus findiong out who I really was (found it now, I'm an orc lol!). Reading fantasy provided an escape like no other book could, and it also helped me find out more about my real friends, the ones who scorned my choice in reading material were not true friends as they could not accept me as who I was.
Also fantasy books have inspired my three new intrests - celtic music, drama and writing fantasy (not really a new one but recently uncovered you might say). With out these intrests I really would be lost.
A third point - without Fantasy books I would have been a deeper, less sensitive person. These books taught me about courage and faith, and how to care for people though you don't know them. You could say I grew up in fantasy.
Now, this is kinda a secret so I haven't a clue why I post it on a public board with more than 2000 members, but sometimes, when I'm really stressed I create new worlds for my self. It's like stepping through a portal, the world becomes real, I can see, touch, move everything. In these worlds I can be what ever I want, beautiful or ugly, human or animal.
Depending on my mood I maybe a ruthless fighter in the heat of battle, or I may be a healer, with a gift to heal others (I like this one best) I can have magic or not - anything. Fantasy showed me the paths to these worlds, and I am eternally grateful - they got me through exams. In these worlds I can sort out depression, face problems, step out of myself and look at things from a different point of view. It has helped me with anger management, depression and other problems.
Basically, fantasy has made me a better person. As well as these it has improved my vocabulary.
Rosa, feel free to use any of this in what you write if you want to. Not that I expect you will be able to find anything useful in my babble but there you go. I hope I have been useful. smilies/biggrin.gif

[Starbreeze]

Wow, that was a mouthful. Obviously reading fantasy hasn't inproved my spelling lol.
BTW It has also inspired me to paint, and got me good grades in my art exam.

[littlemanpoet]

I think you have quite a powerful thread started here, Rosa.

Sometimes I think from fourth grade until pretty much now I've been in a constant state of crisis. I don't know how I'd have coped without fantasy, particularly the works of Tolkien. I am thoroughly convinced from experience in Tolkien's thesis that the reason one reads fantasy is for the three-part experience of escape, recovery, and consolation. In fantasy as in nowhere else one can experience Eucatastrophe. I strongly recommend using that concept in your paper. I can do you no better service than quoting from Tolkien's Tree and Leaf: 'This "joy" which I have selected as the mark of the true fairy-story (or romance), or as the seal upon it, merits more consideration....The peculiar quality of "joy" in successful Fantasy can thus be explained as a sudden glimpse of the underlying reality or truth.'

I hope this is helpful.

[Starbreeze]

Oh, BTW Rosa, We missed you!

[Rosa Underhill]

I missed you guys too! (Especially after surfing the 'net and finding a board which had strong policy that stressed the acceptable abuse of "newbies". You guys are so much better!) smilies/smile.gif And I think I'll be able to find a part for what you've said in my paper, Starbreeze.

I'd forgotten about that part, littlemanpoet! Thanks for the reminder; I might just have to add that on to my final draft. (I'm doing the rough draft today; final draft is due in about two weeks. Yikes!) Anybody want me to post what I have so far? (Beware if you do, though; it's currently at eight pages but is slated to be at least twelve.)

Thanks for the help guys! Anything else would be greatly appreciated.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Rosa--Glad you are back. Yes, absolutely, fantasy books have helped me get through some of the most challenging moments in my life. The two books that have had the most influence on me are Lord of the Rings and TH White's The Once and Future King (also one of those books where you can feel joy and sorrow all wrapped up in one!)

Two particular times in my life stand out. When I first read the books in adolescence, way back in the mid 60s, I thought I was a very strange child indeed. I was very much into literature and history and academics. This was a bit unusual, since my family lived in a working class area of Detroit, and these interests stuck out a bit, shall we say! Plus, way back then, teachers looked at girls in different ways than they looked at boys. I will never forget a world history teacher telling me that it was a pity I wasn't a boy since I had such a fine mind (Growl!). Anyways, reading Tolkien and White gave me the confidence to stick out my tongue and tell them I didn't care if I was different. If there could be a world with hobits and elves and poetry which seemed so marvelous, I didn't have to be limited to my own neighborhood and ways of thinking. In fact, I decided I liked being different, and they could all go jump in a lake. I fell in love with medieval history and even went on to get a doctorate in the field.

The second time was much sadder. My husand and I lost our oldest daughter to SIDS, or crib death, when she was 7 months old. This was truly the most horrific experience of my life. We went through a year of serious, serious grieving. Many things helped me get through that year but, among them, was my gut rock belief in Tolkien and fantasy. I really identified with Frodo's plight, having something so horrendous thrust on him with little choice, as well as the sorrow and grief he went through after his "lapse" at Mount Doom. You know I think that, even though Tolkien was quite young when his mother died, he must have remembered some of his emotional response to that immediate loss as well as the grief of ensuing years with no parents, and being shunted from place to place. (He and his wife Edith both faced a similar dilemma and were drawn together by it.) I say this because Tolkien's portrayal of Frodo after the quest up to his departure for Grey Havens was very much that of someone in profound grief. The ups and downs, the problems confronting him on the anniversares of various milestones, being so tired that you simply withdraw from everyday life--these were all very familiar to me. So I am thankful for all the suppport of friends and family through that awful year, but also the writings of a man I never met who taught me that, even in the worst of times, you can go on and, like Frodo, make sacrifices and come out in the end with a more perceptive heart. sharon, the 7th age hobbit smilies/frown.gif

[ April 24, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Starbreeze]

Wow, that was really touching Child. *wipes away tears*
Great Rosa, great to see you back at last, or did I already say that?

[Kuruharan]

HA!-HA! I turned in one of my research papers today!! One down one to go!
(Only 12 pages? Ha, if only you knew.. smilies/wink.gif)

Anyway, back to the topic...

Sometimes I think from fourth grade until pretty much now I've been in a constant state of crisis.
Ouch! smilies/wink.gif

I can do you no better service than quoting from Tolkien's Tree and Leaf
Actually, there is probably quite a lot that one could use on this topic in Tree and Leaf. Leaf by Niggle also continues in a similar vein, although it's an illustration of the point through the use of a story.

I tend to use it as an escape, a way to get away from my life or the problems of the world around me (and don't I need that lately!) The prisoner escaping from his cell that Tolkien talked about fits well with my view of fantasy (and some other things that I do).

[Tigerlily Gamgee]

Wow, this is a pretty deep thread so far, but inspiring nonetheless. Child of the 7th Age... I, too, originate from Detroit! Anyway, here is my response:

Fantasy has been in my life for as long as I can remember, even though I didn't read LOTR until last January. I remember when I was little that I always believed that there were magical beings on this earth. I always watched for unicorns and faeries. I believed that they could help me escape and find peace. They lived within my imagination quite a lot. It helped to find somewhere else to go when peers and school became cruel and hard to handle.
After leaving the unicorns I actually went to superheroes (which are also fantasy-like in a way). I began reading comic books and escaping there, building strength in myself through the strength of the characters...

Lord of the Rings has been great during these last few months. I think that fantasy is one of the last places on earth that you can find nobility in humans. Lord of the Rings is a great novel, but also a lesson in nobility, friendship, sacrifice, love, honor... and I could go on. I think that it teaches people about themselves. I found that reading these books has been a great escape for me, especially with my onset of depression over the past few months. I could find happiness in Tolkien's writing, so I find myself returning to it again and again.
I also like comparing the book to the movie. I am in acting school, so trying to go through the steps of creating such characters has actually helped me with my work. I enjoy seeing what aspect the actor's took from the books and what they found for themselves.
I am not very good at expressing what I really mean to say, but I hope you understand what I am getting at.
Overall, I think that any fantasy is an experience like no other and it can take you to worlds beyond your imagination.

[Aosama, the Wandering Star]

Every other school day I have to ask myself whether I can bear to run around the school building and the top field, if I can bear to pick up another stupid lacrosse stick or basketball. The only way I ever get through it is by imagining that i'm Sam or Frodo, starving and weary in Mordor, captured by orcs... or something along those lines.If it weren't for LOTR and my overactive imagination, I'd have dropped dead last term. This afternoon, I was the right Thain of the Shire, Mehira Took, who would face any torture the cruel tyrant orc named "Mr. Hennenfent" could think to dish up. It was fun, actually.
And on a more serious note, I read the last two books at a time of trauma. Don't ask me to explain. To me its major, to anyone younger way gross, to anyone older trivial. But it helped me forget my own troubles for a while, in favour of Sam and Frodo's; and Merry and Pippins; and Eowyns and... you don't really want to continue, do you?

[MYyyPreciousSS]

This is a good thread. Fantasy writing has always helped me get away from reality. I can just read my books and get caught up in them, without having to worry about reality. Being a teen there is just so many things to worry about, but reading LotR is like having a whole other family, a whole other life, to go to and be apart of. Its also helped me be true to myself and become much more of a open minded person. I've always thought of having somewhat of a "open mind", but every since I started reading fantasy it just gave me a whole other way of thinking about things. I don't even want to know what I would be like if I hadn't discovered fantasy....

[Aosama, the Wandering Star]

Fantasy always made me believe in something better. It wasn't a stretch to imagine a beautiful magical country, because I lived there. I acted out most of my favourite scenes from books, but then I hadnt' read Lotr (I've moved since then). But I like it. the mention of 'fantasy' always reminds me of my favorite beginnings to a book that I made up:
"Long, long ago
When the land was new
Far, far away
Where people there were few..."
Books, especially fantasy and adventure, allow me to go places and do things I could never do in real life. It's kind of liberating, actually.

[Jessica Jade]

Reading TOlkien has changed the way I look at a lot of things in life. I could really elaborate on that right now, but maybe later when i have more time. Reading the books and coming to the 'Downs to discuss them and all their implications, have led me to the decision on what I will write my IB (International Baccaleurate) extended -essay on next year. There nothing i'd rather to write a 4,000 word research paper on than the fantasy genre, postmodernism, why we need fanatasy, Tolkien's works and how relevent they are to life, etc etc etc...Writing about Tolkien would make doing that extended essay so much FUN! (my next hurdle: getting my english teacher to approve my topic so i can write about it). I've learned soo much from reading Tolkien it's really incredible. I also learn so much from all of you guys here on the 'Downs. Thank you everyone, for all your eloquent ideas and insight. You've taught me more than you can ever imagine. ^_^

[ April 24, 2002: Message edited by: Jessica Jade ]

[Araen]

If it wasn't for Fantasy books I would not be tyoing this right now. In the last couple of years I was so buillied, so teased that I became very depressed and I wanted to kill myself. smilies/eek.gif The only way I managed to cheer myself up was to read or to slip into Pern or Middle Earth. I would pop in for tea at Bilbo's or stand on the sands at Fort Weyr.
Now I'm homeschooled, perfectly happy and fitting in quite nicely.... my life no longer sucks.

[Amarinth]

hi rosa! i'm glad you asked the question smilies/smile.gif

tolkien's works have indeed influenced me greatly in my life, especially in my personal struggle to cope with, understand and participate in the political tapestry that so painfully agitates the state of our nation every now and then. ever since i read lotr, a space in my psyche has been occupied by something precious, something that has helped me "see" through all the upheaval, uncertainty and stark hopelessness of our own society, to see into a future in it. that something i call "a hobbit's chance" and it is through such determined hope that i have survived still full of goodwill and passion for my native land.

i remember when i was in college a long time ago, a student leader was assassinated in our campus. in his grave are written the epithet, immortal words of frodo at the grey havens: "for it is so...some will lose it...so that others may keep it." i cried a lot then, and since then a shadow of bittersweet sadness passes me by when i come across the name of frodo. but knowing frodo and knowing this leader made me understand and appreciate so much the sacrifice of many, mostly unseen, "ringbearers" in our country.

frodo lives!

[Birdland]

...way back then, teachers looked at girls in different ways than they looked at boys. I will never forget a world history teacher telling me that it was a pity I wasn't a boy since I had such a fine mind (Growl!). - Child of the 7th Age
Ah, those fixed gender roles of the 60s. How well I remember. When I was in kindergarten each child got the chance to pick the book for "story time". When my turn came I picked "Robin Hood". Wonderful Robin Hood! With his Merry Men and Maid Marian, living a life of adventure in the Sherwood, outfoxing that nasty ol' Sheriff of Nottingham. Even at the age of 6, Birdie was hardwired to love stories of adventure in days of yore.

My teacher told me I should pick another book, because Robin Hood was a "story for little boys."

Welll! You don't think a little thing like gender stereotypes stopped Birdie, do you? I GOT my Robin Hood, believe you me!

Sadly, C. of 7.A., as we grow older and "life happens", the wounds and fate of Frodo becomes much easier to understand and appreciate. Our own failures and losses become a source of empathy for the struggles of beloved characters, and we know all too well that even when you win, you can lose.

[KingCarlton]

Whoa! You people really know your fantasy…….. but you live it too.
I can’t really say that the books of fantasy and literature have made any differences, neither redeeming nor condescending, in the way I live my life. I have always read such books with a sense of wonder and excitement that can only be available through escapism. Never have I felt the need to find consolation from reading a book. It has been a cherished hobby, when time could be set aside to enjoy, nothing more.
All I have learnt from these is the art of writing such tales well, something which I am much interested in pursuing as an alternative career.

I have never held my judgments in life in accordance to any fictional story. True that such tales reflect life and history, but fiction is to be read as just that, especially fantasy.
Pure escapism for a while and back to reality again.

I withdraw MY unwarranted, partisan observations of the other people here.

Know Peace!

[ April 28, 2002: Message edited by: KingCarlton ]

[Birdland]

If it wasn't for Fantasy books I would not be tyoing this right now. In the last couple of years I was so buillied, so teased that I became very depressed and I wanted to kill myself.
Araen - There are probably more than a few of us who know what you're talking about. smilies/smile.gif

Having an older brother who is a high-function autistic (Except in the 60s and 70s there was no such thing as autism, you were just "weird"), and me being blessed with a last name that rhymes with - well, a certain type of plumbing - was enough to make me a target throughout most of my good ol' school days.

It does get better, though. Much better. Life and love, experiences and good times, (and yes, some bad, but you'll have good friends to see you through them) are all out there waiting.

School may seem like Mordor right now, but you'll get to Rivendell and Hobbiton, Lorien and Gondor before long. Hang in there.

And yes, King Carlton, I did escape into the worlds of Middle Earth, the jungles of India, the forest and fields of Camelot, and other places, to get me through the "bad times". smilies/tongue.gif

[Child of the 7th Age]

The responses to this thread are amazing. So many individuals with different experiences and different reactions,yet many of them speak to the impact of these writings on their personal life.

Birdland-- ..as we grow older and "life happens", the wounds and fate of Frodo becomes much easier to understand and appreciate. Our own failures and losses become a source of empathy for the struggles of beloved characters, and we know all too well that even when you win, you can lose.

This expreses it much better than I could say!

KingCarlton--

..for I have always found people enjoying books for their reading value and that only; and never in my experience has anyone been ridiculed or been regarded in doubt for reading fictional books..

I'm not sure I actually said that-- about ridicule I mean. (At least I didn't mean to.)I never faced ridicule for reading Tolkien. But, in a working class neighborhood in Detroit, it was simply not the norm. Way back in 1963 when I first read these books, most people had never even heard of Tolkien or Lord of the Rings, at least most students in school. There were no huge racks of fantasy books in the stores such as exists today; titles like these simply had not been written, the only exception being something like "She" or the Tarzan series. Star Trek was just starting (and then they pulled it off the air!) There were no web sites with postings or people writing fanfiction or attending conventions or buying books on e-bay. So it was definitely a way for a child, especially a girl who'd been told she had a certain limited road to follow in life, to assert independence and define identity.


Sorry to say that I cannot sympathise with you as I find your over-abundant faith in a story disturbing

"Over-abundant faith"??? Whoops! Are you talking about my use of Tolkien as a way to define identity in adolescence, or my feelings about the book and central character in helping me get through a year of grieving? I've already addressed the former above, but here goes on the latter.... As far as grieving goes, reading Tolkien and feeling some solace and identification is just one part of a complicated puzzle that lasted over a year. Friends and family were the most essential part of that puzzle, but there were times when friends and family just weren't there--either physically or emotionally. In that sense, it was a way of escape for a very hard time, and is that so very awful? It's not the be-all or end-all of my existence, but it is one part of who I am. There are, of course, many other parts, but since this site discusses Tolkien I tend not to get into my life as a librarian, college teacher, lover of the outdoors, observent Jew, writer of poetry and articles, mother, wife, friend, etc., since these would surely be of less interest on this site.

King Carleton-- Never have I felt the need to find consolation from reading a book.

If a humble hobbit may disagree with a geat king, I must say that I feel that finding consolation is one very legitimate way of responding to literature. And I do feel that Tolkien's writings can and should be viewed as literature. I can't believe that, sometime when you felt down, you never turned to a poem you loved and then walked away feeling a bit better. Reading Tolkien is no different than this! It doesn't mean that you have "over-abundant faith in a story". In another context, you may even criticize aspects of that story--I have done this with Tolkien and my students in classroom situations when I have my academic hat on. But, for that one moment in time, you can identify with the book and characters on some basic level,and it does bring healing and growth. sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[dragongirlG]

Wow, this is a great thread everyone!

In sixth grade and last year, when I was a stupid, shallow little girl, I was very, very depressed and going through one of those "I hate the world" stages...in my diary, I wrote about suicide, how nobody appreciated me, and those shallow little middle school love life problems. I was going through serious emotional turmoil with loneliness, friends' betrayals, and no one understanding me. Reading fantasy gave me a shelter that I had not discovered, especially Harry Potter because the characters were going through the same teenage things that I was. It let my mind go off into another world while going through a horrid class of P.E. and other things, and definitely helped me grow a lot and be more tolerant of things. Fantasy has helped me grow emotionally, made me more mature, and discover my passion: writing.

[ April 24, 2002: Message edited by: dragongirlG ]

[Thinhyandoiel]

Well well well! I am enjoying reading this thread. And what an interesting paper it sounds like its going to be! I wish you well on that!

Now for my answer.
Fantasy has always been an escape for me. Whenever I was alone, there would be my little world in which I had herds of horses, falcons, wolves and dragons to manage. There were no humans, and I liked that. I was their creator, and each herd leader was my own personal vassal. This world existed when I was 5-9, and indeed it exists even now. I have simply released my herds from my service so to speak, as they have served their purpose, which was my personal escape from the pressures and tauntings of other children. After that, grade four and five came. I had found some valuable friends which released my hold on my worlds as escape routes, and I began to live solely in this world. Life was fine, I read purely for information and enjoyment, having found a great interest in Greek and Roman mythology and also in the cosmos and in archaelogy. I became quite a bookworm, and was even called the 'human dictionary' because I never spelt anything wrong. In grade six we read a book called "Bride to Terebithia" in which two young children make their own world in the forest behind their homes. To enter, you needed to swing across a small ravine and inside it was filled with many wondrous things that had me recalling my own world. It was a pleasant reminder, but I had no use for it. Yet.
Junior High came in which I was forced to call upon it again. I was not considered 'popular' and in fact I did not, nor will I ever, give a damn about what I am considered to be. However, my anger and my frustrations with what my friends had become had to be ventilated. I was hurt, in a way, because they would no longer talk to me. But they, in my world, I had banished (even though they had never been there). It was a pleasant thought. I, however, grew out of that world once more. And I made a new one. Why? I felt that my old world was too juvenile, and I wanted it to remain a memory of my childhood. My new world consisted of Faeries and Wizards and Goblins and I was the hero. If say, Cristina was starting to really annoy me (as she always has and always will), I would paste her face on one of the Goblins heads and prepare for a massive hunt. I know this wasn't the best way to deal with my frustrations and feelings, and I know now that it would not serve me as well as it did then. Now, after junior high, high school, in which I am presently enrolled, came. I had discovered I have a talent for writing. Indeed my best subject was and still is English. After I read "Urshurak" which I borrowed from my mentor uncle, I was enthralled once more. I began to search for fantasy novels of any kind, and still I had not heard of Tolkien. In grade 11 I was wandering the library during a spare and came across the Hobbit. I recalled my sister had read it in Grade 6, and I was so befuddled as to what a Hobbit was. The rest of that discovery is history. But I find my current use for fantasy is not only escape, but for learning and discovery. It is now also an art. Having started to write my own fantasy, I now escape into that world in which I have no role. I am merely an observer and that suits me just fine. In this place I use my characters as a way to deal with serious issues. Indeed racism has been a very serious issue with me as I am Metis (half native, half french) and I have noticed I unintentionally have incorporated this into my story. I have no plans to remove it, as this 'place' seems like a good place to resolve my own feelings towards the issue.

That is all I feel like telling. You may use whatever you find useful, though I doubt you will. If you do, though, glad to be of service! smilies/biggrin.gif Good luck!

[Amarinth]

Amarinth – Strangers things have come my way, but your post beats them all.


hmmm, pray elaborate king smilies/smile.gif my apologies for the overdramatic post nonetheless, but geez i guess i was dispirited when i wrote it and unfortunately it is true. it does sound strange looking at it now. what can i say, i'm no westerner and conversational english isn't easy for me smilies/biggrin.gif

[Wormtongue]

Well now, hroom hroom, where shall I begin...?
When I had first read "The Hobbit" I was in 7th grade and I had NO IDEA what I was in store for. The results of reading this material shaped my life in a grand way. I identified with something for the first time and was able to adopt a personality akin to the positve and noble characteristics of the wonderous beings in the books. I gained knowledge, courage, and great stamina from my life altering reading experience. All of life's trivialities became easily dealt with, quickley surmounted, and cast aside. I was constantly picked on in school, but after gleaning from the courage of the small folk, I finally stood up and fought back. I kicked the offender's *** royally, and all was well. I was kind of an outcast, being one of those "heavy metal, long-haired wierdos" in High School (1982-1986) and finally found some like-minded individuals that I could relate to. Yes, they had all read "Hobbit/LotR's" and yes, it was an emotional ground-breaking like no other.
I've not changed, my physical characteristics at age 33 aren't much different from 20 years ago (I look like Andrew W.K., the singer), but for some reason, with the advancement of the years, my stereotypes have been discarded for the nobility and chivalry are now ASSOCIATED with the long hair (Aragorn does NOT sport a buzz-cut). Instead of looking at the hair, thinking "scumbag loser", I'm allowed to be myself. After a short conversation, the hair actually adds to the air of medieval nobility and chivalry and the originality of it all lends one to shine. Shine I will, thanks to the Magic of Tolkien. If I read something from John Grisham or Steven King, it's just a story. When I read Tolkien, Silverberg, Howard or Jordan, my vitality soars and my codes are strengthened. My will is steel, and all is well. smilies/wink.gif

[NyteSky]

It's good to know that others have been affected by fantasy in the same ways I am. I started in... oh about 3rd grade when I switched schools. So I was always the quiet one with the huge book. smilies/wink.gif I don't know how i would've survived those years without it.
Fantasy is a portable vacation, but better. It can take me out of the Psychology class that's boring me to death and I can hunt the Wilds from dragonback. Endless possibilities. And there's always hope. No matter how many rings of power the almighty Sauron crafts there's always that slim chance of a tiny hobbit overthrowing him and restoring the world.
From a purely logical point of view it's proved invaluable with school. (I'm still trapped in highschool sad to say) Vocabulary, spelling (mine's still far from perfect but you should have seen it before) writing etc.
Most importantly it stretches one's imagination, more than any other genre seems to. It shows me things I never would have thought of, lets me see things from the other guy's point of view, takes me places long forgotten. I owe a great debt to fantasy and its writers. The world would be a barren desert without it, devoid of beauty and imagination and hope.

[Bramblerose Gamgee-Took]

Fantasy helped me as an escape. This year my friends became very cold towards me, started talking behind my back, literally behind my back, and doing things without me, like inviting everyone except for me to there parties. I dealt with it by playing scenes from LOTR in my head. But soon I was falling behind in class and just gave up working. But its all worked out now, because next term I am starting a new school, and I am really excited

[Tigerlily Gamgee]

I posted my thoughts earlier, but I must say...
WOW, this has been an excellent thread to read! It makes me really realize why I come to this board to post and communicate with everyone smilies/smile.gif I can relate to almost everything being said!

[Nar]

Yes, there's something about The Lord of the Rings that fits into a depression like a key into a lock. Walk in where you didn't dare go, even though it was a place that ruled your mind ... then walk out again. It's one of the things this book does well.

And, Bramblerose, NyteSky, Araen, others: you know you'd rather be one of those people who break their hearts over old friends instead of trading up. You know you'd rather chase the things you love than please the professional brats. You're coming up in the world in a far more important way. Welcome!

[Amarinth]

KingCarlton -- ok, ok, no need to elaborate, i get you now after rereading your post. if you mean that it sounds strange to you that a fiction supposed to be enjoyed as a piece of literature has had such a profound political impact to me, in the same way that it has seen child e.g. through some personal crisis, then i understand it to be within the context of our separate experiences.

i assume (i hope correctly) that you live in a first world country, and like many posts here at bd from people of the same provenance yours speak from the perspective of a more or less ordered and working society. i've had the greatest pleasure of reading all your and other excellent posts, and i am all the better for it because i feel there are people here such as you whom people like me can learn a great deal from.

which is exactly my point. there are many external sources such as this one can learn from - social interaction, research, heck movies, and of course, reading. for people like me in a society such as we have in our country, we are compelled to learn from the outside not only for self-advancement and pleasure, but sometimes, for survival as a race. why not depend on ourselves, look internally (that we do too), you may ask, but you see, we here are all part of the same compromised system. so we sometimes have to look outside of ourselves for direction, for slef-criticism, for hope.

the power of literature as a tool for catalyzing change is a concrete one, moreso in our country. when our country was under colonial rule in the last century, a powerful liberation movement was stimulated by the incendiary novels of one man writing of the cruelty and oppressiveness of the colonial regime. this man, who became our national hero, was inspired to this near-suicidal profession after reading stowe's "uncle tom's cabin". strange, i give you that!

now what has that got to do with my post and yours? smilies/biggrin.gif literature is a powerful tool, and seldom do i find myself in the position where i have to defend some conviction i have derived in it. i reiterate that in lotr (not fantasy per se, but these novels) i personally found an ideal of hope in frodo resonant with someone i looked up to politically when i was in college. has this helped me through a lot? yes: finding my own grain of truth in "a hobbit's chance" has annointed me with hope despite the bleak future constantly forecast for my country.

to be truthful, i was a little conscious after your post that i came off a little too spaced out, cooky, mixing "reality" with "fantasy". if did, not only with you but with the others, then let me be the better person and be gratified for your more balanced and light-hearted appreciation of it. for having the better society in which you can scarce "get off" (spookily as me) on fantasy and fiction in general, i am glad for you.

peace!

[Child of the 7th Age]

KingCarlton--

I don't know if your ears are burning, but I just couldn't get your post out of my head, not your individual response to my words, but the general feelings you expressed about fantasy:

If I sound rude or harsh, well I just speak my mind. I have never had my judgments in life in accordance to any fictional story. True that such tales reflect life and history, but fiction is to be read as just that, especially fantasy. Pure escapism for a while and back to reality again.

I guess there is something in this small hobbit heart that strongly disagrees. When I reread this thread, I was struck by how different everyone's experiences have been: school problms, concerns for family, disappointments from friends, and the need to find hope in times when much seems sad. Different ages, different circumstances, different cultures and countries--yet we share one common thing. Each of us read a book that, at some point, touched our lives on more than just an intellectual level.

Yes, it was a work of fiction, even fantasy. And, yes, in some sense, it offered an escape. But I believe some words carry the power to change people, their attitudes and feelings, and how they view the world. To me, Tolkien is an example of precisely this.

Tolkien understood that we have lost so much in this modern era. We no longer have the capacity to believe in unseen myths the way our ancestors did. We have forfeited so much of the magic. So what is now left to console us and help us reach out beyond the little worlds that each of us inhabit? Certainly, people themselves are the most precious gift that has been given to us, and, for some of us, at least sometimes, we may sense the presence of a Creator. But there is, I believe, something else we can share: what Tolkien called "subcreation." And even those of us who are not so gifted to actually do the subcreation can at least participate in what others have done.

Without art and music and words in written or storytelling form, we would be so much poorer. I can not fully comprehend the experiences Amarinth had when she went to college and saw a fellow student, whom she admired, die because of political realities. For the most part, my life has been in a more protected, stable environment. Yet I do understand how she could read Tolkien and come away with some hope for the future. And when I first read her post, I was moved by what she said.

In some parts of life, things seem very hard and, in others, we manage to bump along with fewer roadblocks. But all of us have experiences at times when we need to find meaning that extends beyond our individual existence. Art and music and words carry some of that meaning.

In your own post, you say fantasy is "pure escapism and back to reality again". I believe this is true, but with one important difference. When you return, you are changed just a bit from having read and participated in that subcreation. It may be just a fantasy world with Elves and Hobbits and Ents, but this subcreation carries messages about who we are, our values, and how we should respond when challenges abound. And because Tolkien is such an amazing writer, the messages he brings are necessarily profound. This is why I can read and reread his book many times. And this is why I have found my life enriched by Tolkien's portrayal of the small hero who makes his way not by prowess but by obedience and by his conviction that every victory carries a price.

I think you will probably disagree with what I've said, but that is ok. There's certainly room for more than one way of looking at things. But, for me, this way makes the most sense. sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[Jessica Jade]

I have never had my judgments in life in accordance to any fictional story. True that such tales reflect life and history, but fiction is to be read as just that, especially fantasy. Pure escapism for a while and back to reality again.

I definitely disagree, King Carlton. In essence, the world of Middle Earth is a complicated mythology, out of which the story of Lord of the Rings grows and on which it is deeply dependent. As mythology, it serves two purposes: first, to entertain; second, to teach the reader something about himself or herself or about humanity as a whole. While certain parallels could be (and have often been) drawn between the conflict in The Lord of the Rings and the national conflicts of the Second World War, Tolkien neither approved of nor explicitly used allegory per se. The story of The Fellowship of the Ring was conceived before Europe became embroiled in the war, and its basis in The Silmarillion was begun far earlier.

The similarities between the events of the real world and Tolkien's stories of Middle Earth arise out of Tolkien's desire to reflect truths about the real world (from a Christian perspective): the fallen nature of man, who fights with himself instead of fighting the true enemy; the inevitable fading of beautiful things and the disappearance of unspoilt nature; the evil results that come from using evil means, even with good intentions; and the saving power of courage, humility and simplicity of heart, as personified in the hobbits. By weaving these elements into a well-told story, Tolkien does more than entertain; he throws into relief important ideas that can become obscured or forgotten in the real world.

There is nothing wrong with just a light-hearted appreciation for Tolkien books, but that doesn't mean that there can't be more. Who we are is a culmination of our life experiences and what we've learned from them.Naturally, everyone is affected differently by a certain book. When you read, you think of it in context with what you've lived through, and you bring that experience into what you're reading...sometimes an event that takes place in a book hits very close to home, because you've "been there" and know how it feels. It's the emotional connection one feels which gives them a deeper appreciation for something. I find that i definitely relate to the Tolkien books, and i read the books with such moral conviction that I cannot help be be moved by how relevant it is to the way i think about life. So, King Carlton, there is absolutely nothing wrong about seeing fiction just for what it is, but that doesn't mean fiction/fantasy should be seen only that way.

Words are definitely very powerful tools....the biggest lie i have ever heard is that old sing-song rhyme:
"Sticks and stones can break my bones but words can never hurt me." Blah! Can any statement be more blatantly false? Sticks and stones can break my bones, but
words can tear my soul to pieces.

[ April 25, 2002: Message edited by: Jessica Jade ]

[Lomelinde]

Wow. Yet another one of those incredible,thought-provoking threads. I must say that I was very moved while reading some of these posts, and was actually nodding my head as I related to the reasons described for turning to fantasy.
How has my life been affected by fantasy? In one word, magic. The magic draws me in and strings me along for the ride, transporting me to places never seen, allows me to converse with people never known, and forces me to open my heart and mind to new ideas. This innermost longing that I possess, for the magic of the lost realms; this sets me apart from most other people with whom I come in contact daily, my peers and my family. While I used to think that this wish made me an oddball and a sort of freak- keep in mind that high-schoolers don't consider deep discussions about classic literature and fantasy "normal"- I now realize finally that it is precisely this which makes me unique; this is how I make myself feel important and grounded. I might not be a scholar, and I don't have the insight or knowledge that some of you here possess, but I realize now that that's OK; I have an appreciation for the great minds and the great works of literature that came from those minds, and that's what matters.
In fact, that is what I tell myself whenever I feel left out, or not outgoing enough, or just plain frustrated because I don't have friends who share my love of the arts. I am an 11th grader, and finding peers who also hold this appreciation is next to impossible. So I turn to fantasy, and yet again the magic grabs my soul and demands my heart; it is my escape and my passion. Fantasy (especially Tolkien) has also sparked my interest in the written word, and my love for language will always follow me, wherever the magic may lead me. This is how fantasy has touched me; through the magic, the wonder and the sense of awe I get whenever I pick up Homer, or Tolkien, or Shakespeare. The emotions it invokes in me, and also the reverence I feel for the greater scheme of things.

The ancient legends shimmer...the magic beckons.

[Enedhil]

I only wish I'd paid more attention when I was a kid!

When I was little, my sister and I would watch programmes like dungeons and dragons, and play it out in the garden. We pretended there was a gradon in our garden....*sigh*
I once had my own little bow and arrow that i'd made myself, with wool as the bow string! Took it everywhere on holiday with me...and got quite good at it, considering it was poor craftsmanship and I was, what, 6 or 7 maybe and knee-high to a hobbit. smilies/smile.gif

I didnt actually read LOTR until Christmas just past. It's a pity I didnt hold onto that childhood wonder in fantasy or read Tolkien at an earlier age. It would have helped me through a lot of difficult times...namely school! (Araen, I understand)

But no. I am here now, and that's what counts. Things in the past have happened for a reason, though what it is I sure as hell don't know!
Now i'm making up for severe lost time, and I'm slowly trudging through the Silm. Fancinating stuff.

My reply not as deep or profound as what you have come up with, but these are my thoughts, and hope they don't sound too foolish.

Anyway, I'm off for blueberry muffins and stories by the fire.

[ April 25, 2002: Message edited by: Enedhil ]

[Auriel Haevasawen]

This is a rather intense thread and I don't know if what I can add is of any value to your paper but I will try to explain how Tolkien's writing helped me.
I grew up in a tiny hamlet on the border between Northumberland and Durham (counties in the very north of England) and therefore had no playmates outside of school. This is not so much of a problem when you are a small child but as I reached my teenage years I discovered I had poor social skills and rather eccentric behaviour. (Added to this the usual hang ups that teenagers have). I have always been a reader and an artist and began reading CSLewis, then Alan Garner and finally Tolkien, beginning with the Hobbit. I would walk down the lane from my parents house and sit on a stile in the wood or by the stepping stones in the river and read on spring or summer days. I soon slid into Middle Earth and allowed my imagination free rein in a world where I was not bullied for 'talking posh', 'being clever', 'unfashionable','ugly','odd'or any of the usual. I was never sucidal. (One of my friends (I did make a handful) was and eventually succeeded) and I think it was the ability to 'lose myself in a book' as they used to say that kept me sane. I never gave up because my 'friends' in Middle Earth never gave up. I would go to university and stuff. I would do the things I wanted with my life. I can't say my inner strength comes completely from Middle Earth but it helped. It gave me an escape when life was tricky, like some people use religion but not as intensely. I am now happy with my eccentricity, using my imagination to earn my money (but never writing fantasy because that would be wrong)and with a nice circle of friends who accept me. I don't know if that is any use to you in your paper, it's very general but there you go. The only problem is I rather miss the Fellowship now I feel like they sailed away to the Grey Havens when I was 19 and left me like Sam to cope alone. Luckily I do very well.

[Manelwen]

My grandmother was the most precious person in my life, I regarded her as my role model for she was great in many ways. So loving and caring and I could never imagine life without her. Until she died. After her funeral, I had to move 3000 miles away, to Edmonton. I had no friends, no one to speak with and school was worse than it had ever been in my life. I stayed in the library of that little middle-school and read, and read with no real desire to make friends. I had a girl come up to me and give me a book that she had told me was excellent. It was 'The Eagle and the Raven' by Pauline Gedge. Not quite fantasy, but fiction based on historical facts (Wonderful to get into if you love celt history-Queen Boudicca and that stuff) I loved it. I went in search of more fantasy novels until I stumbled across The Hobbit. That was the first pure fantasy novel I ever read. I hungered for more and went out searching.

Those books pulled me through a great crisis in my life because of all the diversities and perils the characters went through were in some way, what I was going through (Minus the dragons, elves, dwarves and Gryffyns and any other mythical beast I have not mentioned). When I left that school, I was a different person with different goals. I went back to my old town and all of my old friends told me how much I had changed. Even my hobbies have been changed. I used to be the typical airhead. All clothes, make-up and boys. Now, I am more concerned with writing, drawing and reading because I realized I wanted to make my own book. I am proud to be called a 'Gamer' and I know that being accepted isn't all that good; being yourself is the best.

I don't think it was specifically Fantasy that rescued me from a terrible time in my life, but it was the only thing I would read. When I left the Middleschool, I was given a book by the teachers for my keen reading skills. The name of the book was The Mists of Avalon by Marion Zimmer Bradely, another book that was oozing with delicious celtic history and myths that were from the very lands my family came from.

I don't mean to pick on you. KingCarlton, for I do admire you, but I cannot help but feel a little at odds with your thread... Many people have different ways to cope with the pain and problems of their lives. Shrinks may say it is unhealthy, teachers and parents think it is the best thing for a person to do. Fantasy may be a way to tell a person a true story in a way that will not drag them down to face the realities of life and in today's day and age, it has become harder to bare. As I said before, magic and myth has been leeched out through computers and science and has destroyed what hope there is. For fantasy is the stuff hope thrives and grows on. I am constantly reading stale textbooks, utterly depressing newspapers and grim biographies; once in a blue moon, a nice thick and juicy fantasy novel makes me feel better again. So whether it be kick boxing, running, reading or writing, they are our ways of expressing and getting rid of all those painful thoughts inside of us.

This is my longest post yet. smilies/biggrin.gif I am so proud of myself.

-Manelwen

[Thinhyandoiel]

I found I have recently (just) come up with a solid example for my answer. One hour ago my parents started another argument, and as arguments go, there were words said that I could have lived without. Shortly after the fight began, I found that I was suddenly in the basement, where I am right now, with The Two Towers in my hand. I began to read, and found myself laughing over Legolas and Gimli's constant quarreling, in particular Helm's Deep, which was what I wished my parents would be more like. Reality, however, tells me that will never happen. But for that space of 45 minutes the shouts and swearing, the banging and slamming of doors was gone. I can tell now they have gone into that silent treatment parent are wont to give eachother after becoming so infuriated that words will not serve. But, for the majority of that time I did not hear the worst part of it. The last 15 minutes was spent reading over my own fantasy work, and losing myself again in my own characters. It is a pleasant reprieve, I must say, from what I normally would hear. Listening to them fight I feel torment and fear, often I find myself just sitting in a dark corner staring at nothing, silent and angry. This was my first experience of using Tolkien in particular as a reprieve, and escape if you will, from a personal hell. I must admit it feels much better than what I had been accustomed to.

[ElanorGamgee]

Hey, Jessica, I'm in IB too! I'm not getting the full diploma, so I don't have to write the 4,000 word essay, but I'm still testing out of several classes. Excellent essay choice!

Back on topic: I haven't had to go through any particularly hard times since I've started reading Tolkien, but it sure would have helped a little while back. I was going through a lot of insecurity about my friendships, and I really could have used the escape rather than moping all the time. Fortunately, nothing like that is happening to me now. Reading does help me when I'm really stressed out over schoolwork, though, which does happen quite often.

This is a really good thread!

[KingCarlton]

Greetings People!

In response:

Amarinth – I withdraw MY unwarranted, partisan observations.

Child of the 7th Age – I withdraw all of MY unwarranted, partisan observations concerning you and of fantasy literature in general.


Know Peace!

[ April 28, 2002: Message edited by: KingCarlton ]

[KingCarlton]

Jessica Jade – I with draw MY unwarranted, partisan observations made in response to your posts.

Know Peace!

[ April 28, 2002: Message edited by: KingCarlton ]

[KingCarlton]

Thinhyandoiel – I with draw MY unwarranted, partisan observations.

Lomelinde – Beautifully put there. And you don’t ramble about how reading fiction saved you tortured soul, but as to what it is and the magic and wonder reading such
Lore holds for one. Exactly what fiction should be experienced as.

Manelven – Yours so far has been the most expressive, well constructed post on this thread so far. You are a writer, indeed! I have no objection to you being at odds with me on this topic, as people with common interests also find minor differences.
From what I gather of your experience I come to this conclusion. That you had suffered a grievous mental as well as spiritual loss, your world so to speak was in disarray and you were left in a state of confusion with a desperate need to connect with something to accommodate the void. Fortunate you were that the connection was the medium of books, as books are the best form of personal entertainment and gratification. And the course reading books takes in one’s life is exactly how it happened for you and is the same for everyone else.

Eventually your alienation from the real world and increased discovery of newer and more engaging literature made you subconsciously connect to the stories and desperately long to be a part of them, to interact with them, to jump in and help, or fight or enjoy the festivities.
I know the feeling all too well.
As these connections transpired they also filled you with a sense of belonging, the kind that every good writer should instill in his work. And in your case and as well as with anyone who suffered similar or worse fates, you took this connection to a new level, almost to a belief and conviction that these books are making a profound impact in your lives. Which they do, but in your experience is it a matter of redemption and illumination.

But the truth here, my friend, is that any medium you chose, would have had the same effect on you because your being was desperate for a connection, to make sense of the loss suffered and to fill the void left behind. As you so well put it together in the last lines of the last verse, which makes me wonder are you a member of other forums, namely ones on combat-sports, music and religion? smilies/smile.gif


As I conclude this series of posts, I find that I have called upon the collective wrath of mostly, if not exclusively, the ladies on this forum. Is it because that the female of the human species is emotionally attuned at a higher level than me, the male?
That your sex is the one that can find the deep rooted emotional connection that a fictional character written as to endure great hardships in his quest offers?

Know Peace!

[ April 28, 2002: Message edited by: KingCarlton ]

[Thalionyulma]

This is one powerful thread... smilies/biggrin.gif
Allow me share my two cent's worth, simple though my words will be...

What effects did fantasy have? Well, like most who have posted here, I too can relate to those reasons.. as like any adolescent, I went throught tough times, too. And its those times that shape you, or break you.

In these times I find that the world can be very cruel and cold. Fantasy can give one a scene of "what could be". The setting need not be ME, or Pern, or Star Trek Voyager, or King Arthur's Court for that matter. It also reminds me that Man has virtues - no matter how bad the world seems to be. That like in a fantasy book, there is good out there. There are people who are heroes, willing or not.

I believe if man did not fantasize, mankind would not have "grown". If flying or going to the moon was JUST a fantasy, how could airplanes and space shuttles have been made? Or many other inventions, for that matter... It may have started like a wild idea... stories of flying, of fantasy. If a country under colonial rule for 300 years did not "fantasize" of freedom... would it have ever known democracy?

In my personal opinion, without fantasy Man would be just like any other animal... or plant. Thinking ONLY of his basic needs, fighting ONLY for territory. (No I'm not mistaking fantasy for ideals and such.)

What was the effect of fantasy on me? A lot. It has given me dreams.

King Carlton, I like non-fiction too, but not as much as I like fantasy! smilies/tongue.gif

[ April 26, 2002: Message edited by: Thalionyulma ]

[Gayalondiel]

This is already a quite heavy thread, but i'm going to stick my oar in anyway as theses are things i've never been able to tell anyone before, as it seems a bit silly to me. anyway, here goes...

Tolkien's writings have affected me quite profoundly in two major ways. Firstly was that i was always a loner as a child after my best friend moved away, i was good at work and grades but not so good at friendship. and although i was writing music, it always seemed about forth-rate to me. Reading fantasy books in general gave my imagination a bit of a kick-start, and also took a focus for my imagination so i wasn't always off in my own world and began to see things, including friendships, in a more realistic light. And recently my compositions inspired by LOTR have suprised me, i write things that i had no idea were there.
The second way is much harder to talk about, so forgive me if this is garbled. My grandmother died when I was 12, and from that point on my grandfather declined. I understand now what i couldn't see then, that the grief was too much for him to bear. but for a few years it seemed to my eyes that he was picking up, although i'm not sure now that he was. Anyway, january of two years ago he got very ill and went into a coma. after about a month he began picking up again, but one day he woke up enough to remove his life support apparatus himself, and died shortly after. (I know this seems completely irrelevent to tolkien, but i'm getting there). For a long time i just couldn't accept why he did that. It wasn't until i read the chapter on beren and luthien in the sil last year that i realised he'd died of a broken heart. Although he was in a coma for 8 weeks, he dies on the day of my grandmother's funeral. reading about luthien's sacrifice for beren i realised that was why my grandfather died, he couldn't be without his wife any more

crikey, sorry that was so long and kind of irrelevant. but i needed to say it. smilies/smile.gif

[Amarinth]

Amarinth – Am I to understand that having the privilege of living in a better country than your own (in your assumption), I am incapable of reading into the true meaning and intent of a story. That I miss out entirely on the hidden level of emotional content that the author keeps at certain aspects of his writing. And those here who share equally the privileges as mine (again in you assumption) are also at such a loss.
Midway through, your post appears to loose all purpose of meaning for me and I skip to the end to find an admission on you part, to your folly. As well as a sort of patronization that was not necessary.

(sigh) no matter how gracious and humble i try to phrase my answer, this is what i get smilies/smile.gif please reread the posts: i impute nothing to you as you suggest above, though you seem to have no problem imputing a lot to me. and humility is never folly to people who have a healthy dose of it!

for my seeming to patronize, again it is the language barrier for me. looking at your reply i believe you shouldn't mind that. if you can't take it, don't dish it, as my gaffer says!

child-thanks for the kind words. i'm happy to know you're a teacher--that you are!

peace! smilies/biggrin.gif

[Amarinth]

BTW, nothing important really, but did anyone else notice how all my posts in this thread are numbered 73?

BARROW-WIGHT, help! don't wanna be a haunting spirit forever, hu-hu-hu...

[Amarinth]

OH PHOOEY, now i get it! all my posts get updated with each new post! i never noticed that before!

BARROW-WIGHT, sorry...

[KingCarlton]

Amarinth – I withdraw MY unwarranted, partisan observations.

Thalionyulma – I fear that you have posed quite a conundrum for me here with these very strong and very valid points that may cause me some duress in furthering my argument on this thread. Yet all is not lost for me yet, as you see the debate I am taking up to my sentimentally aroused friends here is of the presumption of a piece of fiction being used as a means of self analysis and growth, in relation to the fictional journeys and achievements of their beloved character of imagination.
Your points of fantasy as a means of a longing for freedom and exploration really blew me away. I am waylaid by that observation, having no will in me to oppose them.

But hey, this view does strengthen my argument on another thread where I am trying to convince people that all thought in terms of a desire is fantasy, all thought derived from that desire, assimilated and noted down is fiction and all fiction derived from that desire is fantasy. So all fiction is fantasy; and fantasy is not a part of fiction but instead fiction is part of fantasy. Fantasy covers thought, dreams, nightmares, writings, verbal tales and realized ideals.

Your personal opinion about fantasy is acknowledged and shared. Dreams are deeds that are not yet realized. But dwell on them too long and you will no longer have need for reality.

Know Peace!

[ April 28, 2002: Message edited by: KingCarlton ]

[Mister Underhill]

When personal insults and dripping sarcasm start showing up in posts, moderator intervention can't be far behind.

We work hard to maintain a respectful tone here. That doesn't mean you can't express strong opinions or disagree -- just do it like adults.

This thread has generated a lot of raw emotions. Let's can the back-and-forth moving forward.

[Child of the 7th Age]

KingCarlton--OK, let's take this slowly and gently.

I was surprised when this thread engendered disagreement. Like you, I enjoy talking about and debating Tolkien. As your own post stated, "What point is it to have a forum if everyone agrees at everything.?" There are literally thousands of such topics amenable to debate. These range from questions of characterization and the search for sources to interpretation of myriad threads and ideas. The list is endless.

However, in this thread, Rosa Underhill raises a very different question. She asks:

...did fantasy books (Tolkien or otherwise) ever help you make it through a time of crisis?

She essentially invites us to share thoughts and insights about our own lives and personal response to the books. This is very different from questions of fact, characterization, or interpretation.

And this is where our communication breaks down. I have no trouble accepting that, in your own reading of the books and your own life, you have found no reason to turn to Tolkien or any other work of literature for consolation or "have not felt any sense of elation or empathy from reading either poems or works of any other writers including Tolkien." This is legitimate. The problem comes when you state that all others should adopt this exact same criterion in their personal response. It just doesn't work.

I have never walked in the shoes of any other poster on this site. I don't know the details of their lives, or for that matter of yours. Because of this limitation in my insight, any judgment I might make from outside on such personal matters is just not possible. It's bound to be flawed.

As far as gender differences go, you have a point that our society allows women to express their emotions much more easily than men. However, there were at least a few posters in the thread who were definitely male (lots of times, I can't tell.) Both Littlemanpoet and Wormtongue used words in their posts like "recovery and consolation" and one even stated "I identified with something for the first time and was able to adopt a personality akin to the positive and noble charcteristics of the wondrous beings in the books." Such sentiments are not too far from what I was saying so I don't think it's just a matter of gender differences.

We could get into debates on other related issues that you referred to at least briefly: why Tolkien wrote these works, exactly what he expected readers to take from them, the value of myth in pointing the way to underlying reality, the legitimacy of playfully adopting a point of view or moniker which stands outside concrete reality. Tolkien's Letters are some of the best sources for at least some of these topics. I do think we'd have different perspectives and feelings about many of these. So let's just agree to disagree and go on from there. sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[ April 26, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[ April 26, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Jessica Jade]

King Carlton--First of all-are you a hardcore realist or something? From reading your posts i've come to that conclusion.
I could go on eugolizing my appreciation for Tolkien until the world dies, and yet, I don't think that I could ever get you to remotely agree with me or see things how i see them. You have some good points, but we obviously think in VERY different ways. I am overwhelmed now because i don't think i could ever get you to understand why I (And many others here) find Tolkien books relevant to life. We probably will never see eye to eye, but I will post another reply to your questions/points later, when i have more time.

[ April 27, 2002: Message edited by: Jessica Jade ]

[Thinhyandoiel]

KingCarlton: I have had a debate with you before on another thread. That one was short-lived, as it was a matter of opinion and quite unimportant to what we were discussing. But you have hit me hard with your response:
Thinhyandoiel – I find it strange that something as trivial as one’s parents’ quarrel could put you in such a state of depression. No, I find it hilarious!
I suggest you not look to judge what I feel, as you do not, and obviously will not, understand me and my life. When my parents quarrel, it is not a trivial thing and I do not appreciate you finding humour in my distress. The seriousness of what happened last night in my house will not leave my mind and indeed my hands are shaking as I type. You judge much to quickly, I did not ask for it nor do I want it. I was simply responding to the question asked in the beginnning of the thread, hoping that perhaps some use could come out of it all for Rosa's paper. Your laughter was not intended, but neither do I ask for sympathy. Can I not share an experience like the rest here in peace? Or is that too much to ask. You say no one can have the same opinion, that we would all be robots if we did. While that is true, I would ask that you hold your tongue in some matters. I respected your difference of opinion before, as the old adage goes "I may not like what you have to say but I will defend your right to say it".
But I will not tolerate what you have said about the hilarious state of my parents fight. Also, I do not recall stating that I was depressed. Tormented, fear, anger and silence were the words I used. In this case, Carlton, I have no respect for what you have said.

[Thinhyandoiel]

I would also like to apologize to the moderators as my last response was quite off topic. It will not happen again. I am sorry.

[KingCarlton]

I withdraw MY unwarranted, partisan observations.

[ April 28, 2002: Message edited by: KingCarlton ]

[Auriel Haevasawen]

I for one woman on this site is glad of your strong opinions and intelligent devil's advocature but I did find it disconcerting when you found a girl's distress at her parent's rowing hilarious. Rowing parents is not hilarious when you're caught in the crossfire. OK we know leaning on Tolkien is not the answer but I found that rather flippent. Make your points and erudite comments but be considerate too. You had my respect until then.

[Amarinth]

king-- you surprise me with this personal attack, and i am tempted to return the favor. i know the barrow-wight will not approve, but i must answer your post anyway, despite my better judgment, because i cannot tolerate the personal nature of its content.

Amarinth – Would is suffice to say that in your gracious and humble view, I detected a hint of sarcasm towards my provenance. Unintended or not, I cannot say.
As for the language barrier you keep reiterating, well, you could have fooled me. I see no hint of inadequacy in your grasp of the English Language, yet it does suffer from all the bursts of emotional babbling that is quite difficult to follow.


yes i can write perfect english, thank you, but i cannot express myself as clearly or naturally as i would like, that is why i am sometimes difficult to follow. emotional babbling? (raises one eyebrow). this is just too LOW, especially for you, king.

However, I find from other sources that I may have been mistaken in my assumption of you. I understand now that you have never really taken part in a serious debate and that you easily resort to emotional breakdown and self pity, when seriously challenged upon.


this statement is so full of presumption i don't know WHERE to begin! let me just make it clear that my life does not revolve around the barrow-downs, SORRY! note that i'm member 500 yet still a haunting spirit PRECISELY because what little time i have for BD i use mostly to read off of it. emotional breakdown and pity?! it just AMAZES me how someone can have the NERVE to sit judgement on someone's emotional state the way you do! and so what if i hadn't participated in any serious debate? shall we do away with the other 2000-odd members who haven't also?

I was not aware that you were a woman nursing deep emotional scars that I may have reopened for you with my brusque and unfeeling opinions of you.


(raises BOTH eyebrows) YOU FLATTER YOURSELF. the strongest feelings i've had here on this thread are exasperation and indescribable disbelief!

What you need from this is a hug and warm smile. But I am afraid for that you need to look elsewhere.


shall we quote your line about being patronizing, king?

i was hoping to bow out of this thread with the same old neutrality i am used to, but i really cannot let this pass, king, not THIS CHEAP SHOT.

OK Barrow-wight, i'll wait for it...

[Mister Underhill]

I don't think there's a need for anyone to apologize.

KC: No one here has a problem with differing views -- but the Barrow Downs management team does have a problem with your tone. You've been taking cheap shots in several different threads for the past few days, and it has gone on long enough.

[Telchar]

I for one is happy to know the Admins opinions to matters like this - So thank you for filling us in Underhill!

[Nar]

I would very much like to hear some elaborations on the uses of fantasy. I recall reading somewhere of research suggesting that mental activities such as planning and problem solving reduce emotional distress in and of themselves-- perhaps the mental activity of planning and building a world for a fantasy story, or analyzing an existing story like LotR, has an effect similar to that of contemplative acts such as meditation or prayer.

I am also very interested in the aspect of fantasy as the (sub-)creation of a comprehensive world, as opposed to realistic literature, which is set in this world, the terms of existence exactly our own and therefore assumed rather than worked out from scratch or refined from a genre model. I am wondering if the process of inventing a world and limning the terms of its existence could induce the archetypes and myths that appear in fantasy.

[ April 27, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

[Jessica Jade]

++Moderators-forgive me for posting this, but, after reading King's infuriatingly outrageous replies, I'm going against my better judgement and responding. I apologize for this, but, having been piqued, I can't help but do this.++

Okay, King Carlton. Child of the 7th Age has done an excellent job of articulating why one would appreciate fantasy and Tolkien. She has also made it perfectly clear how wrong you are to make snap judgements on people you don't even know. If you still cannot get a clue, it's not my problem, nor is it my loss. Based on your posts, it seems to me that you have trouble accepting the fact that people think differently from you, and that you are unable to see from another perpective. You have made yourself look like an extremely narrowminded person who lacks a creative edge. (note: i am not saying you ARE that way-because, who am i to judge since i don't even know you? I'm not about to stoop to your low level of judgement by jumping to conclusions.) I am merely saying that you have made yourself LOOK like a parochial philistine. (one who lacks appreciation for art.)

We could get into debates about the fine points you addressed regarding my last post. But frankly, I don't think you're really worth the time. I would like to reinforce how inappropriate and uncalled for your belittlement of other's emotions/beliefs were. (ie-when people's parents fight is serious situation. You have absolutely no right to make a judgement, since you don't even know the whole story). Nobody here appreciates your blatant rudeness and your lack of respect. You have evidently shown immaturity and close-mindedness.

Posing such comments to you in reply to your deepest cherished feelings of security, to basically tear to shreds your sense of being in accordance to your influence and affection for Tolkien/fantasy and then look forward to your reaction was my objective.
DO NOT FLATTER YOURSELF.

Excuse me-- As if MY deeply ingrained beliefs are so fickle that they change with whichever direction the wind blows? I DON't THINK SO. My beliefs are not going to waver simply because somebody exposes me to a different viewpoint. They especially are not going to change when somebody throws at me a load of crap that they can't even justify or support. So, King Carlton, like i said before and will say again: DO NOT FLATTER YOURSELF.

I've made my point as articulate as I can. If you still can't get it KC, then that is your problem. From now on, I'm not going to waste any more time on the topic of your inappropriate tone and disrespect.

[piosenniel]

No, fantasy books have never helped me during a time of crisis. What they have allowed me to do is to reflect on decisions I have made in my life by comparing them to decisions and their consequences made by characters in a story. Fanyasy writings have foregone conclusions, for the most part, in that the story line is usually wrapped up or at least strongly hinted at how it might wrap-up by the end of the story. Life, unfortunately or fortunately depending on how one looks at it, never works out as neatly as that.

[ April 27, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ]

[Manelwen]

KingCarlton: This is the only forum that I tend to go to constantly, the others really don't have that appeal to me. Religion is something that I have been slightly uneasy about. I don't scorn it, but well, the Barrowdowns specifically said no religion talk, so I best not get into it.

Maybe it is our gender that affects what we think. Actually, I have no doubt in my mind. We all act differently whether it be boy or girl. We attach to different characters, depending on how we feel and what we are going through that point in our life. I find males are sensitive on some emotions where females are not and vice versa.

Thinhyandoiel: You know what I find helps in a situation like that? Laugh. For no apparent reason just laugh. I tried it once and it worked, my parents stopped and gave me a funny look before they started to laugh as well. Of course, it all depends on what they are arguing about. smilies/smile.gif Timing is of the essence. Or scream a song, soon they'll want to stop because they want to know what you are doing. (I find yelling out a tune like 'When the Saints go Marching in' or the national anthem really throws things off...and purposefully sing in the screechiest voice possible.) smilies/biggrin.gif I hope my advice doesn't get me into trouble, or anyone else if they decide to take it...

-Manelwen

[Thinhyandoiel]

smilies/smile.gif Manelwen! I thank you for your advice! And I do laugh, it was Tolkien that made me laugh. I just can't laugh when they (P.U's) fight and I'm not doing something to distract myself.

I am happy to say I am in a much calmer mood now that everything is alright at home, and thanks to everyone who put in a word for me. I appreciate it.

My use of Tolkien for the first time as a distraction was a good one. Laughter definately helps you focus your attention on something other than what you don't want to see (or hear) but of course, when I put the book down, I still had to face reality. Though, I found I was able to do it with a reduced level of anger within me. It was calming. smilies/smile.gif

Nar: I've heard of that study too! And I believe it's true for most people. Problem solving helps focus your mind, just remember all the highschool tests!! smilies/rolleyes.gif Put a math problem infront of most people and they will focus to try and solve it. I think it's the same in literature. When I read the Silmarillion, I noticed I have never been more focused before as I read a book! It's a demanding read, as I was trying to figure out who went where and where was where and who was who's brother/son/other relation etc. Also, comparing the Sil to other known mythology/legends. Numenore and Atlantis crossed my mind many times, and the great flood, etc. And, as I mentioned above with my experience, reading does have a calming effect on me.

[Daisy Sandybanks]

Wow, I feel really bad right now, haven't bee on here in quite a long time, before I go into this topic I would just like to say Hi all my fellow BarrowDowns comrades out there, for I have missed you all so much!
Enough said, yes, I'm still in my adolecent years,trying my best to cope with highscool, and fantasy books have given me a whole knew world to explore. Fantasy books have also definitly helped encourage me to draw more than usual, which I really appreciate.
Btw, I know this topic is probly really old right now, but I just had to have my say so in this.

[Manelwen]

I just got a new fantasy book today...from a series called the'Truth Sword' Series...you know, I love reading fantasy novels, and I find that I love buying them too!! smilies/biggrin.gif It is quite fun and it is really hilarious to hear my mother grumble that I have nothing better to spend my money on. I tell her it could be drugs and booze if she would want it any other way. Just joking though.

I was doing the dishes the other day and I thought of something else that could make a person smile...you know how 'Laughter is the best medicine' and that other one 'an apple a day keeps the doctor away' but if you laugh and eat applesauce, it'll come out your nose. *nods* Yep.

-Manelwen

[Rosa Underhill]

Wow. Just...wow...

I had no idea that fantasy literature could have had such profound effects on others. This is incredible, deep, heart wrenching sometimes, wonderfully true testimony to the power fantasy literature has. Thank you all so much for these amazing experiences and accounts of how your lives were changed by fantasy!

I haven't finished reading everything on this thread, but I have started compiling quotes. I will make a list of who I've gotten quotes from (sadly, I can't use every one, but I've put the ones that got my attention most into a Word document for future reference). I refuse to use any of these quotes without direct permission, though, because some are very personal and I know that some of you may not want me sharing your personal experiences with an English teacher.

I don't have the time presently to add to your accounts, but I do have a story of my own to share. I'll share it later on, though, since I've got to be at the bus stop post haste. smilies/smile.gif

Keep sharing, everyone! And, King Carl, your opinions are well-written and noted. I may not agree with you but you have valid reasons for your belief so I won't dispute it. (If you had just said "I don't like fantasy because it sucks", well, then I might have something to argue with.... smilies/biggrin.gif)