Tolkein's word is final - Sauron, then Gandalf the White is most dangerous in ME. This means Gandalf must have more sorcerous tools of destruction under his sleave if he chooses to use them than anything else save Sauron. This does not prove Gandalf cannot be defeated by a lesser creature, but it makes it damn more likely. End of story . . .LOL

How many did Gandalf face on Weathertop (assuming that it even happened in the movie)? If it even were all Nine, like I think in the books, Gandalf retreated and was chased off by four, and the wizard spins his hasty retreat into something positive by stating that by his chickenhood, Frodo and the others had to only contend with the five.

There were only five in PJ's adaptation, so maybe in the movie Gandalf does face all Nine.

He wasn't at Weathertop when Strider leads the Hobbits there. Gandalf obviously left in much haste, not even having time to scratch a G on a rock. One would then conclude that Nine were at least a match for the Grey Pilgrim. If, in RotK, the Witch-King were made 9X more powerful, he'd then be able alone to have the same effect on Gandalf the Grey.

As we're dealing with PJ's Gandalf the White, I'd then conclude that the WK's power was increased only three-fold. ;)

Gandalf the Grey was not chased off by four Nazgul - he wanted to lure them away from the Ring. Also, when as Grey he could have chosen not to kill the Nazgul, by the simple logic that they were a threat, but not a threat of Sauron's proportions or that of a Balrog. His role was first & foremost Steward of Middle Earth, meaning that if he could hold off the Nazgul away from the Ring for as long as possible, that should be all that he must do.

If there was a serious chance of the Nine killing Gandalf at Weathertop like with the Balrog in Moria, I have no doubt that then, & only then, would you have seen the REAL Gandalf the Grey uncloaked.
He said he was hard put to, as though he meant:"Ok they were were tough but I was never in any serious trouble".

But he was hardly in the state of shock & fear when he retold the encounter with the Balrog to the 3 Hunters in the Two Towers, & that was even when he was Gandalf the White!

Considering the record of the more dangerous Sauron against lesser beings (0-2), combined with Gandalf's words and reactions when speaking with Denethor in "The Siege of Gondor", if Gandalf was more powerful, it certainly was by a very small amount, and thus that is why I say the fight could have gone either way. Nowhere in the confrontation is a phrase or sentence stating that one was greater than the other, and seeing as how Gandalf is perhaps the wisest character in LOTR, if he thinks the Witch-King is a serious threat that could defeat him, I don't have reason to doubt his word.

Also, wasn't the comment of Gandalf being greater than the Nine said by Aragorn before the Witch-King's "power boost" as well? I vaguely recall Gandalf saying something like that to Frodo in Bag End in FOTR as well, though I am not sure.

The Mover by Design
 

I have always felt that Gandalf does defeat Sauron, and The Witch-king for that matter. It is not by outward blasts of power that he achieves this, it is by wisdom, foresight and being one step ahead of the game. Gandalf releases Theoden from the grip of Saruman therefore allowing the Rohirrim to turn up at The Battle of The Pelennor Fields just in time, and it is Gandalf who convinces Elrond to allow the two youngers hobbits to be part of The Fellowship therefore allowing Merry to be present during Eowyns battle with The Witch-king, if not for Gandalf being the prime mover of the forces of good, then the scene at the Gates of Minas Tirith may have been different. Gandalf achieves the prime directive by wisdom and not by the power of force, this was his mission, not to oppose Sauron by way of Power.

You take for granted your own idea of what Tolkien meant by his letter describing the Witch-King's "added demonic force," which has not been established conclusively. My reading of the letter bears as much legitimacy as yours does, and does not ask us to gloss over holes in logic: for example, If Sauron could literally channel more power into his Nazgul, why not do it when he knew exactly where the Ring was and didn't think anyone knew he was coming for it? Why only soup up the Witch-King? After all, wasn't the War of the Ring an "all or nothing" situation? Sauron wasn't personally at risk in Barad-dur, so why not pump even more vital juice into the Nerd-King?

Nope, I don't buy it, and I've provided sound arguments against it. You can believe what you want (and I know you do, facts be damned), but don't play the card like it's a conceded point.

Don't you think this is in effect Tolkein speaking his own mind out loud? Or is Aragorn really talking rubbish? I am still not convinced the enhanced Witch King is more powerful than the old one with his 8 servants put together. Sauron barely has any of his former power, so where has this sudden enormous hike in power into the Witch King come from? The Witch King is also more or less unproven in battle.

Gandalf vs the Witch King should favour Gandalf in the same way as a battle between Gandalf & Sauron would favour Sauron.

From 'The Siege of Gondor' as found in HoME, The War of the Ring (text exactly as it appears):

Seems that one of the original ideas was the the Witch King was one of the Wizard kind. Even after revision he retains the title of sorcerer, which might mean that he's a staff-less wizard. So maybe PJ went back to the Witch-King's roots, seeing that in some text that Gandalf admits that he cannot 'overmatch' the Witch-King (unless the contest is smoke rings), and so has the W-K literally floors Gandalf, who would have eventually fought back, ending in a draw.

Also, being a sorcerer, could the W-K pumped himself up just for the battle, spending all his power for one last throw, knowing that if he won the day, he could sleep it off for a few eons? And, like the darkness (you had to squint to see it in PJ's version), did his overamp run out too soon, leaving him vulnerable to Merry and Éowyn?

This battle would not be a draw if the real potential of Gandalf is dragged out of him by sheer need. The reference of the Witch King being the greatest servant of Mordor is of no avail here, since a servant of Morgoth had already fallen in battle to Gandalf.

The Witch King would have been at his greatest power when Sauron still had the Ring during the second age in the battle against the Last Alliance. Since he could not even make an impact in battle there, Sauron himself had to come to rescue him & the others.

Oh, come on. PJ going back through the HoME drafts in the name of some sort of 'accuracy'? Mr. Wizard Wrestling Federation? Mr. Saruman-fireball? The guy who had only read the book once, twenty years before, when he began filming? No, PJ shot the scene the way he did because he thought it would be kewl, and he liked neato-keen exploding staffs, and was determined that the W-K appear suitably badass (and get another cheap laff via Pippin). Jackson here as elsewhere has all the subtlety of a brick.

Who here honestly thought that Gandalf would triumph against the Balrog when they came toe to toe in Moria? The advantage seemed with the Balrog at the time just before they started battle. Here we seem to have a similar situation, the Witch King seems to have the greater menace at face value, but who is it that would have ultimately triumphed?

That's funny; I thought that there were only a few differences from the text, as PJ and crew weren't exactly sure of the number of hairs in Gandalf's beard (they estimated) and the height of Treebeard was reduced by 10 cm due to a New Zealand safety regulation that applied to the live actors.

Other that that, it was spot on, wasn't it?

alatar keeps posting on this thread (1) to provide additional information for others from the Books! and (2) knows that if this thread cracks the 500 post barrier that the Barrow Wight himself will provide alatar with an electric dog polisher signed by Billy Boyd.

Haha very funny (TGEW laughs at the only things that PJ got wrong on movies was Gandalf's Beard and Treebeard.) Back to Gandalf Vs. WK...
Now where was I... Oh yes, the start of my ranting,
This was a total injustice to Gandalf's character and if they should do something like that then PJ should of had Gandalf kill the WK since he wasn't a living man either he was a wizard...
Sooo I have finished if anyone has anything to add to that then they can post it.

Was Merry's blade that killed the Witch King mentioned as enchanted in the films? I do not recall that it was, meaning that any fine blade such as Orcrist (as far as the film is concerned) could probably pierce the Witch King. If so, it is definately advantage Gandalf in the film.

I ranted on Merry's blade here and elsewhere. If it's the blade that Merry holds right before the WK battle, then it's not magical as he has to sharpen it while in Rohan. And Gandalf's blade isn't magical either or it would have had the blue glow when Gandalf was in the Gondor siege.

Gandalf does not need a magical blade to kill the Witch King in the film.

Neither does Merry, apparently.

Did I question whether Merry did need a magical blade??? Machiavellianism (a tendency to deceive and manipulate others for personal gain) may be an interesting theory for you, Folwren.

On Merry not needing an enchanted blade, someone told me once that Merry, and for the same reason Eowyn, was able to kill the Nazgul because he wasn't a man. He, or she (I can't remember who I was talking to), thought that when the Witchking said no man can kill me, that he meant that only women or other races could.

Just thought I would add another explaination. Maybe that's what PJ thought:p

Does that mean an Oliphaunt could kill the Witch King? The theory is only a prophecy, not a fact.

A woman was needed in the story to give some noble credibility to women in Middle Earth. Otherwise women would be seen as the maids & housewives, & not the brave, noble cavalry sort which few could yet demonstrate. The killing of the Witch King in the manner of a woman also makes him look very foolsh of his overconfidence, even severely over-rated as an opponent. A good example of machiavellianism.

I know. But you can't argue with some people. He held to it, and I didn't have a book with me so I couldn't prove him wrong.

Remember when (at least in the books) Gandalf states that a "power" exists in the Shire as well? Methinks that Hobbits create a zone of chaos wherever they go. Look what happened when one or more of the four were present:

• Five Nazgul fail at Weathertop.
• A Ranger is caught off his guard.
• Nine Nazgul drown.
• Fight ensues at the "Last Homely House."
• Snowy mountaintop explodes.
• Cave troll falls.
• Dwarven bridgework collapses.
• Balrog fails.
• Gandalf falls.
• Dwarf caught off his guard.
• Steward's son dies.
• Uruks fail.
• Gollum is captured (think about it).
• Other Steward's son loses mind.
• Winged Nazgul fails with Ring in plain sight.
• Orthanc falls.
• Saruman dies.
• Shelob fails.
• Fight ensues in Tower of Cirith Ungol.
• Gollum falls.
• Rohirrim become blinded to female warrior in their midst in plain sight.
• Mumakil fail.
• Witch-King bests Gandalf.
• Steward takes flying leap.
• Minas Tirith almost overrun.
• Aragorn gets trampled by Battle Troll.
• Sauron falls.
• Pippin catches bouquet.

And so on. The reason that book Aragorn quarantines the Shire is not for the benefit for the Little Folk, but to protect the rest of us from them.

This could be because without mighty creatures like Gandalf in the world, Hobbits would not be able to exist for very long. Great powers, such as Gandalf & Aragorn, as well as High Elves, are drawn to the Shire in the knowledge that it needs protection. Even the Nine Riders did not readily wade through the Shire as openly as, say, when the Hobbits were attacked at Weathertop. The Shire is symbolic of everything that is good of Middle Earth, & if it were to fall, most likely Middle Earth would fall with it.

A very good point, but a little astray from the thread though.

Maybe. Just showing how one can observe 'A;' observe 'B;' notice that when B occurs A is always in the vicinity and therefore conclude that A is a possible catalyst for B. They may or may not be related, but you can post without exploring the true relationship. ;)

But remember what Tolkien says: "No other blade could have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that bound his unseen sinews to his will..."

The prophecy "not by the hand of man shall he fall" was made by Glorfindel at Fornost, a thousand years before. But, interestingly, long after the sword had been made.

That may have been a bit off-topic, but it was hilarious, nonetheless!:D

Sauron never knew where the One Ring was save for when Frodo claimed it in Mount Doom. Sauron, though powerful, was still limited and "powering up" the Witch-King (or anyone) would probably be a tiring process, possibly taking some time. The Witch-King, being the Dark Lord's most dangerous servant, was probably the best candidate for an increase in might. Regarding the War of the Ring being all or nothing, Sauron was quite arrogant, with the most notable example of this being his inability to comprehend anyone trying to destroy the One Ring.


Speaking to everyone here, since Gandalf's purpose in LOTR wasn't to save the day for the people, could PJ have made the scene to show that the people of Middle-Earth would have to save themselves? To me, all the scene appears to do is reinforce that idea. I don't see how Gandalf being bested by the Witch-King is an insult to his character--he just lost a fight. His character is still intact.

Gandalf was the enemy of Sauron, so being overmatched by his servant is a sore blow to the integrity of Gandalf as a major power. As I have said before, Tolkein was probably worried that an enhanced Gandalf the White would have creamed the Witch King in his previous form; a tonic of power was needed to at least give the Witch King a chance in a direct encounter. Some posters (& PJ) here have interpreted this differently, ignoring the massively increased might of Gandalf the White, against an enhanced Witch King.

By the way, Eru himself increased Gandalf's power for good measure, with a prior knowledge of knowing what Sauron may do to increase the Witch King's power. With this in mind, Eru would not have left a debt in Gandalf's power versus the Witch King!

In this context there's a problem with the scene on the walls where Pippin 'saves' Gandalf from an Orc- notwithstanding Gandalf the White's explicit statement in the book (The White Rider) that he was immune to ordinary weapons (even Anduril).

This is the problem. Gandalf the White is lying on the ground looking fearful! He who took on a Balrog and walked the halls of Dol Guldur was afraid. Peter Jackson could have redeemed himself just by adding a faint smile on the Wizard's lips, as if to say, "You flying fool! While you're here knocking me about, 7000 horsepersons just showed up on your flank, and two of those riders hold your doom in their hands."

Then why did he send the Ringwraiths to the Shire? Didn't Sauron perceive the thoughts of his servants when they had the Ring and its bearer pinned down in Bree, on Weathertop, or at the Ford?

Based on what prior example? This is pure speculation and one of those leaps in logic I mentioned.

Yeah, no doubt. So you're saying that Sauron only had a little to give, and it was really hard for him to do it, so the Witch-King got it all. Sounds like another leap in logic.

You're right, he was arrogant. Your example is an accurate one but what it reveals runs counter to your argument: His arrogance was in his presumption that military might was of primary importance. In this endeavor he put forth all that he was capable of mustering and held back nothing.

All of this is virtually irrelevant anyway since the indisputable fact is that the literal interpretation of the note has not been established.

His character--that of demigod in man's form, peer of Sauron--is decidedly not intact in the movie. If the scenario bore any hint of possibility I doubt so many people would be bent out of shape about it.

This qoute wins the argument in favour of Gandalf the White, & virtually proves that he would indeed be victorious against the Witch King in battle. Not that this counts too much in context with the film!

Im going to go back to some earlier points by narfforc as I think he is dead on. From the text we see that Gandalf proved greater than the Witch-King in two ways.

First, Gandalf proved indeed to be the 'greater' when it came to power. The Witch-King comes bursting through the gate, Gandalf is the only one who stands in his way (completely unafraid) and ready to confront him. The Nazgul's greatest weapon (we are told) is their fear, and they have 'no great physical strength against the fearless.' (Letter 210). The Witch-King naturally plays to his greatest asset...fear. This doesn't work as Gandalf is unafraid and even intent on chasing after the Witch-King had Pippin not come and told him about Faramir.

The second way is that Gandalf proved to be the better commander. To expand on what narfforc said, who was it that healed Theoden? Who was it that got the Rohirrim to fight against Saruman and ultimately come in to save the day? Who was it that instructed the Rohirrim to go to Gondor's aid and hence their arrival catching Mordor off guard, and the Witch-King to flee as the Rohirrim came up on the flank? Gandalf.

So, Gandalf not only overcomes the Witch-King's greatest weapon (fear), but also proves to be the better commander as The Witch-King is caught off guard by Rohan's arrival. Gandalf in both ways proves to be greater, and I cannot see how anyone cannot claim that in the confrontation with the Witch-King that Gandalf did not get the better of him.

Gandalf the White would have creamed the Witch King, end of story. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool: the Witch King is not a maia like the Balrog, just a powerful sorcerer.

Sauron the Great would cream any being within Middle Earth as he too is a maia; to think that a mere hobbit (merely piling on after the pummeling Sauron took by one elf with spear and one human with sword) could bring him down is the extent of folly. ;)

Hmm. That is assuming that Gandalf would have remained subordinate to the rules of his mission if confronted with an opportunity to duel Sauron with no outside interference. Maybe it would have been worth it to him to forfeit his reward and "open up a can." Even you, friend alatar, seem to underestimate our boy.

Gandalf remained true and so in my opinion would remain true even if Sauron came forth. The reason he's successful is that he stays on mission and doesn't say, "That's it...I'm tired of talking with hobbits and stewards and living on cram and trying to get everyone to pitch in and help fight this battle." Gandalf gets on Shadowfax. "I'm off to Mordor with a big stick, a bad attitude and a big can of Visine. Bring it on!"

The most that he can do to Sauron and stay true is to harry the Big Eye's plans.

Well my post was purely hypothetical. I realize there was no practical way for the duel to occur, and I know that Gandalf had the sense not to try to arrange it. However, if the confrontation had simply happened--say, Gandalf stumbles into Sauron's camp while everyone but Sauron have gone fishing--Gandalf would have to decide either to flee, or pull out all the stops and lay the smack down to the maximum of his potential. He already abandoned success once (though not the Rules) when he chose to confront the Balrog. Maybe he would have taken his chances with Sauron. It's more likely that he would have fled, knowing his character, but it also probably depends somewhat on the timing of the hypothetical run-in: if Sauron had come out instead of the Mouth and requested a throw-down (yeah, right!), I'll bet he would have accepted. At the very least it would occupy Sauron at a crucial moment. Books-wise, not Jackson-wise (re: Eyeball vs. Real Deal).

sigh.....

I find myself dragged back to this long winded thread.

As I said on previous posts:

David slew Goliath

Tolkien states (published in unfinished tales I think) that the Istari can be wounded and suffer injuries as mortals can.

Yes, Gandalf may well be more powerful than the WK, but that is not saying he cannot be defeated by him. The WK could get a 'lucky strike' in. If Gandalf is all powerful, why doesn't he just through a ring of protection around all of Minas Tirith and protect it that way?

The question asked years back at the start of this thread- could the WK defeat Gandalf - I say he might have had a chance - As I said before as well, LOTR is not simply black and white - if the strong always won then Sauron would not have been defeated.

Supernatural God-like Maia vs Powerful corrupted Sorcerer

If you draw fire with fire, the bigger fire will prevail. This is not a football match, whereby the weaker side can sometimes get the better of a much stronger one. Gandalf vs the Witch King is one gigantic power against a great power, the former wins hands down.

The only reason this topic has brought up a debate is due to PJ's scene, & the fact that Tolkein never really wanted us to know how weak or powerful the Witch King was. All we know is Gandalf is more powerful than a Balrog, a great maia & servant of Morgoth which is itself almost on level terms with Sauron (without his Ring) & does not even necessarliy serve Sauron. I refuse to believe nor have ever heard of anything that could suggest the Witch King is on this supernatural god-like level of power that the maia have.

Gandalf died when he killed the Balrog - would this have happened if he had killed the Witch King too? This could also be why he was reluctant to kill him. Also, if the Witch King is anything like as powerful as a Balrog, why wasn't Gandalf petrified with fear when he faced the Witch King as when he encountered the Balrog?