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Do you think Ulmo foresaw his treachery, and it was him that Ulmo/Tuor were warning Turgon against? |
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Oh look! A girl who's not my mother! Amazing! Awesome! I had no idea such a thing existed! What's this? A girl who's not my mother! And now I must pursue her, for This girl -- is not -- my motherrrrr! I think it'd be a big hit. (This is possibly unfair to Eol, who may actually have had a household of some kind. But frankly he deserves it.) I think I agree with your thought, though - it's the sort of thing that happens all the time even today. "She smiled at me - she must want to date me!" Quote:
Honourable mention has to go to Dior Eluchil, who killed Celegorm, thereby in part avenging the kidnapping of his mother years before. But it's implied that Dior had chosen Elven immortality, and... ... huh. Come to think of it, Dior was born to two mortal parents. When that happened to Elros' kids, they were just mortal by default. The evidence suggests, then, that the second King of Doriath may well have been a mortal Man, and his children only regained their immortal legacy through Nimloth their mother. So we can potentially add him to the list and make four. hS |
Do you think Ulmo foresaw his treachery, and it was him that Ulmo/Tuor were warning Turgon against?
Re: Your question: Honestly, I think that only Turin and Tuor should count as having accomplished such a feat. |
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"Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea." Quote:
hS |
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It's just an opinion I have on things. You're welcome to have a different one, of course. |
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Do you think that Morgoth intended for Maeglin to die?
He made sure Maeglin was safe from his own forces, but he gave him no safety from the people of Gondolin. Meaning he might have anticipated that Maeglin would die either way, at the hands of his own allies no less. Of course, the question is: what did he hope to accomplish by having his own loyalist killed? |
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Dior is not one of the topics which interests me, so I never dug deeper on that. |
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Did he keep Maeglin safe from his forces? Maeglin was safe, but he never left the city, and I don't remember him running into any Orcs or Balrogs in the FoG. It's entirely possible that if he'd encountered Gothmog, he would have been skewered even while declaring his loyalty to the Iron Crown. Like I say, this isn't an evidenced position, and I'm more than willing to shift it if you know of source text I've not considered. :) hS |
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There isn't evidence per se. Presumably, he gave Maeglin a token he was to show should he encounter any of Morgoth's troops, and they'd leave him alone in turn. But this is just a fan theory I stumbled across. People on another forum say that Maeglin was an agent of Morgoth, who harbored fear and hatred for all Eldar, Maeglin included. If we suppose this to be the case, then the question 'what did he hope to accomplish with that'? Also, you never answered my earlier question: Could Morgoth have counter-summoned Maeglin's spirit to do his bidding? Re: Dior: I thought about this, and I think he was immortal, which means there were three mortals who succeeded in slaying an Elda. (And no, Beren doesn't count, since he didn't actually succeed.) |
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So... what use would the Dark Lord get out of the shade of an elf that nobody left alive trusted? You'd have to look into whether possession is a thing in Middle-earth; again, it's a common idea, but what the source is, I couldn't say. Quote:
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Maybe he merely wanted to torture him, as you said earlier. |
Here is an interesting image:
http://tolkiengateway.net/w/images/t...nd_Maeglin.jpg What do you think about it? |
The 'Fall of Gondolin' book has come out. It'd be a more detailed description on FoG, which means it'll also feature you-know-who more extensively. Can't wait for it to be translated and distributed within my country so I could get my hands on it for more Maeglin goodness.
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What would be a good title for Maeglin-centric fan story?
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Well, there are no stories that depict his complete life, or his time in Halls of Mandos, so I figured I might write both of those.
Because, in case you didn't figure it out from my ramblings, I pity him. |
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"Child of the Twilight" is a possibility - it's the translation of his Mother-name, and sums up his duality. "Prince of Gondolin" would highlight his presumed authority and feelings of betrayal. Yeah, I tend towards simple titles... Sadly, the Fall of Gondolin book is pretty much just a collection of the versions found in HoME and UT. It's a beautiful book, but I don't think there's much new in there (though if you don't happen to own the entirety of HoME, I guess there is!). hS |
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I don't own HoME, no. And yes, I suppose it is, although I was honest about using this thread for random/silly questions. And yes, I went with 'Child of Twilight' for title. Thank you. If you want the link to the story, just say so and I'll PM it to you. |
Do you think Maeglin was afraid of Caragdur/Amon Gwareth early on?
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I think that Maeglin was probably afraid of a lot of things.
A quick character profile, written out as it comes to me, of Maeglin the sympathetic character: Born in the dark woods, Maeglin was forbidden by his father from seeing the sun. He visited only the mines of the dwarves; his entire childhood was closed-in, by trees or walls. The ride across Beleriand must have shaken him deeply: he was in a world entirely beyond his experience. Then Gondolin, high rather than deep, full of light - nowhere to hide, everyone insisting he dance and sing, nowhere to just sit and be still. It's no wonder he takes to mining as a way to get a proper roof over his head, and a bit of peace from... everyone. (Silm tells us that he was an elf of few words; FoG provides that when he returned from his captivity, he talks about joining the dances as if it's something he'd long been urged to.) And then his father, who has controlled his life, shows up, and kills his mother, and is killed in turn by his uncle. Already worried by heights, yes, I can see that developing into a full-blown phobia for a while. It would also tarnish his uncle in his eyes somewhat, leaving Idril as his only 'pure' family member. It's not unreasonable to cast him as the youngest person in the city: elves tend not to have kids in time of war, and Turgon is smart enough to have recognised Glaurung's outing in 260 as a serious omen. Maeglin was born in 320, and arrived in the city in 400. So he's the kid (as he has always been, to both his parents), but also, to everyone else, the weird prince. Once again, Idril - barefoot, visionary - is weird enough to be the only person he can possibly relate to. And yeah - that connection and idolising turns to love, and twists with each rejection. How does he take the arrival of Huor and Hurin? I don't know - but their departure, when his parents died over that being forbidden, must have burned. That's probably when he began to consider mining expeditions outside the mountains (he had previously abode by the rules Eol set in Nan Elmoth, right up to his escape with Aredhel.) Tuor? Tuor shows up looking like his replacement, or his bright mirror. Beloved of Idril, prince of Gondolin, leader of a new House - but while Maeglin has trouble talking to people, Tuor finds it easy, effortless. It's hard NOT to hate him. And then Earendil. If Maeglin is the youngest of Gondolin, Earendil is his final ousting: a new prince, beloved of Turgon, almost certain to steal his position as heir. Sure, it's not the kid's fault- but his upbringing wasn't Maeglin's fault, and look how little people make allowances for THAT. ... or something like that. Maeglin is a misfit, a child of twilight thrust into a world of light that never understood him. ... and also a traitor and lust-driven attempted kinslayer. Tuor didn't exactly have an easy childhood either (what did I say about them being reflections?), but he turned out much better... hS |
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I am glad other people think these things. I think it was Maedhros who had me wondering if you could starve an elf to death. |
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Maeglin was 190 yesrs old before he was killed, so not the youngest in Gondolin. Youngest among other Elda, but Tuor was also younger than him. |
I wonder how much strength do mortals have compared to Eldar? It takes a considerable amount of strength to be able to lift someone else high enough to chuck them over a cliff. (Or to steal their own weapon to stab them with for that matter.)
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This quote from the Fall tells you a lot about Maeglin: Quote:
In one way, this is fitting punishment: this is after he'd basically stalked Idril, after he'd betrayed his city for promise of power. But in another, it's unbearably pitiable. hS |
I agree with you that he was a child, and remained such until the end. Which only makes his end even more tragic.
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Could I have your thoughts regarding this too?
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Let's say the Trees were of similar consistency to a shield. I'm saying this because it means I can use the fact that arrows seem to average just penetrating a shield, meaning I can say that a human-fired arrow would stick maybe an inch into a tree. (That sounds about right.) Using this list, we find that a modern arrow imparts ~60 foot-pounds of at impact - it could push 60 lb through one foot. The arrow will penetrate an inch into the tree, meaning we'd need to be able to push 720 lb through that foot to actually penetrate a foot. And Morgoth pushed his spear 15 times that far. That's right on 10,000 pounds. Morgoth's minimum known attack strength is like having [url="https://cars.lovetoknow.com/List_of_Car_Weights"]3 medium-sized cars[url] piled on top of you, with their full weight resting on you (so 12 cars, if you're just under one wheel). It's a large elephant stepping directly on you with all four feet. It's the force of a car at 10mph not just hitting you and sending you flying, but crushing you directly against a wall. And Fingolfin survived it. Arguably, he also lifted it, when he 'thrice arose again'. A super-strong human can apparently lift ~500 lb - Fingolfin operated at 20x that level. Even if we trim that down by arguing that he didn't necessarily push Morgoth straight back up, and that he was operating under extreme adrenaline conditions, we still have to assume something like 5x maximum human strength. Beren only took down Curufin by knocking his horse over on top of him. Turin grabbed a sword from someone who wanted desperately not to hurt him. Dior probably had elven strength. Tuor is the only known mortal who went up against an elf in a fair fight and won. hS |
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And then threw said elf over the wall. http://home.agh.edu.pl/~evermind/gal...ki/maeglin.jpg Tuor the Child-Killer |
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True. Maeglin attempted to kill a child too. However, I too see him as one. By Eldar reckoning, being 190 years old is pretty much an equivalent of a child. Maybe I am being overly passionate about the whole thing, though.... I think I should change the topic before it gets out of hand. |
What should the new topic be?
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190 year old elf might be young, but he has the accumulated knowledge and presumed wisdom of any 190 year old man. |
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I agree it's a fitting punishment, as he cannot find satisfaction or make peace with what he's done, and it is very pitiable. Especially since he's pretty much done it to himself, misguidedly. Quote:
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All right, change of topic.
Who are your favorite character(s) of Tolkien Legendarium? Mine should be obvious, and so should the reasons I like each one of them. |
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I note also ("they" are the Númenóreans): Quote:
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