<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Éowyn wants to save Théoden, but he says: <BR><B>Quote:</B>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR> You already did. <BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<P>Um... did she? Which part of the movie was that in? Don't give me that "wait for the extended edition" stuff, either. movieÉowyn had absolutely nothing to do with saving movieThéoden. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well actually, yes, in a sense she did save him. Theoden had been crushed by his horse, he was essentially doomed and all of a sudden here comes the Witchking on his giant flying beast about to rip Theoden's head off. Eowyn saved him from a more brutal death. She protected his honor and gave him a peaceful passing, or as peaceful a death as was possible in battle.<p>[ 1:27 PM December 23, 2003: Message edited by: Cinderella ]

"A diversion"...ahh..classic.<P>Anyway, I think the one where Elrond says Arwen is dying (b/c she is tied to the power of the ring or something?)is pretty bad. My friend (who hasn't read the books) turned to me at that point and asked why Arwen was dying and what had just happened. I couldn't quite answer the question b/c I was confused as well.

I already said this on another thread but I'm surprised that Frodo's "I don't think I want to" isn't up here yet

Where's that one from?

He said it before he went into Shelob's lair

Eowyn saving Theoden: "I know your face" - this is repeated for a reason. In all of Rohan there is one thing beautiful and pure despite the corruption brought by Wormtongue and that is Eowyn. Theoden knows he is going to die and all he wants is for Eowyn to smile again. She means everything to him after he loses his son. Eowyn hasn't saved Theoden by exorcising Saruman or healing the hurts inflicted by the Witch-King, but just by being who she is.<P>Worst line: "It's sticky!"

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I'm surprised that Frodo's "I don't think I want to" isn't up here yet<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Why would it be? I mean really, why wouldn't he say something like that? I know <I>I</I> wouldn't want to go in there!!!<P>Abedithon le,<P>~*~Aranel~*~

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR><BR>It's sticky.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>I started cracking up convulsively when I heard Frodo say that. I'm sorry, but the first thing that a teenager thinks of when someone says something like that is....well.... I would get a firm kick in the pants from the Barrow Wight if I said it (*furtively looks around for the Barrow Wight*).

Yes, but spiders' webs <I>are</I> sticky. That's kind of the point of them.

Well I kind of got annoyed at the whole "It's sticky" thing because it sounded as if this was the first time he had ever ran into spider web. Don't they have spider webs in the Shire? And wouldn't he have known that they were sticky?. For me it was just kind of a "Duh!" moment, and that's why it turned out bad.

The line that really bugged me was spoken by Gothmog(?) after he spears Faramir's right hand man as he is laying on the ground wounded, "The age of Man is over, the age of the Orc is begun" or something like that.<P>I dunno, just didn't sit right with me.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You already did. <BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<P>Um... did she? Which part of the movie was that in? Don't give me that "wait for the extended edition" stuff, either. movieÉowyn had absolutely nothing to do with saving movieThéoden. PJ dismissed that idea by simplifying it all to his being possessed by Saruman, thus painting himself into yet another corner that he didn't want to be in. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Personally, I took it in a much less literal sense. She saved him by coming to him and smiling. She made his passing much happier and calmer, and, as someone else said, she gave him more honor than he could've had being devoured by the fell beast.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Well I kind of got annoyed at the whole "It's sticky" thing because it sounded as if this was the first time he had ever ran into spider web. Don't they have spider webs in the Shire? And wouldn't he have known that they were sticky?. For me it was just kind of a "Duh!" moment, and that's why it turned out bad.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Frodo didn't know it was spider's web at the time though. It was too dark in there for him to be able to see it - much darker than it appears on our screens, I'm sure. Think about it, what is there in there to provide him with any light? That's how I see it, anyway.<P>I dislike "Go home, Sam" and "A diversion!", for the same reasons as everyone else has posted.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Don't they have spider webs in the Shire? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Not that big, no. <P>I actually don't have a worst line. Nothing struck me as being bad as I was watching the film. Perhaps it was just all to awe inspiring for me to notice lines that didn't work, although I did notice a few while I was watching TTT.<P>Anything that I nominated now would have been influenced by reading this thread.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I actually don't have a worst line. Nothing struck me as being bad as I was watching the film. Perhaps it was just all to awe inspiring for me to notice lines that didn't work, although I did notice a few while I was watching TTT.<P>Anything that I nominated now would have been influenced by reading this thread. <BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, that's pretty much what happened to me. There are very few lines that I think don't work, if any, but there are some that I find distasteful (see: "Feast on his flesh!").<P>As to "It's sticky!", didn't we just discuss that last page? I think it's legitimate enough. See that page to see why, several of us all basically agreed on that point.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Actually, I think the ironic thing about PJs version of the story is his over-insistence on dialogue. Numerous complaints have been made about how impossible it is to turn such an epic into a film, but this could have been done more efficiently and effectively with visuals. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I’m with you, doug. Way back when the LotR movies were in the planning stages, I remember PJ citing <I>Braveheart</I> as an inspiration for the tone and flavor he’d like the films to have. I thought, “Awesome!” You could use that film to teach a clinic on how powerful images and acting without dialogue can be. Sadly, though, if Legolas is Mister Obvious (I think that’s Prince Obvious to you, bub!), then Jackson is King Obvious, relentlessly beating the audience over their collective heads with dialogue cues to MAKE SURE YOU GET IT.<P>Though many worthy candidates have been mentioned, I might as well nominate Sauron's awful "I see you!" redux.<p>[ 2:14 AM December 29, 2003: Message edited by: Mister Underhill ]

Geez, such negativity.<P>I loved that line that Eowyn says to Theoden. I cried the hardest then, thinking "You can't save him, my love". YES, I said my love. :P<P>Worst line for me? Probably when Arwen says "Some things are certain". Loves me that scene, but that was a bit out of place for me. It's not too bad, tho, she pulled it off.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Well I kind of got annoyed at the whole "It's sticky" thing because it sounded as if this was the first time he had ever ran into spider web. Don't they have spider webs in the Shire? And wouldn't he have known that they were sticky?. For me it was just kind of a "Duh!" moment, and that's why it turned out bad.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I almost got the impression that it was <I>supposed</I> to be close to pitch black for Frodo in Shelob's Lair, so that he really had very little idea what he was seeing, & was only illuminated for the audience so we didn't have to hear Frodo talking & not be able to see anything . Although later he can apparently see the large bird-like creature twisting in a web, & one or two other things, so maybe I'm not quite right. Or maybe Jackson went back on himself like with the spotlight eye thing?<P> I think that the worst line(s) would have to be Frodo's to Sam, if only because it hinges on a terrible part in the movies, & also Legolas's diversion line. There's got to be a happy medium between helping the audience along & feeing them brain-dead lines.<p>[ 11:05 PM December 30, 2003: Message edited by: The Only Real Estel ]

I'm really suprised that no one has mentioned Eowyn's confrontation with the Witch King. I HATED the lines used in the movie. I mean, they had excellent, moving lines fed to them and they had to screw them up. <P>"Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!" versus "I will kill you if you touch him (or whatever-I've only seen it once )"? Am I too stupid to understand the first line? I thought I understood it just fine in the books, thank you very much, and I didn't need it dumbed down. (I adored the rest of the movie, it was awesome, and I don't usually pick out extrodinaraly stupid lines. This one just bothered me) <P>I would quote more of this section, but I don't know the movie lines and it would take up too much room. *muttering to self* Such wonderful lines! Gone! Slaughtered! What a disgrace!... <p>[ 9:36 PM January 01, 2004: Message edited by: Laitoste ]

Heh. I've got quite a few...<P>When the Witch-king says, "I will break him!" and does absolutely nothing about Gandalf.<P>Pretty much all of Theoden's lines bugged the crap out of me. They just made him so... ugh. I don't know how to explain it. He was not Theoden to me.<P>I didn't really like Aragorn's coronation speech. It was too simple. Or maybe I'm just picky, which is probably true. <P>Elrond's death fixation was pretty annoying, but I did actually like the part between Elrond and Arwen, "You have the gift of foresight. Tell me what you have seen!" I greatly disliked it when Elrond named Anduril. "Become who you were born to be." bugged me at first, but I'm okay with it now. <P>*snorts* "Arwen is dying... Arwen's fate is now tied to the Ring." Yeah. Just another attempt to weasel her character in where it doesn't belong. <P>Surprisingly, I didn't mind Gimli's lines in RotK as much as the other movies. *grimaces while thinking about the dwarven women scene*<P>As for Frodo saying, "Go home, Sam," I think it made sense for the movie. It shows just how truly evil Gollum is and how the Ring can separate even the best of friends. it was very, very sad, but necessary for the situation in the movie, at least in my mind.<P>And triple ughies goes to ultra-deformed-orc dude (I don't think his name is Gothmog - Gothmog was a balrog, unless I am much mistaken). I agree with <B>Maltagaerion</B> - that line was kinda cheesy.<P>Well, I think that's pretty much it. Hopefully the extended version won't add to the list here.<P>~Sam

I was glancing through the replies and I noticed that someone(more or less) put in that there was too much dialogue. Okay, if you count Arwen, Aragorn, and Legolas's lines in this movie, they don't come close to the number they had in TT or FotR. The majority of this movie was people giving each other glances. I think that a lot can be said with a look or a glance, and I completely disagree with those people that think that the movie was too dialoguey (?). <P>As far as worst lines go, I must say that Legolamb's 'a diversion' was horrible. It was a bad line, and couldn't be delivered well. also almost TOO obvious.<P> Ah, Legolas, the prince of Obvious.

"A diversion" *shudders* <P>I didn't like "Go home, Sam." Because <I>my</I> Frodo from the books, would never say that. In the books Frodo is so kind, and tolerant of Gollom, that Gollom slips up and asks for the ring back. Even Sam is reminded then, that kindness is not stupidity. Actually I disliked that whole scene, and the changes it caused to Shelobs lair. I love the "sneaking" line from the book, but they didn't have to butcher the scene to put it in. The idea that Smeagol emerges almost completely there, and so tragicly ( an old weary hobbit, shrunken by the years that had carried him far beyond his time, beyond friends and kin) too, and is then smothered. That part of the book made me cry. There is so much drama there, but it is more subtle. <BR>I also hated how Sam started beating Gollom up. I would rather have had that happen in Shelob's lair. It's more effective, because all this time, Sam's been following Frodo's example, but now Frodo is in danger. In the book Sam quite clearly despises Gollom, but until Shelob's lair, he does not lose his temper. And that is what makes "If once he could go, his anger would bear him down all roads of the world pursuing, until he had him at last: Gollom." so effective. And when Sam decides not to follow him, we admire him even more. P.J. did a good job with the movie, but he couldn't put some of these subtleties in, though maybe it wasn't his fault.<BR>Well I'm afraid I 've veered a bit off topic... um... "I don't think there will be a return journey."

I think the "A Divervision" was kinda cute...<BR>lol

Harking back to the "Go Home" controversy, I'd like to point out this section from Mount Doom:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR><BR>Sam knew before he spoke, that it was vain, and that such words might do more harm than good, but in his pity he could not keep silent. "Then let me carry it a bit for you, Master," he said. "You know I would, and gladly, as long as I have any strength."<P>A wild light came into Frodo's eyes. "Stand away! Don't touch me!" he cried. "It is mine, I say. Be off!" His hand strayed to his sword-hilt. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Frodo???<P>But then he continues: <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> But then quickly his voice changed. "No, no, Sam," he said sadly. "But you must understand. It is my burden, and no one else can bear it. It is too late now, Sam dear. You can't help me in that way again. I am almost in its power now. I could not give it up, and if you tried to take it, I should go mad."<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never had a problem with Frodo saying "Go home Sam," probably because of the parts Helen quotes above. It might be a logically following reaction if Frodo felt that Sam might take the Ring from him. The fact that Gollum becomes the mover and shaker of the event is off kilter but not inconceivable. The part I really <I>didn't</I> like was when Sam turned around and actually started to leave! That's about the most un-Sam thing I could think of for him to do--leave his master alone with a a creature whom he <I>knows</I> is plotting against both him and Frodo. Half-wise indeed! Sam, you silly hobbit! It does make for some effective tension in Shelob's Lair, although the dynamic was different. I would have liked to see Frodo and Sam hacking through the webs together, then Frodo running off yelling down the path, leaving Sam to struggle with Gollum and Frodo to meet his fate at Shelob's 'hands'. But I understand the other way probably works better for film, making it so that the viewer has more (and different) emotion invested in the plight of Frodo at this point. ( I think I said that right...hopefully!). <P>Cheers!<BR>Lyta

Indeed, Lyta... but I find myself wondering what Sam WOULD have done if Frodo had sent him away in a Ring-possessed fit. <P>The only time that I can bring to mind that Sam **ever** outright disobeyed Frodo was on the riverbanks of the Anduin when Frodo told him to turn back, and Sam would not.<P>If Frodo threatened Sam with Sting, and ordered him to go away, what would Sam do?<P>Stand fast, ready to die before he would leave?<P>Argue as best he could?<P>Turn and go home?<P>Pretended to leave, and then stalk Frodo from a distance hoping he'd change his mind?<P>I tend to think the latter, from someplace early on when he said he'd follow Frodo, which I can't place right now (FotR, maybe). Other opinions?

I think he would <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Argue as best he could <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> and if that failed he would have <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Pretended to leave, and then stalk Frodo from a distance hoping he'd change his mind... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> In the movie, I suppose, he did decide to really leave, but soon came to his senses and tracked Frodo to save him from Gollum's evil plan.

Filmic allusion, infamous or otherwise:<P>Eowyn (after defeating the Evil Witch King and trying to move Theoden to safety): "Father, I want to save you."<P>Theoden: "You already have."<P>Flash back several years, pace Star Wars, Return of the Jedi:<P>Luke (after defeating the Evil Emperor and trying to move Darth Vader to safety): "Father, I want to save you."<P>Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker: "You already have, Luke."<p>[ 8:33 PM January 03, 2004: Message edited by: Bêthberry ]

I agree with Lord of Angmar as to what Sam would do. I think that in the movie, anyway, Sam is too devastated by Frodo's order to really do anything. I imagine it would be the emotional equivalent of a parent telling their child that they don't love them anymore, and proceeding to abandon them (Denethor's movie conversation with Faramir springs to mind). It is a little annoying that he takes a while to come to his senses, and realize that he never would leave, not when Frodo was in such great danger, especially, but I still think that the shock of the order was too much for him to really think straight after that. It actually adds to the grief of "The Choices of Master Samwise" bit- the fact that not only is Mr. Frodo "dead", but he was never reconciled with Sam.

What<I>would</I> Sam have done? My own opinion is that he would have done everything Lyta suggest: Stand up,ready to die before leaving, arguing it as best he could. Eventually though, love of his master :::fishes a few minds from a nearby gutter and throws them back at their owners::: would prompt him to obey Mister Frodo. He'd turn and start to go home, in dejected shock, then shake it off, turn around, and follow Mister Frodo.<P>The shortened version? Well, the Lord of Angmar already suggested it. Argue as best he could, than pretend to leave.<P>That's what we want to happen. And isn't that what happens after all? <P>Frodo: Go home Sam.<P>Sam: (shocked, stands where he is and makes various arguments in voice drowning in tears) But, he's a liar...you dun mean that...<P>Frodo: (turns and walks away..or walks up...He walks...or is it climbs...whatever.)<P>Sam: (sits down and cries)<P>Me: (clenches hand rests on theatre seat) That's it, someone grab Frodo by that cloak of his and drag him off those stairs so's I can slap some sense into him.<P>Then, Sam starts to leave, falls. And comes to his senses, in both meanings of the term, gets up and follows/stalks Mister Frodo.<P>The line from the End of Two Towers comes to mind, when Sam realizes his master's not dead and goes running after him. He grumbles "Never leave your master. Never, never. That was my right rule " (and some other stuff I can't remember). Sam climbing down that ladder in a mountain (steps, HA, that's a ladder and no mistake)always brings that quote to mind. <P>This post is off-topic huh? I'm sorry, I just had to say it. I'll be good now.

ugh...we all know the funniest line was "A diversion!"<BR>The most heart-breaking line was "Go home, Sam."<BR>but the worst line?...<BR>"The age of men is over, now is the age of the orc." or something like that. i dont know, i thought it was cheesey.

I think that in general the script was the weakest thing about the films. I agree about the cheesiness of many of the lines mentioned above ( "I'm going to save you/you already have" in particular) <BR>But what annoyed me most was the gobbeldygook Gandalf was made to spout to Pippin about the afterlife. <BR>It was not only drippy, but also totally at odds with Tolkien's own ideas. Firstly Gandalf says 'it is a journey we all have to make'. Well, no, Gandalf is a Maia and thus immortal. <BR>Secondly, all the stuff about sea and white shores. Maybe for the elves, yes, but not for Pippin. Tolkien frequently states that the fate of men after death is not known.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>It was not only drippy, but also totally at odds with Tolkien's own ideas. Firstly Gandalf says 'it is a journey we all have to make'. Well, no, Gandalf is a Maia and thus immortal.<BR>Secondly, all the stuff about sea and white shores. Maybe for the elves, yes, but not for Pippin. Tolkien frequently states that the fate of men after death is not known.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, the words are right from Tolkien's own mouth, though, granted, in a very different context. I found Gandalf's speech to Pippin to be very touching; I did not see it as Gandalf literally talking about the Undying Lands, since obviously he would know that that is not Pippin's fate. It was more of a figurative rendering of the theme that existence does not end with death, I think, to reassure Pippin and give him a shred of hope in the awful situation they faced.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR><B>mark12_30</B> quoting Tolkien: <I>A wild light came into Frodo's eyes. "Stand away! Don't touch me!" he cried. "It is mine, I say. Be off!" His hand strayed to his sword-hilt.</I><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't think it would be correct to say that Frodo's "Be off!" means "Go away." In context, it is more like the "Stand away!" expression included in the actual quote. <P>Which I take to mean, "Don't touch me! Step back out of sword reach, but definitely far enough so that I am sure your grubbing hands cannot reach my ring--my Precious!"

Worse line, from Sam:<P>Share the load...the load...the load...(with close-up on Sam's mouth saying this, in case we get distracted and think Gollum is saying it instead of Sam!) <P>LOL! I just don't like this, it seems to rub me the wrong way entirely.

My biggest gripes are not lines, but rather missed details. My mother read 'Shelob's Lair' and 'The Choices of Master Samwise' the night before we went to see RotK, and she left the thetre complaining about not being able to see Shelob's eyes properly, and, I agree with her here, most of the emotion of that scene is played in Her eyes...which are not shown.<P>My gripe is about the downfall of Sauron.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> 'The realm of Sauron is ended!' said Gandalf. 'the Ringbearer has fulfilled his quest.' And as the Captains gazed south to the Land of Mordor, it seemed to them that, black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling al the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vast thretening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Manwe knows where this amazing piece of imagery went, not to mention "the shadpw slippig over the gates of Bree in 'Fellowship'. i mean, he has the perfect shot to show a Man shaped shadow slipping over the fence as the Hobbits pass through, but no, the scene is wasted. It could have been useful, if only to show that the Hobbits aren't as safe as they think.<P>Actually going back on topic, Smeagol and Deagol' 'M love.' could be taken wrongly...very wrongly indeed, as could *Gollum* calling *Smeagol* 'His love'. Ewwwww! Bad mental image! BAD!!!!! *shudders*

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> the words are right from Tolkien's own mouth, though, granted, in a very different context <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>They are description, not dialogue, which makes a big difference. And context is very important. I just don't think Tolkien's Gandalf would have sat there saying a lot of pretty words to Pippin to console him. He was a tough cookie, hard but fair, and never gave anyone meaningless words of comfort. And as he well knew that Pippin was not bound for the Undying Lands, he would not have told him he was going there.

The line I disliked the most was when Aragorn and Gandalf are talking in Edoras (tangent: I love Merry and Pippin's song about the Green Dragon!), and that whole business about Gandalf not knowing if Frodo is alive or not and Aragorn saying "What does your heart tell you?" (Wow, that was a runon sentence.) It was totally back-asswards. Or at least that's what I think.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> and all of the ones you have said plus Theoden "you already have." that was the obligatory disgusting Harry Potter closing line of the film. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, that WAS quite cheesy. But not nearly as cheesy as the Aragorn/Arwen flashbacks in TTT. I hated those.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> And Theoden's speech before the Pelennor was stupid. He sounded like a madman. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The majority of that was actually straight from the books (though PJ seems to have taken the battle-cries of Theoden and Eomer and put them through a blender to get that speech). In fact, Theoden sort of WAS a madman. To quote the book (from memory, oy vey!): "Fey he seemed, or the battle fury of his fathers ran like new fire in his viens..." He was in a berserker battle-rage. Oh, to be a Viking. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Flash back several years, pace Star Wars, Return of the Jedi: <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So I WASN'T the only person to notice that! Huzzah! Am I also not the only person to notice the same Star Wars scream being used in both TTT and RotK?<P>And Legolas may be the Prince of Obvious, but he's MY Prince of Obvious.

Yup, I think you people are all nitpickerrrs! But I do think Legolas' "diversion" was a bit... well... missplaced... <p>[ 12:14 PM January 13, 2004: Message edited by: Finnguala ]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Yup, I think you people are all nitpickerrrs!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>A good many of the things I've been reading recently are at least .