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Thanks for an interesting opening Fordim.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fordim

It makes me consider how in Middle-earth the concept of "honour" is oddly absent. Yes, people do honourable things, but they are not willing to immediately hack off someone's head if they are insulted by them.

I would say - and this is now painted with a quite large brush I know - that Tolkien's concept of honour is that of the Romans and that of the chivalry while Icelandic sagas have a more Homeric notion of honour.

Compare the viking heroes in tha sagas to Odysseus fex. What does Odysseus do when he finds her wife encircled by the suitors? A chivalric (or Roman) honour-code would insist that he takes his place as the master of the house and insists that the "guests" leave immediately after apologising the master and the lady of the house - maybe leaving some compensation as well. But what would and Icelandic hero do - or what does Odysseus? He will butcher them to the last man with no mercy or making deals as his honour has been wounded and that's the only way to clean it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fordim

Another big difference is in the notion of heroic action. There are numerous times in the Sagas when a hero behaves in a way that one of Tolkien's heroes never would. My favourite example is Grettir. When he hears of a farmer who is being terrorised by Vikings he says that he'll help the farmer for a price. The farmer agrees and when the Vikings next show up Grettir greets them invites them into the barn then shuts them in and burns them alive. He then collects the reward from the farmer and sails away in the Vikings' ship leaving the farmer without a barn and 12 burned corpses to contend with. Aragorn he ain't.

So despite my earlier post saying that I find the notion of northern heroism to be prevalent in Middle-earth, I think I might have to amend that. "Naked will and courage in the face of inevitable defeat" is there, but (what we would consider) silly hang-ups over matters of honour are not, nor are (to our minds) dubious tactics. So while Frodo and Aragorn are "Icelandic" in some ways I think that they are significantly, well, something else as well. And on this point I refer you back to Hookbill's excellent post and his salient reminder that there are many different ingredients at work in the "cauldron of story" that is Middle-earth...

I agree that charaters such as Frodo and Aragorn are not really Icelandic archetypes (they are not anything really, apart from Tolkienian ;) ), but then Rings is not the most 'Icelandic' of Tolkien's works, and I have not claimed that for it - it is just one influence amongst the many to be found there (this is why it's sometimes better to keep to the point - unvoiced ideas sometimes surface from who knows where...). However the Sil is a different matter. And in there you will find one particular character with the Icelandic notion of honour in abundance and that's Feanor.

The whole story becomes one of his blood feud - and in fact the build-up to this is also very Icelandic in that we have to go through a lot of chapters of background before we get to the 'Silmarillion' main thrust. We have Oaths, Kinslaying, Ship burning, whole cultures relocating overseas...

Now just to add to the original thrust about Numenor, I found this interesting quote from the letters:

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Letter No. 227: "The legends of Númenórë are only in the background of The Lord of the Rings ... They are my own use for my own purposes of the Atlantis legend, but not based on special knowledge, but on a special personal concern with this tradition of the culture-bearing men of the Sea which so profoundly affected the imagination of peoples of Europe with westward-shores."

Quote:

Sninafal

*tsk* It's the Svinafell troll of which you speak...it works well as an insult on so many levels because Svinafell means "Pig Mountain".....:cool:

Perhaps then choosing specific texts (or sequences within the text) wherein the Sagas or Eddas resonate the strongest in Tolkien's work, and then showing correlations to the source material would be the best avenue to divine the Sagas' direct effect on Tolkien's work; rather than attempting to follow a single strand through his entire corpus.

Beg pardon, but Iceland's pre-human inhabitants were not all trolls and elves.

Here is a link to a loose translation of the Official version of the tale of the Guardian Spirits of Iceland (I have my own version, from a unique perspective.)

Official version of "The Guardian Spirits of Iceland"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pieeyeddragon (Post 530368)

The idea of Guardian Spirits is one Tolkien seems to have avoided (probably it crossed the line into the area of 'Just too pagan - mind you, Legolas does speak about the memory of the stones of Hollin....). However, it was a big part of Norse belief. The scene in which Egil Skallagrimson sets up a 'Scorn Pole against his enemies, Erik Bloodaxe & his Queen Gunnhild comes to mind. He sticks a horses head on a pole & declaims:

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"Here I set up a níð-pole, and declare this níð against King Eiríkr and Queen Gunnhildr," — he turned the horse-head to face the mainland — "I declare this níð at the land-spirits there, and the land itself, so that all will fare astray, not to hold nor find their places, not until they wreak King Eiríkr and Gunnhildr from the land." He set up the pole of níð in the cliff-face and left it standing; he faced the horse's eyes on the land, and he rist runes upon the pole, and said all the formal words of the curse. (ch. 57) ('níð' has been translated as 'scorn' or 'curse')

And I recall reading that the Dragon head-pieces on Viking ships were removable, & were taken down on returning home, in order to avoid frightening the Guardian Spirits. By extension, it seems that the purpose of such Dragon heads was not simply to terrify the Vikings' human enemies, but also the Guardian Spirits of the lands they attacked - scaring them off, so they couldn't offer their protection to the people.

Níð - now there's a word for your translation thread, Davem. I would say "slander" was a better word than scorn because it has a formal connotation. The Svinafell troll insult Fordim and I referred to earlier was a níð which was punishable by full outlawry in Iceland. For more on insults and their linguistic and legal implications:
http://ragnarokr.com/Scholarship/nidsenna.html
I think Fordim is right btw. The bickering in the Icelandic sagas is not something you'd ever see in Tolkien, except among the trolls or orcs.

Gunnhild is a fascinating character, actually. She crops up in lots of the sagas and I see her as a dark Galadriel - maybe what Galadriel could have become if she'd taken the Ring... Gunnhild learnt her arts of magic from the Sami of Finland, not the Valar...she also turns up for example in Njalssaga, where she kickstarts the whole feud that destroys the two factions when she renders the Icelander Hrutr impotent by her witchcraft, so that when he goes back home his bride Unnr is most unimpressed and wants a divorce...