![]() |
How about an Elrond/Faramir dilemma for you then, Mithalwen? :P
I think my choice would be the Faramir Vs Boromir face-off. T'would be no contest in terms of the films, but as for the books...flip...that's just too tough to answer....:confused: I just wonder how many guys would prefer Arwen (or Xenarwen to give her the proper name as this is the film I am talking about now) if she had been played by say.......Keira Knightley? She seems so much more suited to Xenarwen than the lovely placid Liv. |
Quote:
Kiera Knightly has a chin like a boot-toe and one of the largest underbites in the film industry. Add to that her complete lack of feminine curves, and I don't see what people find attractive in her. |
Quote:
I just couldn't believe Liv being a Warrior Princess - it didn't work for me. Maybe as she was so good at being ethereal it didn't seem right when she was being a Riot Grrl? Or maybe it's down to PJ having messed with the original roles too much? But Keira (however you spell her name ;) ) seems to have that tough/pretty thing down in spades - as seen in King Arthur and Pirates. |
Quote:
|
Did someone say Keira Knightley?
...:) |
Yes. But she's not really worth talking about for the above-listed reasons. ;)
A friend of mine told me that Claire Forlani was first considered to play Arwen. She has sufficiently "elvish" looks to her- and no boot-toe chin or underbite. http://www.hissandpop.com/celebritie...photos/001.jpg |
Quote:
Haha, I beg to differ about good Keira. I could picture Claire as Arwen. |
Galadriel is more beautiful. Maybe Arwen's face is prettier, but she's nothing like her grandmother. Because it isn't just the features that (for me) tell how beautiful someone is, it's how she bears herself and how is her presence and what "shines through". Taking these things into account, Galadriel sure is more beutiful. Her powerful spirit, charisma and person just clearly override Arwen the Just-A-Prettygirl. Arwen is too passive to be a real striking beauty, if you ask me.
As to Keira Knightley... She is over-rated. I can't deny she's pretty, but she's no goddess (and I agree she's way too thin). I wouldn't have liked to see her as Arwen, because she really is a quite poor actor. Besides, I don't want anyone who says she will go to have plastic surgery at the age of 25 ("because then you start to get wrinkles") :rolleyes: to have anything to do with ME! (No, I don't hate KK, sorry if I sound like that... :)) |
Arwen 4ever
I definatly think that Arwen is prettier, but Galadriel is fairest. Arwen has beautiful dark hair and dark blue eyes where Galadriel has blonde hair and pale eyes. They are both prety and i think Arwen is better because Galadriel just sits at home and does nothing where Arwen goes to Gondor and saves Frodo from the Nazgul (in the movie) Arwen 4ever:)
|
Galadriel, hands down. Even in the movies - I found Arwen to be rather bland, with little to no personality in her looks. Plus, Galadriel actually does stuff - a definite plus in attraction (at least to me).
|
I agree with Gimli. (obviously! :rolleyes: 55 times, even! :p)
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
I like it because you have a five after a five, and a five before a five. Try getting the same with 44 :p |
Quote:
ie, no particular reason. *a very anoying song that goes "a hundred bottles of beer on the wall, a hundred bottles of beer! We take one down, pass it around, ninety-nine bottles of beer on the wall! Ninety-nine bottles of beer on the wall, ninety-nine bottles of beer! We take one down, pass it around..." I haven't yet met anyone who has gotten to 1. |
Book wise, it's Galadriel for me! Not because she is pretty but because she is powerful and actually does something. Arwen is a bit of a sook in the book because all she does is become a mortal and make a banner. In the movies, Arwen is way prettier, but Galadriel again is way more awesome.
|
Arwen, because she is descended from Luthien the fairest elf to ever live. It says somewhere in the Lord of the Rings books that Arwen was the fairest since the time of Luthien.
|
Quote:
|
Yes, it is said that Galadriel was the "mightiest and fairest of the remaining elves" and IMHO Arwen was an elf, ntil she decided to become mortal and Gimli thought also that Galadriel was fairer and if Arwen really would look like Luthien, which she didnīt, she is said to walk in the likeness of Luthien, then there should be no doubt left who is fairer.
And beside the fairest thing, Galadriel is much more powerful and awesome and in one league with Feanor. |
Quote:
As for power, I agree Galadriel was more powerful than Arwen, but Arwen was a power in her own right. She does become the queen of all the remaining elves in Middle Earth. |
Quote:
Quote:
|
Quote:
Quote:
Galadriel, like virtually all the Lords/Ladies of the House of Finwe, seems a bit too power hungry. Even Finrod, who is another one of my favourite characters. Oddly enough Morwen and Turin are my two favourite characters. Morwen more than Turin, because despite everything that happened to her she remained unbroken. |
Quote:
I'm a bit obsessed with tragic heroes and just tragic characters in general, and more FA than the later Ages, and especially COH, though The Sil is good also. But I have endless arguments about Hurin's family (can you go more tragic?) with nearly everyone. :p Before I get cast out of the Doors of Night to keep Melkor company for going off track... Quote:
The way I see Arwen and Luthien differs from yours. I think that Luthien is much more forward and charismatic, more rough, more First Age. Arwen is, for lack ofa better word, tamer. Between them, there are times when I prefer Luthien because of her wild and rebellious touch (but that's not to say that I see her as a willful teenager, I'm just pointing out the difference what I see her as compared to Arwen). Arwen is gentler, quieter, but you can still feel that backbone in her at times. And both ladies are certainly mysterious, though in different ways. Arwen, because we know so little of her, and Luthien, because, as you well put it, she stands alone. Quote:
|
Quote:
And for the quote I stated, that Galadriel is the"...and fairest of the remaining elves" IMHO, when Tolkien is takling generally of elves, both Elrond and Arwen are included, otherwise he would probably say "...the elves of Me and the two half elves..." But that would be silly and nitpicking, so he probably just says elves. Elrond because he chose to be counted among the Eldar and Arwen cause she lifed the life of the Eldar and had their youth and until the point she chose to become mortal she was for me an elf maiden. Genetical she is half elfen but culturally elf, until she decided to become a mortal women. Quote:
And for Luthien Iīm really not impressed by her even if Tolkien said that she was the greatest of the Eldar, everything what she did was for the sake of her love to beren but not for the greater good. Would Beren not have come to Doriath Luthien wold probably still dance under a tree. Donīt get me wrong her deeds are impressive, but not Luthien, would she have went to Morgoth to free some people, Finrod for example then I would be impressed or if she became active before she met Beren, that for me would be an example of a strong women but she did that cause she couldnīt life without Beren. Thatīs why Galadriel for me is greater (even if Tolkien sees it differently), she chose to stay in ME (if we leave out her pride, which was one reason) for the greater good to see Sauron fall and help where she could. Quote:
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
Arwen is not a 're-incarnation' of Luthien (that in the view of this mythical history would be impossible, since Luthien has died like a mortal and left the world of time) but a descendant very like her in looks, character, and fate. There can be no doubt that Arwen looked a lot like Luthien. '"My son," said Gilraen, "your aim is high, even for the descendant of many kings. For this lady is the noblest and fairest that now walks the earth. And it is not fit that mortal should wed with the Elf-kin." '"At last, Lady Evenstar, fairest in this world, and most beloved, my world is fading. Lo! we have gathered, and we have spent, and now the time of payment draws near." But now I will put Queen Arwen Evenstar first, and I am ready to do battle on my own part with any who deny me. Quote:
The Half-elven, such as Elrond and Arwen, can choose to which kind and fate they shall belong: choose once and for all. Hence the grief at the parting of Elrond and Arwen."-Letter 154 "Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights-Letter 345 Arwen and Elrond were never elves. Nothing more can be said about it. Quote:
What is wrong desiring a peaceful life? The Vanyar and the remaining Noldor were the ones who went and overthrew Morgoth. They were not scared, but wise enough to listen to the council of the Valar and not defy them. Quote:
Arwen remained in Rivendell, and when Aragorn was abroad, from afar she watched over him in thought; and in hope she made for him a great and kingly standard, such as only one might display who claimed the lordship of the Númenoreans and the inheritance of Elendil. |
Quote:
The quote I provided was Tolkiens general view and not filtered through his characters. Quote:
Iīs like Sam saying for example that Rosie is the fairest in ME, that wold e Sams opinion, bt not neccessarily Tolkiens, or Galadriel saying that Celeborn is the wisest elf in ME, that is her opinion but probably not Tolkiens, cause he once said that abot Cirdan. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I donīt know how to explain, but isnīt she seen as an elf (Iīm not saying the she IS full elven) until she decided to become mortal? After her decision she stays half elven too, but then is no longer seen as an elf but a mortal women. Quote:
Galadriel and Feanor are the only elves described as being brilliant, I donīt think that there a dumb elves anyway, but they are seemingly extraordinary in that area, thatīs the reason they werenīt content in living in Aman anymore, Galadriel even more than Feanor is seems. I see nothing bad in her departure, I see a curious, knowlege- (slightly power) hungry "young" women who is looking for responsibility and something important to do. Even if she was looking for power, I donīt understand why some people see that in negative light. Itīs the method how someone craves for power which is cruicial and Galadriel wanted always the best for ME, that sets her apart from the likes of Morgoth, Sauron or Saruman. You can have the need for being powerful and still be a good person if you know when you have to stop. Galadriels "stop" was when she refused the ring. Quote:
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
1. Elrond is called a Elf friend. "The Master of the house was an elf-friend - one of those people whose fathers came into the strange stories before History, the wars of the evil goblins and the elves and the first men of the North. [Elrond] was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer. "And have you marked the brethren Elladan and Elrohir? Less sombre is their gear than the others', and they are fair and gallant as Elf-lords; and that is not to be wondered at in the sons of Elrond of Rivendell.'" Quote:
Quote:
If she acted perfectly then she would not have received the ban, that all the Noldor had. In him(Feanor) she perceived a darkness that she hated and feared, though she did not perceive that the shadow of the same evil had fallen upon the minds of all the Noldor and upon her own. Quote:
However, Arwen has right to claim the Queenship through Thingol. That apart the elves did not just accept leaders, because of a birth right. They rejected Finrod, Feanor and Galadriel herself even though they were the rightful rulers by birth. Arwen therefore must have displayed qualities for the elves to except her rule. |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
Quote:
IMHO Galadriel was right when she refused the pardon, because for what should she need to be forgiven? For leaving Aman? The Valar were wrong. Quote:
...and the very presense of Elrond himself, who is certainly not described as an elf (at the end of the chapter Elrond, the hobbit, the wizard, and the dwarves go outside to 'see the elves' dance and sing) and seems to not have been conceived of as an immortal or even particularly long lived at this point, - The History of The Hobbit: Mr. Baggins; Ch III, Rivendell. And in The Annotated, in A Short Rest: note 9, Anderson refers to a 1964 letter where Tolkien called Elrond's naming a "fortunate accident": Tolkien wrote to Christopher Bretherton in a letter of July 16, 1964, "The Passage in Ch. 3 relating him to the Half-elven of the mythology was a fortunate accident, due to the difficulty of constantly inventing good names for new characters. I gave him the name Elrond casually, but as this came from the mythology...I made him half-elven." "Tolkien needed a name for this character in The Hobbit who was an "elf-friend" and the master of Rivendell, and it appears he casually plucked the name Elrond. This would become a fortunate accident, because Tolkien realized Elrond was already a character in his mythology, and already the "half-mortal and half-elfin" child of Earendel and Elwing ("Sketch of the Mythology"). I'm not sure when Elrond's full character gets fleshed out, but it would not be anytime before LOTR." That all is copied from someone who wrote that in another forum. Well, I wouldnīt read too much into it. Elrond "chose to be counted among the Eldar" and therefore is included in that quote despite being half elven, with Arwen itīs a little more difficult, but alone the fact that Tolkien said that her and Aragons wedding was the third between the Eldar and Edain is prove enough for me. They are called called half - elven, not half-man, so it is reasonable if they would be included in such a general statement. Quote:
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
Quote:
In fact his quote about Elrond having the best chance out of anyone except the Maia suggest Elrond has a greater innate power. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I agree we do not really know enough about Arwen to judge, but we only know that she was very similar to Luthien. I don't get your last point? How is becoming mortal anything to do with character? Earendil would have happily become a mortal as would many elves like Galadriel's own brother Aegnor. All the Noldor Princes/Ladies were quite deeply flawed and this is why Elrond distances himself from them and would rather be Thingol's heir. |
Oh yes, Thingol was of course not flawed:rolleyes:
That Elrond distances himself from the Noldor because of their past, makes me almost not liking him (almost!) If it wasnīt for the Noldor leaving Aman despite the Valar cammanding them to stay, there would be no Elrond. One could ask for a little more respect regarding his Noldorin ancestors. I wouldnīt call them flawed (except Feanor and his sons), I would call them people with character. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
It says "IF" Galadriel could, Elrond could too, but that is not the case. Here's that next line... But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. It says Galadriel thought she could, but that was because of one of the Ring's key powers - deception. Galadriel was deceived into thinking that she could use the Ring for herself, so was Elrond, maybe even to a greater degree. That doesnīt make Elrond more powerful than Galadriel, actually i think itīs very unlikely that Elrond has more innate power, when you have in mind what Tolkien has written about her in comparision to Feanor. |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
And likewise, I love Morwen more than both of them put together, even though her fall was the hardest and grandest - perhaps I love her more because her fall was the worst. Quote:
Quote:
|
Quote:
I like the Noldor and they certainly did have character, but just like Turin and Morwen, whom resembled them so much; they had too much pride. In retrospect distancing himself is perhaps too harsh. He rather traced his heritage to Elwe over Fingolfin/Finwe. where as Elrond remained among the elves and carried on the lineage of Elwe. and then the note adds And Turgon; though he preferred that of Elwe, who was not under the ban that was laid on the exiles. Quote:
It does not distract from Galadriel's greatness, that Arwen was great in her own right. Aragorn actually uses Arwen's greatness to praise her. O lady of Lorienof whom sprung Celebrian and Arwen Evenstar. What praise could I say more Arwen was great and this reflects on Galadriel not just, because she was her grandmother, but also due to the tutelage Arwen received. Quote:
However, the point still stands that when it came to a confrontation based on innate power alone, Elrond had the greatest chance of victory. It is Elrond who is given the most powerful ring. It is Elrond, who holds out against Sauron's siege too. Melian was a Maia on par and perhaps greater than Sauron. Luthien was an elf greater than Sauron. Six thousand years and over 60 generations down the line, this same ancestry is still giving Aragorn great healing powers. |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
There cannot be any 'story' without a fall....So proceeding the elves have a fall, before their 'history' can become storial. Ingwe may not be the most exciting character, but I dare say he is a better elf than Feanor. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
As for the deeds, once again - the refusal for temptation is the deed. You count it as a flaw. I count it as a refusal to succumb to a flaw. In your eyes it makes one lesser - because she was tempted, and allowed herself to be tempted badly. In my eyes, Galadriel's refusal to temptation makes her greater - because she had the nettle to resist the temptation. The greater the temptation, the greater the strength put into resisting it. If you don't have a strong temptation, you did not display sich strength of mind and will. You cannot say that Arwen is better than Galadriel because Arwen was not tempted so badly by the Ring, because she was not tempted at all. You could compare Galadriel to Gandalf, to Frodo, Sam, Gollum, Boromir, even Aragorn to some extent, but not Arwen. Not in this case. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
From the fact that she gives Frodo the necklace, I see that Arwen has wisdom and foresight. Good qualities, but precious little when it comes to character. Any average elf of the TA has this, though perhaps is lesser measure. Her metaphorical giving her place to Frodo is only possible because she chose mortality. It is dependant on her main deed, the choice between Aragorn and life. |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The Vanyar were tempted by Morgoth just like the Noldor, but they resisted it and did not fall under the shadow. This is to their credit. Again it seems odd that you respect Fingolfin for leading his people to destruction over a wiser ruler who kept his people safe. The Noldor leave to fight Morgoth having no clue about his true power for mainly selfish reasons. The Vanyar leave fully aware of Morgoth's might for selfless reasons. I respect the Vanyar far more than the Noldor on this. We will never see eye to eye on this matter. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Besides Galadriel has good reason to be tempted, more than Elrond, she was really in a dilemma, we must assume that she thought of her self as still being banned and allowing the ring to be destroyed could probably destroy her last home, for before the temptation she wouldnīt know that she could return to Valinor. Elrond wouldnīt have this pressure, if things would went terribly wrong, he could take Arwen and flee to Aman, Galadriel never wold have the possibility, being banned. Quote:
Quote:
When I compare the Noldor to the Vanya, the Vanya sure had the more comfortable life, but the Noldor were the heroes, matter of histories, legnds and songs, they made the more important deeds, they had a fullfilled life, the Vanyar were always in their golden cage, they never learned to take care of themselves. I wouldnīt want the life of a Vanyar, that wouldnīt satisfy me. I can understand the Noldor, they wanted to see what they were able to achieve alone, without the help of the Valar, of course there is a risk, but they accepted that. Individual fulfilment was very important to them and for that they had to leave Aman at least for a time. Quote:
And again, WHY does the Noldor have to ask the Valar to leave? Arenīt they free? Thatīs really not their business where the Eldar are going and why must they give a good reason, itīs their life and they can do with it what they want. And if the Valar later would allow them to leave, why not allow them at this point to leave, does it really matter if they leave 100 years earlier or 100 years later? It seems to me they were overcharged. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I donīt see them being corrupted by Morgoth just because they wanted to leave Aman, they had dreams. Itīs true, Arda belonged to the Valar but I see no crime in the need to be a little distanced from them, because you want to make your own experiences, that doesnīt mean that the Eldar who went into exil didnīt love the Valar anymore. Maybe the Valar thought that the Noldor donīt love them anymore, but Galadriel for example, and certaily other Noldor, still revered the Valar very much. |
Another thing that occured to me is Galadriels pardon. What was the condition? Did she have to repent going to ME?
Quote:
Quote:
|
Quote:
Quote:
What power still remains lies with us, here in Imladris, or with Cirdan at the Havens, or in Lorien. But have they the strength, have we the strength to withstand the enemy, the coming of Sauron at the last; when all else is overthrown? 'I have not the strength.' said Elron; 'neither have they' Yes her defense is impressive, but how is it more impressive than Elrond's defense of Imladris? Elrond without the help of his ring defended Rivendell against Sauron in person with his entire army at his back. This was Sauron using the One Ring. It is Elrond, who takes out all 9 wraiths at the same time when they attempt to enter his realm. Quote:
So did everyone else just like Boromir. You defense of Galadriel is becoming to desperate. Everyone had much to lose and much to gain by using the Ring and if we are honest none more so than Aragorn of Gandalf. Quote:
Would not that have been a noble deed to set to the credit of his ring, if I had taken it by force or fear from my guest? She does reject this train of thought, but at the same time she greatly desire Frodo to offer her the ring. Characters with pride without majesty do not. Quote:
Quote:
There is more to life than just fighting and wars. It's a shame that more people would not be happy with living in a paradise with their friends and family. The Noldor were power hungry and influenced by Morgoth. In the end it cost them and they were forced to return to Aman anyway. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
If thraldom it be you cannot escape it: for Manwe is king of Arda and not Aman only. Quote:
Nor did the Valar punish them in any undue way. They refused them help and banned them from Aman. If the Valar had not shown mercy then the Noldor would have been wiped out by Morgoth and quickly returned to Aman to sit in the halls of Mandos. The ones, who remained would become a rustic people and slowly fade away. The Valar were more forgiving than they could have been. In the end it is the Noldor, who are desperate to come back and constantly pine for Aman. |
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:34 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.