The harshness of the following post is in response to the condescending tone of your last post. I know it is the Christian thing to turn the other cheek, but then again, chivalry does not turn its face from insult. I suggest if you want people to understand what you are saying, it would be a good idea to convey your thoughts clearly from the beginning. Of course, it would also be helpful if you stopped changing your mind so often.

Hmm, lets see shall we:

Apparently you are talking about the game. Or at least you aren’t at all clear about what you are at odds with.

Thank you for the much needed clarification. But do you mean war gaming? or Middle-Earth war gaming?

You are definitely talking about the magazine here.

So, it’s the advertisement that you have problems with? I thought it was the magazine itself or maybe Middle-Earth war gaming?

Definitely said books. Now I at this point understood “books” as meaning the whole corpus of Tolkien’s work.

Thanks for that useless clarification. A clarification usually goes from the more general to the more specific. Here you went the other direction. His reputation as what? a writer? a linguist? a father? a husband? a neighbor? an Englishman? I took it from context that you meant his reputation as a literary figure. I won’t make the mistake of employing common sense when reading your posts in the future.

Funny. That’s exactly what my understanding of “books” was before you brought up reputation.

Are you implying that there is some hidden agenda? That, maybe, I’m really a war gamer claiming not to be, or worse yet, the CEO of Games Workshop? Sorry, but no. That will come as a great pain for you, I'm sure… I know how much you would love to fit me and everyone else who disagrees with you into nice neat categories, like “geek” or “corporate cheeseba”.

In answer to your question, simply because I have all my life seen people ostracized by incredibly judgmental people just because of the things they like or the hobbies they enjoy. Yeah, I’m talking about “Trekkies”, HP fans, D&D gamers, historical re-enactors, war gamers, and video gamers, but let me tell you something, back in my day, the people in school who were ostracized for something they enjoyed, the kids who were called geeks, were the kids who read JRR Tolkien!

[ February 10, 2003: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ]

Ahw brother,

I saw what it was, I am so sad we don't have it here. Damn Holland.

Greetigns,

Anuion
________
Herbal Vaporizers

Look, I am sorry if I have insulted you, or anyone else for that matter.This post was never meant as an insult to anyone, apart from the makers of the magazine. If it was meant to be so serious, it would not be on this board. However, I would not know about what is Christian, as I am not a Christian.

I suppose this just depends on the way your mind works. I read it as the magazine, but if you read it differently, who am I to judge.

This, however, cannot be ignored. For one thing, you never answered my question. Next, I REALLY hate people like the person that you think I am. If you could even begin to imagine how angry this makes me. If I wanted everyone to be in a specific category, if I considered people with hobbies like this as geeks, then why would I have them? I used the word "geeky" purley because tyhere is no other word for it. Are you going to say that, in your perfect world, there would still be people who
thought of LOTR as geeky? Dont you want LOTR to be accepted by society?

It seems that you have gotten a little...confused. So, I will clarify.

I am against the magazine, and the way that it is advertised. I hate the way that it cheapens LOTR, commercialises it. I think that it further ruins the publics view of the books.

Happy? (though I think I know the answer...)

Haha,

controversy successfully stirred!

Bill Ferny, I agree with you about not stigmatising 'interest groups' ie. trekkies. (Though i might make an exception for competition wargamers - not one are you? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )
I think Eleanor Niphredil has a fair point about the way these things are marketed, specifically the bit-part magazine series, which I've been 'burned' by in the past. ('Oh we haven't stocked them since March' etc).

Bill, one of your previous posts on this thread claimed that Eorl's surname was Flynn. Does this explain the effectiveness of the Eothoed, being led by such an heroic filmstar? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ February 10, 2003: Message edited by: Rumil ]

LMAO! I meant, of course, Errol Flynn. A little too much Tolkien on the brain, ey? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I’m not confused. That is exactly what I understand you as saying. I also disagree with it. Just because I disagree with you, doesn’t mean that I misunderstand you.

I’ve already argued why this commercialism is completely justifiable. I’ve already argued that the product isn’t a piece of junk in the eyes of many miniature war game enthusiasts who also happen to be Tolkien fans. I’ve already argued that the price isn’t extortion in comparison to similar products by the same company as found in hobby stores. I’ve already argued that in the grand scheme of things, such a magazine and such an advertisement isn’t going to cheapen the reputation of the books, at least no more than it has already been cheapened by the fantasy genre in general, even though such considerations are strictly confined to the realm of personal opinion. There’s no point in being redundant; simply scroll up.

I will add this, however, whether you like it or not, the commercialism surrounding LotR at the moment is a sign that it has been accepted by society in general (well, at least western society). What does western society do with things it likes… it SELLS and BUYS them! Western society is, after all, the bastion of consumerism.

I did answer your question! You attacked the advertisement as being “geeky”. In your last post, you even went so far as to justify your use of the word, saying that there was no better word for it. That’s fine, there isn’t. Those were geeks in the commercial. Games Workshop sells products to geeks in the United Kingdom, Australia, and the United States. Geeks are Games Workshop’s bread and butter. However, most geeks, like myself, will be more than up front in admitting who and what we are. Your opinion (and I do understand it!) makes the case that “geeks” are the kind of people you don’t want associating with the LotR. You are welcome to your opinion, of course. That still doesn’t change the fact that you are wrong.

Here is Geekland’s terms! Lower your flags and march straight back to Mainstreamland, stopping by every geek you pass by to beg forgiveness for a hundred years of theft, rape and murder… I’m not finished! Before we let you leave, your commander is to cross that field, present himself to all these geeks, put his head between his legs and kiss his own arse!

[ February 10, 2003: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ]

'Nuff said? It looks to me like the 'discussion' on this thread is going in circles, more personal than objective. I am leaving it open just in case there is something Tolkien relevant to be said that hasn't already been said. Unless that is the case (and it had better be good!), the thread will be closed very soon.

Excuse me? I thought you said that I was entitaled to my opinions? When did I ever say that I was right? Surly your opinions are no better than mine? Who are you to say that I am wrong?

However, it is clear that you are never going to come round to my way of thinking, which, by the way, has nothing to do with geeks. Click on the URL at the bottom, scroll down a bit, and you will find out what I think about the term geek. What I am trying to say,is that Estelyn Telcontar is right. We are just going round in circles here. You are never going to agree with me and I am certainly never going to agree with you. so please, if you post again, make sure that you have something worthwhile about Tolkien ( by the way, I dont mean the man himself).

And my question was, why do you deffend it so passionatly?

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...2&t=001656&p=2

I remember my brother at 10, an ardent fan of Tolkien, he had by then read LOTR, The Hobbit, Simarrilion and Unfinshed Tales, taking up Warhammer models. He did not play the battle games. It was not as prolific then as it is now. It engendered in him a love of art, which he went on to pursue as a serious hobby. There were no specific LOTR models then, it took the movie for Games Workshop to begin that series. It helped to increase his concentration, develop a sense of pride in work well done, and the satisfaction of completing something by himself. My mother encouraged him, as she had done so by introducing him to Tolkien in the first place.

I, now a mother myself, am introducing my 5 year old to Tolkien, books, film and whatever media which will enthuse him in a subject dear to my heart. It is an innocuous past-time when some are not.

The people who play these battle games, I'm pleased to say, are polite and enthusiastic about their hobby. One sunday recently while visiting the shop The battle of Helm's Deep was set up for play by local enthusiasts. My 5 year old asked where was Aragorn, Legolas etc and to my surprise was lifted up and showm each of the models that he asked about. I was warmed to see that. No bad language there, no elitism or rudeness, simply a pride in work well done and a willingness to share the fruits of their labour with a very small but interested child. I have ordered a subscription to this magazine based on the experience I had with my brother and at the shop. I would be delighted for my son to be involved in a hobby which, despite appearing to debase Tolkien, engenders the qualities I would hope for in a young man, enthusiasm, politeness, self worth and pride in work well done. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ February 23, 2003: Message edited by: gilraën ]

Ressurection
 

Um... I don't.

But I'll venture my freedom to post to say this... after two years my friend still has his Games Workshop LotR toy soldiers. :D