I missed most of the bit at the end of hignfy after the credits when Sir Ian did a gandalf bit (couldn't catch what he said) and merton did the old western varmit voice again.

anyone catch that bit and can let me know what they said?

ps re Sir Ian's 'story' on Michael Howard. Hasn't Howard got the most weirdest, annoying voice on this planet? Just listen to how he says 'people' next time you catch him!

This Saturday? Ah, I must stay in to watch that. Although its just going to infuriate me when I see the clowns in the studio try to dismiss it as rubbish. Still, must watch it so we can discuss it here.

On the Lego Gandalf; "It looks like you're eating a seal!"

[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I find the issue of the BBC’s Great Read to be a bit bemusing. In particular I find it interesting that people take great exception to critics of the LOTR, especially ones who seem to either have not read it or consider it to be immature.
All well and good you might think but I find it somewhat confusing that those same people have absolutely no compunction about cheating on an Internet voting poll to ensure that LOTR wins said vote.
I am honestly bemused by what people want to achieve with this. It seems common to many Tolkien fan sites. Given that you are supposed to vote for your favourite book what does it say when you feel the need to vote for it twice, or three times or twenty. If it wins the vote because people do this what does it prove (beyond the fact that LOTR attracts far more geeks than do the other entrants)?
If someone decided they were a mega-fan of Birdsong and therefore spend a month solidly voting for it, until it won by a large margin would it make that book the nation’s favourite? Would it make it the best?

What is the point in rigging the vote?

Good point, Eurytus...but one person voting for Birdsong solidly for a month would not make it win. You can only vote so many times in a week (unless you have access to about 100 computers or something...ok that is waaay too nerdy). It would need more than one person, and maybe that's the point. I'm sure the HP fans are doing the same....well maybe, anyway [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] . I don't know. Anyone care to help me out here?! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

EDIT: Oh yeah, what does bemused mean?

[ November 10, 2003: Message edited by: Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1 ]

Bemused means confused or dazed. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I have only voted for the Lord of the Rings once. I assumed that every one else would do the same, but do you think it's fair that people vote more than once? I think that Eurytus has a fair point.
I also think that it depends on the group of fans as much as anything when it comes to which book they vote for. My mum loves Jane Eyre, but she's not sure yet if she wants to vote for it even once. Lotr fans, on the other hand, are a bit more obsessive (hope that doesn't sound rude) and vote as much as possible. Some people just vote once, and see it as having their say, whilst some people feel the need to vote as much as possible to get their favorite book to win. I'm not sure if this is fair, but it's a bit complicated if you take into account that it's allowed by the website to vote once a week so anyone could do it.
I really hope that made sense. It probably didn't but I hope people get the gist of it [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Sorry if I offended anyone, it wasn't intended.

Okay, I'll leave now.

He said "Morrrdor" with the rolled "r", as the pronounciation in the film has it. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Well, voting once per week (as I have been doing) cannot be cheating, since the BBC's own rules allow that. Of course, there are people voting for the book more than once per week, but this is unavoidable, whatever "sophisticated systems" the BBC has in place.

As I have said, however, I doubt that this will have a significant effect on the result. The books are on a level playing field (in that people can vote for any of them more than once). And each one of the books will have its "hardcore" fans who want to see their favourite do well in the poll. To the extent that this does favour LotR, it will be because the book has a larger fanbase, and because it has made a stronger impression on those who regard it as their favourite book (such that they are keener to see it do well than the fans of the others on the list).

The purpose of the poll is to find the nation's favourite book (not the "best" book, for that is impossible to assess objectively). And if LotR does win, this will mean that it is, at this point in time, the nation's favourite book, in terms of the number of people who regard it as their favourite and (to the extent that multiple voting does have any material effect) the depth of feeling it stirs in them.

Sorry but I totally disagree with this. To suggest that Birdsong would have a “hard core” of fans who would vote for each multiple times in the same way as LOTR is not realistic. The only book in the list that may have a similar cross-section of fans and which might encourage multiple voting is Harry Potter.

LOTR will encourage geek voting in the same way as Star Wars would in any movie poll. Does anyone realistically think that Star Wars is the best movie ever made? And yet it often wins these polls.

Like it or not, LOTR attracts the sort of hard-core geeks who will rig the vote. You only have to peruse Tolkien sites to see this. Every time there is any vote certain sites effectively issue a call to arms. “Come on Tolkien fans we can’t have Harry Potter win this vote” etc etc.

You cannot say that it is the favourite in terms of number of people who regard it as their favourite if multiple voting is allowed. Sorry but the poll will show nothing beyond the ludicrous lengths LOTR fans will go to in order to ensure their ‘baby’ wins.

The 'geek' stereotype. Harsh and unfair.

What is a 'geek' anyway?

Eurytus:"Does anyone realistically think that Star Wars is the best movie ever made?"

Sure, why not? Or is that too geeky and uncool for you, Eury?

Eurytus"LOTR attracts the sort of hard-core geeks who will rig the vote. You only have to peruse Tolkien sites to see this"

annnd? Beyond the elementary, whats your point? Its not really that important, and a somewhat unusually serious stance to take from someone who quotes Lionel Hutz in their sig
"You cannot say that it is the favourite in terms of number of people who regard it as their favourite if multiple voting is allowed"
So what? Its only a bit of fun man, a rough guide, a general yardstick to guage opinion, it was obviously never going to be anything more than that was it now? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Why not? Well because the story is pretty basic. The acting is mostly subpar. The directing is functional at best. In fact in only 2 areas does it really stand out. The music and the Special Effects.

But to call it the best of all time? Ludicrous. Whilst it may be some peoples favourite movie, favourite is not necessarily best.


The Lionel Hutz quote is not really a total summation of my character you know….

And yet why is it so necessary that LOTR wins? Why do so many feel such an urgent call to arms whenever LOTR or Tolkien features in a poll? Playing a game of my book is better than your book is nothing more than fun I guess. But if you feel the need to cheat to ensure victory?
Well nothing more needs to be said does it?

I would probably describe a geek as being the sort of person who feels the need to send out a call to arms each time something Tolkien is featured in a poll. Who feels threatened that LOTR could be bested. Who feels it necessary to call all Tolkien fans to arms to ensure it does not happen. Who in fact urges multiple voting to completely erase any chance of failure.
But if people feel that LOTR losing any such poll would impinge on their life and therefore such actions are necessary then so be it. What a pity people don’t feel equally motivated about things that really matter though.

Here in Belgium we had an election for "The best book of the year" a couple of weeks ago. It was organized by a weekly magazine and there was no restriction whatsoever, any book could be voted for.
The Lord of the Rings won, with an immense number of votes before the others!

sorry for going off topic...

[ November 12, 2003: Message edited by: Mariska Greenleaf ]

No, but your analogy doesn't work, as the purpose of this poll is not to find the "best" book ever written (an impossible task, as I said earlier), but Britain's favourite book at this point in time.

Precisely. It would not suprise me at all to find that Star Wars (the original, that is) was one of this nation's favourite films.

Incidentally, I do think that there is, or can be, a link between popularity and quality (as your use of the word "necessarily" suggests). Quality tends to elicit popularity, but it doesn't always follow and there are many other factors involved.

Of course I am not suggesting that there are websites devoted to Birdsong where fans implore each other to vote for it as many times as possible. But I am sure that a good number of those who regard it as their favourite book have voted for it more than once, and are perhaps doing so on a weekly basis, for that is what the BBC's rules allow, and that is what the BBC keeps telling us we can do. The same applies to any other book in the top 21.

As for mass multiple voting, I do think that you are being unduly harsh about LotR fans. First I would point out that those who are voting so many times are doing so because they love the book so much (which is hardly a terrible motive) and there really are a lot worse ways that they could be "cheating" (as you put it) in life. But, in any event, I really do not believe that there is a significant amount of this going on, certainly not significant enough to affect the result.

I agree that, if there were, then the outcome of the poll would have little meaning. But I really think that the numbers involved here (in relative terms) are insufficient to make any significant impact on the result. Accordingly, I still think that we can regard whatever book tops the poll as Britain's favourite book.

Eurytus:
"But to call it the best of all time? Ludicrous. Whilst it may be some peoples favourite movie, favourite is not necessarily best."
'Ludicrous' why? Because an auditor like you says so? Then what is 'best' to be defined as then? One persons Ben Hur is another persons cheese-fest, there is no real answer and you know it. Its very easy to condescend and criticise without offering your own choices up for analysis Eury.
Why are you so worked up at the few overexuberant Tolkienites who get a bit passionate about the voting, its a pity you don’t feel equally motivated about things that really matter though too.

"And yet why is it so necessary that LOTR wins? "

Never said it was.

The fact that this is the second time you have decided to use personal information about me to try and conduct your argument is puerile and sad beyond belief and hence this discussion is at an end.

???? This is getting beyond me...puerile? ??? And how does that close the discussion? Sorry, never covered debating in school. Sad but tue.

Says who?? However much I may agree with your other points and to whatever degree, I do think that is taking a stereotype waaay too far. Tolkien fans by no means spend all their time with their noses in the books (ooh, interesting mental image [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] ), learning Elvish, watching the films however zillion times...well I don't anyway...I have a greater appreciation of what is going on in this country and around the world than most people my age I know. Not that's saying much or anything...
But oh yeah...the discussion was apparently closed. So never mind...

You might like to read the thread again and then realise two things;

1. Yes, using personal information to try and beat someone is a debate is puerile.

2. I never said the entire debate was closed, I said any debate with people who do the above is closed.

I shouldn't think one would need to go to debating school to realise this.

Eurytus: 'Personal information'? Get real, if your info is so personal dont broadcast it all over the Web, doh! You are so very keen to diss and steriotype other people completely out of hand in this thread, yet are strangely unable to take a bit of lighthearted banter upon yourself! Says it all really.

"Diss"?

What has Ali G just entered the thread or something?

And there is no need to stereotype fans who feel the need to cheat to ensure that Tolkien wins in a book poll. They achieve that themselves.

OK, Luinadar and Eurytus, calm down. Please keep on topic and take any personal disagreements elsewhere before you get this thread shut down. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

I hope I don't need to close this thread to give the two above antagonists time to cool off - please resolve your differences by PM. All off-topic posts here will be deleted - preferably by yourselves, but if necessary by a moderator or administrator.

Eurytus, I'm not sure I agree that the so called second example of personal information was really so. What needs to be established is why the argument for StarWars was ludicrous. Surely it cannot be just because one person (in this case yourself) says so.

Explain why it is ludicrous without resorting to your own private prejudice. (I realise you did this earlier, using examples such as quality of acting, etc, but this proved inconclusive.)

i hardly think that several Tolkien fans voting over and over again is going to affect the outcome of this poll. i personally am pretty sure that LOTR will win and would have won without the obsessive voting. we must not forget that it has constantly topped polls for over 40 years. to get worked up about such a thing is insulting to those who do it, just as it would be insulting to say that those who only voted once hate it. this is not a matter of life and death.

You found it inconclusive, I personally don't.
By any standard you like the acting in Star Wars is subpar. It certainly can't be described as worthy of merit. Of the three leads only one, Harrison Ford, is any sort of actor. As their subsequent careers amply proved.
Some of the dialogue is shocking.
The directing is functional.
The storyline is very basic indeed, practically a fairy tale.

Now none of those things in isolation might prevent it from being the best film of all time but can any film suffer all these flaws and still be the best film of all time?

Better than the Seven Samurai?
Better than the Godfather?
Better than The Shawshank Redemption?

For me the answer is no to all those. And I could add many more.

I mean take the FOTR.
Is the acting better than Star Wars? Yes.
Is the dialogue better? Yes
Is the story better? Yes
Is the directing better? Yes

I yet I could almost guarantee which of the two would top a "best of" poll.

Pardon me for being all grouchy again, but the Star Wars discussion is off topic on two grounds. First, it doesn't concern LotR. And secondly, the purpose of the Big Read, as I have already pointed out, is to find Britain's favourite book, not the best book ever written. Relative popularity can be determined on an objective basis with reasonable ease. Relative quality cannot. There is no truly objective answer to the question: "Is Star Wars the best film ever made?", as it is a matter of opinion.

So let's get back to the discussion of LotR and the Big Read.

I thoroughly agree, Failivrin.

Good point, although there is no guarantee that it will continue to do so. Mind you, I would say that the longer it stays at the top of the poularity chart, the more we can, I think, begin legitimately to draw conclusions from this as to its quality.

There's a third reason, Saucy - 'Star Wars' is a movie, not a book... [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

OK, so everyone here would seemingly be perfectly happy to accept Birdsong winning if a hardcore of its fans decided to multiply vote.

You'd cheerfully accept the fact that it would now be Britain's favourite book, right?

I disagree. Art may be subjective to an extent but we can still ascribe levels of perfection to it.

Is the roof of the Sistine chapel a work of art greater than Tracey Emin's messed up bed?
I (and about 99% of humanity) would agree.

Was Mozart a greater composer than Andrew Lloyd Webber?
Again I think the overwhelming majority would find him to be.

Is the Lord of the Rings a BETTER book than The Sword of Shannara?
Again 99% yes I would think.

Can other films be quantified as better than Star Wars?
Again yes.

I do not agree that art is subjective to an extent, I believe art just IS subjective whatsoever. Levels of perfection can be given according to certain techniques that have been used or maybe to a level of difficulty that is reached, or even to the value of a work af art (but then I mean simply the price of the piece).
But saying that Mozart IS a greater composer than Webber, no, you simply can't, that is no fact. It is your opinion and that's fine (I also like Mozart better), but it's impossible to measure.


A little more on topic, I've already mentioned the fact that LOTR is Belgium's favourite book, but what does that mean? That it's the best? Impossible to say! I think people are very much influenced by the popularity of the movies and therefor more likely to vote for the LOTR book in polls like that.

Is there a special reason why Birdsong doesn't deserve to be voted Britain's favourite book? All of the books are competing under the same criteria before the same audience. I'm just going to be grateful that nothing by a professional footballer made it into the final list.

[ November 14, 2003: Message edited by: The Squatter of Amon Rûdh ]

So when Haydn stated to Mozart that he was the greatest composer known to him, he was wrong?

I will always believe that art can be quantified.

He wasn't wrong, nor was he right. He was expressing his personal opinion.

if birdsong had a hardcore of voters larger than LOTR, although i would be unhappy with the result (because of my bias towards LOTR) i would accept it. the only thing i would not accept would be if a straight copy of LOTR or any other of the top 21 had been included and that had triumphed over the original, but that has not happened.

Squatter, i also am glad that nothing by david beckham got into the top 21- remember great britons when robbie williams topped Tolkien and CS Lewis?

Well given that people have argued here that no piece of art can be considered superior to another then the fact that Robbie Williams beat Tolkein and Lewis should be fine.

I was not saying a large hardcore of voters. I meant a smaller but more hardcore set of voters who warp the result my multiple voting.
Would that be acceptable?
And what would it prove?

I voted for Wuthering Heights since it is one of my favourite books. But since we have one vote a week, I'll throw one to Lotr if you need me to.

But I thought Mariska was arguing that art can be ranked?

Ditto! I don't mind Birdsong winning, nor Wuthering Heights...I love both of them.
But if Birdsong were to win by those means, it would simply prove that the book brings out extraordinarily obssessive traits in the people it really reaches. (IE more obssessive than LOTR fans [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ). Because for it to win by those means, that 'small' hardcore would have to vote at least 5 times on every single computer with internet access they came across. Not to mention phoning every week from every phone...cheese man, just the thought of doing all that is exhaustive!

By golly Eurytus I think I'm about to agree with you for the first time on this forum! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I fully agree that the quality of aesthetic works is not wholly subjective. I wouldn't say that it is objective but it can only be subjective to a certain extent, as subjectivism is such a troubled philosophical theory.

ah dear eurytus; i was merely stating MY opinion that i thought it was a travesty that robbie williams ranked about 41 when Tolkien was 92.

i would be happy for the birdsong voters that they loved a book so much that they voted that much. verily it shows devotion to the book. however, i still want LOTR to win because out of the 21 that is MY favourite. so now i am off to cast my vote for this week.

Last night LotR had it's half an hour slot with Ray Mears. Did you watch it, and if so, what did you think?