I would read the letters but I dont have a copy and know no one who does...anyways, yes, he was mean, BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN HE WAS EVIL. Tell me, did Tolkien ever call Smeagol evil? And so what if he was usually greedy and mean, that doesn't make him evil and it doesn't mean that he was never good. And then, maybe Gollum was evil, but not all the time. If evil is sinful, I could call Sam an evil person. Don't take the word out of context. Go ahead and call him mean, greedy, selfish, even evil at times, but do not say that he was always evil. And I thought we were talking about the Smeagol part of Gollum. Youre really starting to confuse me here, so I'll just say my point again: Smeagol/Gollum wasn't 'no good' before he got the ring.

*yawn* I don't like repeating myself and I've said all that needs saying. My side stands on quotes and other references. Quite solid ground. G'night.

It is good to see you are still posting [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Hope you had a Great Holiday Season. I will be back with a more indepth post later. I just wanted to stop in and say THANKYOU to all of you that have posted again or posted for the first time. If you are new Welcome to the discussion. To those of you that have returned " Wonderful to see you again." Keep those Great thoughts!!! No need to appologise for lenghthy posts that is what this thead is for! TO MAKE YOU THINK!! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
I must return to Valinor But I will be back soon -----------YAVANNA

red, your quotes don't back up what you were saying, but I hate repeating myself too. So I'll leave my side at what I said too. What's the point of arguing if there's no one to argue back? Well, it's been fun. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

i saw the TTT last night and I thought Gollum was unbelievably cute. So i guess i pitty him, because I just want to take him home and look after him.

I pitty poor smeagol and gollum. I am relieved a little to see that others of you sorta know what its like to be in gollums "shoes", because i thought i was the only one. To want something but its bad and you cant really think for yourself cuz it takes over. So i pitty him and Gollum's Song often reminds me of my own situation, so i suppose i sympathise, even relate to him. I cannot say i would be nice to him, though i would like to think i would, well i cant even say i wouldnt kill him (although i really wish i could say for sure that i wouldnt), i mean i ve never been in that situation, so how can i know? I hope each time i think of Gandalf saying "many that live deserve death , but many that die deserve life, can you give it to them? then do not be so quick to deal out death in judgement" (paraphrasing), i hope that i would be like bilbo, and then sympathize like frodo in the second book, but would i be like sam an call him names? i fear i might. and would i have killed him if i were bilbo? who knows, but from the safety of my home i can say that i certainly pitty him. sorry that wa long and rambling i must be getting sleepy..lol fatigue brings incoherent messages

I would like to thank you all for letting me know how you feel about Gollum.
I believe we all need pity some times and we should sometimes return pity in others favour. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Once a again I thankyou

Now Lets ask a new Question How many times would you forgive Gollum before you killed him? Have fun posting..!! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] -Yavanna

How many times would you forgive gollum if you decided not to kill him?
~Yavanna

[ January 12, 2003: Message edited by: Yavanna Kementari ]

Hmmm....seems like you really want an answer. Well, I say it depends. It could be a few, a lot, or unlimited. I don't think I'd kill him unless I absolutly had to to save my life. But, I probably would give him the beating of his life if he attacked me after a fair warning. So, he wouldn't try it again. I've been taught to forgive, and patience is a virtue.

I agree whole-heartedly I just wanted to see how foegiving all of you are [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]~Yavanna

i pity him. he's a good soul influenced by an evil power. why hate him for something not of his control?

I never can be sure I mean I think he's a disgusting back stabbing creature but in other (twisted)ways he shows how loyal he can be even if it is to the one ring that could distory everything!I am totaly confused myself! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Gollum is a pitiable character. Not truly evil, but corrupted by the Ring. He is totally driven by his desire for it. It is this that makes him act in the way he does. He wants to kill Bilbo for stealing it from him. And, when he is with Frodo and Sam, his purpose is to keep the Ring from being destroyed and, when the chance comes, get it back. At first, with Frodo and Sam, he settles for being close to it and, for a period, is moved by the kindness that Frodo shows him.

Ultimately, however, his desire is the Ring and this desire was always going to prevail in the end. I suspect that, throughout his journey with Frodo and Sam, he was merely biding his time.

I have always thought that Gollum first hatched his plan to lead them into Shelob's lair when they were before the Black Gate (or possibly before), rather than when he feels betrayed by Frodo at the Forbidden Pool. After all, he suggests that they go through the passage at Cirith Ungol knowing that it is Shelob's lair. He might kid himself that he is Frodo's friend, but deep down he wants that Ring.

So, pitiable, yes. But he wouldn't be my first choice of travelling companion if I was the Ringbearer.

I pity him. As I was reading the books I really got into his character & I admired his conflict. In the movies, Andy Serkis did an amazing job of portraying him. Gollum is a truly pathetic creature. I feel for him, I can see how difficult it is for him. He's in a constant struggle with himself. Poor thing! [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

* Yavanna Bows*
"Hail friends forgive me for being away for so long but trouble stirs in Middle Earth that most folk do not know of."

I agree with all of you! Very valid and intriguing answers. I love it when you think [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Your posts are inspiring to me.

I hope to see all of you again very soon.
~*~*~*~* Yavanna *~*~*~*~

It was not completely Smeagol/Gollum's falt that he became as nasty as he is/was. The ring draws people to it for evil purposes. Frodo saw some good in Gollum that would show through every once in a while, like the time when he came upon Frodo and Sam sleeping next to each other. The "good" side, Smeagol, shows through. I believe that there was hope for him until Frodo betrayed him in Ithilien.

[ January 18, 2003: Message edited by: Duncariel ]

I definately pity him. My screen name is what it is because I do like him, not because I hate him. It's not his fault! It all boils down to Sauron.

I've had some more thoughts on this topic .I pity him because the one ring is driving him insane [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] and is killing him bit by bit but mostly I hate hime because he he was in his own words false and tricksy I mean, he led the hobbits in to the lair of shelab! [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] so my pity for him is degrading quickly!

I'm often too nice for my own good....so I feel very sorry for him and would probably even go as far as to take him into my house for a while if I saw him outside, freezing in the cold winter that's out there right now. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

Pity. And I also feel sorry for what he became, but glad that he had a chance to meet Frodo and let his good side come out. I don't think he died completely evil, and a lot of that was thanks to Frodo.

The scene on Mount Doom where he begs Sam to spare his life is really moving: "Dussst!" and all that. We get to see him in a situation where he knows he is about to die, but he does not have the calm resolution or clear conscience of someone like Théoden. I definitely feel sorry for him.

All of his evil deeds happen long before we get a chance to spend time with him, and I believe he is almost completely redeemed through his love for Frodo and his desire to be good Sméagol. Later acts like his betrayal of Frodo and Sam to Shelob were motivated by desire for the Ring. He had to see to both Sam and Frodo to get his precious back, although of course he did enjoy the thought of squeezing Sam's throat. He's despicable, but pitiable. Not, I think, evil.

I do not hate him.. Hate is a strong word... So I think I do pity him.. Inside him there is a good soul, but I don't think he should be too proud of his actions... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I would pity him. That doesn't mean that if he threatened me or became a danger to my life or a danger to the one I was bound to (like Samwise and Frodo) I would have to kill him. *shrug* How can you hate someone who is so twisted and miserable and filled with such longing?

Hullo all!
Sorry it has been so long I have had some malfunctions with my profile and such. I wasn't able to sign in and the message was I didn't exsist. I am glad to see you all are still thinking. I will be back more often now that I am ..ME [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
-(~<~> Yavanna

id slay him cause he stinks lol and he really needs a toupee cas hes balder than my grandfather!! [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

How many of you know some one like Gollum/Smeagol or have a friend like him?

HAHA! I used to. Chance after chance after chance I gave this fella. A job, place to stay, friendship with no expectations beyond hoping he'd get his act together. An old high school friend he was. Despite my efforts and those of others he continued to pursue his own twisted desires and brought pain to the lot of us... tricksy he was...

...so we pushed him into the fires of Orodruin [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

I would pity him because first of all if I were n Frodo's position I would have to believe that he could change. Seccondly if you've listened to gollum's song on the TTT soundtrack you would pity him to to. Finally he probably would have changed if he didn't think that Frodo betrayed him. He really loved Frodo till that point.

I agree with this because Gollum is a wicked, twisted creature more than capable of murder and deceit.
Smeagol on the other hand, has been corrupted and twisted into a sad kind of ghost figure always fighting(and losing) with his Gollum half. Smeagol is a very sad character who we all want to redeem himself but the thing that has to be realized is that for hundreds of years the ring has poisoned Smeagol and made him what he is now. It is illogical to assume that Smeagol can shake Gollum esp. when the precious is so very much in his grasp. And most of us know which personality wins in the end.....

[ January 27, 2003: Message edited by: hobbit punk ]

[ January 27, 2003: Message edited by: hobbit punk ]

What's all this talk about killing Gollum? True, Gollum is an evil murderer but why kill him? It's the ring's fault. Gollum can't help it if he's vulnerable to the the precious. Why blame him for something he has no control over? What if it were you?

Don't forget Gollum was 'Smeagol' once. Yes, he was greedy and mean and all that. But so are a lot of people. Why, I can name 10 people who are mean and stupid right now... but should they be killed for that? N.O.

Gandalf say:
"Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends. I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies. But there is a chance of it."

(warning: THE RETURN OF THE KING SPOILERS)

There was something in Gollum that was worth saving. The movie-Frodo saw that. And he did try to save him. The movie-Frodo realized 'the precious' was corrupting Gollum cuz he was starting to feel it too. Frodo knew that he was bound to the same fate as Gollum. And he would have turned into a monster too, had Gollum not stepped in. Would you have blamed Frodo too? Boromir tried to kill Frodo for the ring. What makes him any different?

The true evil in this story and the only one worth killing 10x, in my opinion, (besides Sauron) is Saruman. He has no redeeming qualities. All the evil things he did, he did on his own free will. (unless I'm wrong?).

If you choose to murder Gollum, then you are worse than him. Gollum was under the influence of Sauron's majick ring. What's your excuse? Hehehhee.

[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] just my opinion, please don't take it personally.
Half of the things I say are in jest.

CheeeeeEEEeeeers.

Ps- On second thought, even Saruman is not worth killing (unless in defense). I do not think I believe in ‘killing’.

I am glad that people still give others a chance. Tar-Palantir, you were the best frind you could have possibly been to this "Gollum" of yours, by giving him chances and a home. I hope the people I have offended give me a second chance.
I just want you all to know that a lot of you are good inside, don't let the darkening of the world take that hope in man out of you. Thanks for your time -(~<~> Yavanna

[ February 23, 2003: Message edited by: Yavanna Kementari ]

I pity him because it really wasnt his fault he's a retard

[img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

Well, I pity Smeagol or is it Gollum. Whichever one is the not so bad one. I think he never meant to do any harm until Frodo kinda betrays him. Gollum, on the other hand, I don't pity at all because he's full of hate and cruelty and would kill someone if he got the chance. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

AWW gollum is ADORABLE in the sense that he is evil and should die!!!!!Hes kinda bitter sweet in an evil way!!ya i noe thats confuzin cuz when u think about it hes so helpless and u want 2 be able to help him but u noe he'll only end up tryin 2 kill u or going evil 4 that i cry for him!! L8er DAYZ [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] bye the way limits on smiles how evil: ) : ) : ) : ) : ) : ) cant stop me now
lol l8er dayz again
[img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Well after much thinking i`ve finally made up my mind...i shall stand on Gollum`s side. I pity the poor being who were once ( i believe ) a nice chap that goes fishing by the lake until he found the One ring!

Gollum is an adorable creature....i wonder if there`s any LOTR soft toys around? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I pity Gollum, or Sméagol. But I don't feel any deeper compassion. He was a mean soul before he found the ring, they talk about it. People like that aren't cast out because they're different, they're cast out because they're cruel. I have a feeling that I would have hated Gollum before the ring. But the ring did hurt him (especially in the end). I don't think that the ring would have had such a great affect on Sméagol that within the few minutes after Déagol found it that he decided to choke his cousin right there. But still I pity him, I wouldn't kill him, or at least I don't think so. You can never tell. But pity and understanding is a bit different than friendship and compassion in my mind...

If there is any chance to become Gollum...would you guys want to be him say for a day?...I would love too!!

Oh, and Elfchick, I did listen to the sound track and I loved it, but that doesn't change what I felt when I read the books. I most definitely would feel for Gollum if I thought he was just like he is in that song! Rock on all you sound track people! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I pity Smeagol, he can't do anything against the power of the ring. And Gollum, I don't know what to think of him... I pity him too. It's all so sad... *sigh* [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

It'd be fun, but I think people will stare at you and say: "OMG! What is THAT?!" [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ February 22, 2003: Message edited by: Finnguala ]

Quite true Finnguala ...i did this once all day long trying to speak like Gollum and people around me were like " What the hell...wierdo... " stuff like that.

Gollum rocks !!
[img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

On one hand, walking a mile in Gollums shoes would be quite interesting!! On the other the feelings of being utterly alone would be enough to drive me insane!!

Think of it this way. Smeagol wasn't ALWAYS a bad guy. He was a wee hobbit lad once, he rested in 'is mums bosom when he was asleepin', just like all of you did.
He grew up to be mean. He had to learn it from somewhere. Perhaps his father beat him?

Jealousy took the ring from his cousin Deagol. The One became his master. It would have happened to Bilbo eventually as well. The hunger and need fo rthe One. It had already started and proved so before his one-hundred and eleventieth birthday.

What would you do? A power beyond your control makes you out live even the youngest of lads and lasses in your family. Age takes you beyond the conscious thought of time!!
Imagine, living that long without a friend in the world. You to would would go out of your mind.

Maybe Gollums threat to kill you,isn't just a threat on you, but perhaps in the struggle of a battle HE is hoping you will KILL HIM!!?? Hoping that he will lucky enough your swords slashing and lunging will pierce his black heart and end his terrible time soaked life once and for all. And at the same time fearing death. All you know is in Middle Earth. Being alone you recieve no conversation or care. So a threat on a person gets a response. After all any attention is attention.

Also, time brings wisdom to even the slowest person. I believe Gollum and Smeagol both tired of themselves. Gollum tired of his un-quenchable thirst for the ring, and Smeagol, tired of his life as Gollum. I believe if Smeagol were to get a second, seeing what he was already through, he would send Deagol away packing with the ring as well. Hind sight is 20/20!

I believe the pity that came from Bilbo's heart was a sign of understanding and guilt. That the pitiable wretch known as Gollum had taken the ring, as well as Bilbo had taken the ring from Gollum. And Bilbo understood what it was to be alone as well. For a long time Bilbo was by himself with no family. And since he had already taken the one thing that Gollum desired why punish him even more?

At any rate, it is good to see some moreposts on here [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Yavanna bows in respect to those of you who went diggin to find this thread.
Thankyou for your feelings and insight. It is greatly appreciated!!!!
-(~<~>Yavanna

[ February 23, 2003: Message edited by: Yavanna Kementari ]