Erm, the Grey Havens is in Middle-earth. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Techniquely i suppose this is true however it is a "seperate land" and is their fore usually spoken of seperately

As 'separate' as The Shire perhaps? I think they speak of it as a place in Middle Earth

I would go to the Grey Havens to get to Valinori think it would be the most interesting place to live.

When i say seperate i mean they take a boat tere [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

No, they take a boat from there.

Grey Havens is a translation of the Sindarin name Mithlond, the Elven harbour and city that lay on the Mouth of the river Lhun, ie in Middle-earth. Cirdan the Shipwright was Lord of the Havens, and it was from here that Elves departing Middle-earth sailed west to Aman, the Undying Lands.

I trust that clears up this issue. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 6:59 PM December 14, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

Who ever said it is right Gray Havens is in Middle Earth....I sure they meant leave Middle Earth via Gray Havens...

I personally would stay for a while.

If I were a elf I would go after a 1000 year tour of the regular lands..but other then that I would just stay.Theres always the Shire to visit,Rohan,Gpndor and othe cool plases to see and live in.

I think it would ultimately depend on the circumstances - if I was Arwen or Luthien, I'd have done exactly what they did, sure. But if it was just up to me and not based on any other people's actions or circumstances, I think I would probably be on the ship to Valinor, because I would want to take the opportunity to see something new. (This of course assumes that I've already been in ME for a couple of thousand years and am pretty familiar with it.) But I think a part of my heart would always mourn and be sad for the beauty that I've left behind.

I would say I would want to go to the gray Hevens. I would love to spend eternety in paradice insted of a living heck

if i were am elf from thranduil i would not leave middle earth

but just reside in the realm of king aragorn till the end of his days and then perhaps go to the grey heavens

Well... Sooner or later, all elves have to leave middle earth. There is no choice. The fourth age is the age of Men, and elves have no place - they must either go to Valinor or fade away and die - who would then go to the Halls of MAndos and then go to Valinor later on.

I'd probably tour Middle-earth for as long as Galadriel (from the time the Noldor returned), and then go to Valinor :p

I would probably do the same as Legolas - stay for a while, until it's worth it. I feel sorry for people like Gimli.

Hear, hear! :D

I would explore it until I have satisfied my curiosity, then I would sail to Valinor. But it's as someone stated previously, either way, all elves go to Valinor sooner or later. If not by sailing, they are reincarnated from the Halls of Mandos.

If you are of the Umanyar, you are not reincarnated. Once you die you stay permenantly in the Halls of Mandos. I think that's mentioned in Morgoth's Ring. It seems pretty unfair that these Elves are denied the chanced to stretch their legs in Valinor cause of something that happened thousands and thousands of years ago. I think it's mentioned in the same book the the Umanyar don't even speak to the other Elves in the Halls.

Middle Earth - that's where all the fun is. Sure, the elves *did stuff* in Ages past when in Valinor, but that just led to problems, and so surely Manwe has put a stop to all creativity now.

And I know that the 'left behind' elves of Middle Earth suffer bouts of melancholy, but with all of the new things that appear in Middle Earth (hobbits, humans, etc), I think that I could stave off the blues for a good while.

Middle-earth. Valinor is like an Elvish retirement community. Who wants to play shuffleboard and canasta for eternity? Plus there's all that bowing and scraping to the Valar. No thanks.

There's a *reason* the elves fled Valinor, and why Manwe (finally realizing the danger) walled the place off to us mortals.

'Tis very true, I actually forgot the Umanyar. :( It's been so long, I need to brush back up on everything. I do agree though, it is very unfair to them.

The points you guys raise does make one reconsider their choice...Middle Earth is pretty sizeable, after all. ;) A whole lot of traveling to do and places to see.

Morthoron...Picturing Lord Celeborn and Lord Elrond playing shuffleboard...it's priceless! :D

I don't recall this myself. Maybe I'm off but maybe you're thinking of the idea that those Unbodied Elves who refuse the summons of Mandos -- that is, Elves who had died but refused to go to Mandos in spirit -- were not allowed to be re-born. At this stage Tolkien still imagined that Elves were reborn as elf-children incidentally, but he ultimately abandoned this form of reincarnation.

The re-born reported that there is little communing of kind with kind, or of any one fea with another, for the houseless fea is solitary by nature '... and turned toward those with whom, maybe, if formed strong bonds of love in life.' Morgoth's Ring

As noted, Elves who die can refuse Mandos and remain in Middle-earth. Morgoth's Ring also mentions the Lingerers (faded Elves), but fading in the body does not equate to death.

Being any elf is pretty tiresome, really. How do they not get bored of living for milleniia, in Valinor or in ME? I'm tired of the world at the age of 13; imagine how I'd feel if I was an elf, destined to live for...well, forever. I much prefer humans.

I personally think I would stay in Middle Earth...
...Valinor just sounds soooo dull and boring...:D

Yes! You don't do anything except for have fun! Fun is good, but it's even better when you do other things as well. Not that I blame Frodo for leaving ME, but he's no elf, and I'm not Frodo. I wouldn't leave all the wonders of ME just for Valinor.

Valinor really does seem like an old-age home, doesn't it? ;) The only reason I'd go is because of that silly curse, that all elves will grow weary of ME eventually.

Lol, true that! Though I wouldn't mind recovering from injuries quickly and being tall. I'm really small :(

And I wouldn't mind being able to tell a finch from a sparrow from a mile away :)
My eyesight is pretty bad.

Oh yeah. I hate bad eyesight :(