Well, they both would have made very great leaders. Boromir would have been a very strong leader. He'd do well to run the city safely, if not calmly [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]. Faramir is an overall good person. He is wise, and fair. He is not quick to anger or judgement. They would be different leaders, but different isn't better.

I'm taking this straight out of 'The Letters', so if it discusses a bit of why and how Faramir could fall in love with Eowyn so quickly and easily, sorry. But to start, Faramir is the better leader of the two. For one thing, he reminded them of Gandalf, and Gandalf is indeed important as a leader, he is the chief enemy of Sauron.

Faramir grew up in a harsh time, under a strict father who obviously cared more for a different sibling. He had no mother (he barely remembered her) and no sisters, and to top it off, he had a 'bossy' (that's the exact term J.R.R.T. uses) brother. But still the people revered him as a man who makes correct choices and is greater than most. He was more flexible, more willing to sacrifice his own personal wants and gains for the greater good, and more apt to heed the councils of his colleagues, rather to just listen, pick through the facts, and make his own 'political' choices, like Denethor or Boromir would tend to do. Boromir would? I do not really know, I suppose after a while he would have gained more political experience, but for the most part (he hadn't moved past his 'heroic, valliant, warrior' stage), he was a man of action, and a man of great valor, and had no need for such things as policy so early in life. Faramir, however, who was used to being fairly subservient, but being just and wise of his own accord, would be a more popular (instead of elite) ruler. Indeed, Faramir through watching and keeping his own opinions quiet until he had other facts, was much better at reading people. This does not mean he would simply trust to another's opinion or plan. But he certainly read people well, even Eowyn, and he fell in love out of pity-another thing he had in larger quantities than Boromir. Faramir, as Prince of Ithilien, was chief of King Elessar's advisers, and remained in charge of home when the king and others left to purge orcs, or to maintain the still rampant easterlings. Boromir, I am certain, would have insisted on accompanying Aragorn into the battles, and for the better, as keeper of Gondor while Aragorn was away, he couldn't have hoped to keep people pleased as Faramir did. Boromir's death was rued by the people, he was a great man (my favorite character) and a fierce warrior, but from the reactions towards Faramir in the Return of the King, it can plainly be seen that the people of Minas Tirith loved him more. The blood of Numenor ran nearly true in Denethor, but not so in Boromir. It did however, run true in Faramir, and so he was the better leader, if not for his prowess for his thoughtfulness, if not for his boldness for his care.

I think Faramir would be better, agreeing with all that's been said so far.

Oh, and i'm not biased at all just because he's my favorite character and i have a huge crush on him, I wouldn't think of it [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

P.S.:I'm still thinking of going to new Zealand and lynching PJ for how he messed him up!!

Faramir, definatly. I compare the two as Athena and Ares. Athena (Faramir) was the wise woman goddess of war. Ares (Boromir) was the God of war. Athena and Ares, if in one to one combat, Ares would win. But when reasoning and being general-like came into play, Athena would be the victor.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-Strength without wisedome falls by it's own wieght.- Ancient Greek Texts

This is a very interesting and insightful discussion. It doesn't hurt that I agree with just about everything everyone has said either. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

I had originally thought Denethor's dislike for Faramir had stemmed from the loss of his wife, Finduilas of Dol Amroth, but she died five years after Faramir was born, so that seems unlikely. After considering, I think Denethor favored Boromir because he knew Boromir was loyal to him and his rule. Boromir could be trusted to back his father and his father's interests no matter what, while Faramir (who was more his father's intellectual equal), was less easily controllable and might decide to side with the King. In another thread, it was mentioned that in his youth Aragorn, as Thorongil, was perceived by Denethor as a rival. Denethor's father, Ecthelion, liked Thorongil more than he did Denethor. Thorongil and Gandalf were friends, Denethor and Gandalf were not.

From Appendix A:
So, Denethor probably saw Faramir (who was also a friend of Gandalf) as a Royalist -- someone who would bow to Aragorn's claim without a struggle -- and therefore as something of a traitor to his father's interests. On the other hand, Denethor knew Boromir "was loyal to me and no wizard's pupil ... He would have brought me a mighty gift." Denethor was right: Boromir tried to bring the Ring to Gondor and Faramir didn't.

In this Boromir and Denethor were similar: each in his pride tried to use/posess an artifact that was too powerful for him, and so was destroyed. Faramir, because he had no such pride, avoided that fate.

I think Boromir and Faramir would have been a good team if Faramir had been the elder. He could have then controlled Boromir's rash tendencies and directed his energy into useful channels. On the other hand, with Boromir being the elder, I don't think Faramir would have had much influence over him. First, he wouldn't have tried very hard, being content to let Boromir run the show, and second, Boromir would have done exactly as he pleased and not listened much. For example, regarding the trip to Rivendell, Gandalf said: "Boromir claimed the errand and *would not suffer any other to have it*. He was a masterful man and one to take what he desired."

Would Boromir have been a good ruler? Well, I think he would have been strong and competent, but not visionary. Faramir would have been better, for all the reasons everyone has already stated. The same goes for being Steward under King Elessar. While Boromir (once he got over his sulk) would have been loyal and brave, Faramir would be loyal, brave and *insightful*. I like the analogy of Ares and Athena.

King Elessar: Boromir, go take care of the Haradrim problem!
Boromir: All right, I'll go raise 10,000 troops!
King Elessar: Oh ... never mind.

King Elessar: Faramir, go solve the Haradrim problem!
Faramir: Well, I've been studying their culture and have come up with a diplomatic solution that should be mutually beneficial. Or, if you don't like that, I guess I could go beat them up. ... But that would be dumb.
King Elessar: Whatever you think is best.

Not that Aragorn would say any of that. It was just to illustrate a point. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Go, Faramir!

-Lily

Quoth Faramir-
"We are truth-speakers, we men of Gondor. We boast seldom, and then perform, or die in the attempt. Not if I found it on the highway would I take it I said. Even if I were such a man as to desire this thing, and even though I knew not clearly what this thing was when I spoke, still I should take those words as a vow, and be held by them.

But I am not such a man. Or I am wise enough to know that there are some perils from which a man must flee. Sit at peace!
And be comforted, Samwise"

[ February 22, 2003: Message edited by: Anborn ]

I also think that Faramir would be better. Maybe I'm not right, but Boromir was in a way more loved by his father, maybe treated better and approved of. He was more like his father and very proud and there's a certain rashness about him. Faramir is wiser and takes everything into account, thinks of the consequences for all mankind. He knows who is the ruler of the ring and who made it, that is, he finds out about it and never thinks of laying his hand on something so deadly, because he realizes how deadly and deceiving the ring and his master are. On the other hand, Boromir was taken by the ring's power, but from the very beginning, he thought the ring could bring only prosperity to his people, he doesn't realize what it really represents, that in fact it is a trap and leads to distruction. And I also think that Faramir wasn't fairly portrayed in the movie.

having now just seen the second movie, i have to say that i for one am very happy with PJ's Faramir -- i felt he was far too one-sided in the book (heck, both brothers were archetypes, really) and PJ made them both human beings.

NOW i'd like to see how he pulls the whole poison dart - critical fever - help, my Dad is trying to burn me alive sequence...

|_|] <-- it comes in pints, and this one's for you!

s.t.

Hmmm, that's an interesting thought! He was rather one sided in the book! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I think he will come across much better with more footage. Remember how awful Galadriel seemed in the theatrical release of FoTR. So much moaning and hand wringing over the horrible treatment the beloved Lady of Lorien recieved. Then the extended version... the wrongs were righted! That one shot of Galadriel smiling in the sunshine to Gimli, ah! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I am waiting for more good things with Faramir. Hopefully the actor can deliver! Boromir blew me away, if Faramir comes close to that, it will be wonderful. (IMO) Oh yes, I think Faramir was better fit to rule! The more thoughtful of the two!

[ February 24, 2003: Message edited by: Liriodendron ]

lots of good perspectives in here, especially on some of those posts that take at least two readings to digest fully. Now pardon me while i throw out this bone -- this has been bouncing around in my head for as long as this thread has...

Mention has been made of Boromir bossing Faramir around in the past, and somewhere -- i think on this board when someone quoted the Prof.'s Letters -- i seem to recall hearing that Tolkien himself had a rather overbearing sibling, who might easily have been an unintentional model (recalling similar things said about milord Steward as well).

Anyone wonder if he was perhaps taking some aggression out vicariously? (as in, "Ha ha, you pompous windbag, let's see you how like it when something you dismiss as harmless brings you to a shameful end as it hoodwinks you into betraying everything for which you stand!" or something like that) Yeah, yeah, i know T. himself insisted that there was no deep symbolism behind his tale, but... i've been digging through the appendices in the back for a good year now working on a fanfic involving these lads, and some times, when i'm trying to reverse-engineer the dynamics of their relationship, it does make me wonder.

|_|) <-- it comes in pints, and this one's for you!

I think Faramir overall was best because of his Numenorian characteristics - he was fairer, calmer and more valiant. Also the other question - why did Denethor let Boromir go? Well Boromir insisted to go to Rivendell.
Faramir got a few lessons from Gandalf, who is also a good judgment of character!

i just wanted to say that Boromirs weakness did not lie only in the ring, the ring only brought his traits out. As soon as Boromir saw the ring, his thoughts went to power and war, not for the end of an evil weapon. It is said that teh ring "improves" the skills and traits of the bearer. Could it be that it improved Boromir's fighting "spirit"?

They will both be a great leader. Esepecially in different circumstances.
Boromir is a great warrior. He'll a great leader in the time of crisis, or in the time of war.
Farmir, who is more like a diplomat and persuasive will be a good king during the time of peace, preventing the wars.
Their weekness might be Boromir might turn tyrannical king, and Farmir will succumb easily.

I think given the time in which these events take place, Boromir would have made the better leader as Minis Tirith was in need of defence and if it fell so would all of Middle Earth.

I would say Faramir.He is the kind of person who thinks before he acts,while Boromir is rather driven by his emotions.

Actually, one might say they complimented each other very nicely. A battle-hardened, masterful one, and a level-headed, thoughtful one. And though Boromir tended to be bossy, I think he'd be more apt to listen to Faramir's opinion if his father hadn't picked him as favorite and shunted Faramir. Actually, it's almost too bad Boromir died, as when Aragorn returned he would've had quite the council, a very effective, very good one for one. It's kind of a shame, Boromir didn't get to see his father go insane and commit suicide, and almost take his little brother with him. Things would've happened just a little differently, although I don't doubt Denethor wouldn't have despaired in the first place, and so it wouldn't have happened. But when Denethor had either given up rule to Aragorn, or died of old age, things would have been better, I think, concerning bitterness and decay of the kingdom.

Which brings up another question.
Would Boromir have looked into the Palantir? He was certainly as proud and strong as his father, just not as wise. Or would Faramir's opinion and words have been enough to sway him otherwise? If so, how would IT'S presence affect their leadership?

Okay everybody, a while ago it was said that perhaps Denethor loved Faramir more, but showed more to Boromir. I would like to point out that boromir in its roots seems to say "boro" precious "mir" jewel, while "fara" less loved or far away and mir is the same. So, therefore, as tolkien chose almost every name very specifically, we can see that this is not true. Also, Boromir was somewhat of a control freak in the book and hardly bows to the leadership of Aragorn and it can be argued that he desired the ring to become more powerful and would have been happy to take it. Faramir, howver, had the chance to seize the ring and only helped frodo and sam in their quest without trying to take it. A king who desired only conquest would have led Gondor only to failure but one who was willing to strategise and be valiant in battle when it was necessary would be able to beat use Gondor's waning strength.

I finally came out of lurkerdom, to post on this topic. I have been researching the relationship between Faramir, Boromir and Denethor for a writing project I am doing.

Although I am in agreement with most people here, that Faramir would be the better leader, I think that some times Boromir gets the short end of the stick.

Boromir was loved by his people, and especially his father. But the one thing that you keep forgeting is that Faramir loved him too. My question keeps going back to why.

In most relationships, the overbearing older bully is envied by the younger sibling, but not loved, at least not the way Faramir loved Boromir. I honestly don't see him as being the bully, but more the protector.

I have been trying to flesh out the story between Boromir and Faramir because we have none. Here are a few facts.

Faramir wanted to go to Rivendell, but Boromir persuaded his father and the elders that he was the one to go. Had it been just a glory finding mission, Faramir, I doubt would have thought so well of him. But in some ways, he was more torn up about the fact that he should have been the one to go, and that Denethor had decided poorly. Faramir's guilt was overwhelming, by the fact that he refered to it so many times.

I believe that part of the reason Boromir convinced his father to send himself instead of Faramir was because he was stronger and more travelled (accepting the vain, arrogance of his personality), but I would like to think part of him realized that Denethor wanted to send Faramir because he was...well more expendable.

I get the feeling that there is an protective older brother, somewhere in the character of Boromir for he of anyone would be able to see first hand the treatment Faramir was recieving from Denethor. I often wonder if Tolkein thought the same, giving us one view of Boromir in the first book, a window of another as he dies, only to be further explored, but the thoughts of those who were the closest to him.

Just some random thoughts...

Poor Boromir! he's really getting pounded on this thread. However to bring up a few salient points:

Clearly Boromir was the more charismatic of the two brothers. Beregond, Faramir's biggest fan, admits to Pippin that his hero was less esteemed by the people of Gondor than Boromir. And we mustn't forget the tremendous impact Boromir's personality and example has on the two younger Hobbits, who spend the rest of their lives living up to the chivalric code he taught them.

Boromir has, probably quite consciously, shaped himself into the kind of leader his people need at this critical time in their history, a Captain of War not a philosopher king. But to assume he was *merely* a warrior would be to make the same mistake as the Gondorim who assumed Faramir was 'merely' a scholar. However unlike his brother Boromir never got the chance to show any other facets of his character.

To his considerable credit Boromir, though accustomed to lead, accepts the command of first Gandalf and then Aragorn. At no time does he contest their authority, even when he doesn't like their decisions. He gives his opinions when asked then shuts up and follows orders like a good soldier. This indicates no small degree of self discipline.

Boromir is, I would say the 'born leader' of the two, able to inspire and capture the imaginations of his men and the people of Gondor. Faramir on the other hand while able to command obedience and affection from his immediate followers, and inspire passionate devotion in a few individuals, is probably too quiet and introverted to appeal to the masses.

The brothers would indeed have made a fine team, their strengths and weaknesses perfectly complimentary.

I completely agree that Boromir and Faramir complete each other. They would have made an excellent team!!

I also believe what Faramir Fan said about Boromirs love for Faramir. He saw that Denethor favored him over his brother. And in that Boromir tried to give him the love that and encouragment that Denethor wasn't giving to him. I see Boromir like that because of the way he cared for the Merry and Pippin. He seemed very fatherly to them, as I am sure he was to his brother. I believe as well that is why Boromir wanted to go to Rivendel and didn't want Faramir to go.
I think Boromir would have made a great leader. I know he would have. The people loved and revered him. He was the future Steward of Gondor. And would have brought victory to Gondor in times of war because he was a great warrior.

Faramir would also have been a good leader as well. He is very diplomatic and levelheaded. He would have kept his land well in times of peace because he was well spoken.

This might sound bad, but perhaps it is better that Denethor died before Gondor was restored to Aragorn. Denethor wanted nothing more than to see Boromir rule after his time had come to an end. He may have gone insane anyway knowing that his son would never rule, or finally seeing the King return to his kingdom after such a long age.

I believe that had Boromir lived Aragorn might have chosen both of them to be Stewards be cause one complimented the other so well, it would have been folly to chose just one half of something seemingly so complete. IMHO -(~<~>YAVANNA
p.s. Every one that has posted has had excellent points of view on this topic. GREAT THREAD!!! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

One point that hasn't come out yet is Faramir's seeming inability to stand up to his Father. He is somewhat cowed by Denethor's mistreatment of him. I always felt when I read the passages in Minas Tirith that he should turn round and just tell his Father a few home truths.

Now, I agree with most of what has been said about Faramir being the more wise and level-headed for the two, but it doesn't bode well for a potential statesman not to be able to stand up to a bit of bullying by a strong character ...

Agreed, he doesn't exactly stand up to Denethor, but he does get his digs in...

Given Denethor's position in the city, I suspect if Faramir had said any more, he would have been thrown in jail for treason...

Another poster brought up the point that I left out...Pippin clearly loved Boromir as well, proving that by placing his sword at Denethor's feet.

So coming back to the Faramir/Boromir debate, I would like Faramir as the one behind the scenes, plotting and deciding which course to take next. But if I was on the actual battlefield, Boromir would be the man I would want leading the charge...

But do you think that Boromir would have put up with the sort of jibes that Faramir received from Denethor? OK, so it's hypothetical because Denethor would not have treated his darling Boromir in such a way. But, had he been in the same position, I suspect that Boromir would have responded in a far more robust fashion than his brother ...

About that who is the best leader:

Didn't it say in Lotr that Faramir had the abilety to control man and Animal? You all must know that part where Faramir stays on his horse when being hunted by the wringwraiths. I think that this makes him the best leader. And Faramir might not have been strong, but agilety is better then strength in my opinion. As is stated by Pippin: The strongest man can be killed with one arrow. So I think Faramir surpasses Boromir at all fronts.

Greetings,

Anuion
________
Airstream

I think they would have been equally good leaders. They both have nobility, benevolence and courage. But, as someone said before me, it depends on which you prefer. Faramir might take too long to decide on an issue, while Boromir wouldn't take long enough. Sometimes you need the wisdom and patience, other times you need the brute force.

I really like how Andephelien put it, it's an Ares or Athena relationship. Now as to who I'd rather have? I'm not sure. Boromir is my favorite character, but I'd want different people for different purposes. If there is an invasion coming and the king is not sure wether to counterattack or to wait and see what happens, I'd want Boromir to take his place. If it was a case like, say... a soldier robbed the palace because his wife was dying and he could not afford the medicines, I want Faramir in power.

[ April 12, 2003: Message edited by: Cibbwin ]

I don't agree. You never need brutal force. Without tactic's brutal force is useless and without tactic's your not a leader. If you don't use them, you could might as well just charge your enemy head on. Faramir took out a large band of enemies who even had Oliphaunts with them. I don't think using brute force would have done that. Brute force did not help in any situation.

Greetings,

Anuion
________
VT series

Well, I see it along the lines of the Iraq war right now. And yes, I am in favor of it. Would you rather we wait for them to attack us, or flush them out? I would want Boromir in that position to make that choice.

And yes, stealth in some cases is a good thing, I agree with that. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

i think boromir. for me, faramir was just too perfect. boromir with his flaws made me love him. if we are talking about leadership then faramir, but boromir is my favourite

We ARE talking about leadership.
________
VAPIR NO2 REVIEW

Faramir was more calmed, level-headed, and gave careful thought to whatever he did. I admire him for that, although Boromir is alright, just misunderstood.

Leader-wise, I'd say that Faramir would make the better leader, because he is more patient, wiser and perhaps has better judgement than Boromir. Therefor he would probably be more well liked with his people. However, Boromir is the better warrior of the two (im my opinion) and as someone said, more heroic. But then again, Boromir would have made a pretty decent leader as well. Because he is such a good warrior and very brave that would also gain his people's respect. But like many other people, I still go for Faramir.

But my personal character preferance is Boromir. I've always had a soft spot for him, basically because he has flaws, and he isn't perfect. His heart is in the right place.

i cannot find the quote now due to time, but its said that in Faramir the blood of Numeanor runs nearly true. His wit, composure and decision making make him a much better leader. Boromir was more physical and stronger (which was admitted my Faramir, i think). But, i believe Boromir would be more apt to lead his men into a rash decision than Faramir.

~Namarie~