I agree. Grima seems to be the quintessential double agent, switching allegiances when it seems most convenient for him.

I still think however that Grima overheard Saruman insulting the Rohirrim and Rohan in general, and that helped goad him into the frenzy that it required to throw the palantir out of the window. Deep down inside, I still think that Grima loved Rohan, perhaps not your or my definition of "love," but his own type of love. It was there, buried deep under all that hate, resentment, and jealousy. It was the same thing that made him shed that tear on the terrace of Isengard when he saw Saruman's army (yeah, it's a movie example, but it still holds in this case).

I think it's much more likely that he was driven to fury by finding that he'd finally backed the wrong side and that he then heard Saruman refuse the offer to go free. I think he had trouble deciding who to hate more: the people that finally destroyed all his pathetic little-Hitler dreams or the arrogant b*****d that was refusing the chance to get out and put his horrible humiliation behind him somewhere far away.

In TTT, after Grima has cast the Palantir, Gandalf says, (although this is not a quote)that it was not something that Sauruman would have chosen to have thrown. Grima must have known of the power of the Palantir, and i can only assume that it was part of Grimasw love-hate relationship with Sauruman

Finwe said "Movie off-topic" reply: I think that Grima's tear was a tear of awe at the power of his lord, not of pity for Rohan or Theoden or any of the Rohirrim.

Nothing I've said could have been better. Exactly! That's why he did not join Théoden when Saruman was just unleashing his ten thousand-strong army. But when they lost...well...that put some perspective into Grima.

Later days! [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]
->Elenrod

[ 3:29 AM December 05, 2003: Message edited by: Nilpaurion Felagund ]

A wizard, Lindril Arvilya is never tiday. Nor is he messy. He keeps his Palantír precisely where he means to!

Why did he throw that? Very good question, Arvedui! There's a lot more to the Palantír than I realised when I first read the books!

I think that if you put yourself in Wormtongue's position, the most obvious emotion behind his action is Palantír envy. Imagine that your brother, dad, wife, whoever, spends all their time with this mysterious object that you are forbidden to use or even ask about. I dunno, let's say for argument's sake that a computer monitor or a television comes flying out of Orthanc instead.

Gríma was feeling a lot of rage at the time, and I think a large part of it was directed at the object itself. So I think his main purpose was to throw the accursed thing out the window, and secondly to cause damage to one of the many people below that he hated with all his being. In my opinion, he hated Saruman most, but that's definitely open to debate.

What I think is completely unlikely is that he That would have been completely hack, and more suited to Transformers or Daffy Duck than JRR Tolkien. Besides, I can't recall him ever being on the side of Gandalf or Théoden. And very few people (probably Gandalf and Aragorn only) could have foreseen the use that would be made of the stone.

On the whole I have to agree with those of you that see his fit of rage as a conscious betrayal of Saruman. I don't think Wormtongue fully knew the consequences of his little rebellious tantrum, but he did believe that it would end up hurting Saruman.

First, he would have to know the thing exists. Nobody outside Saruman and...Saruman( [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] ) could have learned of its existence.

But then again, he could see Saruman going into a mysterious room and staying inside for hours. Then his curiosity will be stoked as to what's so appealing in the room. The chaos of the Ents' attack may have given him the chance. As to what happened in his mind after that...that's what the debate is all about.

I'm not so sure. Tolkien typified traitors as "double agents," working for and (knowingly or unwittingly) against their cause.

Besides,I didn't say he wanted to work for Gandalf or Théoden. He feared both, thinking that they may hurt him even if he joins their side.

Which is why he refused Gandalf's suggestion to leave Saruman. But of course, in the Shire, Gandalf's no longer there, and Frodo offered him to stay, so he finally defected to the side of good.

But then again, the "Double Agent" theory was just one of my three suggestions. Might have been a combination of any reason.

->Elenrod

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 9:00 PM January 06, 2004: Message edited by: Nilpaurion Felagund ]

He didn't go good in the shire...he just snapoped and killed Saruman in revenge, then tried to escape. Sad, but what he deserved.

I did not say he did good in the Shire. I say he defected to the side of good. You could defect to another side and not really accept their thinking.

I think Grima was just mad and grabbed the first thing he saw (except Saruman) and chucked it out the window. Also he probably didn't know what it was.