<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If there is a thread that is for discussing why people hate apples, then I am saying that no one should post an opinion (valid or not) on why they like apples. I just don't think it is right because it doesn't help the progress of the discussion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So what you desire is a thread for slapping each other on the back, and nothing more? Where is the fun in that? Furthermore, where is the merit of such a discussion?<P>I don't think the problem lies in disagreement, but in the way people choose to express it, as well as in the way others choose to react to it.

I did say i was sorry! And didn't you notice the "J.K." I was only kidding Willie. I'm very sorry, I was in a bad mood that one time...I'm sure you remember...Oh well, life goes on, mistakes you can do nothing about except not make them again. Or atleast do your best not to. Those are me <I>wise</I> words. Sorry, i'm trying to be smart here...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> If members do post their one opinion on more than one differing threads (as Willie is arguing this should not happen) then we are going to end up with a lot of similar threads. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I can see where your coming from, Eomer. At first I got fed up with posting the same opinion about the films on countless different threads. But that's more a product of the same topic being covered across different threads. And also, I found my own views changing as I read differing opinions, and so my own posts on the topic have evolved over time.<P>Lush put it very well, I think:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> So what you desire is a thread for slapping each other on the back, and nothing more? Where is the fun in that? Furthermore, where is the merit of such a discussion? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Reading, challenging and sometimes accepting opposing views is an imprtant part of developing our own.<P>As Lush said, it all comes down to the way we express our opinions.<P>Bekah, I like your avatar. The Lady of Shallot by Waterhouse, isn't it? We have that picture hanging up in our dining room.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> So what you desire is a thread for slapping each other on the back, and nothing more? Where is the fun in that? Furthermore, where is the merit of such a discussion? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It is not a mere thread of 'slapping each other on the back'. It is a thread where we discuss what we didn't like about the movie. We all generally agree that we didn't like parts of the movie, but just to talk about what those parts were helps ease the tension we have. By all of us agreeing we see that we are not the only ones angry and we see other parts that we didn't like that we ourselves didn't catch. It can be sort of like an anger-management thread. And we don't have to have a disagreement to have fun. Yes, disagreements are fun, but also, just discussing similar views can be fun. Lush, are you saying that you have to disagree to have fun in a conversation? I'm sure that you can find a discussion among your friends interesting even if you all agree with it.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I don't think the problem lies in disagreement, but in the way people choose to express it <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, but it can actually be both.<P>And, this is to everyone; you don't have to respond to every thread. It can be a hassle sometimes, but I think that you'd be better off replying in a general thread, or only replying to those which you think you can really add to the discussion. It is easier to respond to a general thread since you can widely express your views, but in a more specific thread, you are limited, and if you want to express your opinion in all those threads it will take a long time, and it might not even be worth it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>We all generally agree that we didn't like parts of the movie, but just to talk about what those parts were helps ease the tension we have. By all of us agreeing we see that we are not the only ones angry and we see other parts that we didn't like that we ourselves didn't catch. It can be sort of like an anger-management thread. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I have to say that I agree with Willie. I've been away from the Downs for a bit now, partly because my computer was being cranky and partly because I was. I am of the 'camp' that really, really, really didn't like TTT. Most of my friends(some nonreaders) did like the movie. I can't talk to them about it because they think I'm just being stupid. I started reading threads and responding because it was nice to chat with other people who had similar opinions to mine. It was nice not to be called 'stupid'. Then things here started getting out of hand. Nobody called anyone stupid, but people's opinions were no longer just their opinion. Debating is fun, as long as there are no personal attacks involved. Discussing the same side is also fun, almost therapeutic, like Willie said.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> you don't have to respond to every thread. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Again, I have to agree with Willie. If I see a thread is full of posts that I don't agree with, I don't respond. Why rain on their parade? That's how I feel about threads that are obviously geared towards those of us that didn't like the movie. Let us be miserable in peace <P>I guess I'm at the edge of my soapbox. Sorry if it was too cranky. Chalk it up to PMS

My gift of Haiku to you, because I love you all so much.. <P>Never blow hot air<BR>Using your brain is sexy<BR>Tolkien is for fun<P><BR>Stay on the topic<BR>Wandering mind be patient<BR>Sharpness will follow<P><BR>Cherish all goodness<BR>Judge only the intention<BR>Bad one forgotten<P><BR>Balrog is wingless<BR>Eru lives with Goldberry<BR>Dwarf wife is hairy

I’ve been following this thread with great interest, since it addresses basic issues concerning the nature of forum discussion. Now it’s time for a word from this forum’s moderator. Many of you have given good advice about posting; I will try to sum up those points and set down guidelines for discussion. Before I do that, here are some of my thoughts on control and ownership of threads.

A good deal of dissatisfaction is generated when the discussion does not take the direction some of its participants would like it to. Either the one who started it or one of the debaters who feels very strongly about issues involved complains about others who “do not belong here”, in their opinion. They make comments like, “If you don’t have anything good (or bad, as the case may be) to say, then leave!” They would like the administrators and moderators to set up clearer guidelines, limiting the scope of discussions.

So who has the right to control the discussion on a thread? Who owns it? The person who began the topic stated its theme, hopefully making it clear in the heading so that it could be easily identified. The problem often begins there – is it perfectly clear what the topic is? Then the discussion is open for all. Anyone who wants to can post. The topic starter no longer has control over the opinions expressed. That is forum discussion culture. If someone wants to post only to state personal opinions and receive applause, not opposition, they should be writing essays. The whole point of a discussion is learning from what others say, and that only happens when we listen to different opinions. As they say, “You ain’t learnin’ nothin’ while you’re talkin’”.

The only person who has any further control over the discussion then is the owner of the site, in our case, The Barrow-Wight. With the help of administrators and moderators whose judgement he trusts, he monitors to be sure the discussions stick to the rules of the site. Those rules are plainly stated in the Forum Policies and Forum FAQ threads. They concern the language used in writing, such as “no profanity” and “no chatspeak”; the contents, “This board is for Tolkien-related discussions” or “keep movie discussions on the Movies forum”; and the manners used in contact with other members, such as “no flaming”.

In the light of those rules, I would like to set up guidelines for discussion on the Barrow-Downs.

1. READ!

2. READ!

3. READ!

To 1: Read the first post so that you know what the topic is. If the topic does not interest or concern you, it’s better to move on than to post off-topic.

To 2: Read the subsequent posts! Make sure that you realize what others have already said before you jump in with a trite repetition that bores all who read it. If you do not take the time to read what others have written, why should they bother to read your posts?

To 3: Read what you have written! The more strongly you feel about a topic, the more important it is to write carefully, proof-reading before you post. Write in your word processing program; save, reread, spellcheck and then, if you’re sure that is what you want to say, post it. Reread after you post – if you notice later that something was not appropriate, edit it to remove parts that could be offensive, or are subject to being misunderstood.

4. Search before starting new topics! You are not likely to get enthused answers on a topic that has been repeated so often that no one is interested; besides, old threads are well worth reading to see what others have said on a theme. If you do start a new topic, state it so clearly that all who read know what it is about. Be sure the heading states the topic – too many “I have a question” or “What about Elves” threads get extremely confusing.

5. Post on-topic! Think about the topic before jumping into the discussion. Try to make your post interesting for others to read; if you take the time to look up information and/or quotes before just saying what you think, your contribution will be worthwhile. If you do give your opinion, try to state it well, giving reasons for your choice. “I think, therefore I post” should be everyone’s motto!

6. Give your opinion on the issue, not on the other persons involved in the debate. Personal insults are not allowed, and putting a winking smilie or “j/k” behind them doesn’t necessarily make them more palatable. In addition, please refrain from attacking Peter Jackson or the actors involved in the making of the movies. Give your opinion on what they have done rather than saying “kill PJ”.

7. Use correct spelling, capitalization, punctuation and sentence structure. You do want what you write to be read and understood by all – and a correctly-written post is much more likely to gain respect. We can best honour Tolkien by following his example and striving for excellence in language. Divide long posts into paragraphs for easier reading. Edit afterwards to make corrections if need be.

8. Accept the fact that others have different opinions. Read them and think about them – you just might learn something! If you don’t agree, just state your own opinion; you don’t have to correct everyone else’s or argue until they agree with you.

9. If you don’t like the direction a thread has taken, move on! There are so many others for you to enjoy.

10. And finally, don’t take yourself or the Barrow-Downs too seriously! Does it really matter if you win an argument? We are all here to have fun!

PS – 11. If there is trouble on a thread that hasn’t been noticed by the moderator or administrators, please PM one of them, giving the link to the thread and stating the nature of the problem. We all have real life jobs, families and other demands on our time, besides time zone differences and the need for a minimum of sleep, so we can’t be everywhere all the time. Please do realize that we too are here to enjoy ourselves!

Esty, <P>That was an extremely useful summary. It reminds me a bit of the guidelines posted in The Shire, Rohan, and Gondor ("Read This Before You Post"). The guidelines in the roleplaying forums did a lot to bring quality up. <P>There is already Mister Underhill's "ANNOUNCEMENT - NEW BARROW-DOWNS FORUM POLICIES ". I think that an adaptation of your post above would be a worthy addendum / supplement to it. <P>Regards, --mark12_30

Great suggestions for posting in any section of the Downs, Esty – indeed, for posting anywhere on the net.

To kick it back to Squatter’s original topic, the importance of intelligent debate, I thought I’d chip in a few more points. Courteous, respectful discussion is a good thing. Discussion that is also intelligent is even better. One thing that bugs me about a lot of the discussion in the Movie forum is that people rarely seem inclined to go deeper than the most superficial sort of conversation. Posters come to the table with a general opinion about the movie (or an actor, or a line of dialogue, or whatever) and that’s it. And usually they’re not even willing to re-examine this broad generalization or take it to a more detailed level. In the words of the great Dirty Harry, “Opinions are like—”... well, I can’t really quote Harry the whole way; suffice to say everybody’s got one. It’s no great shakes to have an opinion. A well-considered opinion is another matter.

As a person who loves movies and the moviemaking process, there are lots of things I’d love to discuss about FotR, TTT, and the forthcoming RotK. In Books, we plumb for hidden shades of meaning in lines of dialogue, discuss the themes of the work, compare and contrast with other great pieces, admire particularly adept instances of Tolkien’s craftsmanship, and so on. Now granted, the movies don’t have anywhere near the breadth, depth, and complexity of Tolkien’s corpus, but we can relate the movies back to the books, and in the Extended Edition DVD, we have unprecedented access to the filmmakers’ process and intentions. It would be nice to see more Movie discussions move beyond a simple loved it/hated it opinion-fest and into more thoughtful consideration of specific aspects of the films.

Are you bringing your “A” game to Movies? You may want to check yourself against some of these guidelines:

BE SPECIFIC: There’s certainly room to get your loved it/hated it opinion off your chest, especially if you have no one in your RL to express yourself to. But have you been specific about what you loved, what you hated, what you thought could have been better, what you would have done differently, who you would have cast, how you would have adapted or performed a particular scene or moment? Just as in Books, if all you have to say is, “I loved it!” or “I hated it!”, then there’s not a lot to talk about.

BACK UP YOUR OPINION: Have you told us why you feel the way you do? Don’t just give an opinion, explain your reasons for feeling that way.

BE CREATIVE: If you didn’t like something and thought it could have been done better, tell us how. Have ideas on a director or actor who could have handled a particular scene or theme better? Who? What would the scene be like if that person had handled it?

Like all other areas of the Downs, Movies discussion will improve when posters push themselves to high standards of discourse.

wise witty debate<BR>many give all skill they have<BR>movie crowd younger<P>intelligent words<BR>hard in life is the finding<BR>high expectation<P>justly not common<BR>wonderful more rare of sight <BR>a treasure great<P>I was new here too<BR>ettiquette has been gifted<BR>polish required<P><BR>In other words, they won't all be great, so take it where you can get it. Besides, it's a true pain in the a$$ when everyone ignores the post you took an hour to write, trying to be tactful, thoughtful, intelligent and witty. Oh and I shouldn't forget form - perfect punctuation provides preferred perception. Or was that - proper punctuation proves persnickety perfection?<P>Cheers,<BR>Tar

You may call me a dreamer, but I’m not the only one.

[ February 28, 2003: Message edited by: Mister Underhill ]

People should listen to what Estelyn Telcontar and Mister Underhill. Especially Estelyn Telcontar since she is the moderator. I hope many others are reading this thread even if they are not posting and I hope they are paying carefull attention to this. I also wish more people would read the rules before deciding to post. Although most are newbies and will eventualy get the hang of it.<P>Sam:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> it's a true pain in the a$$ when everyone ignores the post you took an hour to write, trying to be tactful, thoughtful, intelligent and witty. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah, I really hate that. I don't mind it if they don't respond to it, but what really eats me up is the following posts that consist of "i liked it" or "i hated it" and thats all. All they really do is nothing but overshadow your post.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> proper punctuation <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>How hard can this be? It's so simple, and yet there are so many people who can't seem to do this. It makes the thread look sloppy and shows that people probably didn't put time or at least effort into there posts, which they should. And another thing is when people do stuff like use '3's instead of 'e's or '4's instead of 'a's. Your post will be much more respected if you keep it simple and proper. I know that I really hate reading posts like that because usually I don't find anything useful or interesting at all, but I still read it, as everyone should read each post. Respect goes a long way in life, and I'm sure it does at this site too.

I thought of starting a post entitled 'The importance of intelligent film making', but decided someone might think I was criticising Peter Jackson again.

The thing that gets to me in this forum is how so many of the threads just degenerate into "I hate this" statements with supporting arguments being little more than "I loved this character/scene in the book and PJ should be linched for changing it." All this adds little to anyone's understanding of the films.<P>The book forum is there to enhance peoples' understanding of the books. Shouldn't the movie forum be about doing the same? Disagree with stuff sure, goodness knows there's things I disagree with, but every thing in the films are done for reasons and I think we can better appreciate the difficulty of this task by trying to explore those reasons.<P>H.C.

Well said, H.C.!!<P>I'm still listening to all these fine views. I will keep them in mind as I post. It has been a while since I have last done so, at least intelligently, so I better get back into the knack of it then.<P>I like having reasons for opinions. I find them much more interesting if there is a good back-up for them.<P>Cheers,<P>~ Elentari II

Uppey uppey, with Dumbing it Down thread in view :)

I'm not sure I understand Heren. I find the Dumbing it Down thread to be of good quality.

But thanks all the same for reminding me of this thread. A helpful read to all. :)

Joseph Campbell once said:

The fact is, it's difficult, maybe impossible, to persuade anyone to your side of the fence if they have strong feelings for their own side. On the other hand, if you post your own opinions on Tolkiens work or on P.J.'s work and if you show your own enthusiasm for those opinions by backing them up with facts, quotes etc., you can give yourself a real sense of superiority by ignoring the purely emotional responses to it, remaining above it, and moving on. It's unlikely you will sway anyone's opinion by sinking to their level and insulting them or their thoughts. You may need to respond to something someone said, in order to clarify things or provide more detail as to why you feel the way you do, and that's actually a good idea, but if you find yourself clicking the "Post a reply" button out of an emotional response to something you consider stupid or insulting, it's probably time to move on to another thread, at least for a while. Come back when you've cooled down, or don't come back at all.

And remember, thoughtful enthusiasm is your best defense against being insulted or feeling insulted in the first place.

That's my opinion. Any takers?

I upped this one not because of DID's poor quality, but, quite the opposite - as a support for its good one. Reasoning - let people see we are not only able of having good debate, but also we care to have good debate, and it is not accidental that we indeed are having such

Besides, I simply like digging around and unearthing Sir Squatter of Amon Rûdh's threads. They tend to sprout new tentacles once brought back to the surface :D

Third reason - when I have limited time for posting myself, I entertain said self with archeology.

cheers

Wow! Another great thread that should be required reading for Newbies, especially the post by Estelyn Telcontar. As with some of the other threads regarding 'expected vs observed' behavior, I see myself pre-humously (the opposite of post-humously) 'mentioned' in the various posts, having violated various rules, bylaws and etiquette - I'm actually fearful of posting again...

...
...

Okay, fear's gone. :)

At times it's hard to remove the passion from the writing, as it - the emotion - may be what is driving the responses in the first place, or at least it is for me. That emotion may be anger, pride, joy, awe, glee, etc. As stated many times before, more 'hot' emotions are linked to the movie threads as the movies may have touched people differently, being more emotive (visual, aural) than the books - especially if you've never read the latter.

For example, the movie soundtracks struck chords inside me (i.e. the 'Shire theme' makes me think of my kids) and so those emotions and others evoked by PJ are running subconsciously inside my head as I post to the movies threads. Also, being a Gandalf fan for 25+ years, then seeing a nearly 'spot on' walking/talking depiction of him, and finally accepting/liking this version, I got really torqued off when he was destaffed, and so I posted pretty hotly regarding the same. The readers of those posts may have wondered what all of the bluster was about, having posted very acceptable and logical arguments, not understanding why I couldn't accept those. They couldn't see all of the emotional baggage behind each keystroke, and this may have limited the amount of actual intelligent debate I was capable of delivering.

Having worked through this, I understand that others may still be so afflicted.

Another thing that squashes intelligent debate is boredom. Ever be sitting at your computer with nothing better to do, looking for a thread to jump in on? Whereas emotions may hinder intelligent debate, apathy regarding a thread topic may not be a plus either.

My biggest sin (I guess that I'm confessing here) is having too much fun. Yes, there are more serious and in depth threads, but not all are, and so not all posts are written with the same amount of forethought, care or with the same tone. Sometimes I just can't help but post to 'poke fun' at a debate (not poster), especially when I'm not committed to either 'camp' nor feel that the eternal fate of the spirit of Tolkien rests on my words. At times ripostes in the same vane have brightened my day, and made me realize that it's just not that life-threatening whether Elves have pointed ears or not. Crafting/reading a witty (at least to me) reply makes the topic that much more interesting.

Other posts leave me in awe, being both well-written and well thought out. I typically just read those threads as I think that I can't offer much more than assent or dissent - then I run back to the 'newbie' threads with my tail between my legs.

Lastly, there are daily reminders that life goes on, sometimes poorly, sometimes not at all. This forum is a place for me to forget about that all for a while.

Anyway, "me too."

We should open a new thread, No we should`nt.
 

Does anyone remember the the Argument sketch from Monty Pythons. If we open an Argument thread, then that will keep those who just like to say the opposite, happy. Just feed it junk and watch what happens. I do jest by the way. For many parts of Tolkiens works there are many different view points and interpretations. Look at what has happened to religion, will we have wars in the future between Balrog Wingers and Non-Wingers, shall we descend into reading from great volumes of Tolkien Dictionaries, denouncing unbelievers to be burned at the stake. I suggest you read what posters have to say, gesticulate at your screen or laugh your head off, then write a calm respectful response, telling how your views differ. I myself think there is a Man in the Moon, WHY? because Tolkien says there was, and I will hear no heretic say different.

Amen to that

I myself keep from name calling because I think its extremely childish!However, I also am guilty from posting due to rising emotions and sometimes I get quite hotheaded myself.

I also think that dumbing it down is an intelligent thread and I enjoy reading that one. Sometimes I feel my temper beginning ot flare when I read it though and some posts posted by fellow BDers are a bit heated and get close to name calling although the thread hasn't degrated to that yet. (Thank goodness)