I agree Tigerlily, even though seeing severed heads flying over the walls of Minas Tirith would be fairly gut wrenching, it is definitely a must.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>the entrance of Aragorn and the shadow armies onto the pelennor battle fields.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Actually, the shadow armies didn't come upriver to the Pelennor Fields. They captured the fleet of Umbar at Pelargir, and Aragorn then declared their Oath to be fulfilled: "and swiftly the whole grey host drew on and vanished like a mist that is driven back by a sudden wind". The army that came with Aragorn was comprised of captives and slaves who had been folk of Gondor, along with men of Lebennin & Lamedon.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The Frodo and Sam moments are what really needs to be there for me. The heartbreak when Sam decides to continue the journey alone... there's already been spoilers about where Sam carries Frodo... just so many many more moments!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The relationship between Frodo and Sam is the most important element in the story for me. Their friendship and the sacrifices that each make for the other are the main reason that I've had a 37 year love affair with LotR.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> ~The Uruk-hai catapulting the heads of the dead into the courts of Minas Tirith<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think I'd die if they left that out.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> ~Theoden telling Eomer to tell Eowyn goodbye, not realizing that she lay dying beside him <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>*sniffle* that's so beautiful...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> They captured the fleet of Umbar at Pelargir, and Aragorn then declared their Oath to be fulfilled: "and swiftly the whole grey host drew on and vanished like a mist that is driven back by a sudden wind". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> But PJ will probably have them on the fields anyway. More effective for the not Tolkienistic people, unlike ourselves. <P>~Menelien

The scourging of the shire although important as a closing will not be shown. The seige against Gondor should be central as they have built it up so that even those who know nothing about Tolkien or the books already can say Gondor and know it is LOTR. The Witch-King is an essential part of the books however Gandalf's defiance of the Mouth of Sauron is very important, is gives to the charcter the true strength he has. (I mean he was given an elven ring of power) Frodo's refusal should be plainly portrayed. (He speaks in a voice clearer than Sam ever heard him use before) Shelob should not be underestimated, Gollum should drive us crazy with hate and pity, and Eowen and Faramir should act as it is written. <P>Respectfully submited.<BR> -Wolf Larson

Well... they're in a bit of a tight spot with the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. It's supposed to be really big and important, much more so than the Battle of Helm's Deep, but if they make it bigger, it would be kind of monotonous for non-LotR fans, and if they made it smaller, it wouldn't make sense, as it is more important.<P>~Menelien

You know, I never understood why Aragorn let them all bugger off after Umbar. Why not make them stick around and go and cause some grief at the Morannon?

I haven't read RotK for a while so I don't remember much, but I will be upset if the ending is messed up.

Lalaith- because that wasn't a part of their oath. They did what they had promised to, and then they just faded into normal deadness. (Is that even a word?)<P>~Menelien

The Paths of the Dead. It's a short part but probably one of the freakiest things in TTT (but will be in RotK)and the Frodo and Sam parts.

I hope you forgive me, I just wanted to say something-the shadow armies never came to the Pellenor fields. Aragorn set them free after the ships at Lebenin were captured.<BR>And it was Merry who was almost trampled, if you mean by Treebeard.<BR>Or is it that "AHHHHHH!" shot?<BR>I do agree, Sam had better be done right. RotK is probably the most emotional book, everything ends and the rain falls.<BR>"Some of us may meet at times, but I fear that all of us will be gathered together ever again."<BR>*sigh* :'( Sorry, just some pining here...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Sean Astin will recieve an academy nomination for his role as Sam in ROTK... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Of course he will! He will receive an Oscar! For Best Actor, too, not Best Supporting Actor! I know he will! He must! Or else I will.... Well he should have gotten one already, but that's another story entirely...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Sean better be good. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Of course he will be! He always is! Okay, I'll stop now.<P>I really hope they get "The Battle of Pelennor Fields" right, because it's my favorite LOTR chapter (that and "The Choices of Master Samwise" ). I also look forward to the Grey Havens, and I hope they include the statue at the crossroads, even though they probably won't. I look forward to ROTK in general, and hope it turns out to be the best of the three movies (it has to, doesn't it? ).

There was an interview somewhere with John Rhyes-Davis where he said from what he's seen of ROTK that Sean Astin is very likely to be nominated for an Oscar. I'm am gonna need the biggest vat of tissues ever while watching this movie. But I am waiting... I want to cry buckets... I want to reach emotional extremes with the characters.... that is important to me.

Gollum better bite off Frodo's finger/Ring and fall into Mt. Doom.<P>He should not alter the fate of any characters or make up silly fates for those whose fate is not clearly outlined.

Yes, I am very "right" with Gollum as a bad guy. A pitiable baddie, but the guy IS evil.I would find a change on the Crack of Doom part irritating, to say the least!<p>[ May 14, 2003: Message edited by: Liriodendron ]

I agree with Gollum being the bad guy...but wouldn't I love to see Sam give him a little push instead of Gollum just losing his balance...Not that I think it would happen

What I want to see happening at the Cracks of Doom is Frodo deperately reaching for the falling Gollum, almost going in himself (maybe Sam can pull him back) with a look of pure anguish on his face. It's not Gollum he is mourning of course, but the Ring.<P>I desperately hope PJ resists the temptation to turn this into a literal cliff hanger with Frodo hanging on to the dangling Gollum and then Gollum slipping through his fingers. I want Frodo to get close to grasping Gollum but I want him to miss.<P>H.C.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> ...but wouldn't I love to see Sam give him a little push instead of Gollum just losing his balance... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't see that as working. Gollum is portrayed as a semi-sympathetic character in TTT. The audience is given a glimpse of his "good" side and therefore feels some sympathy for him and pity for what he has become. Unless we see only his "sneaker" side in RotK (unlikely becaue his schizophrenic portrayal was a hit with audiences), Sam pushing him into the Crack of Doom will reflect badly on him (Sam, that is), and we certainly shouldn't be left with any bad feeling towards Sam at the end.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> What I want to see happening at the Cracks of Doom is Frodo deperately reaching for the falling Gollum, almost going in himself (maybe Sam can pull him back) with a look of pure anguish on his face. It's not Gollum he is mourning of course, but the Ring. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, that would be good, particularly if it is done so that we are left feeling unsure whether it was really Gollum or the Ring Frodo was trying to save. We want to think that it was Gollum, but we suspect that it was probably the Ring. I don't think that this would cause audiences to think badly of Frodo, knowing what he has gone through and seeing him finally succumb to the Ring at the end. PJ has to set things up so that it is entirely understandable to the audience why Frodo can no longer live in the Shire and why he therefore departs to the Undying Lands. (I wonder how PJ will make it clear that this does not mean that Frodo is becoming immortal - or maybe he won't bother.)

I think they should make the Frodo/Sam travel good, but not so 'emotional' that the idiots out there in the world will call Frodo & Sam gay. I hate it when people start saying things like that about a perfectly good movie ( & perfectly good characters/actors )! I think it is important to have Shelob done well, if not done correctly, she would turn out really stupid looking. I heard it is a great possibility that that the heads will be left out at Minis Tirith, possibly to help make sure this movie stays at PG-13...although I'd love to see them! Also, I think the Battle at the Fields should be done really well, but I fear it will disappoint some book-loving fans ( like me ); if only because of the added scenes were Aragorn is battling Sauron ( or the Witch King, I hope ), that will anger more than a handful of book fans ( I haven't made up my mind about it yet ).

Well I definately have a lot to say about this topic. First of all Eowyn and Merry's bit with the Witchking better be done well and PJ better not mess with the Wedding of Arwen and Aragorn. (My favorite part! ) Also the destruction of the ring. Oh, I like the part where Gandalf breaks Sauraman's staff and kicks him out of Isengard. I am interested in how PJ will incorperate Pippin and the Palantir into all this. Anyway I could go on forever. How do ya'll think that He's going to fit all this stuff into three hours?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Merry and Pippin's meeting in Minas Tirith, where Merry says, "are you here to bury me"<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I love that part, people make so much of Frodo and Sam's bond but Meery and Pippin are so close...Thats really sad. But I just KNOW it won't be there. I'm not convinced PJ is overly keen on Merry and Pip as anything but comic relief.<P>I think it's really bad that the Scourging of the Shire is going to be cut. It just shows the attitudes of Hobbits so well- able to fight in a tight spot. But then in the films Hobbits can't fight. Oh no, they just sort of stand around cringing. Thanks PJ. Also I like the idea that the Hobbits are so taken with Merry, Pippin and sam as they look and act like heroes but ignore Frodo. Well maybe like is the wrong word- it's very unfair! I was very upset that they cut the Ent Draught- one of my favourite lines was (something like) "If you mean to beat the Old Took I can't see why we can't go after the Bullroarer."

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I'm not convinced PJ is overly keen on Merry and Pip as anything but comic relief. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I hope that you are wrong. Lyra. I must admit that I have been slightly disappointed so far by the portrayal as Merry and Pippin as two rather interchangeable comic stooges. But their roles in RotK demand far more than this. They both become involved in some pretty serious episodes. Pippin and the Palantir, and later his scenes with Denethor and Faramir, not to mention Merry's run in with the Witch King, simply won't work if they continue to be treated solely as the light relief. Perhaps their separation will allow for thier characters to develop separately and with greater substance, but I fear that too little was done in the way of their character development in TTT for this to work fully in RotK.<P>With Merry and Pippin separated and becoming involved in more serious action, and less interaction between Gollum and Frodo/Sam, I wonder whether RotK will be an altogether darker film.<P>Mind you, I suppose there's always "Dwarf tossing" and "short Dwarf" jokes for Jackson to fall back on. Poor Gimli.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> But then in the films Hobbits can't fight. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Merry and Pippin sure get some kills in Moria and on Amon Hen, especially in the special edition.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I was very upset that they cut the Ent Draught <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Catch the special edition TTT then. It's apparently there.<P>H.C.

I've just recieved the fright of my life. Wolf Larson mentioned "the Scourging of the Shire", and for a moment the thought entered my head that for the past seven years I've read the title of that chapter wrong. Of course, this would be nothing new. After all, it took me till three quarters of the way through TTT to understand that Barad-Dur was not Bran-Dur.<P>Anyway, after assuaging my fears and finding in official print the title "The Scouring of the Shire", I'm thinking that the two most important parts of RotK are:<P>-Denethor's suicide<P>-An accurate and worthy portrayl of Pippin's story, without any comics or stunts. He ought to be the grave, depressed soul that we see in the books, not a jolly little hobbit on a holiday.<P>Iarwain

I totally agree about Merry and Pippin ! I want to see them a little more serious in RotK. And PJ better put in Merry as/ becoming Master of Buckland, Pippin as/becoming Thain or the Took, and Sam maybe as/becoming mayor of Shire. Also the Mount Doom part should be good and the battle and Shelob, and Aragorn becoming King, and everything in the book, almost, should be in the movie, I mean people who haven't read the books won't get how great it is! But how is he(PJ) going to fit this all in! This is worring me, badly, I want to see so many parts in there, but there is so little time! Does anyone agree? I wish it was out earlier!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> This is worring me, badly, I want to see so many parts in there, but there is so little time! Does anyone agree? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Nope.<P>Count the pages that still need to be covered and the ones that already have. He's pretty much right on track.<P>Return of the King is a far more simple movie to adapt than the previous two. In Fellowship so much had to be established, characters, plot, locations. It was dizzying. <P>Two Towers had to be twisted and tweaked to give it a sense of being it's own film with a beginning, middle and end. The whole country of Rohan had to be introduced with it's own set of characters and inter-relationships not to mention Fangorn and Ithilien.<P>Return of the King has only one major character to introduce, Denethor and his relationship to the other characters is a simple one. He's Boromir's and Faramir's dad and leader of Gondor. All the locations, Minas Tirith, Osgiliath, Mordor, The Black Gates and Grey Havens have already been talked about if not actually shown. The story has it's own natural arc, with a beginning, middle and end.<P>Personally, I'm not worried.<P>As for Pippin, I'm I the only one that finds him funny in the book too?<P>H.C.<p>[ May 25, 2003: Message edited by: HCIsland ]

No- Pippin is a funny character. But the point is that both he and Merry grow up and into their future obligations (which I very much doubt we'll be shown. "What's a Thain? What is he Master of? We were'nt told anything as background remember. It would be a completely new concept to burden the brains of non-lotraholics with)- and it seems we've seen precious little so far. Maybe this is to highlight the change when it comes? We'll see!

I think Merry and Pippin are already growing into more mature and nobel characters. I can't see that process doing anything else but continuing. I still think that Pippin will have his lines, as he does in the book. In Minas Tirith, Gandalf lambastes Pippin for not realizing that Aragorn is the returning King. Later, while Pippin is first being shown Minas Tirith his attitude is basically, that's all very nice but when do we eat?<P>These are funny scenes that I hope make the cut. Whether the movie will deal with Thainships and Mayoralties, it seems doubtfull, but one never knows. There's only so much that can be realistically dealt with. Overall though, I like the way in which Merry and Pippin have been portrayed.<P>H.C.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>and I hope they include the statue at the crossroads, even though they probably won't<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><A HREF="http://www.quintessentialwebsites.com/lordoftherings/movieshots_rotk/maxim_hobbitsatcrossroads_tn.jpg" TARGET=_blank>This picture should please you.</A> I'm pretty sure the statue has no head, but it's difficult to tell... ah well, we can hope. <P>I agree with HCIsland about Merry and Pippin - mainly because of their role in the last half hour or so of TTT movie. Especially Merry's little monologue about how "The fires of Isengard with spread..." And their faces during the flooding of Isengard - can't really describe it, but from the looks they wore, I saw two hobbits who were understanding the vastness and power of all that was going on.<P>Don't think that made any sense at all, but oh well... And I'll admit, it did seem to me like they were mostly there for comic relief the first time I saw FotR (this was before I'd read the books, so I didn't fully comprehend their roles in the story), but TTT gave them a bit more, for me anyway. But to each their own. We all interpret these things differently. <P>Now, for the topic at hand, the things I'm hoping will be done well, in no particular order:<P>1. Merry and Éowyn's battle with the Nazgûl King. I think I'm going to cry if Éowyn's wonderful line is taken out - "But no living man am I!" Then again, I'll probably cry if it is left in, but for different reasons. <P>2. Mount Doom. Duh. PJ probably knows his life is forfeit if anything important about that sequence changes.<P>3. Denethor. Maybe this is just my paranoia talking, but I've been a bit worried about he'll be portrayed. I always found him to be a fascinating character, and I really hope they don't change much about him.<P>4. Éomer and the Rohirrim charging towards what they thought were the Corsairs of Umbar, and the unveiling of Arwen's banner. That scene is so stirring and powerful, and I think it would look amazing on a big theater screen. I just hope it's done the way it should be done, the way it was originally written...<P>5. The relationship between Faramir and Éowyn. I really like how Wenham and Otto performed in TTT (I didn't like how Faramir was written in the movie, but I thought Wenham did a wonderful job with him despite that), and I trust both of them to do those scenes perfectly. I'm just worried about how their developing relationship will be written. Hopefully, PJ will put the proper emphasis on those scenes, and make their relationship as beautiful as it was in the books.<P>(I know what you're thinking - "Is she done <I>yet?</I>" Just bear with me.)<P>But the most important thing to me? Frodo and Sam. I'm reeeally hoping they keep as much of the original material as possible with them. From Shelob's Lair to the Grey Havens, I so very much want to see as much of the Frodo and Sam who were in the book as possible. Once again, I have faith in the actors, especially Sean Astin (it was him, after all, who made me originally fall in love with Sam). If Sean doesn't get an Oscar this time around... grrr.<P>Okay, just wondering, am I the only one who is really hoping that Sam will get to sing <I>something</I> in RotK? One of my all-time favorite parts of the books was when Sam sang that song in Cirith Ungol: <I>Above all shadows rides the Sun, and Stars forever dwell...</I> Alas, so few of the songs have been left in... I think Sean Astin will perform that scene in Cirith Ungol so wonderfully, but the only thing that would make it perfect for me was if the song was kept in. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening.

If anyone has seen the sneak-peek pictures on the official LotR site, I think that all the scenes that involve those pictures should be done well. <P>Especially:<P>* Paths of the Dead<BR>* The fleet of the Corsairs sailing up the river w/ Aragorn's banner flying<BR>* Grey Havens<BR>* Elrond's farewell to Arwen<BR>* Aragorn's coronation<BR>* Faramir and Eowyn<BR>* Eowyn and Merry killing the Witchking<P>And a whole lot of other scenes that would be way too long to fit in here.

I hope they include he piece where Pippin "dies". I loved It would be good in the movie, unless they made it *too* sentimental.<P>~Menelien<P>Edit: ack, I just said it would be god, not good...<p>[ May 29, 2003: Message edited by: GaladrieloftheOlden ]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I hope they include he piece where Pippin "dies". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think that you can rest assured, GaladOTO. You know how PJ just <I>loves</I> making his audience think that characters have died.<P>Mind you, he has more than enough of these scenes to keep him happy in RotK, what with Frodo (in Cirith Ungol), Eowyn and Merry (after the Witch King encounter) <I>and</I> Faramir.

Grey Havens, Paths of the Dead, The White Tree, Mt. Doom, Battle of Pelennor Fields, Palantir, crowning of Aragorn; Sadly, Saruman's death is WRONG!

The discussion of the Shelob scene on the spoilers thread caused me to become quite intrigued as to how the Tower of Cirith Ungol will be handled. For example, will Jackson have all the Orcs running scared of Sam, thinking him to be a great Elvish warrior? I hope so. <P>Also, I wonder how they will portray the Ring's influence over Sam. I see this as quite important given the deterioration that we have already seen (and will no doubt continue to see) in Frodo. Seems to me that Jackson is quire keen on portraying the adverse affects of the Ring on its bearer. Witness Bilbo's reluctance to give it up and his "ghoul" face in Rivendell. And this will be the first time (chronologically) that we will have see anyone other than Frodo as its bearer since Bilbo gave it up. So I should think him quite keen to show the affect that it has on Sam. I would love to see its attempt to tempt him with "Samwise the Strong" and gardens spreading across Gorgoroth. <P>One final thought. I wonder whether the Silent Watchers of the Tower willl be there?<p>[ May 30, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

I also hope the scene with Sam and the orcs in Cirith Ungol is kept. I think it's right up PJ's alley. Very visual and funny.<P>I also very much hope to see the effect that the Ring has on Sam. Thus far we've only had glimpses of how the Ring works. To see Sam imagining his gardens gives us a first hand view into it's power to deceive. We then have Sam looking at Frodo and suddenly he really understands this person he thought he understood so well. Sam has only had the Ring for a while. Frodo's carried it for months.<P>As for the Silent Watchers, I figure this shot is in front of the watchers.<P><A HREF="http://www.quintessentialwebsites.com/lordoftherings/movieshots_rotk/lotr2_saminshelobslair.jpg" TARGET=_blank>http://www.quintessentialwebsites.com/lordoftherings/movieshots_rotk/lotr2_sami nshelobslair.jpg</A><P>H.C.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I figure this shot is in front of the watchers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Really? I imagined that one as Sam confronting Shelob.

I really really want Grey Havens done well. Also the Pyre of Denethor.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Really? I imagined that one as Sam confronting Shelob. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It just seems brighter to me than the other shots we've seen of Sam and Frodo. It looks like a different location and not in a cave.<P>If we want to keep up with this conversation, perhaps we should move it to the spoilers thread. I think we're hijacking this one.<P>H.C.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> He should not alter the fate of any characters or make up silly fates for those whose fate is not clearly outlined. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Not like he's ever done THAT before **coughhaldircoughcough**

the "death" of sauron must be done well, i mean hopefully the eye doesn't just explode or something!<BR>and the wedding of elessar and arwen...in the book galadriel participated in the wedding but in the film (FotR) she said to aragorn that they wouldn't meet anymore.what have PJ done already!?<p>[ June 27, 2003: Message edited by: dancing spawn of ungoliant ]