It seems werewolf-games draw catastrophies to themselves like magnets... :(

Just as someone already off the game I'd just like to say a few things.


The basic rule says that people should not interact amongst themselves privately while a game is underway eg. like no PM's or such. The reason for that is simple and understandable but very hard to follow. Many people like to socialise both online and in RL with their mates even if a game is going and it's hard and foolish to try and deny anyone from social relationships. Like in my case, I may play a WW-game during a weekend / holidays when Lommy & Greenie are at my place and are in the game as well - but I couldn't imagine myself refusing their company because there is a WW-game on.

So the question - as I see it - is not so much whether you are in contact with other people in the game while the game is on but about the nature of your contact with those other players. And here I do understand why Mith feels hurt.

Yes, it happens every now and then that we (Lommy, Greenie, myself) fex. read the thread together and there are spontaneous reactions to things said in the thread as well as some calculated or forced ones made in that company while reading but we at least try to minimize that kind of exposure because of the danger lurking there. I mean it's probably one or two times Lommy has gotten a more than a good hint of my role because I have slipped something unintentionally. And that is bad, gamewise.

But gathering around to actually discuss the Werewolf - even if not specifically this one as you say and which I honestly do believe - seems to be a bit off the mark. And making a mutual decision that goes into the game just makes it worse. It's like some of the people had their own "meta-game" when all were not in place. So I can also see why some who were not involved in the msn-discussion feel left as outsiders of the game as well.

And clearly Mith had specifically said she wouldn't like to see the retracktable votes being used carelessly and that the unnecessary use of them was subject to a modfire...


I don't see a reason for anyone to restrain themselves from meeting each other in RL or in msn (or myspace or other Downs-discussions) but some restraint could be in place as to what is discussed while a game is going - even if it is basically "harmless".

Yes it was half the players (or just almost a half?) but still the other half of the players and the mod were outside the discussion which led into those votes that were "true" in-game.

Had that vote for Legate been spontaneous it would have been hilarious - at least to my view it would have been. But put yourselves into the shoes of a mod who realises that the people playing have been plotting outside the game to act in one way or another in the actual game. I'm probably too sanguine a person to have been offended by that personally but it would have led me to think about those who were not part of the practical joke and how they would feel about it.


Anyway I do suggest that you Mith let the game go on and maybe give those who partook in the Legate-vote an official "warning" meaning fex. that they have no longer a right to use a retractable vote or something like that. That way there would be a consequence and still the game could go on.

It would be sad to see such an interesting set up & story and a fabulous gathering of players go wasted just because of an ill-advised prank.

Hoping to see this game to the end!

Nog, it is absolutely understandable in a Mod's shoes. Now, I've never been a mod, I told Mith before this one, I don't have the responsibility. We all know the time, and effort, Mods put (especially Mith) to creating a great and enjoyable game. Was it not thought out and a bad prank? Yes. But sometimes knowing you've upset a dear and respected friend, when you didn't mean to at all, is punishment enough.

Most of the reasoning behind the voting was that we thought since Legate wasn't playing, it wouldn't be a "real" vote. :( I apologize if we upset you, Mith.

So true. :(

I was just trying to suggest an honourable way out of the stale-mate for you to continue the game...

Wow...seems I missed quite a Day.

As someone else who's now off the game? This is an awesome game. Conceptually, all the players, the mechanics of it, in all ways. I'd really hate to see it shut down, as it sounds like the rules were broken but maybe not in an unfixable way. Nog's suggestion is a good one, I think, if Mith wants the game to continue. Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

La Clemenza di Mithalwen
 

Right while Nogrod has put a lot of the situation correctly, I want to speak for myself.

I do not expect that WW game players do not speak to each other at all off game - I know many of us are friends (or related) and incidentally, for myself, I don't intend to let this effect those friendships. I do realise that this was thoughtlessness not malice but the fact is that you put me in a horrible situation and caused me a lot of upset.

This game of deception is based on trust that other than special roles discussion concerning the game is on the game thread. To have half the extant players form a clique to make an in game joke is unacceptable . This is not a private game but open to all downers not just the ones the mod knows also on LJ or Facebook. I hope you can see that the behaviour was unfair. It crossed the boundary of careless remark. I know that it must be particularly hard for some players not to talk but I know as a "lone" player you sometimes get the feeling that you are at a disadvantage so I have to say (without wishing to offend anyone) that I wasn't particulary sorry that there was only one player from some notable werewolfing households. Social interraction fine - discussing votes even joke votes wrong.

I wasn't ecstatic when I was tipped off about this incident but it was the IM aspect of it that was the main problem and how that would affect the players who were "out of the loop".

However I am going to let the game go ahead. No one is modfired.

Day will end 6pm tomorrow because frankly I need a night off from the lot of you. :rolleyes:

I told you I knew what you were up to, Boro. ;)

Posthumous victory!

Positive success that taking one for the team totally works!

Boromir you sly dog! By the way, I ALREADY KNEW I WAS A CRITIC! I really didn't need that piece of insight. :p

Anybody wondering about the reasoning behind the first two night deaths, Lari wasn't kidding when she said that was all me. I was systematically removing players who stood a chance of identifying my motives. I screamed when the phantom didn't stop talking after I'd offed him!

:D

Ok
 

Roles -

Kath, Boro and Phantom were preselected. I had one request for ordo status which I granted - the rest were literally pulled out of a bag. I nearly redrew when I saw that Fea was a wolf again - as in both other games but since it seemed to give a balanced game inc a newbie wolf (and since they live in such close proximity it seemed better that they were in roles where they didn't have to hide!!) I left it. My only real wildcard was Strongbow but I am told he was very active on his last game so I can only assume force Majeur and hope he is ok.

I know.. but I thought it might help you to knew he knew.

Wildman's dreams were Fea, Mac, and Aganzir I think - I'll just check.

EDIT No it was Fea, Kath and Aganzir

Just so you people know, I did try and help in a small way a couple of times. But the one strict rule Mith gave me from the beginning was not to step on Walter's toes. So I didn't feel that I could attack Boro.

I did, however, try to make him more likely to be Night-killed. Remember when I said this-
I was trying to make it look like he was an Ordo fooling the Critics into thinking he was Walter, thus making him a possible Critic target. As things were, I knew he wouldn't be Night killed, for I figured the Critics suspected him as Walter. So I tried to shake that assumption.

Oh bother did I say that? That was when I thought they were at a disadvantage.... gah

Yes. You told me I was free to do whatever I wished, except for "step on Walter's toes".

Yeah, I guessed he was Walter about the same time I decided you needed to go. I'm glad my co-critics didn't off him once I'd died, as I know they were thinking about it...

Speaking of, did one you save the PMs? Can we see them?

You shouldn't take me so seriously..... I am sure that must have made sense at the time.. I dont' think I meant don't attack him at all... oh well

I kept some but I will only post with the consent of the senders.

I did consider that reasoning as the game began (thought that perhaps you'd pair them as Lovers or Critics to make things simpler for them), but I thought that it was something that didn't need to be brought up. RL reasoning and all that, you know.

Oh, it's fine. I attacked him in my own way. For instance, I pointed out to everyone that today was indeed "lynch-a-baddie" time, and not "lynch-a-Critic" time, thus encouraging anyone who feared he was but Walter and not a Critic to just go ahead and vote him anyway.

It really was chance... I had a name list and wrote the available roles on pieces of polystyrene from my christmas hamper and drew them from the bag ...when I saw Fea and LAri.. I thought hmm..then no it works. I hadn't done well when I engineered the roles in my previous games and they had been completely onesided so I left it. I thought it had a good balance and I was sufficiently content not to restart when I had a late request to admit new players....

I meant the PMs between us critics (I didn't keep them, and I didn't get the ones from after I died), but I'd love to see some of the stuff others wrote. :p

I certainly have no problem with my PMs being posted, though you might need to edit some. I seem to remember my reaction to finding out the phantom didn't really die being a little... enthusiastic.

No, no... Unedited versions, please.

Oh that was classic ... on the lines of

Fea : Sorry but kill the phantom

Me: You don't have to apologise

Fea: I know but I am really sorry because he is so entertaining ...

Me: No you REALLY don't have to apologise..


MWahahahaaha

Ha ha ha! :D

That wasn't even the one I meant. :D

Sorry I dont' seem to have kept everything.... the bit about TP dining in hell for example.... but there was this... :D

About what?

(Fea)
My whole ridiculous goose chase event yesterday was solely me trying to figure out if he 'knew' something or if he 'noticed' something.

By the end, I knew he was special.

I was so hoping we'd bagged a seer...

(Mith)
Oh darling we all know Phantom is special ... he just doens't have any special power in this game other than that inherent within him.....

Ah, so I was partly right when I made this statement on Day 2-

Ha! I forgot about that.

As you can see, I always think the phantom is almost as special as he thinks he is. :p

Steady on there..... mind you I Boro's ego will give tp's a run for his money now...

You were so accurate with your summary of what I might have been up to that I just about spat my drink out on my keyboard giggling.

I was soooo irritated you were still alive because I had no idea if you were going to peg me for the baddie that I was. That was why I'd tried killing you in the first place! And then you were still conversant and had the added information of somebody having tried to kill you.

I mean, the ploy was sort of legit... I wanted to find out if you were gifted, and I wanted to make the village suspect Nog. Both of my goals succeeded, which delighted me. I also wanted to find out what you knew about Nog, because gifted or not, you tend to have excellent insight (hence my attempted assassination).

Sigh.

This was such an excellent game...

On the subject of Nog..
 

Only thing that rankles - of all the blooming times I have tried to get Nogrod lynched day one when he WAS a wolf.... anyway I think it has set up a good day 2

That was my comment to TGWBS after the double lynch day one...:rolleyes:

Great game everybody!

Yes woah! Good game everyone!

I do have some/most of the PMs...just not the ones I sent that I deleted. So here goes:

Fate dictates
that you, Fea, Lariren, and Gwathagor are my wolves (critics in this game) - what are the odds Fea but I swear it is the way the cookie crumbled.

You get to talk at night and have the help of Walter Plinge - a cobbler/spy. Walter will dead-drop a snippet of information at the beginning of each night game night that he lives - bit like a reverse seer. Try not to kill him too soon

Fellow wolves,

I won't be around today (I'm watching the LotR Trilogy straight through), but please PM away. I'll read everything this evening.

-Gwath


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwathagor
Fellow wolves,

I won't be around today (I'm watching the LotR Trilogy straight through), but please PM away. I'll read everything this evening.
No worries. Lariren and I are doing first-day-of-class things, like going to classes, and then running haven't-been-here-in-a-month errands.

Obviously (or maybe not obviously, for Lariren's benefit) we don't get to choose a kill on Night One, only discuss strategies. Here's the goal for Day One: don't get killed.

Lariren, you'll get the benefit of the doubt, particularly if I plant the seed of, "I picked the roles in my game. Do you really think Mith would choose a brand new player to be a wolf in her revival game of old faces?"

I'd go with asking a lot of questions, figuring out the rules, making yourself known to people, but without them forgetting that you've never done this before. Everybody feels guilty about killing a newbie on the first Day.

Gwath, I have complete faith in your ability to not-die.

Me? Well, if the phantom or Boro (or Brinn! She was so my downfall in the last game I played for real...) are Seer, I'm distinctly in trouble, so unless I come up with a foolproof way of getting village trust (like give them one of you on a silver platter), don't support me too publicly. I'm bad news to be friends with, especially if you're on my side.

Night Two we can deal with when Night Two rolls around. Nights are for Seer-Hunting, but also for covering your tracks.

Since there's not much to discuss, and I've got a new issue of Cosmo to read, I'll leave off for now.

Re: Fate dictates
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lariren Shadow
It could also be good to through out there that it would be stupid to give the newbie a wolf roll as well as Fea being one.
We could do that... if we wanted to suggest to them that I'm a wolf.

Which we don't.

Because we don't want me to die.

Or at least I don't want me to die.

I say we play it by ear, aim for self-preservation, and pretend none of us have ever had anything to do with each other.
Fea

Night 2
Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha! Double lynch! Oh man! Ha ha ha!

Anyway - Fea, what was all that stuff between you and the Phantom? It made me feel awfully stupid.

-Gwath

Re: Night 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwathagor
Anyway - Fea, what was all that stuff between you and the Phantom? It made me feel awfully stupid.
Yeah, sorry about that... I'm just a sadist and I thought it would be funny to send him off on a chase through all of his posts so he'd learn what it's like to try and critically assess everything he says.

In summary: it was almost entirely just me giggling evilly over here.

However it was me playing jokes with a purpose behind them.

Get this: I was talking about how on page three the phantom said "*whispers to werewolves* You want to kill Nog."

It just seemed downright weird that he would name a specific player to tease the wolves with, you know? Especially after having said point blank on page one that Nogrod would "help me catch the critics." The phantom rarely makes direct statements unless he has direct knowledge. Notice how he said that a bunch of us were up to something, that he's not allowed to talk to Boro, that Sally's innocent, but will make mistakes. He usually hedges. And he was being exceptionally blatant.

So I figured that it didn't actually mean anything about Nog, but that it might mean something about the phantom, but I also remembered Nog saying he was the divo, and thinking "It would be funny if he really was."

So my point of that ridiculous series of vaguenesses was to get the phantom to lead me to anything he'd said that was actually of any substance so that I could make a better informed guess of his role. I didn't expect him at any point to come and say anything real, but I was intending for him to think I'd spotted what he said about Nog 'singing' (which Boro also noticed) , and let me know if he was goofing around or if he had (wink wink) solid knowledge of anything.

My secondary goal, besides to learn whether or not the phantom is gifted (I think yes), was to direct the village to kill off Nogrod, who is always a threat, thereby curing us of a player who is a dangerous ordo without us having to do any of the dirty work, and thereby incriminating the phantom (and, conveniently, Boro) while we're at it.

Of course I never could have suspected the fantastic double lynch bandwagon that ended up happening. I only hope we didn't nail our Cobbler in the fray.

But yeah...

That thing with the phantom was me testing him to see if he would drop a few gifted hints, which he did. So now all I have to do is figure out if they were real hints, or if they were "kill me and give the seer another night" hints.

Now I eagerly await the narration...

Re: Night 2
Woo hoo! Double ordo kill!
Gwath

Gwath:
Re: Night 2
Do we want to try to kill a gifted (and risk attacking dear Walter or the diva/o), or do we want to shoot for an ordo? I am tempted to suggest that we kill the phantom, if only for his remark toDay that he could direct the nightly kills through clever manipulation.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Lariren Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwathagor
Woo hoo! Double ordo kill!


Now who do we kill tonight?

Fea:
Re: Night 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwathagor
I am tempted to suggest that we kill the phantom, if only for his remark toDay that he could direct the nightly kills through clever manipulation.
I say yes, we kill the phantom. Because I know well that he can manipulate. Mostly just because while I'd LOVE to keep him around for entertainment value, who would ever think I'd choose to kill him at night?

Anyway...

Yes, I think we should kill the phantom. We can always use our knowledge of Mac's ordo-ness to our advantage later. Why kill off a perfectly good piece of cannon-fodder early?

Gwath:
Re: Night 2
Ok, well, let's kill the Phantom then. I doubt that he is the divo - surely our Mod wouldn't do anything so...obvious? Intuitive? Expected? I really couldn't say whether he's the cobbler or not, but I'm willing to risk it.

And, hey, Lariren, we can talk about WHATEVER we like in our PMs. But, yeah, you've got the right idea.

-Gwath


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lariren Shadow

Sounds like a good plan. Plus killing the phantom kind of throws suspicions off of all of us. He might not think Fea would kill him and I'm under his "protection" and he seems to not think anything bad of Gwath. There are a lot of others out there attacking him, we could use that to our advantage. At least I think there are other suspicious of him. I really hope that made sense.

Plus I have a feeling Ilya and Boro are the lovers.

And tell me if that's not what this messaging is for.

Fea:
Re: Night 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lariren Shadow
And tell me if that's not what this messaging is for.
Nope. You're dead on. Good girl.

Fea:
Re: Night 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwathagor
Ok, well, let's kill the Phantom then.
Okay, I'm on it.

Fea:
Tonight
Lari and I would really like to pick off TGWBSuspecting Me.

Do you mind/have a different preference?

Gwath:
Re: Tonight
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil
Lari and I would really like to pick off TGWBSuspecting Me.

Do you mind/have a different preference?
Why him in particular? Do you think people are likely to listen to him? If so, then let's by all means kill him.

Fea:
Re: Tonight
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwathagor
Why him in particular? Do you think people are likely to listen to him? If so, then let's by all means kill him.
Him in particular because if he's the Seer, I'd love to knock him off now, and if he's not the Seer, it still keeps him from pointing out with such enthusiasm that I'm obviously evil.

I'm always willing to take my chances with "Would Fea have done that?" but I sort of hate not cleaning up threats while it's still easy to do so.

Gwath:
FW: Tonight
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwathagor
Why him in particular? Do you think people are likely to listen to him? If so, then let's by all means kill him.
Him in particular because if he's the Seer, I'd love to knock him off now, and if he's not the Seer, it still keeps him from pointing out with such enthusiasm that I'm obviously evil.

I'm always willing to take my chances with "Would Fea have done that?" but I sort of hate not cleaning up threats while it's still easy to do so.
Ok, let's do it and see how it turns out.

Gwath:
Re: Who do we want to kill?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lariren Shadow
So, Fea is dead. Now who do we want to kill tonight in an attempt to not throw suspicion on us? I'm thinking someone we both think is innocent. What about you?
Yes. We also want to kill someone smart, someone who is likely to bring unwanted direction and accuracy to the village.

Obviously, we do not want to kill either Mac or Aganzir just yet because of the suspicion they are under.

I don't want to kill Boro, because I think he might be the cobbler. He made a few comments toDay about Fea that made me wonder, so let's hold off on him.

What about Brinniel? Do you have any ideas?

Gwath:
Re: Who do we want to kill?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lariren Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwathagor
What about Brinniel? Do you have any ideas?
I was thinking her or Sally or Kath, but Kath is the Diva so that doesn't help. I like going with Brinn, she thought we were both innocent on Day 2.
Ok, I'll send a message to Mith.

Gwath:
Night Stuff
No way are we killing Mac or Sally. They got votes toDay, which means they might draw votes toMorrow, and anyone who is going to draw votes who isn't us is someone we want to keep around. Let's kill someone who is not going to get lynched otherwise. Boro maybe?

Also, who do you think the cobbler is?

-Sir Gwathahad

Gwath:
Night
Oh yeah. Or we could definitely kill Aganzir, as you say. That would be a very very obvious lynch, and therefore attributable to anybody. They would have a hard time pinning it on us specifically.

Gwath:
Night Stuff
Hey Lariren, I'm sorry about my inbox being full! My internet has been down for the past 15 hours or something like that, so I couldn't do anything about it. I hope you just took the initiative and PMed a kill choice to Mithalwen.

-Gwath

And message I never actually sent to Gwath(his inbox was full):
View As Web Page


Yeah thats the thing. She did accuse me when I teamed up with Mac to get Gollum(I just wanted him gone) but then I said I regretted my vote. And explained it all.

I think Agan would be a good kill, but I'm still having a hard time figuring out who the cobbler is. Part of me wants to say its Boro but then again he(he right?) been working a case against Kath.

Maybe it is Mac because he said he wasn't the divo.

Anyway I think Agan is a dangerous player at the moment but I'm up for her or Mac(because, really, we could then get Boro/Kath lynched for that).

PS: Gwath I totally freaked out at your vote. Especially since I wasn't going to be on the computer for that much longer.

You needn't have worried. I waited until the BD clock changed to GMT 6:59, counted to 35, and then voted.

Hehe, but that piece of info helped me make probably my best decision the next spy.

Night 1: Mac (Ordo) - And that first post was without a doubt a "I'm the cobbler, wolves! I was the one who spied on Mac. Don't kill me" post.

Night 2: I had down to either tp or Fea, with all that trickery one had to be a wolf, and I did want to find at least one. I figured with all of tp's Walter talk, he would not draw that much attention to an ally if he was a wolf, so went with Fea. Found a critic.

Night 3: Kath (divo). I never spied on tgwbs, :D. I think I PMed Mith, that knowing Fea was a critic, tgwbs is either also one and they are planning a sacrifice. Or tgwbs is the seer and the wolves would be wise to get rid of him now anyway. So, instead of spying on him, I stumbled on the divo early.

Night 4: Agan (soulmate), and that is why I was planning such a monstrous defense for you. Cailin was right. :p

Night 5: sally. I thought Agan was going to get killed during the night, and this way I could have both Mac and sally as safe targets to go after during the day. But with Mac's death, I was down to sally, and after I spotted the stuff in Fea's post about Lari I was fairly confident she was one of the remaining critics. But between Gwath and Shasta I had no clue.

I thought I botched it the last day, because I wasn't quite sure what I wanted to do. I thought about building a case against sally, with my presumed innocence, but didn't think I could milk that for another day. Then I thought I could reveal to be Walter and make it look like I knew sally and was trying to save her from the gallows. That was going to be difficult, and when Kath voted sally, it was a good escape, and hoped the two critics would help me.

After Lari voted for sally, I knew she was a wolf, I was still unsure about Gwath and was waiting on his vote, if he voted me we're good, if he voted sally, I was going to retract and vote for myself to end it. But hey didn't have to do that. Amazing job fellows. :D

Haha, on Day 1 when you said me, Fea, and two others, and said something about probably being a critic and Walter in there, I was stunned. Mostly because it reminded me of Fea's game where you jumped on Brinn and Morm for the #of reps and unbeknownst had two wolves, you made a very similar comment and this time again.

Also, I thought when posted about me not being the Divo but an ordo who's trying to look like Walter, you knew by then for sure. And the shoe comment...well I walked right into that one.

So I was right about Gwath on Day1! I just didn't stick to it... :rolleyes:

Cool game critics - and Walter!

And a fascinating concept Mith!

Hah, we opera-singers were just soo lousy! :)

Haha, I think it has become a rule now that in Mith's games the wolves win. :D Well I'm pleased to know that I was right about Boro. As for Lari - brilliantly played! I'm not even going to say especially for a newbie because pfft to that, she played better than many of us more experienced players I think!

It's strange, in one way I'm gutted that I missed out on the Day, it would certainly have been an experience! But then on the other hand I'm so, so glad because I know I'd have been climbing the walls if I'd had to sit and wait and watch.

I'm also ridiculously pleased that I got spied on, it makes me feel special. :D

So thanks for a fantastic game Mith! It was well worth the amount of time you've spent on it methinks, I loved the special roles. Even the soulmates one which could have gone to pieces a bit with Strongbow's disapperance gave us the tense ending to yesterDay!

Ha ha! Boro, you made my day with that one. The response I gave to you- "And you know precisely where to find shoes, don't you? ;)" was perhaps my favorite thing that I got to say the entire game.