Whatever. :rolleyes:

He didn't start the war. Melkor did. Melkor made it his number one goal to corrupt Feanor. Once he decided to do that, it was a given that Feanor was going to be tainted. The only people who had the power to undo the damage were the Valar. But instead of undoing Melkor's lies (like Melian did with Hurin) they punished Feanor via banishment which only strengthened Melkor's stain.

Yeah. Really great judgment there. :rolleyes:

Once that happened, it was over. Something bad was going to happen. And Melkor stealing the greatest work of hands ever (Silmarils) and killing Feanor's father pushed Feanor over the edge (remember, it said Feanor loved his dad more than any son ever loved his father).

And when Feanor arrived at Alqualonde, he didn't start the killing. He offered the idea of Olwe's people helping them build boats or ferrying them. It was a reasonable offer considering the Noldor had built their city for them. But no. Because the Valar didn't want the Noldor to leave, their puppet Olwe refused to help.

So Feanor began manning the ships. And then the Alqualonde elves starting throwing them overboard. And remember, the Noldor were weighted down with weapons and and armor and such, so the Alqualonde elves were essentially drowning them. They started the killing.

But anyway, this exercise in logical thinking usually proves too much for my fellow Downers. It's much easier mentally to blame Feanor rather than trace things back to the Valar.

So phantom was Feanor obligated to have Melkor taint him? Perhaps he could devalue his possessions enough. I think the Feanor story is all about point of view and we have a different point of view. Why is it the Valar's job to bail him out?

He didn't have a choice. If Melkor decides he is going to corrupt someone, if he's allowed to work his evil magic (the way the Valar allowed him to), then it's pretty much a given that he's going to succeed. Even Hurin the Steadfast couldn't help but be tainted by Melkor.

Once Melkor decided that ruining Feanor was his top priority, it was going to happen. Melkor is that powerful.

If his target of choice would've been Finrod during those years in Valinor, then Finrod would've done something nutty (unless the Valar had stepped in to counter Melkor).
Why is it their job to be fair?

Why is it their job to try and undo Melkor's evil?

Why is it their job to have compassion on a child of Eru and attempt to set them right?

You've gotta be kidding.

If you want to see how Feanor should've been dealt with, look at Melian and Hurin. She did the right thing and showed compassion and undid Melkor's malice. The Valar on the other hand strengthened Melkor's lies with their harsh banishment. They dropped the ball, plain and simple.

Anyway, this is exactly why I didn't want Feanor included in this thing. Hardly anyone thinks about him properly.

All right, point taken :)

Oh, how corrupted by Morgoth's lies you have become! You start with speaking about him, yet end up with Valar, who were as much victims as your Fëanor was.

However anyway, Fëanor was selfish and greedy person, who did not care about the lives of his kin, and even of those close to him who followed (I heard about some ship burning). Mainly, however, you say the Valar were the only ones to remove the damage. Not really. They asked Fëanor to give him the Silmarils, yet here his greed prevailed (it's of no matter that he factically didn't have them anymore at that point) and he refused to give it to them. And they did not force him, by any means, even though I can imagine people who would argue they had the right to, as there was the fate of Arda at stake (I think it was right the way they did it, but anyway).

Perhaps the Noldor had moral right for some of the Teleri's help, and they were their kin after all, however anyway, Noldor had no right to go and take their ships if Teleri did not give them to them. They Noldor acted no differently from Morgoth, the basis of the deed is the same: stealing something that does not belong to them, and eventually killing others in the process.

P.S. But seeing that also Morm has joined the discussion, I am beginning to worry that we got a bit off-topic on this thread :)

Hurt Ulmo, hurt Ungoliant. Heal Finrod, the only dude who cared about Men.

Legate: I have read CoH rather recently. Didn't help at all to develop feelings for anybody there...;)

Phantom: WOW - it were the Teleri who started the bloodbath at Alqualonde! I am convinced now.;) Go, Feanor!

Túrin (9)
Melian (10)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (9)
Maedhros (10)
Mim (9)
Aredhel (8)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (10)
Ulmo (8)
Fëanor (5)
Fingon (12)
Turgon (8)
Finrod (11)
Ecthelion (9)
Huan (10)
Ungoliant (7)
Azaghâl (7)
Míriel (7)

Heal Míriel, double hurt Huan

Túrin (9)
Melian (10)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (9)
Maedhros (10)
Mim (9)
Aredhel (8)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (10)
Ulmo (8)
Fëanor (5)
Fingon (12)
Turgon (8)
Finrod (11)
Ecthelion (9)
Huan (8)
Ungoliant (7)
Azaghâl (7)
Míriel (8)

Hurt Turgon, Hurt Mim, Heal Hurin

Túrin (9)
Melian (10)
Húrin (10)
Morwen (9)
Maedhros (10)
Mim (8)
Aredhel (8)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (10)
Ulmo (8)
Fëanor (5)
Fingon (12)
Turgon (7)
Finrod (11)
Ecthelion (9)
Huan (8)
Ungoliant (7)
Azaghâl (7)
Míriel (8)

Thingol by Phantom

Hurt Míriel, hurt Ungoliant, heal Ecthelion.

Túrin (9)
Melian (10)
Húrin (10)
Morwen (9)
Maedhros (10)
Mim (8)
Aredhel (8)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (10)
Ulmo (8)
Fëanor (5)
Fingon (12)
Turgon (7)
Finrod (11)
Ecthelion (10)
Huan (8)
Ungoliant (6)
Azaghâl (7)
Míriel (7)

Thingol by Phantom

Double hurt Turgon again - remember the Fen of Serech. Treacherous, ungrateful coward who used Men as cannon fodder. Heal Feanor who was at least interesting.

Túrin (9)
Melian (10)
Húrin (10)
Morwen (9)
Maedhros (10)
Mim (8)
Aredhel (8)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (10)
Ulmo (8)
Fëanor (6)
Fingon (12)
Turgon (5)
Finrod (11)
Ecthelion (10)
Huan (8)
Ungoliant (6)
Azaghâl (7)
Míriel (7)

Thingol by Phantom

Hurt Húrin and Fingon (not to let characters to whom I have rather "indifferent" attitude to be too high), heal Ulmo

Túrin (9)
Melian (10)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (9)
Maedhros (10)
Mim (8)
Aredhel (8)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (10)
Ulmo (9)
Fëanor (6)
Fingon (11)
Turgon (5)
Finrod (11)
Ecthelion (10)
Huan (8)
Ungoliant (6)
Azaghâl (7)
Míriel (7)

Thingol by Phantom

Double hurt Luthien Heal Turgon

Túrin (9)
Melian (10)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (9)
Maedhros (10)
Mim (8)
Aredhel (8)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (9)
Fëanor (6)
Fingon (11)
Turgon (6)
Finrod (11)
Ecthelion (10)
Huan (8)
Ungoliant (6)
Azaghâl (7)
Míriel (7)

Eliminated
Thingol by Phantom

Hurt Turgon, Hurt Ungoliant, Heal Turin

Túrin (10)
Melian (10)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (9)
Maedhros (10)
Mim (8)
Aredhel (8)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (9)
Fëanor (6)
Fingon (11)
Turgon (5)
Finrod (11)
Ecthelion (10)
Huan (8)
Ungoliant (5)
Azaghâl (7)
Míriel (7)

Eliminated
Thingol by Phantom

Double hurt Turgon Heal Feanor

Túrin (10)
Melian (10)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (9)
Maedhros (10)
Mim (8)
Aredhel (8)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (9)
Fëanor (7)
Fingon (11)
Turgon (3)
Finrod (11)
Ecthelion (10)
Huan (8)
Ungoliant (5)
Azaghâl (7)
Míriel (7)

Eliminated
Thingol by Phantom

Hurt Ungoliant, hurt Turgon, heal Mîm.

Túrin (10)
Melian (10)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (9)
Maedhros (10)
Mîm (9)
Aredhel (8)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (9)
Fëanor (7)
Fingon (11)
Turgon (2)
Finrod (11)
Ecthelion (10)
Huan (8)
Ungoliant (4)
Azaghâl (7)
Míriel (7)

Eliminated
Thingol by Phantom

Double hurt Ecthelion (who certainly does not deserve as many points as he has right now), heal Ulmo

Túrin (10)
Melian (10)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (9)
Maedhros (10)
Mîm (9)
Aredhel (8)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (10)
Fëanor (7)
Fingon (11)
Turgon (2)
Finrod (11)
Ecthelion (8)
Huan (8)
Ungoliant (4)
Azaghâl (7)
Míriel (7)

Eliminated
Thingol by Phantom

I really don't want to do this but I love getting the kill

Kill Turgon Heal Turin

Túrin (11)
Melian (10)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (9)
Maedhros (10)
Mîm (9)
Aredhel (8)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (10)
Fëanor (7)
Fingon (11)
Finrod (11)
Ecthelion (8)
Huan (8)
Ungoliant (4)
Azaghâl (7)
Míriel (7)

Eliminated
Thingol by Phantom
Turgon by mormegil

EDIT: Never mind. Morm finished him. I will revote.

Hurt Mim, Hurt Finrod, Heal Ecthelion

Túrin (11)
Melian (10)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (9)
Maedhros (10)
Mîm (8)
Aredhel (8)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (10)
Fëanor (7)
Fingon (11)
Finrod (10)
Ecthelion (9)
Huan (8)
Ungoliant (4)
Azaghâl (7)
Míriel (7)

Eliminated
Thingol by Phantom
Turgon by mormegil

Double hurt Mîm, heal Míriel

Hey, he sacrificed himself to kill the lord of the balrogs! I think that's pretty cool...

Túrin (11)
Melian (10)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (9)
Maedhros (10)
Mîm (7)
Aredhel (8)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (10)
Fëanor (7)
Fingon (11)
Finrod (11)
Ecthelion (8)
Huan (8)
Ungoliant (4)
Azaghâl (7)
Míriel (8)

Yes, I understand that - but I simply don't. There's about one line about him. Glorfindel, on the other hand, was far cooler when it comes to the matter. Besides, I don't like his name that much. It really fits much more to a Gondorian steward than to an Elf, in my opinion.

Sure, sure, I see. Maybe it's just me. There's such an awful abundance of Elven princes in the Silm, that I quite like the few regular ones, Ecthelion, Glorfindel, Mablung, Beleg, Daeron, Voronwe... especially if they accomplished something as great as Ecthelion did. It sticks out.

Yes, I see. But actually, funnily enough I like all the others you named except for Ecthelion. :) Perhaps he's too noble for me, in some way - you know, like a noble prince who appears, kills a Balrog and disappears again. Glorfindel is more of a knight, he has some more background; Mablung is a hunter, Beleg too, Daeron is a singer, Voronwë is a mariner. So the representative of the feudal class, so to say, is not seeming special in any way.

Double hurt Finrod, heal Mîm.

Túrin (11)
Melian (10)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (9)
Maedhros (10)
Mîm (7)
Aredhel (8)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (10)
Fëanor (7)
Fingon (11)
Finrod (8)
Ecthelion (9)
Huan (8)
Ungoliant (4)
Azaghâl (7)
Míriel (8)

Eliminated
Thingol by Phantom
Turgon by mormegil

Phantom's edit & Mac's vote right after that messed the list up a bit. I have corrected it now.

Double hurt Turin Heal Mim

Túrin (9)
Melian (10)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (9)
Maedhros (10)
Mîm (8)
Aredhel (8)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (10)
Fëanor (7)
Fingon (11)
Finrod (8)
Ecthelion (9)
Huan (8)
Ungoliant (4)
Azaghâl (7)
Míriel (8)

Eliminated
Thingol by Phantom
Turgon by mormegil

Double hurt Ungoliant, heal Turin


Túrin (10)
Melian (10)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (9)
Maedhros (10)
Mîm (8)
Aredhel (8)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (10)
Fëanor (7)
Fingon (11)
Finrod (8)
Ecthelion (9)
Huan (8)
Ungoliant (2)
Azaghâl (7)
Míriel (8)

Eliminated
Thingol by Phantom
Turgon by mormegil

Like Morm said: it's not that I'd dislike her that much, but just the chance to make the deadly blow...

Kill Ungoliant, heal Melian

Túrin (10)
Melian (11)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (9)
Maedhros (10)
Mîm (8)
Aredhel (8)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (10)
Fëanor (7)
Fingon (11)
Finrod (8)
Ecthelion (9)
Huan (8)
Ungoliant (0) *ei*
Azaghâl (7)
Míriel (8)

Eliminated
Thingol by Phantom
Turgon by mormegil
Ungoliant by Good, Aaaanakin, good! Kill him!

Hurt Melian and Maedhros, heal Finrod

Túrin (10)
Melian (10)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (9)
Maedhros (9)
Mîm (8)
Aredhel (8)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (10)
Fëanor (7)
Fingon (11)
Finrod (9)
Ecthelion (9)
Huan (8)
Azaghâl (7)
Míriel (8)

Eliminated
Thingol by Ye Phantome
Turgon by mormegil
Ungoliant by Mr Legato

Heal Huan Double Hurt Aredhel

Túrin (10)
Melian (10)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (9)
Maedhros (9)
Mîm (8)
Aredhel (6)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (10)
Fëanor (7)
Fingon (11)
Finrod (9)
Ecthelion (9)
Huan (9)
Azaghâl (7)
Míriel (8)

Eliminated
Thingol by Ye Phantome
Turgon by mormegil
Ungoliant by Mr Legato

Hurt Azaghal Hurt Turin Heal Mim

Túrin (9)
Melian (10)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (9)
Maedhros (9)
Mîm (9)
Aredhel (6)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (10)
Fëanor (7)
Fingon (11)
Finrod (9)
Ecthelion (9)
Huan (9)
Azaghâl (6)
Míriel (8)

Eliminated
Thingol by Ye Phantome
Turgon by mormegil
Ungoliant by Mr Legato

Hurt Melian and Morwen, heal Aredhel

Túrin (9)
Melian (9)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (8)
Maedhros (9)
Mîm (9)
Aredhel (7)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (10)
Fëanor (7)
Fingon (11)
Finrod (9)
Ecthelion (9)
Huan (9)
Azaghâl (6)
Míriel (8)

Eliminated
Thingol by Ye Phantome
Turgon by mormegil
Ungoliant by Mr Legato

Hurt Fingon and Huan, heal Turin

Túrin (10)
Melian (9)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (8)
Maedhros (9)
Mîm (9)
Aredhel (7)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (10)
Fëanor (7)
Fingon (10)
Finrod (9)
Ecthelion (9)
Huan (8)
Azaghâl (6)
Míriel (8)

Eliminated
Thingol by Ye Phantome
Turgon by mormegil
Ungoliant by Mr Legato

Hurt Aredhell and Mim, heal Fëanor

Túrin (10)
Melian (9)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (8)
Maedhros (9)
Mîm (8)
Aredhel (6)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (10)
Fëanor (8)
Fingon (10)
Finrod (9)
Ecthelion (9)
Huan (8)
Azaghâl (6)
Míriel (8)

Eliminated
Thingol by Ye Phantome
Turgon by mormegil
Ungoliant by Mr Legato

Hurt Morwen and Míriel, heal Fëanor.

Túrin (10)
Melian (9)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (7)
Maedhros (9)
Mîm (8)
Aredhel (6)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (10)
Fëanor (9)
Fingon (10)
Finrod (9)
Ecthelion (9)
Huan (8)
Azaghâl (6)
Míriel (7)

Eliminated
Thingol by Ye Phantome
Turgon by mormegil
Ungoliant by Mr Legato

Hurt Míriel and Ecthelion, heal Morwen

Túrin (10)
Melian (9)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (8)
Maedhros (9)
Mîm (8)
Aredhel (6)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (10)
Fëanor (9)
Fingon (10)
Finrod (9)
Ecthelion (8)
Huan (8)
Azaghâl (6)
Míriel (6)

Eliminated
Thingol by Ye Phantome
Turgon by mormegil
Ungoliant by Mr Legato

Hurt Aredhel and Thuringwethil, heal Maedhros

Túrin (10)
Melian (9)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (8)
Maedhros (10)
Mîm (8)
Aredhel (5)
Thuringwethil (7)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (10)
Fëanor (9)
Fingon (10)
Finrod (9)
Ecthelion (8)
Huan (8)
Azaghâl (6)
Míriel (6)

Eliminated
Thingol by Ye Phantome
Turgon by mormegil
Ungoliant by Mr Legato

Hurt Ecthelion Hurt Turin Heal Mim

Túrin (9)
Melian (9)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (8)
Maedhros (10)
Mîm (9)
Aredhel (5)
Thuringwethil (7)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (10)
Fëanor (9)
Fingon (10)
Finrod (9)
Ecthelion (7)
Huan (8)
Azaghâl (6)
Míriel (6)

Eliminated
Thingol by Ye Phantome
Turgon by mormegil
Ungoliant by Mr Legato

Heal Melian, hurt Húrin and Míriel

Túrin (9)
Melian (10)
Húrin (8)
Morwen (8)
Maedhros (10)
Mîm (9)
Aredhel (5)
Thuringwethil (7)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (10)
Fëanor (9)
Fingon (10)
Finrod (9)
Ecthelion (7)
Huan (8)
Azaghâl (6)
Míriel (5)

Eliminated
Thingol by Ye Phantome
Turgon by mormegil
Ungoliant by Mr Legato

Double hurt Aredhel, heal Fëanor

Túrin (9)
Melian (10)
Húrin (8)
Morwen (8)
Maedhros (10)
Mîm (9)
Aredhel (3)
Thuringwethil (7)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (10)
Fëanor (10)
Fingon (10)
Finrod (9)
Ecthelion (7)
Huan (8)
Azaghâl (6)
Míriel (5)

Eliminated
Thingol by Ye Phantome
Turgon by mormegeil
Ungoliant by Mr Legato

Heal Aredhel
Hurt Fingon
Hurt Ecthelion

Túrin (9)
Melian (10)
Húrin (8)
Morwen (8)
Maedhros (10)
Mîm (9)
Aredhel (4)
Thuringwethil (7)
Lúthien (8)
Ulmo (10)
Fëanor (10)
Fingon (9)
Finrod (9)
Ecthelion (6)
Huan (8)
Azaghâl (6)
Míriel (5)

Eliminated
Thingol by Ye Phantome
Turgon by mormegeil
Ungoliant by Mr Legato

Oops! I misconted so post cancelled.

Oops! I misconted so post cancelled.