So the debate at this point is whether to indicate who we would be voting to lynch in a normal game, as a marker to those who might be reading up on things just before DL?
I can't see any real reason not to do it, because it could yield something valuable when analyzing the lynch the following Day. It's not only the way people vote that's noteworthy, but what they say about the person under the gun.
Now, trouble finding people who look off on Day 1 is usually a failing of mine; there's just very little to go on.
Here, mostly what we have has to do with the Night 1 false start, which to me stills looks fairly inconclusive about those who posted then. Lottie's quickness to condemn them does make her look somewhat shifty, at least compared to everyone else.
Aside from that, there's the aforementioned debate over airing our suspicions.
As I said earlier, I also didn't like Nienna's 51 where she said this:

That's really more of a feeling, though, as I don't know she's said anything else that makes me suspect her.

If I had to vote for the trusted ones right now, I think Brinn would be there, followed by Nog, and maybe Nerwen. I'm not as clear on who the fourth might be. But those three seem to have made generally good points, with nothing indicating furriness to me.

I was just telling you to calm down.

We haven't even seen what a day is like with this new concept is like and you're already suggesting we make an alterations before we even try it out. Let's see how people cope with the voting toDay before we start adding stuff. Don't try to turn this back into a normal game already.

I would hope that you're more concerned with winning than with making sure this game doesn't "end up just like any other."

That's basically a distraction - or could turn into one, I should say.

(Whoa! I'm not in invisible mode. Shoot.)

Yeah, but we can at least explore the opportunities of this game before turning it into one "like any other". We have a whole Day with basically nothing to go on today, and it might be useful later on in the game to understand more about "trust-voting" instead of almost ignoring it altogether and basing your suspicions on the conventional methods. This game gives us another wolf-catching tool, let's at least see if we can use it before reverting straight back to the Old Ways.

Children, children... calm down... its fine... just a game.

So these are the post counts. It looks like everyone, except Fea, has made some sort of contribution.

Brinn - 1
Dun - 5
Fea - 1 - first post... not saying anything
Form - 2
Glirdan - 3
Gwath - 3
Izzy - 3
Lottie - 7
Mira - 4
Nerwen - 7
Nienna - 6
Nog - 11
Pitch - 5
Rune - 2
Steve - 12
Wilwa - 2

I'm not entirely sure as to why people are thinking this is way different than "normal". Quite often, when people vote - it comes down to a "whomever is left".

People will makes lists of their thoughts on every player, putting into categories of "innocentish, won't lynch, slightly suspicious.." etc. Then voting for a person whom either they find suspicious, or whomever is "left over" and they've "no idea about".

Here, we are just placing our votes with/on/for people whom we want to keep around. Not entirely different than making lists. By voting for whom you want to keep around, it already shows whom you may think is suspicious indirectly.

X'd with Nienna x2.

Hey all, I'm here but pretty much just to vote as I have some things I have to do and won't be around for the DL.

However, I will be addressing somethings

Yes, yes they did...the jerks. :rolleyes:

And yet sometimes it is unavoidable...like in my case currently as I will probably be making my votes within the next hour.

And speaking of votes, I will make one right now for:

++Nogrod

He has been quite helpful from everything that I've read thus far. Clear, concise, logical thoughts.

I really wish I had more time to vote and read ( :( ), but I will be leaving quite soon and actually have company at the moment. I will be back on (well I hope to anyways) before I have to leave to vote at least once more.

Not entirely... I think that with 16 people and only 4 votes then one doesn't really find 12 people suspicious... or wolfish. They are just the people left over who you don't have confidence in or who you don't want to die.

Edit: Crossed with Glirdan

Needs to be highlighted, Glirdy.

Time for a list.

Tend to trust / would like to trust (in alphabetical order):
Eönwë, Gwath, Nienna, Nog. All of them have been posting and making good points.

To a slightly lesser degree, the same goes for:
Izzy, Mira, Nerwen, wilwa; maybe Brinn, if there were just a little more from her.

Not sure whether to trust, but find valuable:
Lottie, Zil. Because they're de facto the only ones who have actively suspected anybody yet (unlike Nog, who's only talking about it).

No idea about:
Fea, Form, Glirdan, Rune.

Suspect:
???

My problem is that because of the special game mechanics, I'm wary of the very kind of people I'd usually trust, while on the other hand I haven't seen anything outstanding yet that calls for suspicion. So I'll probably vote for someone I tend to trust as Simon, but spread some votes among the rest as well.

(x-ed from #80)

I always was one for the Old Ways. ;)

Two and three quarter hours until deadline, if I'm doing the conversion right?

Actually, it might be quite interesting to make someone you're unsure about Simon this early in the game, as it puts them under a lot of pressure. On the other hand, this probably wouldn't work because everyone gets they're own choices, so unless we decide as a group who we want as Simon, this won't work. And deciding who it is beforehand will just give the wolves another place to hide (was that a third hand or back to the first?).

Possible votes of confidence

Brinn – spoke sense early on the Day but hasn’t appeared after that. Could be perfect wolvery or just RL busyness… I’d hate to see her gone because of that especially as I have no possibility to see what she might do during the last hours.

Dun – Seems to be sensical and bold enough to take sides on some issues. Good for me.

Gwath – speaks sense indeed. He would be a terribly effective wolf or then an ordo. I’m leaning on the latter for D1.

Nerwen – mainly to the point and anyway too valuable to lose on D1…

Nienna – Seems collected and to the point. I like her posting, it feels well-intended and is reasoned.

I can't vote all five, but my four votes will most probably go for four of them.

As I said, we better use all our votes - hey Glirdan, use them all! The more votes we have cast the lesser the risk that we do not manage to lynch anyone.



The less trusted ones... but not actually suspicious enough I'd like to see them lynched.

Fea – one post total, saying “Marco?” C'mon Fea!

Form – the first poster, leaning towards innocent thus far (although looking at the scope of the explanation it looks a bit overdone).

Glirdan – kind of perfect wolf-strategy: being there but not much said to stir controversy. Looking at his “comeback” ending up in early deaths I’d hate to see him gone on D1 though.

Lottie – she’s a problem for me. The intervention back there on the wrong start is not thoroughly innocent-looking as it would be such a nice idea for a wolf to do but then again I have nothing else on her so it might be just pure “what if”?

Rune – more or less the same as with Glirdan… I’d hate to see him gone with that little to be said on him – even if that would be the best wolf tactics in this game.

Wilwa – she’s had not much time so far I can see, but soo reasonable and careful! If I hadn’t promised I’ll not suspect her firsthand I’d suspect her, but now I think I’ll just have to leave it at that.



The ones I do suspect more or less...

Izzy – I don’t like her suggestion that we should skip lynching someone today. Also even if I’m not willing to put “all those and only those” people into the firing-line who posted prematurely, her defence of them as a lot makes me wonder, like she’s downplaying the chance there was a wolf in there? Her latest looks sensible again… gah.

Mira – the odd one out for me. Her actions might win her a place in my suspicion list (the early talking, mainly bantering, echoing other’s points… and just staying at the backstage). But really nothing to say more...

Pitch – I don’t see why he goes with Eönwë to make issues with totally sensible arguments… suspicious.

Steve – At times he makes very educated suggestions and at times he seems to try and work against our good… A tough one to call.



~~*~~

The 'Downs seem to be down again and it's coming 3AM...

If Sally agrees to post this then you'll have my votes and this post.


So my votes will be.

++ Gwath

++ Inziladun

++ Nerwen

++ Nienna


And don't lynch Brinn either!


If I'd be able to vote for a lynch I would say

lynch Pitchwife

Eönwë has made also good points but Pitch has merely tried to oppose tactics that are good to us.

Of the other two I do suspect somewhat Mira is the more "easy-going" - which might be good or bad - and Izzy is the more visible - in good and bad. Really hard to say about them.

And I do not claim I have the four wolves listed here. But I'd say there must be one, and there might be more.


EDIT: The 'Downs work again!!! Hurray!

I'm going to make my votes in my next post most likely.
Spent forty-five minutes playing the F5 refresh game with the Downs. Don't want to risk that closer to deadline..

Since the forum has been acting up for me as well, I'll at least get these done.

++Nog

++Nerwen

++Brinn

With my luck, they're all three wolves, but I just don't see anything to fault them for, and they've been around enough for me to get a bit of a feel for them.

Still not sure of the other one...

I was just coming to close my computer when I saw this...
How can you say Brinn has been around enough? She made one post - which was fine and dandy - but why to say you "got a feel of it"?

I can see one says we shouldn't lose her because she only managed to post once or something as she can be a force the wolves need to reckon with (like I did), but to claim to have a feel from that one post- while several people have posted more and more passionately, and more openly...

Maybe I should rethink my suspicions from scratch?

Blah. 3.30AM. And three of my real votes I can still stand along with.

So hoping to see you toMorrow.

Here. Reading.

Why tell them to calm down, Nienna? How incredibly boring. The post count isn't that high this game. The last thing you want to encourage is the double-whammy of low posting and boring posting.

And Glirdan, come on. You don't even know how to vote properly? The most basic thing that there is in this little game, and you don't do it? It's like a person who goes to Hollywood to break into showbiz and after years of hard work gets a gig as a background extra- and manages to get fired from that.

And I could paint Gwath with that same brush for his failure to be invisible. Seriously- how does that happen? Did someone shoot you guys with a Noob-ray?

And I still can't believe no one has suggested something interesting, such as- "On Day 2, why don't we all agree to dump three of our four votes immediately on a non-player (e.g. Shasta) and then we'll all have only one single vote with which to save someone from then on. It will make votes more meaningful and make things more tense and encourage bargaining and make lists and such much shorter and easier to keep track of etc etc..."

Come on. Show me something! To this point you lot have been borderline pathetic.

Did the site die on anyone else? Because it did for me, and not only that, it ate up a rather long post of mine. I'll do it again (more sketchily, alas). Note: these points may have been raised in the meantime– I haven't had a chance to read the thread yet.

But is there any real difference between these dummy-votes and just making a suspicion-list in the normal way? It just seems like an over-complicated variation on something we do anyway. Will it hinder the ability of wolves to keep their paws clean when ordos gets lynched?

So, what do we do about the quiet people toDay? If we ignore them they may get lynched by default– and likely won't be wolves, because the wolves will be trying to look especially helpful.

If we agree to vote for some of them, the wolves may decide to revert to submarining tactics, so we lose that advantage. Thoughts?

EDIT:X'd since... I think Gwath at #83, but I can't quite remember.
EDIT2: word left out.

I think this is a perfectly logical idea. If all we focus on is people we trust then the wolves chould very easily continually vote to protect each other without it being noticeable that they're always protecting each other, at least at first since we all get so many votes. So it may take a bit before we can find any sort of pattern since it's likely that a lot of people will vote similarly anyway. But if we add suspicions in there as well then that's just another piece of data that we can look at for each person. More info the better. Hope that made sense...


At this moment I feel pretty good about Nog and Izzy. Inzil doesn't look to bad either. Eonwe though isn't sitting too well with me for now, just after my quick read through. Everyone else I'm still up in the air with.

I'm gonna skim through again, maybe have some other stuff to say, and then I gotta vote and go to sleep...

x'ed with a few

Erm...


Now let me get back to the game without your distractions!:p

Extra note: Would you stop with the "here and reading" announcements? I've seen several of those (Wilwa, Nerwen, and Loslote, maybe more), and you don't seem to realize that not everyone is allowed to say that (unless you are within an hour of the deadline).

Why is it necessary to tell everyone you're reading the thread? Isn't everyone? The only way it matters is if it is likely that several other members have been eagerly awaiting your contributions and you wish to inform them that their thirst will soon be quenched. In other words, you have to first prove yourself to be sufficiently noteworthy, awesome, or important in order to post "here and reading".

There are but a few who qualify to use this phrase at any time-
1) revealed gifteds
2) Seer-dreamed proven innocents
3) Mod(s)
4) SPM
5) Phantom

Are you on this list?

Then don't do it.

If at any point during this contest I feel someone has qualified to be added to the list, I will announce it.

Right after I posted I thought of this same thing and was about to say it when you did. I think at least 2 of my votes will go to people who haven't posted that much, because I'd rather someone not get lynched simply because they didn't get the chance to post.

Oh good gravy, Steve- you honestly think that the quote from Sally disqualifies the plan? All it says is that you must spread your votes, hence you do not put all three votes on Shasta (he was just one example), but rather one on Shasta, one on Phantom, etc...

And if you don't want to vote for non-players, just agree on a plan to dump your first three votes on each other and forge a massive tie.

Plus didn't I already tell someone earlier not to be a ruler-kisser? It's really lame.

The one post seemed to have substance, she looked all right, and I'd rather not see her gone just yet. Simple as that.

The forum has been down off and on today, but when I tried to access the main Barrow Downs site it worked.

At least for the first Day, I guess we're confined to giving a second chance to those we feel deserve it, and hope they'll be around more toMorrow. As for me, I may be leaning toward giving my final vote to Glirdan, simply because it would be a shame for him to die on Day 1 two games in a row, and I really haven't had a chance to see what he's made of.

x/d with 2 phantoms, 2 Wilwas, and a Steve

Have an extra three hours. Sorry, I wasn't by a computer so I didn't know the site was down.


Repeat. A temporary DL is in effect for toDay only. The DL is now 6 a.m. GMT (in about four hours.)

Okay... sooo... I'm going to make myself a bit more of a target here, because I'm posting, voting, and running... but it seems that when Sally-Mod asked me to play, I mistranslated timezones (apparently 9:00 doesn't translate to 10:00 in my timezone, but to 8:00--I guess I don't live in Boston yet :p ), and so I can't stick around as late as I thought... and it's a Friday night, and even Internet denizens occasionally have lives.

++ Mirandir
++ Nerwen
++ Eönwë
++ Loslote

Can you guess what they have in common?

I figure I owe it to them for not making me look like a complete idiot--and they are all clearly excited enough to be playing that they were jumping the gun.

x-ed with the Moddess. Okay, maybe I could have got on closer to the deadline. Good timing, Sally. :p

Ok, gonna do this now thens:

++Glirdan

Cause I don't want the poor kid getting lynched Day 1 again.

++Fea

Cause all she's said was 1 word and I don't want a submarine type to get lynched just for lack of posts.

++Nog

Cause I feel good about him.


Hmmm, gonna rethink a bit of stuff and come back for the 4th in a bit. Might go with another big poster, or someone who hasn't been around much, still not sure.

Keep in mind that no one gets lynched if there's a four way tie. So that's definitely something we want to avoid. Try to spread your votes out a bit people.

Don't give them ideas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


:p

Nonsense. When you're a wolf, you become Mr. Agreeable. I haven't seen that yet. Unlike Pitchwolf, you seem to be somewhat confrontational...though that may just be this game.

I'm probably going to vote Nog, Nienna, and Zil. They all look pretty innocent to me. Not sure about the fourth yet...probably a quiet person I don't think is a wolf but probably won't get many votes so may get lynched.

EDIT: xed since Zil.

Yeah, working to sniff out the wolves is one way to catch them, but it doesn't always work. How many times has an innocent been wrongly lynched because they look 'suspicious'? The different style of this game is trying to make us look at things with a different perspective, and perhaps we should take advantage of that. If we try to figure out who's innocent rather than evil, then we can use the process of elimination to find the wolves. Of course I know that some wolves could very well fool us and appear innocent...but nothing's perfect. I know at least for me, sometimes I feel like I'm trying so hard to find the suspicious people that I end up voting for players for ridiculous reasons. It's a bit of an experiment but...perhaps if we actually take more time looking at who we don't want to lynch we'll be more successful. If anything, these under-the-radar wolves we might have could be in more danger than usual. Quiet wolves manage to win games by being left unnoticed...but in this game where you need votes in order to survive, you can't just hide in the background the entire game.

If some of you want to stick to the classic strategy and make an unofficial vote of who you want to lynch, then that's fine. Just don't expect everyone else to play the same way.

During these first Days I think we should keep the quiet ones alive, because we can't know whether or not it's due to RL. But if some players continue to lurk in the background throughout the game without reason, then they probably aren't worth saving.

Yeah, that'd be RL. I was around for several hours, but of course hardly anyone posted until I left. :rolleyes: Don't expect to see a whole lot of me during the game because this is a busy semester and my participation will be limited.

I'll make my first vote now. I'd like to keep Glirdan around. Perhaps it's because I feel sorry for him last game (first game in two and half years and you lynch him on Day 1? yeesh), but it's also been a long time since I played WW online with him and I'd like to have a chance to get familiar with his playing style before seeing him lynched again:

++Glirdan

EDIT: X-ed since Sally

So a very quick scan through and so I'm gonna go with:

++Lottie

Everyone who still hasn't voted I just want to reiterate what I just said. 4 way tie and we don't get a lynch. The votes so far do seem fairly spread out, which is good, but hopefully a vote count shows up soon and people can keep the tie thing in mind. Yes, I'm paranoid about a no lynch, I'm also paranoid that one of those people with 1 or 2 votes are going to get lynched just because they went unnoticed, and that's not really a concrete basis for lynching.

Anyway, I spent all morning with a bunch of hyper 4 year olds so I'm kind of exhausted, gonna go sleep now. Good luck!

x'ed with Lottie and Brinn

Check the admin thread.

You have a point there– at least if you're talking about Day Ones only. After that we generally have more to go on.

But much too indirectly– at least in this stage of the game, when there are so many players. The big problem we have is that the lynch-result may not give us much information– the wolves can help get an ordo lynched simply by doing nothing, and then claim they never suspected the victim at all.

*has sudden urge to spam the thread with 500 "here and reading" posts*

EDIT:X'd with a host.

Trust
No-one yet... not good, especially in this game.

Seem Innocent
Brinn- Only one post, but concisely made quite a few good points.
Pitch- Seems to me like he's innocent who just overdid it a bit on the non-"Nog-quasi-voting" front.
Wilwa- Has posted very little, but she's giving off good vibes.
Izzy- Makes some nice, simple points without overdoing it. Don't know if I really trust her though...

Not evil
Nerwen- Looks better with every post, but I think her comment about wolves breaking the rules on purpose wasn't a very good start. Which makes her seem innocent

Not sure
Fea- For obvious reasons.
Rune- Hasn't really said much.
Shasta- Erm.... no. Got nothing.
Form- hasn't said anything except commenting on Days and miscalculating them.
Glirdan- Hasn't really said anything important except for backing Nog (incorrectly).
Mira- hasn't really said anything if substance yet.

Need to look at
Nog- Makes some good points, but seems a bit too defensive to me.
Lottie- Very very confusing. Sometimes looks good, sometimes evil.

Suspicious of
Inzil- Seems to have become one of the dreaded "middle people". He seems to be playing by the book- no strong accusations, no controversy, just doing what he needs to, but no more. However, he may just be a normal ordo, but he just seems too normal (his post count is in the middle too). He also voted for three people without giving any reasons, and that can't be good. Then again, I always find him suspicious.

Gwathagor- Posted a few one-lines. Seem pretty innocent, but he's been here for quite a while without actually saying anything of substance.

Nienna- The whole "That is how we will win" speech. She also seems to be agreeing lot rather than making any new points. And maybe she thinks a post count will make it all better?

Evil
No-one yet... yeah, I know. :rolleyes:

edit: x-ed since last post.

Okay...

++Nienna

++Zil

May vote Nog. May vote Fea. May vote Pitchie. May vote Izzy. May vote Glirdy. May vote Wilwa.

Will not vote Eonwe. Will not vote Brinn.

Will probably not (but might be persuaded to) vote Formy, Nerwen, Mira, or Gwath.

EDIT: xed with Miss Mod.

Bet it means nothing. Or, rather, that it means that on Night 0, nothing happens but ModDeath, after which Day 1 starts (things happen) followed by Night 1 (things happen).

Sawwee!!! How'm I supposed to respond to things systematically as I read if you responded before I got home but after I tried to respond?

I freaking love you for keeping WW in your dayplanner. Just sayin'. Not least because I had to schedule it in myself, what with my crazy life. (Brief explanation of: I meant to be around at midDay but got stuck out of town running errands and by the time I got home I had to sprint out the door to get to work on time and only just got onto the 'Downs).

I concur. While it's plausible that some enterprising individual might try to meta-manipulate like that, the odds of it having any functional and predictable benefit aren't really good enough to warrant bothering. I mean... what are the odds that posting at night is going to convince people you're not evil? It's just trash logic and would be a kinda useless waste of time and energy.

Psh... just ask the Bostonmooters: I attract attention even when sick and sleeping. Posting? As if posting was necessary for one such as me! ;) No, but seriously, there's something interesting about the psychology behind trying to avoid being the least favorite and actively striving to be the most loved. Frankly, every time I play werewolf I wish I was studying it as social psych. Because the question comes down to how much you think somebody is willing to alter their normal state in order to accrue popularity. Ie: how much are any of the players here willing to change themselves in order to please others?

Me? Even if I had the time and energy to pretend like I care about being popular, I wouldn't. Because it would almost certainly be detrimental to me to try to attract attention, since urban legend suggests that I'm only vocal when I'm evil. Ergo, I'm playing how I feel like playing based on my schedule and my whim (and Sally's whim), and the rest of you will just have to deal.

I view it as drawing negative space. With voting for who you want to kill, you're drawing the subject of the picture. You're making it obvious.

But when you vote for who you want to keep alive, you're filling in your background. The silhouette you reveal is the identity of the person who is least trusted.

In short, I find this argument silly, since regardless of whether you vote for favorite or least favorite, you're still eventually going to have an Undesirable die at the hands of the village.

It's just more like death by negligence instead of death by pitchfork. Just think of us leaving a poor little villager out in the cold while the rest of us party, and coming out in the morning to find them frozen in the snow.

Because I haven't been home until now! I vote for this idea. Then again, last time I tried to convince a group to control votes and kill a known wolf with them, they managed to kill me instead. So frankly, my faith in group think is negligible. No offense to you all as individuals, but it's a proven fact that groups of people are stupid.

What we need here is a benevolent dictator. We shouldn't be voting anybody into Simon, Simon should seize control!

Veni, vidi, vici!