hS

And this document was written by Sam? ;)

Er. Hmm.

Okay, apparently the answer is no; it (in its final form) postdates him. (And no, I don't mean 'by several thousand years because it was written by Tolkien' ;))

The answer is in two parts: "They all appear in _____, and have ______."

hS

I wonder if this is something to do with founding a new surname, or bringing people into the world who do. (Fairbairn, Gardner). But I can't make it work. The same would be true of the Gaffer and Tolman Cotton.

Ah ... missed the clue.

They all appear in the Appendix of Family Trees

and

...

They all marry a descendant of someone? Someone high up the Gamwich tree?

...

No. Faramir Took does that as well.

So what is the difference between these three and Faramir Took?

hS

I don't know. I think only the 10 day rule can save us on this one.

Goodchild was a surname JRRT considered for Sam.

Did he consider Brown and Fairbairn as surnames for different or more important characters as well?

I mean, if you feel like ignoring the thread for a week and a half, um... feel free? It's not actually that hard, though. There's a very specific, named document in which all three appear - which is their only appearance - and what they have in common is what visibly distinguishes them from the other people in that document.

Not so far as I know.

hS

That's the thing ... I'd guess something like the King's letter to Samwise, but it's after Bell's time. Lily is probably still alive ... but if they're mentioned there in a 'son of' and 'daughter of' capacity for Sam and Rose, it would be unusual to either not name the other parent or to name the mothers instead of the fathers. Also, why would the King mention Fastred when I believe Elanor is still a child, although not a young one?

Was I right about the 'they are in' being a family tree/trees?

I didn't mean to complain. It's just that the answers to my current password would work in this thread, and I wanted to drop them in here once the last one is guessed. ;)

Well, all 3 appear on the Longfather Tree of Master Samwise. Is that the document?

I wish I could say they're the only 3 spouses mentioned, but 6 marriages are indicated on that document.

... whoops ... there are 7! Hob and Rowan. Rowan must have been a girl, then, unless the Shire was more forward-thinking than we thought.

It may be the only document where all three appear, but Fastred must appear somewhere else, or we wouldn't know that his children were Elfstan and Firiel ... unless only Elanor is named as parent in this other source.

How about this?

They all appear in the Longfather Tree of Master Samwise

AND

They all three have a unique surname.

1. Bell is the only 'real' Goodchild ever mentioned (Christopher wouldn't let his dad make Sam a Goodchild ... so that was never *really* a character).
2. Lily Brown is the only Brown ever mentioned.
3. Fastred is the only 'of Greenholm' (is that a surname, like the Dutch ''Van" or the French "De?"), because his children and wife, and he himself, (supposedly upon his marriage), took the name of Fairbairn.

Correct!

The Longfather Tree is the document I was looking for. I was phrasing the other part as 'they are the only person from their [birth] family ever named', but it comes to the same thing.

Well done to both of you - Urwen got tantalisingly close - and over to Pervinca.

hS

OK. I am using the answers and password from my last password puzzle, for which I am not willing to give away the theme until at least a couple of people have had a go at guessing.

With one caveat, which I will defend, I believe these are the only known characters to whom this applies. It's something that I would say is rarer in Tolkien's works than it is in 'real life.' There could have been many other cases, but if there were, Tolkien did not report them.

Aragorn
Luthien
Idril
Niniel
Finwe
Turin

EDIT: If, once the theme is guessed, anyone can cite any further examples, I will add them with my apologies.

Is it some kind of physical characteristic?

Yes, they all had a sixth finger, like Anne Boleyn. :D

Only kidding.

No.

I am drawing a blank here. :|

They all had magical powahs? :p

Well ....

When you thought the password was couples, you were wrong, but you were closer, thematically, than the above two answers are.

People who married golden-haired people?

That is wrong for at least 3 of them.

Hmm.

It can't be to do with their children: Turin and Nienor never had any. It can't be their parents, because Finwe never had any (named). It can't be anything to do with their deaths, because Idril never did.

Is it something to do with them all having two suitors (of varying degrees)? Aragorn has Arwen and Eowyn, Luthien had Daeron and Beren, Idril had Tuor and some elf who just doesn't get mentioned enough for me to remember his name (;)), Niniel had Turin and Brandir, Turin... well, he was one of Finduilas' suitors, but also I guess Finduilas & Niniel. And Finwe had Miriel and Indis.

But those last two kind of break it: while the other four had one they rejected and one they married, Finwe was married to both of them, and Turin didn't know both at the same time.

If it is this, is your caveat Tar-Miriel? (Or Tar-Ancalime, who was a total fairytale princess when it comes to rejecting suitors.)

hS

How could you do this to me? :(

Also, new password is up.

Huinesoron has the answer, more or less.

They were all loved (romantically) by two people, not just one.

Not that common a thing in Tolkien. Only one of his characters even remarries, as far as I am aware.

CAVEATS:

I am not counting Finduilas. *She* loved Gwindor, then Turin, but I believe Turin only felt brotherly affection for *her*. (Don't shudder at this. He was blameless when it came to Niniel, unless you count not accepting 'No' the first time and ignoring Brandir's advice (IIRC)).

I include Idril, because my gut feeling is that Maeglin did love her. I have a friend whose parents were first cousins. I'm not saying it's a good idea for such a thing to happen often. It isn't. But I am not grossed out by the idea of it happening occasionally.

I exclude Eowyn, because I would definitely *not* dignify Grima's urges with the name of love.

Ditto others who lusted after Luthien. Only 2 are presented as loving her.

Are there any I have missed?

I thought at first I was going to have to use Edith as an answer to have enough for a password (she had got engaged to another man by the time Tolkien was 21, but broke it off when Tolkien got back in touch with her and declared his feelings unchanged).

EDIT: Do I have to include Ancalime? Was she *loved* by two or more men?

Would you like to try the password now, Pervinca?

Also, which two people loved Turin?

Niniel and Finduilas.

In response to Huinesoron: Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin Maeglin



Is that enough for you, or do you need more? :p

And it's Huinesoron's turn again, of course. Forgot to say it.

Give us a puzzle, Huinesoron.

Okay, let's try this one:

-Indis
-Ancalime
-Vorondil

There may be other examples, but I can't come up with any right now.

hS

Is it something to do with spouses again? Because Vorondil had none.

He had a pretty famous son, so unless this is another HoME XIII factoid, I think he probably did. :)

It's mostly not to do with spouses, no.

I guess Finwe could also be on the list.

hS

They all held a position which didn't exist beforehand?


They all had royal blood?

Vorondil was Steward of Gondor like his dad.

I'm not sure Vorondil did.

hS

Can't think of anything else.

Oh wait. They all had a relative named Maeglin, did they not? :p


Or maybe they all wore wool hats and spoke in southern Irish accents?

Truly, do we not all have a relative named Maeglin in our hearts?

hS

Okay, so:

-For Indis, this was Finwe's fault.
-For Ancalime, it was Tar-Aldarion's.
-For Vorondil, it was Earnil's.

Of the guesses so far, Urwen's 'position which didn't exist beforehand' comes closest.

hS

They were both forced to act as regents in the absence of true ruler?