Yes, but to repeat yet again, there is not necessarily a one to one correlation in the power conveyed to the Witch King or any of the Nazgul by Sauron. If this WAS the case, then why don't we hear more of the Witch King and the Nazgul back in the 2nd Age? Why wasn't the Witch King back then defeating the Numenoreans??

The point i was making is similar to yours obloquy. Just because the character is of different status or what have you, doesn't make that character confined to achieve only what is deemed possible from an outward perspective. Ecthelion was not as powerful as Gothmog, i see no indication to support the possibility that he was - being that Gothmog was a particularly powerful and potent force within Melkor's ranks, and his alledged son for that matter. Ecthelion was a lord of Gondolin and of the Noldor, not royalty or of the elite echelon, yet he was revered.

We know the lesser Maija and the High Elves have a power not totally unlike the other, we have seen evidence that High Elves can endure physical conflict with the Maija - and it was physical conflict. The emphasis of 'power' in various writings of the encounters between Elf and Maija or Valar is minimal, it takes rather a more hardy standpoint on the physical prowess of those concerned.

A common example of the "seemingly" weaker foe is Glorfindel. You may argue that his status as one of the Elite Eldar gives reason enough for him to triumph over a balrog, a demigod. Who can say they saw it coming that Glorfindel on the impression they had already gained of him would win? I know i thought he was a terrific character, but defeating a Balrog in a 1 Vs1, i may have doubted.

The Second Age saw the fall of Sauron, in what appeared a mightier resistence against him. Plus, do not discount the enchanted blades which were made for the wars in those days to fend off the Nazgul. If anything, Sauron should have given the Witch King a power-up in this age.

The Nazgul stand or fall with Sauron, naturally. But Sauron does not stand or fall with them, so this relationship is not equivalent to Sauron's relationship with the Ring. Come on, you shouldn't have needed me to explain that to you.

He was still capable of modifying his appearance until the drowning of Numenor.

Find it yourself.

And yet he was still not called one of the greatest Eldar. Are you suggesting that after his reincarnation and return he had surpassed all others? (That's a rhetorical question.)

Because they're all greater than Glorfindel.

Why am I answering these questions? Crack a book.

Your initial argument was:
If the WK would fall only if Sauron would, it pretty much means that the WK would fall only if the Ring is destroyed (other alternatives of destroying Sauron are not explored much in the book). Therefore, as long as the Ring endures, so does the WK.
Being capable of modifying appearance is completely different from being discarnate at the time of making the ring.
Nothing about the maiar that came into Melkor's service mentions them being any lower than the rest. Balrogs are not mentioned as lesser spirit, quite the contrary can be surmised from their mentioning in this passage. All throughout the work, the balrogs are given prime status among his servants, which justifies at least their equal status with any other fallen maia.
Greatest of the Eldar is a rather unqualified, general label - as you yourself have mentioned.
Nowhere is it equated with status close or equal to that of lesser maiar.

Which is patently untrue.

No it isn't. Once incarnate, ealar can no longer change their shape at will. Prior to incarnation, they can take on any physical "raiment" they wish.

I guess you didn't find it then, did you?

Yeah, it refers to general power level, which is exactly what I have referenced. Glorfindel is not the most powerful elf.

No, but I never said Galadriel was described this way. However, Glorfindel was, and Galadriel is greater than Glorfindel. Figure it out.

Seriously, think before you post. Are you just trying to distract me while someone steals my belongings? Or what?

My two cents: Before pitting these 'creatures' against each other in a fight, one might want to look at the creatures involved. To me, the Balrog may lose the fight due to its unwillingness to engage in battle. Morgoth's Balrogs are like bodyguards, gate wardens and subcaptains of war. When did any of them set up shop on its own? Even the Roggie in Moria just sits around reading '101 Ways of Cooking Dwarves' until Gandalf shows up. Attack Lothlorien? Naa. Attack during the Battle of Azanulbizar? Naa, just keep them pesky Dwarves from coming in the door.

Without Morgoth's and/or Sauron's prompting, the Balrog would be sitting in the corner after the bell rang.

The Witch-King is another matter, having an extended resume of accomplishments pre and post wraithdom.

Some sort of evidence would definitely help the validity of this opinion.
So that prior physical raiment is equivalent to being discarnate? It's a stretch that I have problems agreeing with.
Nice. First it is unqualified (with which I agree), now, it equals general power level. Well.... maybe. Greatest of the eldar remains an unqualified label and using it one way or the other, just because it suits in one particular debate, is an argument "from ignorance", a fallacy. We don't know what exactly Tolkien meant by it, so we can't use it as we see fit.
Hm... though the balrog may not seek to start a battle if it implies leaving his "safe zone", I doubt he would be unwilling to continue one, or start one on his own turf.

Am I misreading the point? The Witch-King was vanquished yet Frodo still held the Ring.

So you agree that you really gots to wind the Roggies up to get them to fight.

If Gandalf's words are true, then his state was likely temporary and the WK would have been redressed eventually.
Hm, if you mean provoking him, I guess it is one way. If all this would go down in Moria, I don't see any problem. If he was challenged to come outside, he may have some issues :D.

It's not a stretch at all. Ealar who are capable of changing shape are obviously not bound to one physical shape, and are therefore still fundamentally discarnate. They could drop the shape altogether and function just fine as spirits, as they were originally created. Perhaps there are degrees of incarnation, where shapechanging is still possible but not total reversion to incorporeal existence, but this is speculation. In Sauron's case, he can still change his appearance until his "death" in Numenor, after which he is bound to one specific shape. This is incarnation.

Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about. I am using the expression exactly as I have always used it, and exactly as I understand it to be used by Tolkien. You're the one who called it "general" in your previous post. Are you saying it does not refer to power level? Because the term definitely does sometimes, and if it remains unqualified, we have to assume Tolkien means the same thing when using it in reference to Galadriel as he meant when he used it to describe Sauron's status among Morgoth's servants. In both cases it is unqualified, so in both cases its meaning must be considered all-inclusive.

It's debatable. The point, however, is that Sauron is unaffected by the Witch-King's death (though perhaps he felt it), and therefore the relationship between the two is obviously not the same as Sauron's connection to his Ring.

That may be so. In my opinion, we cannot equate the potential to return to a purely spirit state with the state itself. Various abilities of the ealar, such as transmission of thought, are affected when assuming shapes.
I am not completely sure what you mean by all-inclusive. Anyway, the problem with "greatest" is that it may include factors which do not relate to power and which might compensate for any difference between one of the greatest's power and Glorfindel's. Also, Glorfindel not being mentioned among the greatest may simply be due to the fact that he may have returned too late to Middle Earth (1200 SA, 1600 SA - or in the TA), to be included there, even though he may have qualified from a power point of view.
I believe that the WK's "resilience" is a sufficient motivation for Sauron to invest in him, in the light of your initial argument. Also, the effect on Sauron may have occurred during the transfer of power (which I believe would be somewhat irreversible, unlike with the ring), which would explain why the WK's fall left Sauron unaffected at that time.

I cannot believe the mods did not delete this post. I think it is time to unleash a taste of Gandalf's staff on some naughty Hobbits out there!:eek::rolleyes:

it made me 'lol' to be honest sir. Theres nothing wrong with a bit of humor! :D

In the same spot where a balrog once fought the Witchking: adjacent to the communal outhouse by the cottage in Crickhallow (hence its geographical significance in The Lord of the Rings).

P.S. Look, Mansun, I don't know why you are so up-in-arms regarding this. It's not like the original premise of the thread was anything more than fanciful conjecture. It is rather like any such Morgoth vs Sauron vs Smaug vs WitchKing post. Given the fact that Tolkien infers that the greatest foes of the Free Peoples (and that would be Morgoth, Sauron, Smaug, et al) were most likely to work in tandem against the West and not against each other, the discussions along this line are merely idle banter. The only record of such in-fighting occurs amongst the degenerate orcs, who had no real conception of their leaders' grand schemes, or perhaps the renegade Saruman, who, coveting the Ring, rebelled against his original allies and betrayed Sauron as well.

Morthoron, thanks for steering us back towards the topic of this thread.

Please continue discussion of 'The Balrog vs The Witch King' here. :smokin:

Legolas, please stop doing deals with Morthoron with regards to favouritism. Mods are not so mighty yet that they are above legislation and the rights of posters.

Paranoid much? This isn't the first time you've complained about some conspiracy against you (as if you rated to have a conspiracy centered around you). But here's a thing I've learned from Eco's Foucault's Pendulum: If I tell you in earnest there's no conspiracy, you'll believe even more strongly that there is some great, dark plot to rend the very fabric of your being. That is manner in which the human mind tries to make sense out of its own deficiencies.

So, rather than waste my time trying to convince you, I shall only say I have never spoken to Legolas, sent him/her pm's, nor was I even aware that there was indeed a mod named Legolas. In addition, I shall no longer reply to your posts, as better discussions can be had elsewhere with less...drama.

You two need to stop talking to one another and get back to discussing the topic.

Do we posters have rights? Is there legislation? Wow, I always thought that the Downs were plutocratic, being run by mods and people-in-control...

Does this mean we can elect a parliament of peers to run the site? Ooh! Ooh! We could vote on things!...

(the above post was entirely sarcastic, although the author believes the idea has a miniscule amount of merit)

Err... Gandalf? But then again, no-one except Cirdan knew exactly what he was.

Yes, without Sauron he's just a mortal, however powerful and sorcerous (is that a word?). I think he still has the Gift of Men, however long it takes to reach him. A Maia is a Maia and cannot be truly killed- ever. Even an elf can't, so what makes anyone think a mere man, however powerful, could match a Maia.

Ecthel, Welcome to the Downs! That image takes a bit to download; maybe you can give us some information regarding the same to mull over while we wait.

Echtel, welcome!

What a great picture - awesome!!!
Is it your own drawing? If so, congratulations, you are a fine artist!

Yes, welcome to the Downs Ecthel.

And that is a picture to be proud of.

~~~~~~~~
I'd say sorcerous is a word. What is 'Gift of Men'? In RTK Gandalf says, and I'm paraphrasing, "They called me the great pilgrim, I've lived three hundred lives of men and find now that I have no time."

I've barely read anything on this site in relation to its mass of information. This post is my ignoring the shallow end of the pool. What is the general consensus of the interpretation of the above quote, or any-one individual who might want to chime in with their two cents? I'm only curious about the deep end. Going back to the shallows now. Gaia mi madre, Poseidon mi padre, who 'm I? Just a riddle for fun.

I don't think there's anything mysterious about what Gandalf says, really. In other words, He's always had plenty of time and suddenly he's in a dire rush to prevent catastrophe.

Death!:eek:


The quote is from the film The Two Towers:

I'm not sure what you're asking, though.


Hi, Antaeus.

If memory serves, Sauron was basically Morgoth's number two man (or rather, Maia). If that is true, that would mean the Balrog would be Sauron's servent.

As far as I remember, it was not Sauron, but Gothmog the Balrog who was head of Morgoth's army. So who of the two was Morgoth's second remains a question.

Also we don't know if Sauron had been friends with Gothmog and other balrogs back in the First Age. They might have been bitter rivals.

I am not sure that Sauron himself would fare well if pitted one to one against a Balrog, even the Moria one, much less Gothmog. In the Third Age Sauron was fully incarnated, even self-reincarnated (twice) and that weakens a Maia. The Balrog was likely still a shape-shifter. Sauron might have won, but it would cost him dear.

The Witch-King likely knew exactly what Gandalf was. He had a long experience of observing the Maia Sauron at close quarters.;) Here is also this quote from "The Hunt for the Ring": The Witch-King had no idea that the One Ring was about to be unmade. While the Ring existed and the Nine Rings had power, the Gift of Men was not available to the Nazgul. If killed, they would likely become powerless spirits without a hroa, roaming Middle-Earth but unable to interact with the World of Light in any way - and that until the Rings existed. Basically it would be the same fate as for the Balrog or another wayward Maia when it is killed - eternal misery.
Nothing to look forward to, thus the Witch-King must have been much more reluctant to die than any mortal Man. He never fought against a stronger opponent when he could help it.

As for mortal Men, they were not as weak as some tend to think. Three Men killed a dragon (Turin, Fram and Bard), yet we know of no elf who had achieved the same. Beren fought Celegorm and Curufin and was in Angband, there were Turin, Tuor Elendil... but you know the story.

The Witch-King still had the same body he was born with. Albeit invisible, he had the high stature and strong muscles of a High Numenorean lord - and those were quite similar to Elves:
On the plus side he had his sorcery, lots of experience, sharp senses and extra-endurence of a wraith. On the minus side he had his fear of fire (important against a Balrog) and his fear of death.
I would say he had some chances against the Balrog - at least to make it even.;)

Um... Gordis... what's a Barlog?

Well, sorry, I often tend to type rl instead of lr . Another typical mistake of mine is "Erlond":D - I really don't know why I do this, but I do, if I don't pay enough attention. I will go and correct the post above - it looks funny indeed.

~~~~~

I wish I had read the books. I watch the movies everytime they come on. I always read for escape and that ended long ago. I find it a shame that I can't sit down with a book anymore. Now its just study all the time. Even when I purchase books, I go online to read them. I'm a bit rediculous that way. I think I read on this forum that Gandalf is a maia, so my question is now not relavent. I like effortless grace, thanks for the reply.

Balrog vx WK
 

If the Witch King had to fight a Balrog I would think that the Balrog would win. I don't believe the WK would ever consider doing such a foolish thing but if he had to the Balrog would have a better chance of winning. No man can kill the WK but that leaves a lot of things that can. I always wondered why elves hadn't killed the WK....because they don't belong to the race of men....or if it was refering to a man same thing...

Because they didn't have enough guts for it?;)

No, because the Witch-King ran and hid.

That's right, he saw Glorfindel coming and he blew town...

Also, in my opinion some have misread the encounter between the Witch King and Gandalf in the books (Peter Jackson for sure)--I think the WK decided to postpone the matchup. Hearing the horns of Rohan is not much of a reason to leave...

Yes, that is the reason why Glorfindel didn't kill him, obloquy. But you know quite well that Glorfindel was no average Elf. Actually, the reincarnated Elf was quite unique - closer to Maiar in strength.

In Rivendell there were but few who could openly ride against the nazgul - most likely only three (see Glorfindel's words explaining his presence on the Great Road to Aragorn).

The rest of the Elves were hardly more capable than a Man to withstand a nazgul.
At least none had tried:

Indeed, but it is still a reason, an excuse.
The WK always hated to put his life in danger - and not because of cowardice, as I have tried to explain in my previous post:
Had he been on his own, he would never have dared to oppose the reincarnated White Wizard, a powerful Maia, in one-to-one duel. But he was not on his own at the Gates of Minas Tirith - there is no doubt that Sauron was watching him like a hawk. He must have known he was overmatched, but he needed an excuse to leave - and Rohan had provided it. He feared death, but he feared Sauron's wrath more.

His reincarnation was relatively unique, but his power was not. Note that he is still never spoken of as one of the greatest of the Eldar. Gandalf was not overly impressed when he explained that Frodo had seen "an Elf lord revealed in his wrath." In any case, the distinction you've drawn between Glorfindel and "the Elves" is a false one: if Glorfindel had slain the Witch-King it would not be unacceptable to say "the Elves killed the Witch-King," so in this case it is also rightly said that the Witch-King fled from the Elves. He did flee specifically from Glorfindel, but Glorfindel was not the most powerful of the Eldar remaining.

The Witch King's entire army was destroyed, I don't think that gives him much reason to stay.