Re: Mac's comment about Nerwen - I thought that perhaps he was trying to confuse Persephone into picking Nerwen, who I doubted (and figured Mac doubted, since he didn't try to get her lynched) was actually Hades. I didn't really think a wolf would have made the comment Nerwen did, as it seemed too risky. But Mac, feel free to correct me - though, if you say I'm wrong, I may end up suspecting you, too. ;)

Now there is actually a huge difference in suspecting Zeus and Hera calling each other on the thread (which is not a thing they would need to do as they already know each other) than suspecting that Hades is trying to send a message to Persephone (which would make a lot of sense as the latter really needs to find the former for their love to become true).

Now as suspicions go on Day1 I find it perfectly justified to suspect Nerwen for being Hades and searching for Persephone, but the way Mac states it in a most vague way - praising Wilwa's notice of it, saying it's "definitively deliberate" and not a slip - but that it doesn't make sense raises my eyebrows considerably. What were you trying to say? Downplay Nerwen's possible guilt by bringing the idea to the fore? That would be bold and not smart. But Kath's defence of Mac looks odd as well. Just as Mac manages to say Boro's remarks were deliberate and not slips but hints, she says Mac meant they were not hints... Oh my. There's something fishy in here but it's hard to say what. Too many possibilities of which most don't make sense (I see I'm following Mac's and Greenie's reasoning here :rolleyes:)

write the word highlight instead of B to both ends...

As we're all throwing out our suspicions of what Nerwen's role is based on her slip, may I just say that no one's suggested she might be Persephone, trying to find Hades? This is my current theory, anyways. I'd be up for lynching Nerwen, because if Persephone dies, so does Wolf!Hades - and I think Nerwen might be Persephone. If we don't come up with a wolf, that's where my vote will probably go.

Hades already knows who Persephone is so there's no need for Persephone to get into the risky bussiness of hinting her role to Hades. It's the task of Hades to give hints to Persephone who s/he is.

And unlike Rikae seems to think, I think it perfectly probable that the wolf-lovers would try to attract their lovers on Day1 to finalise their love asap and make them so much stronger! To wolf-lovers it is a catastrophic situation as long as their innocent part has not recognized them: it means their death actually if the other one dies. With the lover found they have many more options to win and at least to live. So there is some real pressure and urgency in the wolves trying to find their lovers.

Maybe Nerwen thought she saw someone else hinting and was trying to confirm her suspicion, or maybe she just wanted him to be sure she was paying attention. Maybe she even threw it out in hopes that Hades would comment on it, just like we're all doing. I'll go back and see if there was anything she could have been responding to, trying to confirm a suspected hint.

On second look, this was her first post, and it was joking banter. Hades was not refering to the person, but the place. I do think we've blown this way out of porportion. I take back my earlier suspicion. Sorry, Nerwen.

Nog, I wasn't saying I didn't think it was possible that the wolves would hint, but that I thought that particular comment looked too risky.

Actually, though, on second thought, it may have seemed more risky purely due to the fact that Mac pointed it out. When I first read it, I saw it as in-character flavor and nothing more, so it may be that, objectively speaking, it wasn't that risky after all.

EDIT: X'd with Loslote. Maybe, but joking banter can conceal hints, too.

Just a comment now, more later.

I just skimmed some points against me. I did not claim that Boro is Zeus. My theory is that Boro dropped the name Zeus a few times to indicate that he is a lover, too, one of the three that need to find theirs. Having one or two lovers waste their first pick is bad, but worth having one be right with their first pick.

Greenie, I didn't really suspect Nerwen yet because I only made the comment that what I said about Boro can apply to her just as well.

The lovers are trying to find each other - we have to look for hints.

A correction to the earlier post. I checked the rules and realised there are such different variations as to who knows who with the lover-pairs.

So. If someone else has also missed those let me remind you of our situation - especially in eye of finding someone looking for a mate or signalling others.

Zeus and Hera know each other and may PM so there is no need of sending messages of identification between the two.

With Hades and Persephone, Hades know who Persephone is but she doesn't know him. So Hades should try to send a hint. Interestingly the only possible hint found thus far is about Hades...

Neither Hephaistos or Aphrodite know each others identity so they'd both like to know it. So both need to make hints.

Ares is the loner wolf, but then there is something I had totally forgotten and it made me think of a post I wondered while reading through earlier... well, there's Dionysos the cursed. What Thanatos the mod said: And here's something interesting: I'm quite sure the wolves have read the rules much more closer than we have so there's no risk of letting them know this. They have most probably read this already and notified it.

Also it would make sense of Eonwë's initial "wolf!" -post...

But what to do with him, that's another question.

X'd with Mac

Nog makes good points about Eönwë. His remark about Dionysus, which I took as a throw-away at the time, wouldn't seem to have any innocent context (innocent, as in meaningless) here. Why not just say "I'm ill"?
I'm not sure what to do based on that, either though. I'd like to hear what steve has to say about it.

If Boro is part of one of the other lover pairs, why would he think name-dropping Zeus might lead his unknown counterpart to him? :confused:

Well, if we'll be able to tell when the cursed is turned, we can always lynch Eonwe - though "Dionysus poisoned me" reads to me like "I had too much to drink." :D

Admin thread says:

So if the Cursed is killed before being turned, I read that as saying they'll be revealed as an ordo at the time.
And that's possible about the Dionysus / wine connection, but steve is only what, 16? :eek:

The Steve-slip is an interesting thing. It seems a little bit too bold unless he wants to be lynched so he isn't night-killed. Hmmm it bears close watching and I will definitely be waiting for that explanation as long as it doesn't come too late in the Day.

Welcome the pro crime-investigator! :) *still reading through the thread to find any hints, back soon*

X'd with Nienna

Allied with Zeus = allied with wolves, I suppose. Though Boro's explanation looks pretty honest to me.

Actually, right now I find myself more suspicious of the people who think they see hints everywhere - Wilwa, Mac, Nog - than of the people who are supposed to be doing the hinting. Eonwe's alleged hint sounds the most plausible, but in that case, it may just as well be a hint to the village (letting us know to lynch him if he's turned) as to the wolves. Nerwen's is indeed really embedded in the banter, but could still be something - but Boro's looks more like what he says it is than anything else to me.

For the record, I'm anti-crime. ;)

The problem for Dionysos actually is, how to get the wolves to pick him - for the wolf-role sure is what most would go for... So he has to do something to get their eyes on him - and the wolves would love an added one into their numbers as well, mind you.

I've drinken and I'm not 16. It's where I get my good looks from. :) Though I'm not French. Though I wouldn't drink that much, true. Dionyses doesn't have a lover. So is Eönwë hinting that he's Dionyses?

Xed with everyone since 134

:D

That's not what I meant. I mean, if the cursed is turned during the night, will the narration indicate this? If so, we can just lynch Eonwe after the cursed is turned, if he is.
Is he? Didn't know that. I believe in the UK the drinking age is 18...

Allied with Hera would be allied with wolves, not allied with Zeus.

But other than that - as I've said already - I agree with you on finding those who suspect Boro more suspicious than Boro himself. That's one of the "hints" that don't make sense as hints - unlike Nerwen's and Eonwë's which make sense.

But are they enough or should someone be lynched on those? That's another matter (on which I myself need to make a decision rather sooner than later - looking at the clock).

I don't know the answer to that. If there's no kill and we aren't told the reason why, it would make it bloody hard to figure out. Was the Cursed found? Did the Ranger or Guardian Hunter block it? I'll ask on the Admin Thread.

Meta, I know. I remember from the birthday thread.

x/d with Nog

This reminds me of a discussion we had in another game - and I think Steve was there too. Some of us would feel obliged, as a cursed villager, to make ourselves known so that the village could lynch us if turned.

If Steve is the cursed, chances are the wolves won't turn him now, anyway, since he'd be toast immediately and they'd probably rather get rid of an innocent during the night than turn a cursed who will die the next day. So really, he helped the village whether he intended to or not.

Incidentally, because of the above, I tend to think there isn't much point in a cursed knowing they're cursed. Either they aren't really playing as an ordo when they technically are, or they don't get to play as a wolf if turned.

That's okay. I realise now that the usual themed Day One bantering was possibly ill-advised in this game, because pretty much anything you can say relates to one of the roles. I hadn't got my head around that at that stage.

I can't think of another explanation for Steve's comment. I'd say the only thing we can do is leave him be until we have reason to think he's been turned. As of now, he counts for the innocents. Later in the game, it'll be really important to have as many innocents as possible.

As a side note, if the Ranger or Hunting Guardian protect the Cursed from a wolf attack, they're not Turned, are they? So we could, theoretically, keep Steve on our side as long as we wanted.

Or didn't think anyone would notice it as you couldn't know people would start focusing on that later on the Day? :)

I went through the thread - not close reading but skimming it through - to find any hints about Hades (death), Hephaistos (forging, smiths), Aphrodite (love) or Dionysos (drinking) and sadly found only those that have been already mentioned, mainly Eonwë's and Nerwen's comments. So the lovers have been pretty careful.

Well, there is one good side to this: after all this talk and searching for hints they need to be much more careful in the future and the task of the lovers finding their mates will be harder - which reduces their power considerably as most their effects take place only after they have found one another.

Well, it could be just flavour. It seems a pretty over-the-top way of hinting, really.

However, if he is Dionysus trying to hint to the wolves, that means he's decided to turn cobbler on us.

Edit:X'd with Nogrod.

Unless, of course, he's trying to clue us in because he's decided he wants to be good.

But if he's turned he can't be good. And if that was indeed a hint, he had to have known the wolves could pick up on it as easily as innocents.

It's funny how toDay's debates can be divided up so nicely. :)


The initial stage:

(Almost) only bantering:
Loslote, BG, Eonwe, Autume (her comment about the usefulness of Day1 and then admitting that she forgot you can lynch people looks bad)

phantom
doing phantommy things, less annoying than usual.

Nerwen
drops the name Hades in her first post, amidst banter. Not much helpfulness after it

Boro
talks about Zeus. I remember Mith's opera-themed game, where he hinted to the wolves that he's the cobbler in his first post in a similar manner.

Wilwa
sensible, but Wilwolf is sensible, too, so I'm wary. Certainly not going to vote her toDay, though.

Foley
I don't remember her style, to be honest. She seems earnest in her attempt to contribute, so I'm fine with her for now.

Rikae
is hard to read

Inzil
not sure, but vaguely bad feeling

Feel fine:
Lalaith, Greenie, Nogrod

Barely there:
Sally, Kath, Keeper of Mirandir


The "let's talk about roles"-stage

I really dislike excessive role and rule discussion. It enables wolves to participate without actually doing anything while innocents are occupied with something other than finding them.

People getting themselves dragged into lovers/seers/whatnot discussion:
phantom, Foley, Wilwa, Nog, Nerwen, Inzil, Eonwe, Rikae, Nienna, Loslote.

Out of these, Nerwen, Inzil, Nienna and Loslote seem most suspicious, since they're staying around the fringes and/or haven't contributed much else otherwise.


The "let's talk about people's hints"-stage

Greenie
List of people. I'd like to know why Lottie and Nerwen seem innocent to her. "a bit less calculating" is kind of vague. She votes me since I'm the only one she has anything on, which is fair, but it still seems foul to me. Suspecting her to be Persephone (defends Nerwen, who could be Hades, votes me over my point against Nerwen) at this point would go too far, but it's tempting.

Kath
defends me, which is nice. :) She misunderstands me, too, but maybe that's because I really wasn't clear enough in my first post.

Boro
not buying his Zeus-explanation yet. Seen him do it before.

Nogrod
throws himself into the Zeus affair heads first and follows Greenie's reasons. I don't get a suspicious feel. Then he brings up Eonwe, which is fair, but he keeps on talking about him, even though there's no way we are going to lynch a possible cursed toDay. He also keeps on misunderstanding my point against Boro, even though Rikae explained it plainly again.

Autume
passive => suspicious

Lalaith
votes Boro, which might come to haunt her should we find Boro innocent, especially since she didn't have any case against him. That's why she's probably not evil, since they would have been more careful who to vote randomly.

Rikae
hm, tricking Persephone would have been a good idea, too, in hindsight :D
Seems very innocent in this part.

Loslote
is a bit confusing and back-and-forth with her opinion on Nerwen.

Inzil
still have a bad feeling: only talks about Eonwe.

Nienna
her only post here is about Eonwe, too.

Nerwen
I don't buy her explanation either.

Okay so three pages later, I'm pretty thoroughly confused (but what else is new) soo as per usual I'm just going to start talking.

I really don't see Boro's Zeus comment and Nerwen's Hades one as slips or hints of any kind. It's Day 1 of a Greek god themed game. There is nothing suspicious about working in banter, especially in the first few posts (which I think those were).

And now I shall go make myself a stupidly detailed cheatsheet chart of all the roles because that's what's been confusing me the most. I shall return!

I think it'd be good for Eonwe to comment on this. I personally am leaning towards him being innocent at this point. However am going to be keeping my eye on him.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who got confused! :cool: And a cheat sheet chart sounds like a really good idea. I think I might have to make myself one too. :smokin:

Well then.

I'm pretty sure Eonwë is the cursed villager and he wishes to be a wolf.

Do you remember his first post
And then there is the Dionysos-stuff.

Both scream "see who I am wolves!" to me. So he went all he could trying to get their attention and to make him their target.

The problem is as the rules say: That seems to me quite clear. Dionysos knows about his role and can have a mindset of a wannabe-wolf (which to me seems to be the case) - and I share my feeling with Rikae here that this is not a good practise as it makes the cursed most likely into a cobbler from the beginning of the game (there are different cursed to be sure, but that's the average reaction).

Also, there is no way we can tell if the cursed has been turned or not until the end of the game. If there is no kill at one Night we might suspect it but we couldn't be sure about that because of possible saves by the rangers. So Dionysos is a threat to the end of the game and after all this row it's pretty likely that if Eonwë isn't a wolf they will try him anyway. So it's just how probable we think his role as Dionysos is?

Some words on others in a moment, a vote, and then to sleep...

A list??
 

Wilwa - seems to be helpful and all that. Not going to vote her; talkative people are awesome.

Kath - haven't gotten a sense of her yet, but not going to vote for her because I've never played with her before.

Boro - not ringing many bells, so probably won't vote for him toDay.

Keepandir of Dol Mira - not much to go on.

Zil - seems to be pretty innocent. Not going to vote for him toDay.

BeiGei - looks pretty normal. Probably won't vote for her toDay.

Lottie - is awesome, like normal. Not going to vote for her toDay.

Eonwe - possible Cursed; probably won't vote for him toDay because he's probably not a wolf.

Nienna - has been pretty quiet. Possibly submarine; possibly busy. Probably won't vote for her toDay.

Nerwen - seems pretty innocent. Probably won't vote for her toDay.

Folwren - not getting much of a sense for her, either, but again, have never played with her and thus will not vote for her.

Tum - I have no idea. Possible submarine. Might vote for her toDay, because of her quietness and because of her lack of contribution when she does post.

Lalaith - see Kath and Foley.

Greenie - seems pretty innocent, but I'm not at all sure of anything about her. Probably won't vote her, though.

Rikae - makes sense and seems like normal Rikae. Won't vote for her toDay.

Shasta - he exists??

Mac - feels slightly off in all his posts, and isn't really making many helpful posts. Might vote for him.

Nog - makes sense, makes good points, is being logical, not going to vote for him toDay.

Phantom - I have no idea. Is definitely contributing. :rolleyes: I've never played with him, so I'm not going to vote him toDay.

Sally - haven't seen anything really off, so probably won't vote for her toDay.

So...Mac or Tum are likely to get my vote toDay. Pretty much no one else.

I thought I'd better go back and see how all the Boro's-Zeus-hints business got stearted, since it all seemed kind of weird, so:


Boro posts, then:



So, Wilwa just seems confused by Boro's remark, and gives him an explanation of the roles. Then:



So, Steve seems to interpret Boro's remark as Boro later explained it, and then go on to agree with Wilwa on why it's confusing due to the roles.



So now Wilwa seems to be pushing for an explanation a bit, at least for “more action.” Well, stirring the pot is a noble enough enterprise...



So, Phantom seems to read Boro as a cursed or lover hinting to the wolves... at least, that's how I read it.



The first is what I really thought; the second, as the smiley indicates, is lighthearted and directed at Phantom.



So Wilwa seems content...



But now Lalaith is reading into it.



And Nerwen - I can't tell if she's trying to turn up suspicion on Boro a notch, or just clarifying. Considering the possible hinting she may have done, it's interesting.



And yeah. At this point it all dissolves in a clarification of the roles I'd rather not go through again. It seems, though, that Phantom started things, and Lalaith wound them up again when they were running down. Lalaith seems to be coming into it at a late point wanting clarification, but Phantom seems to have given it some thought before posting what he did, so I'd be interested in hearing what his intentions were.


Also, Loslote, Inzil and Nerwen, I already pointed all that (regarding Steve's loyalties) out. He could be hinting to the wolves because he wants to be turned. He could be hinting to the village because he *doesn't* want to be turned, or wants to be lynched if turned. Either way, he's unlikely to be turned now, and if there is a no-kill and we don't have reason to think it's a ranger save, we can lynch him. He can't actually play as a cobbler, though - goes against his role.

EDIT: X'd with Loslote

Macalaure...
 

The Lovers and the false Seer are surely the two biggest complications of this game, not to mention the fact that the former could potentially lead us to their wolf-counterparts. Yet, you don't want them talked about?

Then there's this sequence:

So there's two little oddities here:

1. It looks like Mac starts to suspect me only after being suspected himself for not doing so.

2. Um... what does he think Boro was trying to accomplish, exactly? Plus, he seems to have come up with his theory (which I don't understand anyway) after the event.

EDIT:X'd since Nogrod.

Are you sure? Where did you get this?